He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development has to be tested somewhere.
ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
I've had the misfortune of hearing him speak at our local LUG. Besides being the most arrogant SOB I've met in my 37 years, he implied in his speech that he was somehow responsible for the Linux revolution and apparently forcing all the Fortune100 companies to switch to Linux.
Thank god he'll no longer claim to be a Fedora user. It's sort of the same thing as Hannibal Lechter or Jeffrey Dahmer being in your dining club.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Kwan Lowe wrote:
He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development has to be tested somewhere.
ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant play mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this game.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
Yet I can do this with even slackware and have been able to for years, with slapt-get I was able to upgrade without a drama a slackware 7 box to a slackware 11.0!!, reboot and viola! all working.
I'll possibly for time being stick with Fedora for desktops,as I've used them since early RH, but no way in bloody hell will it ever run on any server in my data center, I'll stick with slackware there, last RH server I decommisioned about 2 years ago was RH9, it was unbreakable, Fedora is by design "bleeding edge" or is that "bleeding edge of blunders", and if we dont fix it soon, the likes of debian and suse will overtake us by a long mile.
/end rant :P
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res@ausics.net) wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix, regardless of what one thinks of supporting proprietary codecs or not, can they?
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first distribution for Windows refugees.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading (for any distro...) since the 90's...
Marco
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res@ausics.net) wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix,
They can, there is no reason at all, lets say a media player software wont, well unless you bastardise it like Fedora does, once you start ommitting parts of the authors original known working code, you no longer have a working guarantee.
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first distribution for Windows refugees.
Correct, unlike RedHat X.XX days. This is why Fedora has lost a very significant hold of desktop.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading (for any distro...) since the 90's...
I've had no problems in the 90's with slackware, since 2.0 at least. though yes it was alot harder back in those days.
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Its called "US law".
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S likes to think ;) )
And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other distros base in hte US stop providing...
to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading (for any distro...) since the 90's...
linux.org.uk is running FC by update. Some of the boxes started off somewhere around RH7.2 ..
There are certainly corner cases - notably when you've got stuff from non RH repositories that the system thus can't update from CD during a CD update - something the current FC work on extras merging and single CD is going to finally sort.
Alan
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Its called "US law".
Fedora really doesn't want to get sued for distributing mp3 tools if the patent owners get cross, or say Microsoft buys the patent out from them to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that being registered in a tax haven in the UK and based notionally somewhere in Africa can save them. They may even be right.
What actually has a hope of solving the MP3 problem is this sort of stuff
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 09:59 +1000, Res wrote:
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
I'd have to say that's a dicey thing to do on other OSs, as well. Windows included.
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 01:26 +0000, Alan wrote:
What actually has a hope of solving the MP3 problem is this sort of stuff
I wonder about the converse: What happens when some US company wants to make/sell/whatever something that was patented outside of the US, do they do the right thing, or forge ahead doing whatever they feel like?
Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 09:59 +1000, Res wrote:
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
I'd have to say that's a dicey thing to do on other OSs, as well. Windows included.
Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you buy a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a firewire target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old settings (users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac will even migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run them. That's a tough act to follow.
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:52 +1000, Res wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res@ausics.net) wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix,
They can, there is no reason at all, lets say a media player software wont, well unless you bastardise it like Fedora does, once you start ommitting parts of the authors original known working code, you no longer have a working guarantee.
What has redhat bastardized? They remove patent problem code from gstreamer-plugins. That code is not even necessary if you disable the plugins at build time.
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first distribution for Windows refugees.
Correct, unlike RedHat X.XX days. This is why Fedora has lost a very significant hold of desktop.
There have always been other distros that grabbed marketshare by attracting noobs and then faded. Ubuntu isn't fading as fast as I thought it would, maybe it is here to stay, but Fedora in my experience is a lot nicer than Red Hat was - even for noobs.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
Yes it is. I don't do it. It's messy on Windows too. After applying SP2 on my laptop, I could not boot. Had to go into rescue mode. Problem was a virus checker.
Upgrading has horror story scenarios on almost every OS.
This is why /home should be a separate LV by default - to allow for clean installs. Installer should look at the rpm database of the previous install, and as an option, have a clean install where the installer selects whatever packages previously were installed that are available.
Thus - user preserves /home data (and /srv data if that's separate) and gets a clean install similar to their previous configuration.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael A Peters wrote:
What has redhat bastardized? They remove patent problem code from gstreamer-plugins. That code is not even necessary if you disable the plugins at build time.
xmms for starters, have not bothered trying audacious, but im sure they removed part of the original authors code that plays mp3's etc as well in that.
attracting noobs and then faded. Ubuntu isn't fading as fast as I thought it would, maybe it is here to stay, but Fedora in my experience is a lot nicer than Red Hat was - even for noobs.
Call me ol school I dunno I prefered RedHat to Fedora And Ubuntu wont fade when Fedora plays its current politics. I have almost been tempted to try Ubuntu as some of my collegues say its fantastic.
It's messy on Windows too. After applying SP2 on my laptop, I could not boot. Had to go into rescue mode. Problem was a virus checker.
Linux/Solaris user through and through, dont use win.
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Michael A Peters wrote:
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:59 +1000, Res wrote:
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Neither of which is based in the US. Red Hat is a US company.
HUH Slackware is based in the US. Do your homework before making silly statements, Debian I was told was based in the US, one of its key founders certainly is in California.
Today Res did spake thusly:
On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Kwan Lowe wrote:
He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development has to be tested somewhere.
ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
This is changing a little in Fedora 7
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant play mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this game.
However, not all first installs are like that...I've converted a few ;)
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy, I've never ever yet upgraded from one version of RH or Fedora without conflicts, FC4 was a comple explosion, I gave up and reinstalled previous and ignored FC4.
Odd. I've upgraded my server from RH5 all the way up to FC6 using either apt-rpm or yum and not had any major issues. package-cleanup from yum tools is great for getting rid of the old crap left over.
Yet I can do this with even slackware and have been able to for years, with slapt-get I was able to upgrade without a drama a slackware 7 box to a slackware 11.0!!, reboot and viola! all working.
slapt-get completely killed my slackware 10 box. Twice. Never again...
