I believe this might have come up earlier, but I would like to once again encourage all those users who are reluctant about making the leap from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 (now that the end of the maintenance cycle for F14 is rapidly approaching) to take a good look at LXDE. I installed it for the first time ever today, installed Compiz, fiddled around, and eventually got more or less back to the workflow I had under Gnome 2.
LXDE can easily be set up to have essentially the same look-and-feel as Gnome 2. Also, it's lightweight design seems to have led to a good performance increase at least on my machine. One big problem is that there (to my knowledge) seems to be no easy way to set up keybindings in LXDE itself. If you install Compiz (and I believe you should), you can of course try to use the support for keybinding there instead. I also had to run dhclient from the terminal at first boot in order to get a network connection, but I believe this could be mitigated by just installing NetworkManager afterwards.
Give it a go!
Best regards,
Christopher
Why LXDE instead of XFCE? Just curious...
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Christopher Svanefalk < christopher.svanefalk@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe this might have come up earlier, but I would like to once again encourage all those users who are reluctant about making the leap from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 (now that the end of the maintenance cycle for F14 is rapidly approaching) to take a good look at LXDE. I installed it for the first time ever today, installed Compiz, fiddled around, and eventually got more or less back to the workflow I had under Gnome 2.
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Pedro Francisco pedrogfrancisco@gmail.comwrote:
Why LXDE instead of XFCE? Just curious...
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:35 PM, Christopher Svanefalk < christopher.svanefalk@gmail.com> wrote:
I believe this might have come up earlier, but I would like to once again encourage all those users who are reluctant about making the leap from Gnome 2 to Gnome 3 (now that the end of the maintenance cycle for F14 is rapidly approaching) to take a good look at LXDE. I installed it for the first time ever today, installed Compiz, fiddled around, and eventually got more or less back to the workflow I had under Gnome 2.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back.
Have you tried LXDE as well? How would you say they differ?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 8:13 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Jeff Wrote:
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd >never go back.
I tried XFCE also and found it to be so close to the familiar Gnome 2 that I also cannot see any reason to look back. It is quite responsive and seems to provide the capability I need. I am unimpressed with all this "tablet" look and feel, and found that it took me longer to find the applications that I wanted to run than with the previous environment. There seemed to be little ability to modify the environment (without resorting to editing system files to accomplish things like smaller desktop icons...), navigation seemed clumsy and circuitous, and it's unclear if this brings F15 any closer to more universal acceptance than with the previous Gnome 2 desktop. I have not tried LXFE so I don't know how it compares.
Herb
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
Yes, my dyslexia ... sorry. No offense intended.
-----Original Message----- From: users-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org [mailto:users-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org] On Behalf Of Joe Zeff Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:06 PM To: Community support for Fedora users Subject: Re: LXDE is an acceptable substitute for Gnome 2
On 09/15/2011 11:47 AM, Smith, Herb wrote:
Jeff Wrote:
No, "Jeff" did not. My name is "Joe Zeff," and I'll thank you, sir, to get it right in the future. This time I'll accept that it was a careless accident, but not if it happens again. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On 09/15/2011 12:07 PM, Smith, Herb wrote:
Yes, my dyslexia ... sorry. No offense intended.
There was a time when I'd take out the Flamex 6000 and go for excessive damage on a first "offense," but I've mellowed over the years. As I wrote, I presumed it was an accident. Next time, of course, I'll discuss the issue with OADS: http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/OADS/anvil_chorus.html
<snicker!>
-----Original Message----- From: users-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org [mailto:users-bounces@lists.fedoraproject.org] On Behalf Of Joe Zeff Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 2:33 PM To: Community support for Fedora users Subject: Re: LXDE is an acceptable substitute for Gnome 2
On 09/15/2011 12:07 PM, Smith, Herb wrote:
Yes, my dyslexia ... sorry. No offense intended.
There was a time when I'd take out the Flamex 6000 and go for excessive damage on a first "offense," but I've mellowed over the years. As I wrote, I presumed it was an >accident. Next time, of course, I'll discuss the issue with OADS: http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/OADS/anvil_chorus.html
<snicker!>
Glad you've mellowed... I had been holding off commenting on the Gnome 3 issue and actually just wanted to give a +1 to your comment about XFCE.
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 12:28:54 +0100 Pedro Francisco pedrogfrancisco@gmail.com wrote:
Why LXDE instead of XFCE? Just curious...
The first time I tried XFCE, the rat and the ugly font logo, the icons, all the GUI environment was looking cheap & somewhat childish. I was not found of the file browser, the email clients (claws) and the terminal, etc - of course, this is 100% subjective, because it's only a matter of taste, and first impression.
