6:46 a.m.
It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix
<https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-Abandonwa...
"The last major release of the X.Org Server was in May 2018 but don't
expect the long-awaited X.Org Server 1.21
<https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=search&q=X.Org+Server+1.21> to
actually be released anytime soon.
This should hardly be surprising but a prominent Intel open-source
developer has conceded that the X.Org Server is pretty much "abandonware"
with Wayland being the future. This comes as X.Org Server development hits
a nearly two decade low
<https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=X.Org-Server-2019...;,
the X.Org Server is well off its six month release regiment in not seeing a
major release in over two years, and no one is stepping up to manage the
1.21 release."
One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
relevant. It has been clear for some time that X Org was not getting much
attention, but Wayland has been around for a while and still many drivers
(Wacom professional drawing tablets) require X (and don't work with
X-Wayland). An additional problem is that developers with decades of X11
experience are aging out.
The Phoronix post has 100's comments, so far I haven't seen them degenerate
to politics.
--
George N. White III
8:42 a.m.
George N. White III kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 13.46:
It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix
<https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-Abandonwa...
... > Wayland has been around for a while and still many
drivers (Wacom professional drawing tablets) require X (and don't work
with X-Wayland).
Sad if true. I happen to use a Wacom tablet, and as far as I know, one
still cannot do a screen capture with OBS. I need both of these to work
before I can switch to Wayland.
--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
9:03 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:42:09 +0200
Matti Pulkkinen wrote:
Sad if true.
Nah, look at it this way: If it is abandoned, it won't be
getting scads of gratuitous changes for no reason like
everything else in linux gets all the time :-).
The last time I checked, I couldn't do things like map
buttons on my trackball to enable drag lock on wayland.
Maybe if I bought a kensington expert mouse trackball
for some wayland developers they would figure out how
utterly impossible it is to use without drag lock :-).
11:10 a.m.
Tom Horsley kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 16.03:
On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:42:09 +0200
Matti Pulkkinen wrote:
> Sad if true.
Nah, look at it this way: If it is abandoned, it won't be
getting scads of gratuitous changes for no reason like
everything else in linux gets all the time :-).
But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change around
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the
most minimal security updates.
--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
11:12 a.m.
Matti Pulkkinen kirjoitti 26.10.2020 klo 18.10:
But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change
around
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the
most minimal security updates.
Oops, sorry about that. I accidentally sent this before meaning to, but
I think you get the idea anyway, even with the poor grammar.
--
Terveisin / Regards,
Matti Pulkkinen
12:42 p.m.
On 10/26/20 10:10 AM, Matti Pulkkinen wrote:
But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change
around
Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while more
and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not even to
mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive even the
most minimal security updates.
And more and more of us will be forced to use Gnome whether we want to
or not because it's the only thing that works with Wayland.
12:27 a.m.
On 10/26/20 10:42 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 10/26/20 10:10 AM, Matti Pulkkinen wrote:
> But there's a chance that, over time, the ecosystem will change around
> Xorg, and gradually fewer and fewer things will work on Xorg, while
> more and more things will require the use of Wayland. And that's not
> even to mention that it seems unlikely for abandonware would receive
> even the most minimal security updates.
And more and more of us will be forced to use Gnome whether we want to
or not because it's the only thing that works with Wayland.
I realize that you really don't like Gnome for some reason, but there's
no reason to be making false claims like that. Aside from the various
smaller window managers that either already support Wayland or are
adding support, there's even a filed Fedora Change to make Wayland the
default for KDE.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma
1:21 a.m.
On 28/10/2020 13:27, Samuel Sieb wrote:
I realize that you really don't like Gnome for some reason, but
there's no reason to be making false claims like that. Aside from the various smaller
window managers that either already support Wayland or are adding support, there's
even a filed Fedora Change to make Wayland the default for KDE.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma
Thanks for that link.
I've been dreading the switch to wayland in KDE since my previous attempts to use it
failed miserably.
I need to use the nVidia drivers as nouveau doesn't play nice with my GPU. But the
section addressing
proprietary drivers gives me hope.
---
The key to getting good answers is to ask good questions.
7:02 a.m.