I'll possibly for time being stick with Fedora for desktops,as I've used them since early RH, but no way in bloody hell will it ever run on any server in my data center, I'll stick with slackware there, last RH server I decommisioned about 2 years ago was RH9, it was unbreakable, Fedora is by design "bleeding edge" or is that "bleeding edge of blunders", and if we dont fix it soon, the likes of debian and suse will overtake us by a long mile.
I run FC6 on my server. It's never "broken". I use it to watch DivXs too and occasionally X breaks or MPlayer, but the ability for it to deal with my email/file serving/IRC server has remained unbroken.
/end rant :P
I guess everyone's experience is different. Me? I only enable livna and don't use any other repos, cept for AT for a webcam driver, and I simply enable that long enough to get a new kmod every new kernel. And it's been pretty solid for me...
Its called "US law".
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other distros base in hte US stop providing...
to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing the lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
Alan
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Res wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
How does debian solve this issue? Anyone know?
I put this out because it's probably the most fundamentalist of all distros (the won't pack firefox in there next version due to name copyright).
-- 21:50:04 up 2 days, 9:07, 0 users, load average: 0.92, 0.37, 0.18 --------------------------------------------------------- Lic. Martín Marqués | SELECT 'mmarques' || Centro de Telemática | '@' || 'unl.edu.ar'; Universidad Nacional | DBA, Programador, del Litoral | Administrador ---------------------------------------------------------
Today Alan did spake thusly:
Its called "US law".
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
And if thats such a problem, like I said, why do none of the other distros base in hte US stop providing...
to cause trouble. Many of the other distributions aren't worth sueing because they have no money anyway. Others seem to be hoping that
I dont believe that for a second. A large distro base like Slackware and Debian offer them, and there name is as well known as RH's.
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing the lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US company and so can sort of get away with it
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Martin Marques wrote:
I put this out because it's probably the most fundamentalist of all distros (the won't pack firefox in there next version due to name copyright).
Sorry, this was poorly writen.
The changed the names and icons of all mozilla brands in there etch (next release) version. So in the next debian version, firefox will be iceweasel and thunderbird will be icedove. ;-)
-- 21:50:04 up 2 days, 9:07, 0 users, load average: 0.92, 0.37, 0.18 --------------------------------------------------------- Lic. Martín Marqués | SELECT 'mmarques' || Centro de Telemática | '@' || 'unl.edu.ar'; Universidad Nacional | DBA, Programador, del Litoral | Administrador ---------------------------------------------------------
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 09:59:03 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree) licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant play mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this game.
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap off the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading media codecs from third party web sites are going to scare them off.
Today Alan did spake thusly:
...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US company and so can sort of get away with it
Ubuntu the company doesn't appear to be the company that owns/employs all the people either, that seems to be a different company (presumably owned by Ubuntu).
I can find out...a couple of the paid developers are mates... ;)
...and Ubuntu is registered in the Isle of Man and not a US company and so can sort of get away with it
Ubuntu the company doesn't appear to be the company that owns/employs all the people either, that seems to be a different company (presumably owned by Ubuntu).
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Scott van Looy wrote:
slapt-get completely killed my slackware 10 box. Twice. Never again...
I did the entire data center where I worked without a hitch, you must have had something screwy in the first place.
Your upgrade on fedora sequences seems to be the complete opposite of most people around here, but,anythings possible :)
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
The U.S law does not apply to any other country ( contrary to what the U.S likes to think ;) )
Fedora is US based and therefore subject to US law. Furthermore the question of whether a US organisation shipping bits abroad which are then used abroad in a manner breaching US patent is currently before the supreme court (Microsoft v AT&T).
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Slackware and Debian together aren't worth the cost of bringing the lawsuit. Their total real world assets are worth peanuts.
So its all about $$$$$, fedora might have, 1 million users, debian and slackware could have combined 2 million, and they wont give a damn because neither of the other two make real money off it? LOL what a complete joke. What about when debian overtakes fedora because of the likes of this thread, what about when debian has 3 million users and fedora 900K or less.
What about, say the authors of certain code licensed under GPL, taking action against fedora for editing and distributing their code, unless a hell of a lot of the programs in fedora are all now licensed under the Creative Commons license, they shouldnt be doing so, in my opinion.
NOTE: I do not understand US law, I am not in US, nor am I subject to US law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more legally sane and realistic country. I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues everybody" :)
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap off the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading
Like it or not, thats about 90% of the internet users
Alan wrote:
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
I assume that providing the URL of the source (or the actual source code) is OK, as this is already been accepted as a form/expression of "free speech" protected under US law right ?
Ref: http://www.epic.org/free_speech/
Albert.
On 2/22/07, Alan alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in the USA (as are many of the contributors).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more legally sane and realistic country.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US people can't contribute.
I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues everybody" :)
Yep.
Things are apparently more bleak than I thought. I find this surprisingly depressing.
Res:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work, like as simple as playing a bloody mp3, which they can do with every other distro out there. like it or not, its here and here to stay.
Bruno Wolff III:
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree) licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors:
People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep, that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that works on everything that they have.
Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't want ogg to support that crap.
Most of the files they want to play, probably illegal downloads, being MP3. Heck, just jump on a peer-to-peer network and try to find any ogg files, just using ogg as your keywords, and you'll usually only see a few turn up.
Try converting winblows users to Fedora, but saying, oh but you cant play mp3's out of the box...you can, but youll have to go toa unofficial RH/Fedora repo and try install it, or do like I do and erase the players RH bastardises, and grab the source and install it, now say that to a newbie and you've lost em! First impression are ever lasting in this game.
You are talking about the same idoits that will download any old crap off the net and repeatedly get their machines trojaned. I don't see how downloading media codecs from third party web sites are going to scare them off.
That's a fair point, but then such users seem to be stupid on a number of fronts.
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in the USA (as are many of the contributors).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
I thought the US had a thing called the ammendement free speach or some thing, I guess this does not extend to typed speach :)
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more legally sane and realistic country.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US people can't contribute.
I guess what they say about the US is true "everybody sues everybody" :)
Yep.
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's Democratic Republic of America.
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 23:53:45 +0000 Albert Graham agraham@g-b.net wrote:
Alan wrote:
Nope - common misunderstanding - political speech not arbitary speech. So your right to object is protected not your right to give the URL
I assume that providing the URL of the source (or the actual source code) is OK, as this is already been accepted as a form/expression of "free speech" protected under US law right ?