XFCE made me feel the poor Gnome2 brother (it was before Gnome3), and I am not versed in DE customization.
Then I tried LXDE. From the first second, I liked what I saw on my screen. That was minimalist, modern and neutral. I liked the file manager (pcmanfm) and the default mail client (sylpheed) at once.
I probably spent more time learning how to configure LXDE, than I would, if I had kept using XFCE, but I am happy now. I am affected by a panel bug: it crashes when I use FF (there no current LXDE panel maintainer), thank to Christoph Wickert on Fedora, I found a workaround editing the open box configuration file.
The Fedora LXDE Spin is also really great (if not the best spin) for my taste. It's neutral and it has a good balance of easiness and completeness. Each new release add something great, and I am sensitive to these details. Check the new Yum Extender on F-15!
http://www.yum-extender.org/cms/
Most of the people fall back to XFCE. I think they are being conservative. There is probably more GUI options in XFCE - it supports transparency, and the development might in a better state (it's an older project) than LXDE?
Well, I am mainly talking about details here (and those can be changed), but I am an end user. Ideally, I would rather use a CLI than GUI environment, but the trade off between the learning curve vs. the self-satisfaction is too great for my usage of a computer.
That's what LXDE and possibly XFCE are satisfactory - they give me impression (still subjective) of a relative freedom using a GUI. I dislike (as in "loath") OSX and Windows for the opposite reason. As for Gnome3 and Unity, it has became the same: The users must adapt to the DE. It's not anymore a set of tools put together to help him, it's a complete environment designed for him.
That was my review of LXDE.
Why LXDE instead of XFCE? Just curious...
[snip]
That's what LXDE and possibly XFCE are satisfactory - they give me impression (still subjective) of a relative freedom using a GUI. I dislike (as in "loath") OSX and Windows for the opposite reason. As for Gnome3 and Unity, it has became the same: The users must adapt to the DE. It's not anymore a set of tools put together to help him, it's a complete environment designed for him.
And I'm curious why doesn't anyone even mention KDE as an alternative for Gnome3? As it seems, these days KDE4 is by far the most advanced, most mature and most configurable desktop environment out there.
If you want to adapt the DE to your needs (as opposed to adapting yourself to a new DE), KDE seems to be the best possible choice.
I really don't see why Gnome2 lovers and Gnome3 haters fall back to XFCE and LXDE automatically, without even trying the KDE spin... Is there some silent collective KDE-boycotting in place here or what?
Best, :-) Marko
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:19:05 +0200 Marko Vojinovic wrote:
I really don't see why Gnome2 lovers and Gnome3 haters fall back to XFCE and LXDE automatically, without even trying the KDE spin... Is there some silent collective KDE-boycotting in place here or what?
I have a theory, based on the reason I use FVWM ahead of all of them: The gnome and KDE developers have now both exhibited an extreme propensity for jerking the rug out from under folks. People are looking for something they won't have to relearn every time developers get a bee in their bonnet. That pretty much totally excludes both gnome and KDE from any consideration.
I strongly suspect both XFCE and LXDE will wind up having the same thing happen, they both seem to exhibit evidence of being actively developed, which means bees could arrive in new bonnets at any moment :-).
I'll stick with FVWM and sample the new version of whatever is standard in fedora on each release just long enough to use it to get mt FVWM environment back.
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:19:05 +0200 Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
And I'm curious why doesn't anyone even mention KDE as an alternative for Gnome3? As it seems, these days KDE4 is by far the most advanced, most mature and most configurable desktop environment out there.
On my old hardware, KDE is a resource hog. The DE runs like it is moving through molasses. On newer hardware it probably isn't noticeable. And for the short time I did run it, it was different enough that there was a learning curve. LXDE and XFCE are probably much closer to Gnome 2 in behavior.
I'm using the Gnome 3 fallback mode on F15, and my DE has snappy response. I suspect the same would be true of LXDE or XFCE.
LXDE runs way smoother than Gnome 2 in my experience.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 4:08 PM, stan gryt2@q.com wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:19:05 +0200 Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
And I'm curious why doesn't anyone even mention KDE as an alternative for Gnome3? As it seems, these days KDE4 is by far the most advanced, most mature and most configurable desktop environment out there.
On my old hardware, KDE is a resource hog. The DE runs like it is moving through molasses. On newer hardware it probably isn't noticeable. And for the short time I did run it, it was different enough that there was a learning curve. LXDE and XFCE are probably much closer to Gnome 2 in behavior.