On 28/10/20 5:21 pm, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 28/10/2020 13:27, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> I realize that you really don't like Gnome for some reason, but
> there's no reason to be making false claims like that. Aside from
> the various smaller window managers that either already support
> Wayland or are adding support, there's even a filed Fedora Change to
> make Wayland the default for KDE.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma
Thanks for that link.
I've been dreading the switch to wayland in KDE since my previous
attempts to use it failed miserably.
I need to use the nVidia drivers as nouveau doesn't play nice with my
GPU. But the section addressing
proprietary drivers gives me hope.
I hope KDE does not move to Wayland unless
Wayland is reworked. My
experience with Wayland in Gnome with Fedora running in a Windows hosted
Virtualbox VM is that it does not scale to 4K properly (there a
resolution less than 4K where the failure starts but I haven't worked
out yet exactly what the resolution is), and this scaling issue happens
with Ubuntu and also with Megaeia.
regards,
Steve
---
The key to getting good answers is to ask good questions.
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3:21 a.m.
On 2020-10-28 06:27, Samuel Sieb wrote:
I realize that you really don't like Gnome for some reason, but
there's no reason to be making false claims like that. Aside from the various smaller
window managers that either already support Wayland or are adding support, there's
even a filed Fedora Change to make Wayland the default for KDE.
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma
As regards
KDE+Wayland change, wouldn't be useful to also include a link to
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
in the Documentation section of that Fedora Change?
--
Roberto Ragusa mail at robertoragusa.it
3:58 a.m.
On 10/28/20 1:21 AM, Roberto Ragusa wrote:
On 2020-10-28 06:27, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> I realize that you really don't like Gnome for some reason, but
> there's no reason to be making false claims like that. Aside from the
> various smaller window managers that either already support Wayland or
> are adding support, there's even a filed Fedora Change to make Wayland
> the default for KDE.
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma
As regards KDE+Wayland change, wouldn't be useful to also include a link to
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers
in the Documentation section of that Fedora Change?
That page was mentioned in the discussion, I thought someone was going
to add it.
2:14 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:46:00 -0300
"George N. White III" <gnwiii(a)gmail.com> wrote:
One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
relevant.
What this means is that there were 30+ years of corner cases handled in
the code. Those won't be handled in Wayland for a long time, if ever.
When Wayland has its own stack of such corner cases, it will then be
bloated and unmaintainable, and the cycle will start again with a new
piece of software.
If X runs on a single user system with no internet facing services,
security exploits are probably not a breaker. It will be the change in
the abis and apis as the underlying system evolves that will break it.
4:55 p.m.
George N. White III writes:
<URL:https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=XServer-
Abandonware>It's Time To Admit It: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware - Phoronix
I'm subscribed to the x.org mailing list. It's getting a steady trickle of
mailing list traffic, and, from the looks of it, prompt replies from
maintainers and/or contributors.
X.org is a mature, stable product. Barring a completely new version of X11
popping out somewhere, and new hardware coming out, there's really not much
to do with it.
12:03 a.m.
On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
relevant.
Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
implemented.
This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS projects
that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
Don't let those people near the kernel code.
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC 2020 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
9:58 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 03:33:58PM +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> relevant.
Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
implemented.
This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS projects
that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
Don't let those people near the kernel code.
X11 is *old* and there is a lot of complexity involved, particularly
when it comes to compositing libraries. Wayland takes the X server out
of the conversation, which can improve security and efficiency, and
also makes implimentation simpler.
--
Jonathan Billings <billings(a)negate.org>
10:37 a.m.
On Tue, 2020-10-27 at 10:58 -0400, Jonathan Billings wrote:
X11 is *old* and there is a lot of complexity involved, particularly
when it comes to compositing libraries. Wayland takes the X server
out of the conversation, which can improve security and efficiency,
and also makes implimentation simpler.
And in doing so, breaks everything that needed the X server.
Baby, bathwater, meet window...
--
uname -rsvp
Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC 2020 x86_64
Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
11:56 a.m.
You might take a look at:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=x_wayland_situati...
It's 7 years old at this point, but all the things it says about X are
still true. In some cases it makes sense to fix up something old, but in
other cases like this it really does make sense to make something new.
kevin
11:24 a.m.
On Tue, 2020-10-27 at 10:58 -0400, Jonathan Billings wrote:
snip.