Probably not: See: http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/MPAA_DVD_cases/?f=20020703_eff_2600_pr.html
Tim wrote:
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree) licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors:
People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep, that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that works on everything that they have.
Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't want ogg to support that crap.
If Lucent goes crazy suing all the people who though they had licensed MP3 technology, ogg might catch on real fast.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+hit+with+1.5+billion+patent+verdict/2100-1030_...
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:14:44AM +1030, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's Democratic Republic of America.
That, and an accurate re-write of the Constitution, which would say:
"The President may do anything he damn well please. Congress shall supinely and obsequiously vote him the money and authority to do it. The Courts shall similarly rubber stamp the frst two."
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 09:29 +1000, Res wrote:
the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police
Are you going to tell them, or am I... ;-) I'm just waiting for them to change the name of the country, accordingly. i.e. The People's Democratic Republic of America.
LOL
and... If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
The US thinks differently. Its accused for example of simply removing people from other countries to interrogate or torture. The Microsoft v ATT case if you bother to read it is relevant because Red Hat is based in the USA (as are many of the contributors).
Well, there are other distros around, like I said, people are ignorant, they dont care, they just want to play it, if something doesnt do it out the box, they go elsewhere.
And if I get a rainy weekend maybe I'll have a read of the AT&T case, one month.
If you move it and it is doing things not legal in the US then US people can't contribute.
Then the US is forcing it to become an outsider by its lack of common sense. But we all know RH wont move offshore, so RH has enshrined a setback policy, deterring new linux converts.
Things like this dont really worry me too much, because I often remove a lot of the packages (incl kernel) and install from source. But its a shame things are going down this road, a few years ago nobody dare mention, say debian in this country, now, its more prevailant then Fedora, and you wonder why.
If I want my OS distributor to tell me how I'm going to use the programs I'll dump all my linux (and solaris) boxes and run winblows.
At 01:01 23/02/2007, you wrote:
Tim wrote:
If everyone has that attidude, things are likely to stay that way. I'd much rather see people pushing Ogg and including links to download players and plugins similar to the ones for Adobe's products, than try to get (nonfree) licensed copies into all of the base distributions.
I'd like that, too. But it's hamstrung by a few factors: People with personal/portable playback hardware, that they want to keep, that won't play ogg. So they'll get all their music in one format that works on everything that they have. Publishers not wanting to supply files without DRM. And, no, I don't want ogg to support that crap.
If Lucent goes crazy suing all the people who though they had licensed MP3 technology, ogg might catch on real fast.
http://news.com.com/Microsoft+hit+with+1.5+billion+patent+verdict/2100-1030_...
-- Les Mikesell lesmikesell@gmail.com
-- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
I think another problem we have is that MP3 has become one of those "generic" or whatever the name is, abused terms. It's like a vacuum cleaner being called a Hoover when it's actually a Dyson, or a four wheel drive vehicle being referred to as a Jeep when clearly it's a Land Rover.
It's the same problem with audio compression. I bought my wife a flash music player for Christmas, and I've still not managed to train her to say "Ogg Vorbis" instead of MP3. Even though it's never had an MP3 file loaded onto it.
BTW there is package available that makes Ogg files play on Windows Media Player:-
http://www.illiminable.com/ogg/
which I suppose is a bit like encouraging folks to install the XP version of Open Office to hopefully get them to make the jump over to Linux sometime.
Dave F
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest military and a number of other counties' leaders are willing to make deals when promised access to the US econmy (thiugh they seem to usually end up getting screwed when they do this).
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
The supreme court hasn't ruled on this yet, so there is hope the right case might get a different answer. 2600 was not seen as a favorable party in the case and the trial judge was biased. The whole idea that decss actually stopped real piracy was rediculus as real pirates just make bit for bit copies of the DVDs.
NOTE: I do not understand US law, I am not in US, nor am I subject to US law so I dont really care too much for it, but it seems reasonable that if threatened they could very easily be disolved in US and move to a more legally sane and realistic country.
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws. For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members as well.
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 01:24 +0100, M. Fioretti wrote:
On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 09:59:03 AM +1000, Res (res@ausics.net) wrote:
Maybe :), but he has a couple things I agree with, RH/Fedora is losing ground on desktop share, because people want things to just work,
"things to just work" and "bleeding edge by design" just cannot mix, regardless of what one thinks of supporting proprietary codecs or not, can they?
The basics, the ones which should be tried and tested, should work,
no? The instability should be as one moves toward the edge. These are not testing releases, bleeding edge or not.
Yes, I expect some difficulties. No, I don't expect major things to break with each new release.
In this sense yes, Fedora is not, can not, and does not want to be the first distribution for Windows refugees.
Really? Back when RH moved to Fedora, it sure looked that way to me (been using since RH 6.1, by the way). What were the alternatives - Mandrake? Certainly Debian, Gentoo, Slackware, and such had reputations that would discourage a casual user/experimenter. Suse? Maybe - but I'm not going there now. My recollection, faulty though it may be, was that Red Hat and Fedora were billing themselves as reasonable deskop replacements. For *end* users. Ubuntu is looking better and better, because they *are* taking end-users into account.
So what *does* Fedora want to be - the beta platform for RHEL? I don't mind helping out, I don't mind filing bugs, but that is not the reason why I use Linux on my machines. It's just not the purpose, and when my installation is seen in that light I get a touch annoyed.
Mindshare is in the numbers of end-users; that's where the visibility lies. And most end-users, still, use Windows. Do the math.
Secondly, the version upgrade is messy
This I cannot comment on. I've always installed each version from scratch, because of all the horror upgrade stories I've been reading (for any distro...) since the 90's...
Marco
And here I thought things were supposed to be getting better. Silly me. Like when the FC6 upgrade breaks the sound on my desktop. No discernable cause, as far as I can tell - just no sound. FC6 LiveCD gives me sound. Yes, I upgraded from FC5. Should I have reinstalled from scratch? Technically, perhaps. Practically that's a non-starter. It takes me far too long to bring everything back to a usable state (the initial upgrade, updating to newest fixed packages, installing everything I had before that was not in the upgrade, reconfiguring everything) that it isn't worth my while to do this every 6 months. Especially given the attitude I've seen toward people like me.
In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM database before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath.
-Don
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
[snip]
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws. For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members as well.