I'm using the Gnome 3 fallback mode on F15, and my DE has snappy response. I suspect the same would be true of LXDE or XFCE. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
I strongly suspect both XFCE and LXDE will wind up having the same thing happen, they both seem to exhibit evidence of being actively developed, which means bees could arrive in new bonnets at any moment :-).
Xfce has evolved rather than go for mad redesigns. Xfce today is certainly quite a bit different to much older versions, and it's migrated bit by bit away from its CDE style origins
The XFCE design process itself doesn't have a "lets write another new desktop and give it the same name" procedure, its a bit more evolutionary.
Alan
On 09/15/2011 01:13 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back.
Agreed. I initially went to XFCE because I didn't like Gnome3.
My reaction is the same. The desktop settings of XFCE are really easy to modify and I have it the way I want it. I plan to stay with XFCE as well.
I haven't tried LXDE, but this thread is making me want to take a look at that, too.
I really don't see why Gnome2 lovers and Gnome3 haters fall back to XFCE and LXDE automatically, without even trying the KDE spin... Is there some silent collective KDE-boycotting in place here or what?
Xfce is basically what Gnome 2 should have been, but perhaps with a few rougher edges. KDE is a very different experience. Going Gnome 2 to XFCE feels like switching between different releases of a desktop rather than a complete desktop changeover.
There are lots of desktops to try - E for example shouldn't be overlooked either.
I still remember KDE3->4 and I'm afraid after that I don't trust there won't be a similarly catastrophic KDE4-5 8(
Alan
On 09/16/2011 09:30 AM, Charlie Brune wrote:
On 09/15/2011 01:13 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back.
Agreed. I initially went to XFCE because I didn't like Gnome3.
My reaction is the same. The desktop settings of XFCE are really easy to modify and I have it the way I want it. I plan to stay with XFCE as well.
I haven't tried LXDE, but this thread is making me want to take a look at that, too.
I've worked with both and both are more "Gnome-2-ish". IMHO, I think XFCE starts out being a bit more like Gnome 2, but both can be tweaked fairly easily.
By default, LXDE only has one taskbar (at the bottom) and it can get a bit cluttered, but adding a second one at the top and moving things between the taskbars isn't hard.
XFCE's default is two taskbars, a full-width one at the top with currently running stuff (workspace switcher, clock, icon bar, etc.) and a short one at the bottom center with shortcuts to often-used tasks on it (terminal, browser, file manager, etc.). I think I'm sticking with XFCE, but switching would be no great hardship.
I concur with the general impression of Gnome-3--it appears targeted at tablets and it is a right pain to use in its default configuration on anything that requires a trackpad or mouse. You need serious graphics hardware to make it go at any reasonable speed. Configuring it is certainly no walk in the park and the need to add about ten add-ons to make it tolerable is downright ridiculous.
A note to any Gnome developers that may be out there lurking on this list: Change for the sake of change is bloody short sighted. The already incredibly convoluted configuration process of Gnome 2 has grown more complex by an order of magnitude. It is not usable on a laptop with a trackpad. It takes too many resources. You haven't even come close to creating a usable GUI out-of-the-box here and succeeded only in alienating most previous Gnome users. Well done! You should work for the US government or the DMV. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, C2 Hosting ricks@nerd.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 22643734 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - BASIC is the Computer Science version of `Scientific Creationism' - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On 09/16/2011 09:30 AM, Charlie Brune wrote:
On 09/15/2011 01:13 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back.
Agreed. I initially went to XFCE because I didn't like Gnome3.
My reaction is the same. The desktop settings of XFCE are really easy to modify and I have it the way I want it. I plan to stay with XFCE as well.
I haven't tried LXDE, but this thread is making me want to take a look at that, too.
I am pretty happy with my switch to XFCE too. However, opening dialogs and windows is still dramatically slower under F15 vs F14. So what else changed? Is Gnome actually multiple layers with the window manager we switched out for XFCE only being the top layer of the stack? Is there a layer above the xorg X server that is slowing things down? So a part of the revamped Gnome is still there regardless. I ask because the gnome-system-monitor reports that it is running Gnome 3.0.1 even though it is running XCFE. Perhaps the slow dialog creation is unrelated to the windowing system...? I hate having to try and do performance analysis on open source applications to try and determine what the bottleneck is. The OS is supposed to just work. Not make my life miserable.
On 09/16/2011 06:19 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
If you want to adapt the DE to your needs (as opposed to adapting yourself to a new DE), KDE seems to be the best possible choice.
The first time I used XFCE after installing it, my desktop looked almost exactly the same way it had under Gnome 2. My wallpaper was the same, my panel was where I wanted it, with most of the icons I wanted right where they'd always been (I'd love to get rid of the Trash icon and Show Desktop icon, but aside from that, it's almost exactly the same.) and so on. Almost no learning curve. That's why I recommend it. Can KDE do the same?