X11 is *old* and there is a lot of complexity involved, particularly
when it comes to compositing libraries. Wayland takes the X server
out
of the conversation, which can improve security and efficiency, and
also makes implimentation simpler.
--
Jonathan Billings <billings(a)negate.org>
Heh. I'm showing my age here, but when I was a student in medical
school back in the days of mainframes, I was asked to write a database
program to keep track of the medical school curriculum. Basically, it
looked at what professor in what course was lecturing on what subject
to see what overlaps there were (e.g. both Physiology profs and
Endocrine profs lecturing on diabetes).
So, I wrote this thing in the only language available to me at the time
-- FORTRAN, and we ran it on a Sigma machine.
I maintained it for a couple of years, but graduated from medical
school and went on to my residency. About six years later, I got a
call from some students at my old medical school saying they had been
tasked with setting up a similar program, and had a copy of my source
code -- though of course there were no Sigmas around. They said that
they weren't all that familiar with FORTRAN, but were given this as an
examplar.
I laughed and told them the last thing they wanted to do was to try to
decode and refactor a zillion lines of FORTRAN when they didn't know
the language well to start with. Besides, there were a bunch of
newfangled database programs they could buy for much less money than
trying to refactor what I did -- by this time there was dBase, FoxPro,
etc. With all these new database programs, they could set up their
system in a couple of hours and be running on a PC for a tenth of the
cost and a hundredth of the effort.
Sometimes it's not always the best idea to keep refactoring old
stuff...
billo
7:01 p.m.
Jonathan Billings writes:
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 03:33:58PM +1030, Tim via users wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> > One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> > unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> > relevant.
>
> Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
> arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
>
> And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
> needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
> that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
> implemented.
>
> This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
> start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS projects
> that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
> never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
>
> Don't let those people near the kernel code.
X11 is *old* and there is a lot of complexity involved, particularly
when it comes to compositing libraries. Wayland takes the X server out
of the conversation, which can improve security and efficiency, and
also makes implimentation simpler.
Can you, yet, run clients through an ssh tunnel, like you can do with X? For
me, that's a killer feature.
10:25 a.m.
I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't good
enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
they simply aren't good enough developers to redo it . Act like a
developer: when your car runs badly, just melt it down and rebuild it
from scratch, that must be easier than understanding how it is broken
and fixing it.
Not sure how one believes if they cannot debug the last script/program
they wrote (or someone else did) that the new script/program will be
any different. Developers seems to believe that all previous authors
were incompetent and did things for no good reason and that they can
do a significantly better job this time so want to start over. Too
many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using a
given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:04 AM Tim via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> > One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> > unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> > relevant.
>
> Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
> arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
>
> And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
> needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
> that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
> implemented.
>
> This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
> start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS projects
> that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
> never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
>
> Don't let those people near the kernel code.
>
> --
>
> uname -rsvp
> Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC 2020 x86_64
>
> Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
> I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
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10:33 a.m.
+1
We have become throwers-away rather than fixers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgJ-Wd9hGy8
On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 at 11:25, Roger Heflin <rogerheflin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't good
enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
they simply aren't good enough developers to redo it . Act like a
developer: when your car runs badly, just melt it down and rebuild it
from scratch, that must be easier than understanding how it is broken
and fixing it.
Not sure how one believes if they cannot debug the last script/program
they wrote (or someone else did) that the new script/program will be
any different. Developers seems to believe that all previous authors
were incompetent and did things for no good reason and that they can
do a significantly better job this time so want to start over. Too
many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using a
given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:04 AM Tim via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> > One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
> > unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
> > relevant.
>
> Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot be
> arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
>
> And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
> needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being around
> that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
> implemented.
>
> This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out and
> start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS projects
> that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process and
> never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
>
> Don't let those people near the kernel code.
>
> --
>
> uname -rsvp
> Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC 2020
x86_64
>
> Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
> I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing list.
>
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
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--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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RuralTechnologies.net Linux since Red Hat 5.1, 1998
Open-source Collaboration Fedora since 2003
“No matter how cynical you become, it’s never enough to keep up.” - Lily
Tomlin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:40 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:25:26AM -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't good
enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
they simply aren't good enough developers to redo it . Act like a
developer: when your car runs badly, just melt it down and rebuild it
from scratch, that must be easier than understanding how it is broken
and fixing it.