We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region codes, etc. on their own.
Mike
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority over it in certain respects and by certain means.
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you buy a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a firewire target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old settings (users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac will even migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run them. That's a tough act to follow.
I wish you hadn't said this, it makes me butt in to a thread everybody has stopped reading anyway...
I have a lot of respect for ESR, he's been one of the most vocal and influential campaigners of Linux, and open source in general. I think we (the open source community) do owe him a fair share of our current status and credibility.
It makes me sad to see a letter like this from him. It was clearly written in a state of anger, and lacks all of his usual eloquence and sharp logic. He obviously got fed up to a bursting point.
I'm not going to even mention any of his particular arguments (other than saying that RPM is brilliant, just rule in those sloppy packagers), however I must say I've been harbouring doubts about the future of Red Hat and Fedora myself. I can't really point my finger at anything specific, but let me start by saying that I've been a Linux-only user for about 13 years, much of that with RH/FC. And so has most of my household. In the past couple of years this turf has been invaded from two sides, though.
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Secondly, the desktops. I've immensely enjoyed the Linux game, making the impossible happen, sticking it up to them (you know who), even playing as an equal in a corporate Windows/Exchange environment. It had cost me a lot of time and sweat but it was worth it.
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need to get stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing stuff on the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of the time, without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined the rest of my family. My family had morphed into a Mac OS X community some time ago (Linux was too hard and Windows was out of the question), so I finally joined them and am now using Tiger on a Mac as my primary desktop.
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora, but I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had been using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and Apple appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own hardware...
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the Fedora project.
Cheers Steffen.
Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
[snip]
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups, though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
[snip]
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need to get stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing stuff on the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of the time, without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined the rest of
In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for many. Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling is a hobby. I have worked on and supported and written enough OS that fiddling with OS is not something that interests me any more, either. Fedora is the most extreme of the Linux in this respect.
If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then Fedora is not for you.
[snip]
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora, but I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had been using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and Apple appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
I'm not so sure about that. My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own hardware...
Well, they *market* their own hardware.
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the Fedora project.
Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Mike
Mike McCarty wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority over it in certain respects and by certain means.
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping in Italy. The victim was an Islamic cleric who was sent to Egypt and reportedly tortured.
John
John Wendel wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority over it in certain respects and by certain means.
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping in
Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of "knowlege". "AFAIK", doncha know.
Mike
Mike McCarty wrote:
John Wendel wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority over it in certain respects and by certain means.
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
Yep. Well, AFAIK the CIA doesn't do that, but our Armed Forces do.
Mike
Think again. The Italians have charged 26 CIA agents with kidnapping in
Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of "knowlege". "AFAIK", doncha know.
Mike
Sorry, you're absolutely correct. I also lack any real "knowledge" about this subject and should just shut up.
Regards,
John
Umm, not a matter of "think", it's a matter of "knowlege". "AFAIK", doncha know.
Sorry, you're absolutely correct. I also lack any real "knowledge" about this subject and should just shut up.
By definition dark deeds are done in the dark...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
-Andy
On 24/02/2007, at 3:07 AM, Mike McCarty wrote:
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck- up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups, though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
What same criticism? That Linux isn't security-centered enough? Well, that clearly doesn't apply to *some* Unixes, such as OpenBSD. Two- letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for many. Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling is a hobby.
Well, it used to be a hobby of mine, but it becoming less and less so. Apart from that, the Linux community is making far too many claims of real-world usefulness to withdraw behind the excuse of being "merely experimental" everytime someone points out a shortcoming. This isn't the early 1990's anymore.
I have worked on and supported and written enough OS that fiddling with OS is not something that interests me any more, either. Fedora is the most extreme of the Linux in this respect.
I don't think this is correct, either. I have seen Linux OS projects that are far more experimental than Fedora.
If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then Fedora is not for you.
I know the mantra. I've been chanting it myself. On the other hand, if all the fiddling never yields any meaningful results or progress then it isn't much more than pissing against the wind. I have the impression that this was one of ESR's gripes with Fredora.
My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
My wife and one of my sons used to run Fedora, without any stability problems, too. But it was a very time-consuming affair for me, they couldn't do much themselves, only what I've set up or made working for them.
Those of us who live and breathe Unix tend to lose touch with what user-friendliness means for computer illiterates. Give me the command line anyday, I much prefer it to any incarnation of "file managers". However, the command line doesn't mean squat to my family. The have to put up with the ghastliness of GUI file managers.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own hardware...
Well, they *market* their own hardware.
In fairness, they design and engineer it, and have it made in China.
Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Projects have rudders, too. Or at least, they should (it's called project management). And they should have long terms goals and strategies. And they should communicate those.
Cheers Steffen.
On Sat, Feb 24, 2007 at 02:52:30 +1100, Steffen Kluge kluge@dotnet.org wrote:
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Most of the security issues are with applications. The main security advantage of openbsd is that almost everything is turned off by default.
They are doing some important work that affects Linux in trying to get more open hardware. Plus they support openssh. Theo made my donation list this past year even though I don't run any openbsd systems.
Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 24/02/2007, at 3:07 AM, Mike McCarty wrote:
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck- up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
You can make this same criticism for any of the *NIX like OS groups, though things are improving. *NIX with its cryptic, often only two letter commands, and command switches no two of which look similar to each other, *breeds* guru mentality.
What same criticism? That Linux isn't security-centered enough? Well,
Sorry I wasn't clear. The criticism I meant was "stuck-up and hostile".
that clearly doesn't apply to *some* Unixes, such as OpenBSD. Two- letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
In short, fiddling with an OS is not a hobby for you, nor for many. Linux, in general, is for fiddlers and those for whom such fiddling is a hobby.
Well, it used to be a hobby of mine, but it becoming less and less so. Apart from that, the Linux community is making far too many claims of real-world usefulness to withdraw behind the excuse of being "merely experimental" everytime someone points out a shortcoming. This isn't the early 1990's anymore.
Yes, I'm rather put off by that, myself. When someone points out that Linux distros lack any real QA, and the user interface is still "not there", then the side of the mouth is "Linux is still in development, it's experimental, or you need to learn how to use man and apropos", but then it sure seems like many want it to compete with Widows and MacOS and complain that Dell doesn't ship their laptops with some distro on it. BTW, "Linux" is not "a thing". Everyone who likes it has his favorite distro.