On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 7:13 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/15/2011 11:03 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
I never really tried XFCE to be honest, guess someone else would have to give the verdict on that.
I use F14. As soon as I learned what Gnome3 was like I did some research and ended up with XFCE. Even if they make a version of Gnome3 that I don't find horrible I'd never go back. --
<shameless plug> Fuduntu[1] will be staying with Gnome 2 for the foreseeable future, while being on a F14 base with several upgrades to what we deem stable versions of certain software (latest stable Kernel, web browsers, etc) so that users who dislike Gnome 3 but love Fedora have a distro which provides both Gnome 2 and new updates. Check it out if that sounds like you. </shameless plug>
[1] - http://www.fuduntu.org/
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 19:11:12 +0100 Noah Hall noah.hall@fuduntu.org wrote:
<shameless plug> Fuduntu[1] will be staying with Gnome 2 for the foreseeable future, while being on a F14 base with several upgrades to what we deem stable versions of certain software (latest stable Kernel, web browsers, etc) so that users who dislike Gnome 3 but love Fedora have a distro which provides both Gnome 2 and new updates. Check it out if that sounds like you. </shameless plug>
[1] - http://www.fuduntu.org/
Out of curiosity:
* Are you applying fixes and security updates to gnome2 packages?
* do you have a bug tracker/source repo for your gnome2 packages?
* What do you plan on doing when F14 goes end of life? Are you going to provide security and bugfix updates for your distro after that?
kevin
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
Out of curiosity:
Are you applying fixes and security updates to gnome2 packages?
do you have a bug tracker/source repo for your gnome2 packages?
What do you plan on doing when F14 goes end of life? Are you going to
provide security and bugfix updates for your distro after that?
Well technically all you need to do is keep tracking the RHEL/Scientific Linux srpms. :) I think there is already a project based on Fedora alone out there (don't recall the name at the moment).
kevin
On Fri September 16 2011, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
LXDE runs way smoother than Gnome 2 in my experience.
FWIW, I'm running XFCE at home, mainly because I'm connecting through an SSH tunnel and using VNC to view my desktop at home and I need a very lightweight DE. I still have to drop the color depth to 64 colors in order to get a responsive desktop.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:20 PM, suvayu ali fatkasuvayu+linux@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Kevin Fenzi kevin@scrye.com wrote:
Out of curiosity:
Are you applying fixes and security updates to gnome2 packages?
do you have a bug tracker/source repo for your gnome2 packages?
What do you plan on doing when F14 goes end of life? Are you going to
provide security and bugfix updates for your distro after that?
Well technically all you need to do is keep tracking the RHEL/Scientific Linux srpms. :) I think there is already a project based on Fedora alone out there (don't recall the name at the moment).
This is exactly what we are planning to do :) At the moment, we are still using the version from F14 for now, but we are in motion to swap over soon. If we don't go down this path for various reasons, we will make changes as we see fit and host it ourselves, separate from our main repos so that other people can use them as they see fit. For more information, see http://www.fewt.com/2011/09/important-fuduntu-linux-announcement.html
On 16/09/11 14:03, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/16/2011 06:19 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
If you want to adapt the DE to your needs (as opposed to adapting yourself to a new DE), KDE seems to be the best possible choice.
The first time I used XFCE after installing it, my desktop looked almost exactly the same way it had under Gnome 2. My wallpaper was the same, my panel was where I wanted it, with most of the icons I wanted right where they'd always been (I'd love to get rid of the Trash icon and Show Desktop icon, but aside from that, it's almost exactly the same.) and so on. Almost no learning curve. That's why I recommend it. Can KDE do the same?
If I understand you can remove the trash icon, etc. via Settings > Desktop > Icons
You will probably want to keep Removable Devices though.
I have used XFCE for a long time, before that Window Maker. Gnome only to get back to familiar territory after a new install in the past. Now I can choose XFCE and that works for me with my configuration. My desktops are identical on both computers in use.
Bob
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:38:32 -0400 John Aldrich wrote:
FWIW, I'm running XFCE at home, mainly because I'm connecting through an SSH tunnel and using VNC to view my desktop at home and I need a very lightweight DE.
I use the nomachine.com nxclient and the freenx-server package (also through an ssh tunnel). Works remarkably well, much faster response (for me anyway) than VNC through the same connection. I'm also running FVWM however, which is also lightweight and no doubt helps with the remote access.
