Network Manager

[David Donnelly]

I am very impressed with this program. Good work to the creator(s).

http://fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/

I am using ndiswrapper with a built-in wifi (broadcom chipset) on a
Compaq R3000 laptop. I have not previously been able to scan other
available networks or view signal strength because of the fact I am
using ndiswrapper. This has given me that ability.

However, having the ability to view multiple choices means that I can
see all my neighbour's as well. I am just wondering if there is a way to
specify a "preferred" network. My SSID is not encrypted but does not
broadcast either. I can connect if I specify the SSID. I also would like
to know if I can automate the connection process on boot that it trys to
connect to my SSID. The Network Manager Daemon starts but I need to run
"NetworkManagerInfo" from the console to start a scan. I would like this
process to start automatically if possible. When I do run the command,
it connects to my neighbour even though I was last connected to my own
access point.

Regards,
David Donnelly

[D. D. Brierton]

On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 22:16 -0700, David Donnelly wrote:
>  However, having the ability to view multiple choices means that I
> can
>  see all my neighbour's as well. I am just wondering if there is a way to
>  specify a "preferred" network. My SSID is not encrypted but does not
>  broadcast either. I can connect if I specify the SSID. I also would like
>  to know if I can automate the connection process on boot that it trys to
>  connect to my SSID. The Network Manager Daemon starts but I need to run
>  "NetworkManagerInfo" from the console to start a scan. I would like this
>  process to start automatically if possible. When I do run the command,
>  it connects to my neighbour even though I was last connected to my own
>  access point. 
I am fairly sure that this issue needs to be reported to the
NetworkManager list:

http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list

I'm tracking that list, and development of NetworkManger, even though at
the moment I can't use it due to driver issues. As I understand the
current state of play, NetworkManager *ought* to do exactly what you
want it to---i.e. connect to the last one you chose given the current
choices. However, many of the current problems (including mine) are
nothing to do with NetworkManager but are problems with the various
wireless drivers. The NetworkManager-list seems to be very active, and
you should report your problem there. Even if you have to subscribe to
it just for this problem, you can unsubscribe to it after a couple of
weeks if your only interest is in reporting this problem. Once the
drivers are beaten into better shape NetworkManager is going to be one
of the coolest applications ever.

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

[David Donnelly]

On Sat, 2005-26-02 at 05:53 +0000, D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 22:16 -0700, David Donnelly wrote:
>  > However, having the ability to view multiple choices means that I can
>  > see all my neighbour's as well. I am just wondering if there is a way to
>  > specify a "preferred" network. My SSID is not encrypted but does not
>  > broadcast either. I can connect if I specify the SSID. I also would like
>  > to know if I can automate the connection process on boot that it trys to
>  > connect to my SSID. The Network Manager Daemon starts but I need to run
>  > "NetworkManagerInfo" from the console to start a scan. I would like this
>  > process to start automatically if possible. When I do run the command,
>  > it connects to my neighbour even though I was last connected to my own
>  > access point.
>  
>  I am fairly sure that this issue needs to be reported to the
>  NetworkManager list: 
Thanks, I will definitely post this there.

>  http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/networkmanager-list
>  
>  I'm tracking that list, and development of NetworkManger, even though at
>  the moment I can't use it due to driver issues. As I understand the
>  current state of play, NetworkManager *ought* to do exactly what you
>  want it to---i.e. connect to the last one you chose given the current
>  choices. However, many of the current problems (including mine) are
>  nothing to do with NetworkManager but are problems with the various
>  wireless drivers. The NetworkManager-list seems to be very active, and
>  you should report your problem there. Even if you have to subscribe to
>  it just for this problem, you can unsubscribe to it after a couple of
>  weeks if your only interest is in reporting this problem. Once the
>  drivers are beaten into better shape NetworkManager is going to be one
>  of the coolest applications ever.
>  
>  Best, Darren 
Not sure if I should ask this here but what the heck. What are your
issues with NetworkManager. I am actually stunned / impressed that this
works using ndiswrapper. Which driver(s)are you using that aren't
working?

Regards,
David Donnelly
>  -- 
>  =====================================================================
>  D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
>         Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
>  =====================================================================
>

[D. D. Brierton]

On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 23:12 -0700, David Donnelly wrote:

>  Not sure if I should ask this here but what the heck. What are your
>  issues with NetworkManager. I am actually stunned / impressed that this
>  works using ndiswrapper. Which driver(s)are you using that aren't
>  working? 
My card has an Intersil/Prism 2 chipset and uses the orinoco_cs driver.
The driver currently does not support scanning, which largely reduces
the usefulness of NM, but even when I enter my details manually NM fails
to connect to my access point. Dan has confirmed that this is purely a
driver issue, and hopefully the next release of orinoco_cs will address
many of these issues.