[snip]
If installing and fiddling is not your "thing", then Fedora is not for you.
I know the mantra. I've been chanting it myself. On the other hand, if all the fiddling never yields any meaningful results or progress then it isn't much more than pissing against the wind. I have the impression that this was one of ESR's gripes with Fredora.
I won't presume in that direction. But I disagree with the sentiment. FC is "upstream" for RHEL.
My girlfriend, at my suggestion, is running Debian, and it works well enough, and is stable enough.
My wife and one of my sons used to run Fedora, without any stability problems, too. But it was a very time-consuming affair for me, they couldn't do much themselves, only what I've set up or made working for them.
I meant that the distro is stable. It changes infrequently, and has a good support mail list.
Debian is easier to configure than FC, in my experience.
Those of us who live and breathe Unix tend to lose touch with what user-friendliness means for computer illiterates. Give me the command line anyday, I much prefer it to any incarnation of "file managers". However, the command line doesn't mean squat to my family. The have to put up with the ghastliness of GUI file managers.
Well, we're both on the same page here.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own hardware...
Well, they *market* their own hardware.
In fairness, they design and engineer it, and have it made in China.
What I meant.
Linux has one really big flaw in one sense...
It has no rudder at all. Linux is not a product. Some distros attempt to be somewhat a product. Fedora makes no bones about it: Fedora Core is NOT A PRODUCT, IT IS A PROJECT.
Projects have rudders, too. Or at least, they should (it's called project management). And they should have long terms goals and strategies. And they should communicate those.
FC has pretty clearly define objectives, I think.
Mike
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 10:21 -0500, Don Levey wrote:
In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM database before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath.
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 10:21 -0500, Don Levey wrote:
In another message someone suggested reading the current RPM database before an reinstallation upgrade and making sure to install those packages. That would eliminate a goodly amount of time from my upgrade procedures, and a tremendous amount of pain. Ideally something would detect my configurations for those programs and save them out somewhere, but I'm not holding my breath.
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
--
That makes sense (assuming that /opt is a separate partition...). What I'm thinking of, though, are RPMs that I've pulled off of official repositories and installed, ones that aren't in the list of packages presented during an install. Come to think of it, even if they *were* presented during installation, that wouldn't be as useful as I'd still need to go through the list to pick and choose.
What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database, creating a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
-Don
Hi;
Last time I took this long to say "Goodbye", I ended up with an extra child.
On Wed, 2007-02-21 at 18:29 -0500, Kwan Lowe wrote:
He's kind of slow on the draw if he just noticed that fedora is a bleeding edge distribution and not particularly stable. New development has to be tested somewhere.
ESR has always been a lot of hot air. He's an attention whore.
He is some thing of a gas bag, isn't he. :D
I've had the misfortune of hearing him speak at our local LUG. Besides being the most arrogant SOB I've met in my 37 years, he implied in his speech that he was somehow responsible for the Linux revolution and apparently forcing all the Fortune100 companies to switch to Linux.
Thank god he'll no longer claim to be a Fedora user. It's sort of the same thing as Hannibal Lechter or Jeffrey Dahmer being in your dining club.
--
- The Digital Hermit http://www.digitalhermit.com
- Unix and Linux Solutions kwan@digitalhermit.com
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 02:52 +1100, Steffen Kluge wrote:
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the Fedora project.
I would tend to agree with you, if I hadn't had major run-ins with Apple Inc. back in the very early eighties. Sure, good software (albeit expensive) and good hardware (albeit expensive, half stolen and the closed)... it's the company's Gestapo mindset pathology that I have major experience, and resultant concerns, with.
I started the Bay Area Apple Users Group, in the Johnston Space Center area south of Houston, TX. We grew to 150 members, which is darn respectable for a local user group of any kind. Apple Inc. started up the "Apple Core" national Apple, Inc. coordinated user group, complete with a slick magazine. I got a letter from them demanding I enroll my group into their fold, or suffer a lawsuit demanding I remove the word "Apple" from our user group name, and that I would be personally sued. Enrolling the group would have entailed me collecting dues to forward to them. WTF? We had no dues, I set it up that way and that was all there was to it.
So, I wrote back to them, threatening to boycott their local dealer, and to contact the local news media to publicize our action and the reasons why. I noted that we had Astronauts and their family members in our group (remember Lord British??) so if they thought for a moment that they would survive that kind of press, to bring it on.
A few years later, when I checked with each of our members, they had moved onto the IBM XT. Everyone of them. I did as well. I laughed my ass of while watching the Apple ][ become the Apple ]I[, the Lisa, the Mac, the Mac Plus, and at each stage the former user got blown completely off. Every time. That is their pathology. They maintain complete control over hardware and when the next new thing comes along, the old platform is tossed over the side with alarming speed, and their users with it. It's all about the "Vision of Jobs", and buttkiss to their user/customer base. My first Apple product was one of the garage built machines, so I have watched them for a long long time. Great system, great OS, abusive corporate ethics. according to my perspectives, Ric
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
/opt should really only be used for self contained bundles.
IE you could put something like TeXLive in /opt (and many universities do just that) or Java in /opt etc.
Often it is /opt/vendor/product/version - so that multiple *self contained* versions can be parallel installed.
If packages in /opt are installed by rpm then they need to use an rpm database located on /opt that is not the system rpm database - at which point, the benefits of using rpm pretty much disappear. A tarball with an md5sum list is then more practical.
What would be *nice* would be if you could say -
rpm database A is system database. rpm database B is /opt database.
Packages in B can have their dependencies filled by A but packages installed in A can NOT have their dependencies filled by packages in B.
packages in B can not install files outside of /opt Configuration option - packages in B can not install suid root binaries (that's actually easy, both the outside of /opt and suid issue - make /opt owned by a non root user that owns the rpm database and uses rpm to install into that database - then the OS refuses to install suid root files)
All that needs to happen for that to work now is rpm needs to be able to check for dependency satisfaction in a database other than the target database. I suppose library paths would be an issue for .so files - and the users path would be an issue as well.
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 02:52 +1100, Steffen Kluge wrote:
On 22/02/2007, at 2:06 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
Macs do a nice trick. Aside from upgrading the same machine, if you buy a new Mac can connect your old one via firewire, boot it as a firewire target (they all do that) and it will migrate all your old settings (users/passwords etc.) and programs over. A new Intel Mac will even migrate older PPC programs over and continue to run them. That's a tough act to follow.