On 16/09/11 15:15, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/16/2011 11:53 AM, Bob Goodwin wrote:
If I understand you can remove the trash icon, etc. via Settings> Desktop> IconsYes. From the desktop, not the panel. I tried removing them from the panel but when I logged out and back in, there they were.
Do you have "xfce4-settings-manager" installed? I go there and in this case select Desktop, etc, as above. It configure the desktop with a few check marks. Mine is set to be blank unless I plug in a flash drive or such. Both computers work the same so it seems that should wok for you too.
Bob
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 7:03 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/16/2011 06:19 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
If you want to adapt the DE to your needs (as opposed to adapting yourself to a new DE), KDE seems to be the best possible choice.
The first time I used XFCE after installing it, my desktop looked almost exactly the same way it had under Gnome 2. My wallpaper was the same, my panel was where I wanted it, with most of the icons I wanted right where they'd always been (I'd love to get rid of the Trash icon and Show Desktop icon, but aside from that, it's almost exactly the same.) and so on. Almost no learning curve. That's why I recommend it. Can KDE do the same?
I tinkered with xfce this evening on an old laptop running f16 - I actually pretty well like xfce and it is pretty snappy on old hardware too, as well as being pretty configurable - the only initial irritation was that I could not set up scrolling and tapping on the touchpad - but adding stuff to the config file in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/50-synaptics.conf got things the way I wanted....
Certainly it was functionally useful and even compared to KDE on that machine which at the present time is pretty sluggish even with the faster kernel-3.1.0-0.rc6.git0.3.fc16 installed and running - so it was a breath of fresh air trying xfce on that machine - I have no doubt that KDE in f16 on a faster more up to date machine would do what I needed... but there is a choice of DEs which is nice.
On 09/16/2011 12:34 PM, Bob Goodwin wrote:
Do you have "xfce4-settings-manager" installed? I go there and in this case select Desktop, etc, as above. It configure the desktop with a few check marks.
The desktop was configured the way I wanted the first time I ran XFCE. It's the *PANEL* that won't cooperate, as I've written repeatedly. Answering a question I didn't ask instead of the one I did isn't helping any.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 8:03 PM, Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/16/2011 06:19 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
If you want to adapt the DE to your needs (as opposed to adapting yourself to a new DE), KDE seems to be the best possible choice.
The first time I used XFCE after installing it, my desktop looked almost exactly the same way it had under Gnome 2. My wallpaper was the same, my panel was where I wanted it, with most of the icons I wanted right where they'd always been (I'd love to get rid of the Trash icon and Show Desktop icon, but aside from that, it's almost exactly the same.) and so on. Almost no learning curve. That's why I recommend it. Can KDE do the same?
Well, you certainly can configure all that stuff to fit your taste. However, KDE will not pick up your Gnome settings automatically, so you need to configure it yourself, at least once.
That said, KDE is extremely flexible, and can be tweaked to suit anyones taste. This was precisely the reason why I went the KDE way instead of the Gnome way --- Gnome never offered enough flexibility to configure the DE.
So once you get it configured to suit your taste, there is no such thing as a "learning curve", since you are not expected to adapt your workflow to the DE, but rather adapt the DE to your previous workflow. KDE can certainly be tweaked to behave exactly like Gnome (apart from the Qt visual appearance instead of GTK). The only thing you need to put some effort into is this initial configuration. But that is also quite easy --- there is the "systemsettings" app which contains all configuration options you might imagine, and it is fairly easy to find your way around it.
Of course, if you want to use the advanced features of KDE (activities etc. --- which have never been present in Gnome2) you do have to learn how to use them, but that's something you would need to learn in Gnome3 as well, so it doesn't count as a drawback.
I admit I have never migrated from/to Gnome, so I cannot judge firsthand, but I have a feeling that it is much easier than what people generally expect. :-)
HTH, :-) Marko
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
I still remember KDE3->4 and I'm afraid after that I don't trust there won't be a similarly catastrophic KDE4-5 8(
I doubt that. KDE3 was based on a rather old and outgrown paradigm, and that was the main reason for rewriting KDE4 from scratch. Now after that is done, it will be just evolution for the forseeable future. AFAICT, devs are now happy with the codebase design, and do not feel the need to rewrite it again. It will be some time until this codebase becomes obsolete. ;-)
:-) Marko
On 16/09/11 15:48, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/16/2011 12:34 PM, Bob Goodwin wrote:
Do you have "xfce4-settings-manager" installed? I go there and in this case select Desktop, etc, as above. It configure the desktop with a few check marks.The desktop was configured the way I wanted the first time I ran XFCE. It's the *PANEL* that won't cooperate, as I've written repeatedly. Answering a question I didn't ask instead of the one I did isn't helping any.