Actually, I am not stunned that NM works using ndiswrapper. NM needs
good, well-written drivers. ndiswrapper gives you access to Windows
drivers, i.e. drivers written by people who actually had the hardware
specs and technical details of whatever it is they're writing a driver
for. Most linux drivers are written by people who do not have similar
access. Dan has said on more than one occasion that the biggest problem
with NM is that linux wireless drivers suck.

Best, Darren

-- 
=====================================================================
D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
       Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
=====================================================================

[David Donnelly]

On Sat, 2005-26-02 at 14:09 +0000, D. D. Brierton wrote:
>  On Fri, 2005-02-25 at 23:12 -0700, David Donnelly wrote:
>  
>  > Not sure if I should ask this here but what the heck. What are your
>  > issues with NetworkManager. I am actually stunned / impressed that this
>  > works using ndiswrapper. Which driver(s)are you using that aren't
>  > working?
>  
>  My card has an Intersil/Prism 2 chipset and uses the orinoco_cs driver.
>  The driver currently does not support scanning, which largely reduces
>  the usefulness of NM, but even when I enter my details manually NM fails
>  to connect to my access point. Dan has confirmed that this is purely a
>  driver issue, and hopefully the next release of orinoco_cs will address
>  many of these issues.
>  
>  Actually, I am not stunned that NM works using ndiswrapper. NM needs
>  good, well-written drivers. ndiswrapper gives you access to Windows
>  drivers, i.e. drivers written by people who actually had the hardware
>  specs and technical details of whatever it is they're writing a driver
>  for. Most linux drivers are written by people who do not have similar
>  access. Dan has said on more than one occasion that the biggest problem
>  with NM is that linux wireless drivers suck.
>  
>  Best, Darren 
I concur that the windows driver will support all the bells and
whistles. I guess what surprised me was that NM actually got these
features out of ndiswrapper.I have found in the past that while
ndiswrapper provided basic functionality, the other features supported
by the card such as scanning and/or polling didn't work. We can dream of
the day that all hardware makers provide linux support.

Regards,
David Donnelly
>  -- 
>  =====================================================================
>  D. D. Brierton            darren(a)dzr-web.com          www.dzr-web.com
>         Trying is the first step towards failure (Homer Simpson)
>  =====================================================================
>

[Timothy Murphy]

D. D. Brierton wrote:

>  Dan has said on more than one occasion that the biggest problem
>  with NM is that linux wireless drivers suck. 
I don't agree that the standard orinoco_cs driver "sucks".
It has worked for me perfectly on several laptops.

The orinoco_cs author has been careful - or conservative -
not to include code which might cause problems on some PCMCIA cards.

Personally, I would prefer a program which worked faultlessly
with restricted facilities
rather than a more ambitious program which might cause my computer
to hang or panic.

I seem to be alone in not finding the Windows Network wizard very good.
Both Windows and Linux wizards seem to me to try to be too clever.
I'd rather be told what is going on, what config files are being modified,
what the program has learned about my setup, etc.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Michael A. Peters]

On 02/25/2005 09:16:13 PM, David Donnelly wrote:
>  I am very impressed with this program. Good work to the creator(s).
>  
>  http://fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/
>  
Hey wow - I can't answer your question, I didn't know that existed.
I can't use it on my desktop currently because it seems to only allow a  
connection to ONE network (thus I can't use my wired network printer -  
not until I get my wireless bridge for it) but it looks like it will be  
a rather useful little app when my new (to me) laptop arrives.

I knew Fedora had some way to deal with multiple networks and laptops,  
I just hadn't yet bothered looking at what it was. Now I know :)

-- 
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/

[Timothy Murphy]

David Donnelly wrote:

>  I am very impressed with this program. Good work to the creator(s).
>  http://fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/ 
Sadly, I cannot concur.

In the first place, this program appears to be
completely lacking in any documentation,
apart from the fairly useless README in /usr/share/doc/NetworkManager* .

Secondly, NetworkManager makes unspecified changes in config files
which are not restored when the program is stopped.

Thirdly, as far as I can see NetworkManager
tries to make my WiFi card (a bog-standard Orinico Gold PCMCIA card)
perform operations that it is not capable of,
causing my laptop to hang.

Fourthly, as you mention it is not clear what relation
NetworkManager has to NetworkManagerInfo.
On my laptop the latter program sometimes starts the little windmill icon,
and sometimes does not,
in which case the only way I know the program is running is with "ps".

Fifthly, when the program is running,
I do not understand the option I am offered
between "Add new connection" and "Other connection".

(I should say that I am running Fedora-3 with linux-2.6.10.)