I wish you hadn't said this, it makes me butt in to a thread everybody has stopped reading anyway...
I have a lot of respect for ESR, he's been one of the most vocal and influential campaigners of Linux, and open source in general. I think we (the open source community) do owe him a fair share of our current status and credibility.
It makes me sad to see a letter like this from him. It was clearly written in a state of anger, and lacks all of his usual eloquence and sharp logic. He obviously got fed up to a bursting point.
I'm not going to even mention any of his particular arguments (other than saying that RPM is brilliant, just rule in those sloppy packagers), however I must say I've been harbouring doubts about the future of Red Hat and Fedora myself. I can't really point my finger at anything specific, but let me start by saying that I've been a Linux-only user for about 13 years, much of that with RH/FC. And so has most of my household. In the past couple of years this turf has been invaded from two sides, though.
Firstly, I replaced my firewall and Internet exposed servers with OpenBSD boxes a couple of years ago. The OpenBSD camp are stuck-up and hostile bunch, but with the sheer number of security patches my Linux boxes required on a regular basis I just didn't feel comfortable anymore to put them in the first line.
Secondly, the desktops. I've immensely enjoyed the Linux game, making the impossible happen, sticking it up to them (you know who), even playing as an equal in a corporate Windows/Exchange environment. It had cost me a lot of time and sweat but it was worth it.
I'm getting older though, my days seem to get shorter and I need to get stuff done. There isn't a lot of time for tinkering and fixing stuff on the spot anymore. I needed something that just works most of the time, without debugging. I've become a user, and as such joined the rest of my family. My family had morphed into a Mac OS X community some time ago (Linux was too hard and Windows was out of the question), so I finally joined them and am now using Tiger on a Mac as my primary desktop.
After those two invasions I'm still running Linux on my corporate desktop at work and on a few servers at home, and don't intent to change that. But for day-to-day desktop/media/end-user stuff I've pretty much given up on Linux. Now, you could blame that on Fedora, but I don't think it would have turned out any different if I had been using another distro. In the end, user experience wins, and Apple appears to be the only player that fully groks this.
Of course, Apple have an unfair advantage, they make their own hardware...
Please don't take this post as a pro-Apple rant, I was just trying to express that people (other than just ESR) can become frustrated at various aspects of a home computing environment that doesn't give the user a star to steer by but seems to be chaotic and rudderless all the time. I will certainly keep open-minded and closely follow the Fedora project.
Cheers Steffen.
I am amused by this whole discussion , somewhat reminiscent of the argument I got what I said FC6 was not "up to snuff". By the way I have had the same dependency missing problems under OS X using fink (really apt-get under the hood).
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest military and a number of other counties' leaders are willing to make deals when promised access to the US econmy (thiugh they seem to usually end up getting screwed when they do this).
Oh I agree the recent FTA between US and Australia is purely in americas favour and sweet F-ALL for Australians, I am disgusted the Australian Govt signed the deal. I don't deal with US and wont until they 'fair up' However the FTA does no require me to bow down to US law.
Imagine the nightmare... every person of every country would have to know the laws of every other country, including those 500 population countries nobody has ever heard of, just so they wont infringe, uh no way...
In addition a US citizen providing the URL of the livna repository is committing an offence (The 2600 magazine case)
Thats a resident of US, I'm not :) If I did that, the worse that could happen, in US is that a US court could order any post I made that is located on a US server be removed from the US server, they cant order removal from a EU or AU one.
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws. For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members as well.
Australian laws are based on the UK system, precendences set in the UK courts have far greater weight then precendences set in US and have done so for many years, apart from the FTA which obviously was a suck deal to keep someone happy about something, the rest was a joke to advantage US and I cant wait for a change in Govt (likely this year) to fix the wrong doings (since the opposition was completely against it).
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 11:30:02 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Tim wrote: If I have to, I will, it will be in the form of by a Queens Counsel the very second the US attempts to enforce any of their laws upon me, they will be challenged in the High Court to prove the time and date when my country became a legal territory of America. :)
Unless you are just snatched off the street by the CIA and then send to Syria for interrogation where the Syrians have promised (wink wink) not to torture you.
hahahaha yeah :) with the pending change of govt here they wouldnt get away with it like lil johnny howard is letting things drag on. Just like for 5 years our govt has allowed the US to detain an as yet to-be-tried alledged terrorist who is still legally an Australian citizen, I couldnt give a damn about it, but try him, if hes guilty of terrorist activities the US can execute the bastard for all i care, but lets have a verdict, see the evidence and be done with it. It's all good and great to say we have the evidence, well time to STFU and put up I think.
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Mike McCarty wrote:
When the Constitution of these USA was ratified, the Federal Govt was given authority to govern your land and exercise authority over it in certain respects and by certain means.
OK, then I declare as at the time and date of this message in UTC, I posses governing rights over all states and territories of america :)
*holds about as much standing as the US has over the country... so what the hell LOL :P
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 12:55 -0800, Michael A Peters wrote:
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 14:22 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
I think it might be wise to consider the old Caldera notion of using /opt to contain all the goodies that you post install and wish to be left alone. Then you merely fresh install the core apps while leaving /opt (and /home /root) alone. It's worth a thought. Ric
/opt should really only be used for self contained bundles.
That is sideways what I was getting out. Suppose I wanted to install xmame and bunch of rom files. (arcade games) That could be considered a bundle that I don't want tampered with?
IE you could put something like TeXLive in /opt (and many universities do just that) or Java in /opt etc.
I put java there myself, I see your point. Great minds!
Often it is /opt/vendor/product/version - so that multiple *self contained* versions can be parallel installed.
If packages in /opt are installed by rpm then they need to use an rpm database located on /opt that is not the system rpm database - at which point, the benefits of using rpm pretty much disappear. A tarball with an md5sum list is then more practical.
What would be *nice* would be if you could say -
rpm database A is system database. rpm database B is /opt database.
Packages in B can have their dependencies filled by A but packages installed in A can NOT have their dependencies filled by packages in B.
packages in B can not install files outside of /opt Configuration option - packages in B can not install suid root binaries (that's actually easy, both the outside of /opt and suid issue - make /opt owned by a non root user that owns the rpm database and uses rpm to install into that database - then the OS refuses to install suid root files)
Wow, you HAVE thought this through.