Sorry, I misunderstood you. It was the clutter on the desktop that bothered me. There is an XFCE list and I've found them helpful.
Bob
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 4:08 PM, stan gryt2@q.com wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:19:05 +0200 Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
And I'm curious why doesn't anyone even mention KDE as an alternative for Gnome3? As it seems, these days KDE4 is by far the most advanced, most mature and most configurable desktop environment out there.
On my old hardware, KDE is a resource hog. The DE runs like it is moving through molasses. On newer hardware it probably isn't noticeable. And for the short time I did run it, it was different enough that there was a learning curve. LXDE and XFCE are probably much closer to Gnome 2 in behavior.
I'm using the Gnome 3 fallback mode on F15, and my DE has snappy response. I suspect the same would be true of LXDE or XFCE.
I do not expect KDE4 to take more resources than Gnome3, even when you turn on its desktop effects. That said, I do agree that it is more demanding than XFCE and LXDE. If you have old hardware it is certainly better to run something lightweight. But on such hardware I expect even Gnome2 to be slow. ;-)
The fallback of Gnome3 isn't really a DE, it is rather... well... a fallback, and it is expected to be lightweight, since it is intended to work on low-end hardware. I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone with such hardware to run KDE. But for those with more modern hardware, I think KDE is something worth looking into. ;-)
Best, :-) Marko
On 09/16/2011 12:48 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/16/2011 12:34 PM, Bob Goodwin wrote:
Do you have "xfce4-settings-manager" installed? I go there and in this case select Desktop, etc, as above. It configure the desktop with a few check marks.The desktop was configured the way I wanted the first time I ran XFCE. It's the *PANEL* that won't cooperate, as I've written repeatedly. Answering a question I didn't ask instead of the one I did isn't helping any.
Right click on the panel in question, Go to Panel->Panel Preferences, select the "Items" tab then select the items you want to delete and click the big "-" button. That should do it. Works for me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, C2 Hosting ricks@nerd.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 22643734 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward getting - - medicated for it. -- Jim Evarts (http://www.TopFive.com) - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
On 09/16/2011 02:32 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
Right click on the panel in question, Go to Panel->Panel Preferences, select the "Items" tab then select the items you want to delete and click the big "-" button. That should do it. Works for me.
I did. Long ago. It worked until I had to log out and back in, as I wrote before.
On Sep 16, 2011 4:07 PM, "stan" gryt2@q.com wrote:
On Fri, 16 Sep 2011 15:19:05 +0200 Marko Vojinovic vvmarko@gmail.com wrote:
And I'm curious why doesn't anyone even mention KDE as an alternative for Gnome3? As it seems, these days KDE4 is by far the most advanced, most mature and most configurable desktop environment out there.
On my old hardware, KDE is a resource hog. The DE runs like it is moving through molasses. On newer hardware it probably isn't noticeable.
Actually, I dont have the same experience. I have used KDE on my reeeeally slow laptop (after Gnome 3 was introduced), and it has been going very smooth thus far. I have been able to work on the machine with no more "slowness" than when using Gnome 3.
I really enjoy KDE now, although it took me a couple of short days to adjust I must admit.
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 09:57:26AM -0700, Rick Stevens wrote:
laptop with a trackpad. It takes too many resources. You haven't even
It should work perfectly fine with graphics hardware 3+ years old. Mine is 3.5 old or so. There were a few bugs (nvidia binary driver was slow first 2 weeks after the 3.0.0 release + some bugs in the alpha versions of GNOME 3.2), but graphically it doesn't require much. If it does, file bugs. Could be driver problems, etc.
On 09/16/2011 01:09 PM, Genes MailLists wrote:
On 09/16/2011 12:57 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:
impression of Gnome-3
Sorry - what is this Gnome-3 thing?
Perhaps that is indeed its fate .. 'Hey, you remember the Gnome 3 experiment?' ... 'No sorry- never heard of it .. is it something for the lawn or a comedic horror movie?'
:-)
Yes! I can see the headlines now:
"Gnome releases a new UI, called Gnome 3!"
"Microsoft declares desktop Victory! Gives their employees the day off!"
6 months from now:
"Gnome re-releases Gnome Classic. Claims its what their users want."
3 months after that:
"Gnome 3 nowhere to be found!"
Sound familiar? (Now, where did I put that Coca Cola Classic I was drinking?)
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:56:15PM -0400, Kevin J. Cummings wrote:
Sound familiar? (Now, where did I put that Coca Cola Classic I was drinking?)
I understand you do not like GNOME 3, talking about LXDE is great. But just bashing.. I don't think that is what this mailing list is for.
