Matthew Miller via devel-announce writes:
If you run into any trouble, or just have questions, you can find help at:
This made me curious. Does anyone happen to know if the equivalent of this E- mailed announcement (that must've been broadcasted to the various Fedora forums, such as ask.fedoraproject.org) – I'm genuinely curious if the web- based versions of this announcement informs the reader about the fedora- users mailing list for additional help, assistance, and community support?
Well, let's see. I see this announcement on ask.fedoraproject.org. It's a link to https://fedoramagazine.org/announcing-fedora-linux-42/ – splendid. Let's hop over there…
Let’s talk over at Fedora Discussion.
which is a circular link back to ask.fedoraproject.org
So, it looks like the answer to the question I asked is "no".
On 16/04/2025 01:29, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
Matthew Miller via devel-announce writes:
If you run into any trouble, or just have questions, you can find help at:
This made me curious. Does anyone happen to know if the equivalent of this E-mailed announcement (that must've been broadcasted to the various Fedora forums, such as ask.fedoraproject.org) – I'm genuinely curious if the web-based versions of this announcement informs the reader about the fedora-users mailing list for additional help, assistance, and community support?
Well, let's see. I see this announcement on ask.fedoraproject.org. It's a link to https://fedoramagazine.org/announcing-fedora-linux-42/ – splendid. Let's hop over there…
Let’s talk over at Fedora Discussion.
which is a circular link back to ask.fedoraproject.org
So, it looks like the answer to the question I asked is "no".
aside from the subject, a bit. Posting here about web-browser based communication channels probably defeats the purpose. But also most importantly, practically....most know, what the advantages of mailing lists in an email clients such as Thunderbird are: 1) much cleaner view 2) no noise in form of icons, thumbnails other flashing graphics, ads/commercials 3) everything, not just one community, in one place -> a) 4) off-line, yes... for some, an in-imaginable feat/situation, when happens, all the content already received is still available
now... we have a generation to which practical & logical mind is a foreign concept, whose attention span is only a few minutes, thus... posting on web forums about mailing list probably defeats the purpose even more so..
and now.. the only important question - in my mind - is: do we have an actual split inside, within our (any) community and is the root (& only) cause is simply a preference (ignorance ?) toward one tool/solution This question should be seriously investigated by stake/share-holders of Fedora and.. if the answer is YES, then... the only solution - in my mind - must be practical-programmatic one... to sync messaging content between the two (or more), pulling/pushing those two between each other so there is no difference, the messaging-content is the same everywhere.
L.
On Wed, 2025-04-16 at 10:15 +0200, lejeczek via users wrote:
the only solution - in my mind - must be practical-programmatic one... to sync messaging content between the two (or more), pulling/pushing those two between each other so there is no difference, the messaging-content is the same everywhere.
That's a lot harder than it looks at first sight. I've never seen an attempt at doing this that works acceptably. Just one example: web forum users can edit their posts, but email users can't. Another one: forum users assume that the whole thread is visible for context, so often don't quote anything. When that gets translated to email, people are confused because the conventions are different. We see this regularly with HyperKitty posts on this list
poc
lejeczek via users wrote:
the only solution - in my mind - must be practical-programmatic one... to sync messaging content between the two (or more), pulling/pushing those two between each other so there is no difference, the messaging-content is the same everywhere.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
That's a lot harder than it looks at first sight. I've never seen an attempt at doing this that works acceptably. Just one example: web forum users can edit their posts, but email users can't.
That has advantages and disadvantages. You can make corrections to your own post, although older replies will still be using the wrong info. And people delete things in fits of pique.
I don't participate in reddit, but many times when an internet search has referenced it as your answer, it's often like reading an argument that went on in a pub.
Another one: forum users assume that the whole thread is visible for context, so often don't quote anything.
I find it far more common, everywhere, that people unnecessarily do full-quoting. Apart from the waste of space, it makes it very hard to understand what someone is replying to as they usually reply without due thought.
The full-quoting is exacerbated by clients (mail or web) that mute the quotes from being seen, so the respondent pays little heed to their inclusion.
This is Linux, we should be on usenet! ;-)
Joking aside, newsgroups were far superior to mailing lists and forums (cached, no email addresses needed to post that would be exposed to spammers, better filtering options [follow and ignore], hosted by someone else so you didn't need to host servers, etc).
On Thu, 2025-04-17 at 05:28 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
lejeczek via users wrote:
the only solution - in my mind - must be practical-programmatic one... to sync messaging content between the two (or more), pulling/pushing those two between each other so there is no difference, the messaging-content is the same everywhere.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
That's a lot harder than it looks at first sight. I've never seen an attempt at doing this that works acceptably. Just one example: web forum users can edit their posts, but email users can't.
That has advantages and disadvantages. You can make corrections to your own post, although older replies will still be using the wrong info. And people delete things in fits of pique.
I don't participate in reddit, but many times when an internet search has referenced it as your answer, it's often like reading an argument that went on in a pub.
Of course. I wasn't saying I liked it, just that it exists.
Another one: forum users assume that the whole thread is visible for context, so often don't quote anything.
I find it far more common, everywhere, that people unnecessarily do full-quoting. Apart from the waste of space, it makes it very hard to understand what someone is replying to as they usually reply without due thought.