All that needs to happen for that to work now is rpm needs to be able to check for dependency satisfaction in a database other than the target database. I suppose library paths would be an issue for .so files - and the users path would be an issue as well.
IMHO that would be a saving grace for Fedora to do something like that. It would sure save what hair I have left. Ric
From: "Mike McCarty" Mike.McCarty@sbcglobal.net
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
[snip]
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws. For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members as well.
We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region codes, etc. on their own.
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Then FOAD. {^_^}
*yawn*
I had not realised this list had so many self appointed moderator wannabies, nobody holds a gun at your head making you read the thread. so no, you fuck off and die!
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, jdow wrote:
From: "Mike McCarty" Mike.McCarty@sbcglobal.net
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Feb 23, 2007 at 09:29:47 +1000, Res res@ausics.net wrote:
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Alan wrote:
Yes, but again the US cant enforce its laws against other countries. it is not the world govt/world police, and about time they woke up smelt the damned coffee and realised that.
Unfortunately for the rest of the world, it can because it has the largest
Fortunately or unfortunately, as one's viewpoint is.
The Federal Govt of the USA has jurisdiction over the entire face of the Earth except within the States, because the US Constitution says so. That's how the US Govt arrested Manuel Noriega.
[snip]
Most likely US corporate interests have influenced your country's laws. For example if you are in the EU, members are supposed to be enacting DMCA like laws. Software patents could still end up being forced upon EU members as well.
We really need to repeal (at least portions of) the DMCA. It won't be long, I trow. The RIAA fought tooth and nail to prevent radio stations from playing music. When the RIAA and corresponding TV (forget the acronym) and movie associations figure out how to make money from easily available stuff, then we'll see the end of encryption, region codes, etc. on their own.
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Then FOAD. {^_^}
Mike McCarty wrote:
Two- letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
What? I thought they attract lazy people who don't like to type a lot. Or that they still work just as well now after being invented on 110 baud mechanical teletype terminals.
On Saturday 24 February 2007, Les Mikesell wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:
Two- letter commands don't affect security, and neither does guru mentality.
Two-letter command attract those with "guru mentality".
What? I thought they attract lazy people who don't like to type a lot. Or that they still work just as well now after being invented on 110 baud mechanical teletype terminals.
Something that new, Les? ISTR the old tty 15's we had used to run at 75 baud, in baudot code. 5 bit + a shift each way.
Don Levey wrote:
What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database, creating a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
I actually did something similar last time I upgraded.
Before I upgraded, I ran rpm -qa --qf "%{name}.%{arch}\n" > packages
Afterwards, for i in `cat packages` ; do rpm -q $i ; done | grep "is not installed"\ | cut -d\ -f2 presented me with a list of packages that were not installed that I could have fed to yum.
I've never used kickstart (I've never had enough computers to upgrade at once to make it worthwhile), but I understand that I could have just given kickstart a list of those packages, now that you can enable other repos at install time.
(Of course, this wouldn't help with renamed packages, but the --qf option meant that "packages" didn't contain any version numbers, so the script didn't try to install old versions of existing packages.)
Hope this helps,
James.
On Sat, 2007-02-24 at 08:40 +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
Don Levey wrote:
What if... there were a way of going through the RPM database, creating a list, and presenting that to some sort of kickstart routine?
I actually did something similar last time I upgraded.
Before I upgraded, I ran rpm -qa --qf "%{name}.%{arch}\n" > packages
Afterwards, for i in `cat packages` ; do rpm -q $i ; done | grep "is not installed"\ | cut -d\ -f2 presented me with a list of packages that were not installed that I could have fed to yum.
...
Hope this helps,
Yes it does - thanks! The next upgrade should be coming soon for me. -Don
On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 15:48 -0800, jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
I think Italy is a better country. Watch this one and see for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4KlwFovFUo&NR
<eyebrow waggles> Ric
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
-- ======================================================================= Never use "etc." -- it makes people think there is more where there is not or that there is not space to list it all, etc. ======================================================================= Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Temlakos
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
---- this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
Craig
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud .
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
A world without Linux would be...(fill in the blank)[obviously a less good place]
Does this mean we should stop trying to improve Linux?
Logical consistency would argue you are saying yes [ie. because something has done well, that means it escapes criticism]. I say no.
America has done well. Can it not do better? Perhaps you say no. I say yes. I think it needs to really, for it's own sake.
Same with M$ft. Should people just accept the way it is because it has done well, or should they look for a superior alternative? It depends I guess on how you define "well".
You like Bush. My standards are higher. This does not mean I don't agree with you. It's just that my standards are higher.
javajunkie wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud .
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
A world without Linux would be...(fill in the blank)[obviously a less good place]
Does this mean we should stop trying to improve Linux?
Logical consistency would argue you are saying yes [ie. because something has done well, that means it escapes criticism]. I say no.
America has done well. Can it not do better? Perhaps you say no. I say yes. I think it needs to really, for it's own sake.
Same with M$ft. Should people just accept the way it is because it has done well, or should they look for a superior alternative? It depends I guess on how you define "well".
You like Bush. My standards are higher. This does not mean I don't agree with you. It's just that my standards are higher.
Your question is incomplete. I don't know what your "standards" mean. I don't know what /you/ would consider "an improvement."
Temlakos
Craig White wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
Craig
+1
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Temlakos wrote:
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Temlakos
Since when the Fedora project is a political discussion forum? I do not care for who you voted for or will vote for, there are non-americans here, you seem to have overlooked this too. Take this elsewhere!
- -- (o< Thierry Sayegh De Bellis, RHCE //\ http://glossolalie.com V_/_ Fingerprint: 9976 11FE D9C6 8C67 6242 7BB1 6466 3F1D 56ED 7D5A
David Boles wrote:
Craig White wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
this is not a political discussion forum - take it elsewhere.
Craig
+1
+1
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
I'll give you this much: Australia would have given it the good old college try. I'm not likely to forget the Aussie's part in the Pacific theater of WWII.
How is this linux related?
Really how?
If you want to discuss how American actions around 1868 destabilized the Japanese government allowing those more militarily minded to take power with the promise that Japan would never become Hong Kong...
Granted we were kind enough to drop nukes on civilians for good measure before kindly establishing democracy.