On 15.09.2011, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
LXDE can easily be set up to have essentially the same look-and-feel as Gnome 2. Also, it's lightweight design seems to have led to a good performance increase at least on my machine.
LXDE is great, but the file manager pcmanfm is not only annoying, it's more buggy than it works properly. Especially the sorting behaviour is sh*t in my eyes. XFCEs thunar is rock solid and fast.
Yes, I know you can replace the file manager in LXDE, but not for the desktop.
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:19:54 -0500 Heinz Diehl htd@fritha.org wrote:
On 15.09.2011, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
LXDE can easily be set up to have essentially the same look-and-feel as Gnome 2. Also, it's lightweight design seems to have led to a good performance increase at least on my machine.
LXDE is great, but the file manager pcmanfm is not only annoying, it's more buggy than it works properly. Especially the sorting behaviour is sh*t in my eyes. XFCEs thunar is rock solid and fast.
No comment on thunar, which I also agree is very good, but the file manager is still buggy? I haven't had a problem in years, even though I don't use it for much other than mount and unmounting USBs and CDs.
Yes, I know you can replace the file manager in LXDE, but not for the desktop.
I doubt this is true. I am pretty certain you can change this. Try editing the file .config/lxsession/LXDE/autostart and also /etc/xdg/lxsession/LXDE/autostart perhaps? (Note that this may be incorrect advice!)
Ranjan
-- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 15:04 +0200, Olav Vitters wrote:
I understand you do not like GNOME 3, talking about LXDE is great. But just bashing.. I don't think that is what this mailing list is for.
Well, when those responsible for the debacle thumb their nose at the users, all that's left is for users to badmouth them. The old adage, "there's no such thing as bad publicity," isn't really true.
A strong movement against Gnome on the users list /may/ move Fedora away from using it by default. Distributions moving away from it /may/ have an effect on its developers.
The prevailing theme has been "I actually wanted Gnome 2, either give me it or something like it." That must say something for what users actually wanted. I've only seen one or two postings saying they liked Gnome 3 better. I know praise isn't often seen, but I'd expect more comments than that, if people liked Gnome 3, considering the huge change that it is from Gnome 2.
In the past, I'd tried various other desktops, but found that Gnome 2 was just about right for me. Others (e.g. KDE) were overblown (even KDE before the big change). And others were way too primitive: I don't want to jump through hoops to get sound. When I insert media it should be mounted for me, I've done the only part that I want to personally deal with, by inserting the media; and I want the eject button to unmount it cleanly; I don't want to be messing with mount/unmount tools. Likewise I want easy networking, and other things to be easy. On a GUI system I shouldn't have to resort to the command line, at all. A CLI user will tell you the same thing, but in reverse (they shouldn't have to resort to using any GUI tools). Organised menus are a good thing, and a permanent task bar where I can access them is too. Having to clear windows out of desk space so I can click on the desktop to get a menu is not. Even worse when it emulates the worst ever menu system devised - the vertical, and upside down, Windows start menu.
And then there's: Many of the applications I want to use are Gnome applications. So using another desktop doesn't avoid the heavy baggage involved with running a Gnome app, or a KDE app, or any other overblown desktop. It really is a pain when mammoth changes are made to a system.
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 01:45:08AM +0930, Tim wrote:
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 15:04 +0200, Olav Vitters wrote:
I understand you do not like GNOME 3, talking about LXDE is great. But just bashing.. I don't think that is what this mailing list is for.
Well, when those responsible for the debacle thumb their nose at the users, all that's left is for users to badmouth them. The old adage, "there's no such thing as bad publicity," isn't really true.
I'm not talking about saying that you don't like GNOME or that GNOME 3 is terrible. But just badmouthing is bad form.
A strong movement against Gnome on the users list /may/ move Fedora away from using it by default. Distributions moving away from it /may/ have an effect on its developers.
We actually have more developers than ever before (since starting with GNOME 3).
And as I've said, I'm happy that there is a discussion (or just downright "I hate it"). But please keep it respectful.
On 17/09/11 14:04, Olav Vitters wrote:
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 10:56:15PM -0400, Kevin J. Cummings wrote:
Sound familiar? (Now, where did I put that Coca Cola Classic I was drinking?)
I understand you do not like GNOME 3, talking about LXDE is great. But just bashing.. I don't think that is what this mailing list is for.
I don't think it is "just bashing", in the above "Classic", there was a comaprision made to another product, where consumer (End-user\Customer) experience\satisfaction killed a decision, made by some marketing\laboratory people (Producer\Upstream)
Gnome. as KDE, Lxde, Xfce, *wm are all products,
A product may cease to be available at the discretion of the producer, take Gnome2. To be replaced by what they fell is a more modern product, Gnome 3. But, to some end-users it is alien to them.