Not sure how one believes if they cannot debug the last script/program
they wrote (or someone else did) that the new script/program will be
any different. Developers seems to believe that all previous authors
were incompetent and did things for no good reason and that they can
do a significantly better job this time so want to start over. Too
many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using a
given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
This is just FUD and ignorant of the Wayland project. Most of the
developers are current X.org developers or have worked on related code
used by X.org (input, drm, etc.). They're well aware of the current
X.org code and limitations in Wayland.
--
Jonathan Billings <billings(a)negate.org>
4:31 p.m.
Jonathan Billings wrote:
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:25:26AM -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
> I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
> the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't good
> enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
> cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
> they simply aren't good enough developers to redo it . Act like a
> developer: when your car runs badly, just melt it down and rebuild it
> from scratch, that must be easier than understanding how it is broken
> and fixing it.
>
> Not sure how one believes if they cannot debug the last script/program
> they wrote (or someone else did) that the new script/program will be
> any different. Developers seems to believe that all previous authors
> were incompetent and did things for no good reason and that they can
> do a significantly better job this time so want to start over. Too
> many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using a
> given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
> we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
This is just FUD and ignorant of the Wayland project. Most of the
developers are current X.org developers or have worked on related code
used by X.org (input, drm, etc.). They're well aware of the current
X.org code and limitations in Wayland.
Well and _painfully_ aware, I'm sure. :)
I think the car analogy in Roger's post is reasonable and
should be expanded a bit. In the case of "the car runs bad,
melt it down," it's a bad idea if the person making the
assessment is not a skilled mechanic.
But, in the case of X, as Jonathan points out, the people
making the assessment are the very mechanics who have been
keeping the car on the road for a decade or more in many
cases.
When your mechanic says "I've given her all she's got,
Captain" and tells you it's time for a new ride, that
shouldn't be so easily ridiculed as laziness or
incompetence.
As a user, I will miss many of the features X provided. But
when the folks who know a code base like Xorg's all-too-well
have determined that its design isn't suitable for a secure,
modern desktop and have been working to build a replacement,
I have a hard time believing they're just being lazy.
No truly lazy developer spends years working on a low-level
windowing system like X or Wayland.
Of course, if it is just laziness or incompetence, then it
shouldn't be hard for folks who feel that way to step in and
keep X going. That's the beauty of having the source. ;)
--
Todd
1:20 p.m.
On 10/27/20 9:25 AM, Roger Heflin wrote:
Too
many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using a
given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
Aha! The Bullwinkle Syndrome.
4:10 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 10:25:26AM -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't good
enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
I know that "they" is supposed to be programmers in general, but of course
the programmers in this case are actual, specific, very overworked and
overcommmitted, and highly passionate about free and open source software
and Fedora. All of this negativity is _personal_. Please do not bring it to
the Fedora mailing lists.
If you would like to continue maintaining X, or any other piece of software
that some else isn't interested in, I encourge you to do so. That's how this
works. And if you want to talk about how to do that constructively,
*awesome*.
Otherwise, please stop this.
--
Matthew Miller
<mattdm(a)fedoraproject.org>
Fedora Project Leader
10:50 p.m.
https://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/019/304/old.jpg
On Tue, 2020-10-27 at 10:25 -0500, Roger Heflin wrote:
I think it is simple, in my experience your assertions are right on
the money. They can't be bothered to learn it and/or they aren't
good
enough to learn it. If it is difficult for them to learn and/or they
cannot learn it then they are doomed to failure on the re-write as
they simply aren't good enough developers to redo it . Act like a
developer: when your car runs badly, just melt it down and rebuild it
from scratch, that must be easier than understanding how it is broken
and fixing it.
Not sure how one believes if they cannot debug the last
script/program
they wrote (or someone else did) that the new script/program will be
any different. Developers seems to believe that all previous
authors
were incompetent and did things for no good reason and that they can
do a significantly better job this time so want to start over. Too
many people have told me that unlike the past team that failed using
a
given process,this time we are going to do it the exact same way but
we are going to be perfect and not have the same issues and not fail.