Yeah sure my family members were in the U.S. navy at the time and I am lucky to even be alive. Maybe the nukes even gave me life by stopping the fighting and sparing my grandfather. And if the nukes would have been on Tokyo, I wouldn't be here today.
It's not untrue though to say the whole thing could have been prevented by both sides. Why don't you take the political cheering elsewhere.
You can be proud of the body count should you so choose. I'd prefer there wasn't one because if either side had been a little more lethal, I would not get to enjoy fedora.
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 13:55 +0900, javajunkie wrote:
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
I'll give you this much: Australia would have given it the good old college try. I'm not likely to forget the Aussie's part in the Pacific theater of WWII.
How is this linux related?
Really how?
If you want to discuss how American actions around 1868 destabilized the Japanese government allowing those more militarily minded to take power with the promise that Japan would never become Hong Kong...
Granted we were kind enough to drop nukes on civilians for good measure before kindly establishing democracy.
Yeah sure my family members were in the U.S. navy at the time and I am lucky to even be alive. Maybe the nukes even gave me life by stopping the fighting and sparing my grandfather. And if the nukes would have been on Tokyo, I wouldn't be here today.
It's not untrue though to say the whole thing could have been prevented by both sides. Why don't you take the political cheering elsewhere.
You can be proud of the body count should you so choose. I'd prefer there wasn't one because if either side had been a little more lethal, I would not get to enjoy fedora.
---- I am an American.
I could have commented on the video but didn't think it appropriate for this list. I could have commented on the concept that people actually voted for George W Bush but didn't think it appropriate for this list. I could comment on the concept that this great nation is the only one who has actually employed nuclear weapons, continues to detain prisoners in stealth but didn't think it appropriate for this list.
Those who are not living in America should note that not all of us who do, embrace the referenced movie, this president, some of our past and current misdeeds but in the end, this discussion isn't appropriate for this list.
Craig
Steffen Kluge kluge@dotnet.org writes:
I know the mantra. I've been chanting it myself.
Mantra? The only mantra I hear all the time is this:
Ubuntu, Ubuntu, Ubuntu...
:)
Regards Ingemar
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is certainly OT for this list. -- ======================================================================= One Bell System - it sometimes works. ======================================================================= Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is certainly OT for this list.
--
One Bell System - it sometimes works.
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net
Aaron:
I quite agree with you. This video goes way too far! but as a favor, can we Puhleeeeese let this thread die! If I really cared about anyone's opinion but mine, I would surely find them out and we could have a real good time patting ourselves on the back for the actions of our ancestors.
Scott
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 08:48 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is certainly OT for this list.
Same thing about Stallman. He did a good and Right Thing (tm) but to ram "GNU-Linux" down everyone's throat, like he counts and Linus eats worms, jerks me off no end.
Everyone kindly append <OT> to remain socially polite. :) Ric
On Thu, 2007-03-01 at 07:25 -0800, oldman wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Wed, 2007-02-28 at 22:04 -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 23:15 -0500, Temlakos wrote:
Aaron Konstam wrote:
On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
> It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video
first.
>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
> Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
I watched the video which was a propaganda piece which would make the Bush administration proud . I am not sure why one should watch it.
Well, /I/ recommend it, to anyone who forgets what a force for good America has been in this world.
I voted for both Presidents Bush, and I should very much like to vote for Newt Gingrich, if anyone can persuade him to stand for election as President of the United States.
Here is my challenge to you, Aaron: Can you refute that video? Can you deny that without America, any of the newscasts in that video would /not/ have come to pass?
Australia would have picked up the slack. <g> Ric
Well here is the thing. I am a Jew. I ma proud of the high percentage of Nobel Prize winners are Jews. But I would embarrassed and repelled by a video that took the same attitude about Jews that the video took about America. That is, thinks that would not have happened if the Jews did not exist I mean. The video was arrogant and self-serving. And is certainly OT for this list.
--
One Bell System - it sometimes works.
Aaron Konstam telephone: (210) 656-0355 e-mail: akonstam@sbcglobal.net
Aaron:
I quite agree with you. This video goes way too far! but as afavor, can we Puhleeeeese let this thread die! If I really cared about anyone's opinion but mine, I would surely find them out and we could have a real good time patting ourselves on the back for the actions of our ancestors.
Mine probably didn't pay their tab back in Ireland and got tossed ashore here. :) Ric
On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the loop" :)
Rui
On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 09:21 +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the loop" :)
Rui
Hi, Rui, What is that script for firefox, or where can I obtain it? I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned before.
Regards, Les H
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
Les wrote:
On Sun, 2007-03-04 at 09:21 +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
On Seg, 2007-02-26 at 17:19 -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
jdow wrote:
It's time to stop the political hate fest. But do watch this video first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwAtNILh6uY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eyoutu...
Requires FLASH, which I don't have (and don't want) installed. So, sorry, I can't watch it.
Mike
There's an user script for greasemonkey that changes youtube pages in order to let you use mplayerplugin for viewing inside the browser.
There's also a few firefox extensions that allow you to download the video, and then you can play it with mplayer!
I hate flash video, but at least with this options I'm not "out of the loop" :)
Rui
Hi, Rui, What is that script for firefox, or where can I obtain it? I'm sorry if I missed it somewhere, but I don't recall seeing it mentioned before.
Regards, Les H
I don't know about the greasemonkey script (it should be found at greasemonkey.com and you'd need to install the greasemonkey Firefox extension too) but there is a Firefox extension called video downloader that you can get by going to the extensions page at mozilla.org and finding the "most popular/most downloaded extensions".
Scott
-
Aaron Konstam -
agraham -
Alan Cox -
Andy Green -
Arthur Pemberton -
Bill Case -
Bruno Wolff III -
Charles Curley -
Christopher Mocock -
Craig White -
David -
David Fletcher -
Don Levey -
Ed Greshko -
Gene Heskett -
Howard Howell -
Ian Astley -
Ingemar Nilsson -
James Wilkinson -
javajunkie -
jdow -
John Wendel -
Kwan Lowe -
Les Mikesell -
M. Fioretti -
Martin Marques -
Michael A. Peters -
Mike McCarty -
Oldman -
Res -
Ric Moore -
Richard England -
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra -
Scott van Looy -
Steffen Kluge -
Temlakos -
Thierry -
Tim -
Tom Rivers