A working network wizard would be a great addition to Linux.
Sadly NetworkManager does not currently fulfil that role.
The best one can say is that it is no worse than
system-config-network* and the other wizards based on this.

I would suggest that before "improving" NetworkManager
some intelligible documentation should be provided,
preferably in the form of a man page or an info file.


-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi


>  In the first place, this program appears to be
>  completely lacking in any documentation,
>  apart from the fairly useless README in /usr/share/doc/NetworkManager* . 

its in an experimental stage now


>  
>  Secondly, NetworkManager makes unspecified changes in config files
>  which are not restored when the program is stopped. 
that would be bugs and should be reported.


>  
>  Thirdly, as far as I can see NetworkManager
>  tries to make my WiFi card (a bog-standard Orinico Gold PCMCIA card)
>  perform operations that it is not capable of,
>  causing my laptop to hang. 
a driver problem. see the list dan posted to lkml for details

>  
>  Fourthly, as you mention it is not clear what relation
>  NetworkManager has to NetworkManagerInfo. 
its the underlying policy program working over hal


>  
>  I would suggest that before "improving" NetworkManager
>  some intelligible documentation should be provided,
>  preferably in the form of a man page or an info file. 
sure. when its ready for end users,  docs should be provided
-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

[Timothy Murphy]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> > In the first place, this program appears to be
> > completely lacking in any documentation,
> > apart from the fairly useless README in /usr/share/doc/NetworkManager* .
>  
>  its in an experimental stage now 
But it's being offered as a part of Fedora-3.
I'm not asking for a lot.
Just a sentence or two in the README
(a man page would be better)
to say how one is meant to run the program,
and what one is supposed to see.


-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[jim lawrence]

You can report the "Bugs" that you are experiencing to the redhat
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/ 

the care taker of Network Manager  regularly checks the status of bugs. 

also, the latest version seems to have most of the bugs worked out. 
NetworkManager-0.3.3-1.cvs20050119.2.fc3

TTFn
-- 

Jim Lawrence
Registered Linux User: #376813
********************************************************
When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. 
It makes the neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself.
************************************

[David Donnelly]

On Sat, 2005-26-02 at 13:15 +0000, Timothy Murphy wrote:
>  David Donnelly wrote:
>  
>  > I am very impressed with this program. Good work to the creator(s).
>  > http://fedoranews.org/contributors/jim_lawrence/network_manager/
>  
>  Sadly, I cannot concur.
>  
>  In the first place, this program appears to be
>  completely lacking in any documentation,
>  apart from the fairly useless README in /usr/share/doc/NetworkManager* .
>  
>  Secondly, NetworkManager makes unspecified changes in config files
>  which are not restored when the program is stopped.
>  
>  Thirdly, as far as I can see NetworkManager
>  tries to make my WiFi card (a bog-standard Orinico Gold PCMCIA card)
>  perform operations that it is not capable of,
>  causing my laptop to hang.
>  
>  Fourthly, as you mention it is not clear what relation
>  NetworkManager has to NetworkManagerInfo.
>  On my laptop the latter program sometimes starts the little windmill icon,
>  and sometimes does not,
>  in which case the only way I know the program is running is with "ps".
>  
>  Fifthly, when the program is running,
>  I do not understand the option I am offered
>  between "Add new connection" and "Other connection".
>  
>  (I should say that I am running Fedora-3 with linux-2.6.10.)
>  
>  A working network wizard would be a great addition to Linux.
>  Sadly NetworkManager does not currently fulfil that role.
>  The best one can say is that it is no worse than
>  system-config-network* and the other wizards based on this.
>  
>  I would suggest that before "improving" NetworkManager
>  some intelligible documentation should be provided,
>  preferably in the form of a man page or an info file. 
-- 
>  Timothy Murphy  
>  e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
>  tel: [phone]
>  s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland 
  
I agree the lack of good documentation is a bit of a problem. I wouldn't
have had to ask the question if I could have read it myself :-)

Hopefully your comments have been noted by the developers and will be
addressed in the future.