On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:04 AM Tim via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2020-10-26 at 08:46 -0300, George N. White III wrote:
> > One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was
> > becoming
> > unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no
> > longer
> > relevant.
>
> Is it really unmaintainable, or is it that programmers just cannot
> be
> arsed to learn how to maintain someone else's code?
>
> And how does one person determine that some features are no-longer
> needed? It's quite clear that in several years of Wayland being
> around
> that various features needed by people using X have yet to be
> implemented.
>
> This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it all out
> and
> start again" is just incompetence. And you'll find several OS
> projects
> that have spent many years, repeatedly going through that process
> and
> never actually coming to any fruition because of it.
>
> Don't let those people near the kernel code.
>
> --
>
> uname -rsvp
> Linux 3.10.0-1127.19.1.el7.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue Aug 25 17:23:54 UTC
> 2020 x86_64
>
> Boilerplate: All unexpected mail to my mailbox is automatically
> deleted.
> I will only get to see the messages that are posted to the mailing
> list.
>
> _______________________________________________
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10:52 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Oct 2020, Kevin Becker wrote:
You had to quote an entire post, including the boilerplate?
To the quoteds: Please do not quote the boilerplate.
--
Michael hennebry(a)web.cs.ndsu.NoDak.edu
"Sorry but your password must contain an uppercase letter, a number,
a haiku, a gang sign, a heiroglyph, and the blood of a virgin."
-- someeecards
11:05 a.m.
For me the current wayland showstopper is this. Like many of you I am
working from home. I frequently need to make presentations. I am usually
using chrome as browser. Current stable chrome will not work to present
wayland windows. As I understand it chrome is running on X11 and only
other windows running in X11 are selectable for presentation.
I saw an announcement that newer versions of chrome will support wayland.
I'm hoping that running on wayland maybe both wayland and X11 windows will
be selectable for presentation.
Thanks,
Neal
12:02 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 12:05:03PM -0400, Neal Becker wrote:
For me the current wayland showstopper is this. Like many of you I am
working from home. I frequently need to make presentations. I am usually
using chrome as browser. Current stable chrome will not work to present
wayland windows. As I understand it chrome is running on X11 and only
other windows running in X11 are selectable for presentation.
Frankly, I'm happy that my web browser can't steal visuals and key
events from other windows on my desktop. If this needs to be
implemented, it should be an opt in and not the default permissions.
--
Jonathan Billings <billings(a)negate.org>
10:38 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Oct 2020 at 05:04, Tim via users
<users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
This whole idea of "I can't work on this, let's throw it
all out and
start again" is just incompetence.
I suspect you have no idea how a modern window system works. The
hardware shipping in computers now bears little resemblance to what
X11 was designed for and there's only so many times you can layer
hack-on-hack before the whole thing becomes an unmaintainable chaotic
mess. Before you start throwing insults around perhaps you should
learn about the underlying architecture choices of X11 and Wayland.
Richard.
4:25 a.m.
On Monday, October 26, 2020 11:46:00 AM WET George N. White III wrote:
One of the motivations for Wayland was that the X.Org was becoming
unmaintainable and suffered from design choices that are no longer
relevant. It has been clear for some time that X Org was not getting much
attention, but Wayland has been around for a while and still many drivers
(Wacom professional drawing tablets) require X (and don't work with
X-Wayland). An additional problem is that developers with decades of X11
experience are aging out.
The Phoronix post has 100's comments, so far I haven't seen them degenerate
to politics.
I am surprised that no one mentioned Adam Jackson (ajax) blog on the issue:
https://ajaxnwnk.blogspot.com/2020/10/on-abandoning-x-server.html
--
José Matos
1274
days inactive
1277
days old
31 comments
24 participants
participants (24)
-
Christian Groessler -
Ed Greshko -
George N. White III -
Joe Zeff -
Jonathan Billings -
José Abílio Matos -
Kevin Becker -
Kevin Fenzi -
Matthew Miller -
Matti Pulkkinen -
Michael Hennebry -
Neal Becker -
Richard Hughes -
Roberto Ragusa -
Roger Heflin -
Sam Varshavchik -
Samuel Sieb -
stan -
Stephen Morris -
Stephen Perkins -
Tim -
Todd Zullinger -
Tom Horsley -
William Oliver