I'm talking about the people who use forum software cross-linked to a mailing list, such as HyperKitty. The (mis)use of mailing lists (lazy quoting, top-posting, cross-posting etc. etc.) is a separate topic.
poc
On 2025-04-16 15:58, Tim via users wrote:
This is Linux, we should be on usenet! ;-)
I could not agree more.
BTW, are you aware of any good and free NNTP servers out there?
Thanks Frank
Frank Bures writes:
On 2025-04-16 15:58, Tim via users wrote:
This is Linux, we should be on usenet! ;-)
I could not agree more.
BTW, are you aware of any good and free NNTP servers out there?
Sacrilege… How can you forget eternal-september.org?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 5:38 PM Sam Varshavchik mrsam@courier-mta.com wrote:
Frank Bures writes:
On 2025-04-16 15:58, Tim via users wrote:
This is Linux, we should be on usenet! ;-)
I could not agree more.
BTW, are you aware of any good and free NNTP servers out there?
Sacrilege… How can you forget eternal-september.org? **
*news.gmane.io http://news.gmane.io is still alive*
Tim via users writes:
Joking aside, newsgroups were far superior to mailing lists and forums
Newsgroups never crossed my mind, as part of the great mailing lists vs. forums discussions. But I have to agree with this, but only slightly.
(cached, no email addresses needed to post that would be exposed to spammers,
That's doable with E-mail too (not exposing email addresses), I'd say. Anyone can have as many throwaway email addresses as they want.
better filtering options [follow and ignore],
Mailing lists do a far better job of weeding out the crap simply by the virtue of requiring a subscription to go through, first, then whitelisting the subscriber addresses. In the hey-days of Usenet the spam cancelbots worked reasonably well, but it wasn't perfect.
hosted by someone else so you didn't need to host servers, etc).
In case of E-mail, tnese days most of the great unwashed have their E-mail infrastructure hosted by a third party, a large E-mail provider.
The biggest advantage to newsgroups is privacy.
Tim:
better filtering options [follow and ignore],
Sam Varshavchik:
Mailing lists do a far better job of weeding out the crap simply by the virtue of requiring a subscription to go through, first, then whitelisting the subscriber addresses.
While there's that, I was thinking more on the user's side. Have you seen mail clients with filtering as good as on news agents?
Ignore a thread - the whole thread vanishes from sight, and stays there.
Watch a thread - kept an eye out for the ones you were interested in, and highlighted them for you.
Kill files - send a thread, or an author to the eternal bit bucket.
A massive array of message groups you could use, or ignore, all in one spot.
Then there was caching. It was like web browsing, all the messages stored on the server, not filling up your own machine. It just kept temporary caches so you could move back and forth without redownloading, similar to IMAP. You held onto a few days worth, or whatever you preferred, for ease of reading. The server had a very long history, so you could find old messages.
Then there was the message editors. Forté Inc's Agent had the first message editor I found that didn't mangle quoted text. It could reflow your text, and quoted text, and not bugger it up. Pan was close, but not quite as good.
Tim via users writes:
While there's that, I was thinking more on the user's side. Have you seen mail clients with filtering as good as on news agents?
Yes. IIRC, cone is still packaged in Fedora. If not, it's straightforward to build the rpm from the source tarball.
Ignore a thread - the whole thread vanishes from sight, and stays there.
I found that killing a thread for a limited time/# of replies was sufficient for that particular purpose.
Watch a thread - kept an eye out for the ones you were interested in, and highlighted them for you.
Yes, just like this one, and also watching a thread for a limited period of time or replies. Combined with a filter that watches my own messages when they come back from the mailing list keeps me engaged in my conversations, and automatically drop off watching threads if others spin it off in some other direction.
Kill files - send a thread, or an author to the eternal bit bucket.
I think I have a few entries, along those lines…
Then there was the message editors. Forté Inc's Agent had the first message editor I found that didn't mangle quoted text. It could reflow your text, and quoted text, and not bugger it up. Pan was close, but not quite as good.
Cone does lazy text wrapping, uses flowed text MIME formatting, with a single key to reflow the current paragraph.
On Thu, 2025-04-17 at 13:47 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
Ignore a thread - the whole thread vanishes from sight, and stays there.
Speaking of that...
While Evolution has an option to ignore threads, it doesn't seem to do anything other than italicise the ignored messages in the message list. I can't find any option that either hides them, or simply collapses them (automatically) all into a single list entry.
Tangentially speaking, I have an intense hatred of mail clients that mark ignored messages as read. I want the read flag to indicate whether *I* have read them or not, at all times.
Ignored messages should be simply hidden from sight and from any notifications about unread messages, and that's all. Ignoring messages and later unignoring threads that have had their read flag messed up make it hard to tell what you've actually seen, or not.
On Fri, 2025-04-18 at 00:12 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
While Evolution has an option to ignore threads, it doesn't seem to do anything other than italicise the ignored messages in the message list. I can't find any option that either hides them, or simply collapses them (automatically) all into a single list entry.
Not something I've used so can't say anything about it. Might be worth brining up on the Evolution list.
Tangentially speaking, I have an intense hatred of mail clients that mark ignored messages as read. I want the read flag to indicate whether *I* have read them or not, at all times.
I never mark messages as Read automatically in any email client, only by explicit action. I don't know if that would make a difference.
poc
-
Frank Bures -
lejeczek -
Neal Becker -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Sam Varshavchik -
Tim