Regards,
David Donnelly

>

[Jon Savage]

>  Thirdly, as far as I can see NetworkManager
>  tries to make my WiFi card (a bog-standard Orinico Gold PCMCIA card)
>  perform operations that it is not capable of,
>  causing my laptop to hang. 
Have you tried the cvs version of the drivers from:
http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/orinoco/
I had similar problems with lockups etc. and the upstream drivers
fixed the issue for me,
>  Fourthly, as you mention it is not clear what relation
>  NetworkManager has to NetworkManagerInfo.
>  On my laptop the latter program sometimes starts the little windmill icon,
>  and sometimes does not, 
It works for me 99% of the time right now, not bad for a
bleeding edge
feature IMHO.
<snip> 
>  A working network wizard would be a great addition to Linux.
>  Sadly NetworkManager does not currently fulfil that role. 
Again it 'just
works' for me, just have to compile the upstream
drivers when I uprade kernel.
Hopefully some of the upstream functionality will make its way
downstream in the not so distant future.
Bests
JS

[Timothy Murphy]

Jon Savage wrote:

> > Thirdly, as far as I can see NetworkManager
> > tries to make my WiFi card (a bog-standard Orinico Gold PCMCIA card)
> > perform operations that it is not capable of,
> > causing my laptop to hang. 
>  Have you tried the cvs version of the drivers from:
>  http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/orinoco/ 
In my case, NetworkManager is only an interesting hobby.
WiFi works perfectly for me with my Orinoco Classic Gold PCMCIA card,
using the standard kernel orinoco_cs module under linux-2.6.10 .
I wouldn't want to lose that.

It seems to me that if NetworkManager only works with certain cards,
or with certain drivers, this should be stated somewhere.

Or even better, could NetworkManager test the card in use,
and drop out with an error message if the card is unable
to perform the operations required by the program?



-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail (<80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Michael A. Peters]

On 03/02/2005 01:06:59 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote:

>  
>  It seems to me that if NetworkManager only works with certain cards,
>  or with certain drivers, this should be stated somewhere. 
Is there a hardware database somewhere where people can add info?
It worked very well with my atheros based card - I tried it because I  
will need it when I find a laptop I like and can afford, but I don't  
need it for my desktop - it worked very well though with the madwifi  
driver and my cheap CompUSA bought AT&T Plug&Share PCI card.

A hardware database of what chips/drivers it plays nice with would be  
just swell for those looking to _buy_ a wifi card to use with their  
laptop in Fedora.

I hear the state of 802.11g in Linux is actually going to be getting  
much better soon, with several new drivers that are completely GPL  
headed for the kernel soon.

Only problem with such a database is some card makers commit the mortal  
sin of changing their chipset on the card, with no notice other than a  
small revision number somewhere on the box.

-- 
Michael A. Peters
http://mpeters.us/

[David Curry]

Michael A. Peters wrote:

>  Is there a hardware database somewhere where people can add info?
>  It worked very well with my atheros based card - I tried it because I  
>  will need it when I find a laptop I like and can afford, but I don't  
>  need it for my desktop - it worked very well though with the madwifi  
>  driver and my cheap CompUSA bought AT&T Plug&Share PCI card.
>
>  A hardware database of what chips/drivers it plays nice with would be  
>  just swell for those looking to _buy_ a wifi card to use with their  
>  laptop in Fedora.
>
>  I hear the state of 802.11g in Linux is actually going to be getting  
>  much better soon, with several new drivers that are completely GPL  
>  headed for the kernel soon.
>
>  Only problem with such a database is some card makers commit the 
>  mortal  sin of changing their chipset on the card, with no notice 
>  other than a  small revision number somewhere on the box.
>  
Trouble is that a lot of vendors don't advertise/disclose their card 
chipsets outside of the cards themselves.  All to often they just do not 
put that information on their product packaging or on their websites.  
One either has to buy the card and install it to find out or know 
someone that has the card.  At least that has been my experience.

Network Manager: slightly OT

[Ganeshram Iyer]

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 20:51:44 -0500, David Curry <dsccable(a)comcast.net&gt; wrote:
>  Michael A. Peters wrote:
>  
>  >
>  > Is there a hardware database somewhere where people can add info?
>  > It worked very well with my atheros based card - I tried it because I
>  > will need it when I find a laptop I like and can afford, but I don't
>  > need it for my desktop - it worked very well though with the madwifi
>  > driver and my cheap CompUSA bought AT&T Plug&Share PCI card.
>  > 
 
Sorry if my post is seen as OT but I need a similar answer for my
wireless card. I have FC3 on my Dell dimension with the Belkin F5D6001
version 1 PCI wireless card and I am just not able to run it. I know
the card works as I installed it on my Suse personal 9.1 and use it in
conjuction with netapplet. It obviously works with windows too as the
drivers are available. But FC3 is just no go. FC3 finds my card when
setting up a new wireless connection but never gets an IP address. I
have even tried to use NetworkManager and it briefly worked for a day,
inconsistently though - kept rescanning over and over again, but
eventually stopped working altogether. I even tried ndiswrapper on
this card but still no go. Could someone on this list provide me with
CLI commands to get the card to request an IP? I tried the following:
iwconfig
ifconfig eth0 up
no IP.

Please help. Thanks in advance.
Ganesh