There are a number of avenues open to them: 1: Discuss changing product. 2: Complain enough, so that old product may rememerge. (Which I can garner (no pun intended), is what they want.) 3: Keep quite, and change silently.
There are also end-users who seem to like Gnome3
Olav Vitters <olav <at> vitters.nl> writes:
... And as I've said, I'm happy that there is a discussion (or just downright "I hate it"). But please keep it respectful.
Do not make stuff up, OK ? Nobdy said here that "they hate GNOME 3", did they ?
You are a known GNOME 3 fanboy here and there is nothing you can add to this list regarding it.
The market place (users) have already spoken - the result it a wide rejection of your idea of DE for a hand device, tablet, netbook, notebook, workstation, server, all at the same time,
You do not have a clue, regardless of how many jokers are in GNOME 3 dev camp. You have done a considerable damage to yourselves and Linux desktop in the market place.
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
Otherwise, if you do not like and are not capable of understanding user's needs, there is no hope for you.
JB
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 06:22:18PM +0000, JB wrote:
Olav Vitters <olav <at> vitters.nl> writes:
... And as I've said, I'm happy that there is a discussion (or just downright "I hate it"). But please keep it respectful.
Do not make stuff up, OK ? Nobdy said here that "they hate GNOME 3", did they ?
Neither did I. I said that I'm fine if people would say this.
You are a known GNOME 3 fanboy here and there is nothing you can add to this list regarding it.
I'm not a fanboy. I'm a GNOME sysadmin, release team member, bugmaster, etc.
The market place (users) have already spoken - the result it a wide rejection of your idea of DE for a hand device, tablet, netbook, notebook, workstation, server, all at the same time,
GNOME 3 is not my idea.
You do not have a clue, regardless of how many jokers are in GNOME 3 dev camp. You have done a considerable damage to yourselves and Linux desktop in the market place.
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
Don't get why a well-meaning "please be respectful" has to be taken personally, but oh well.
On Sat, Sep 17, 2011 at 07:05:54PM +0100, Frank Murphy wrote:
I don't think it is "just bashing", in the above "Classic", there was a comaprision made to another product, where consumer (End-user\Customer) experience\satisfaction killed a decision, made by some marketing\laboratory people (Producer\Upstream)
Ok, maybe I was too sensitive :)
But think it is best if I stop responding in this thread.
On 09/17/2011 11:48 AM, Olav Vitters wrote:
I'm not a fanboy. I'm a GNOME sysadmin, release team member, bugmaster, etc.
To some people, the second implies the first. And, I must say, you're the only person I'm aware of who's that involved with Gnome dev that's actually willing to discuss Gnome and where it's going with mere mortals. Most of them either ignore us or tell us that if we're not actively working on Gnome our opinions don't matter.
3: Keep quite, and change silently.
^^ quiet
Right?
4: Change and make sure everybody knows exactly why you did it.
--
Just a matter of opinion, I would leave both options up to the user. Each person is different and since the desktops are a matter of choice, one can use whichever one wants, this is the beauty of choice.
My $.02
Regards,
Antonio
On 09/17/2011 12:19 PM, Antonio Olivares wrote:
Just a matter of opinion, I would leave both options up to the user. Each person is different and since the desktops are a matter of choice, one can use whichever one wants, this is the beauty of choice.
As do I. I make no secret of the fact that I've left Gnome, why, and what I've migrated to. OTOH, I never suggest that other people should do the same unless they're also unhappy with Gnome 3.
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project. It doesn't take incompetence to get it badly wrong in places, it's an inevitable part of any big change. The real test will be how well it gets sorted and tidied up.
Most of the Gnome 3 developers have done a heck of a lot more work than almost all of the peanut gallery.
Alan
On 09/17/2011 01:28 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there
are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project.
How about the way that you can only trigger a specific and needed action (I don't remember which, as I don't use Gnome 3.) by going to the top left corner of the screen and this can only be changed by installing a third-party extension that lets you use the top right corner instead. It was recently revealed here that this was done because the Gnome dev who did it is left handed. From what I can tell, the other devs either let him do it whatever way he wanted without comment or if they did comment, he ignored them. This type of "development" leads to a confusing mishmash of inconsistencies, which is one of the things that drove me away. I may be wrong, but I've also gotten the impression that in many cases, a small group of devs forced the rest of them to accept something that most of them didn't like simply by being intransigent until everybody else gave up and let them have their way. If not, the results certainly look like that to me.
Alan Cox <alan <at> lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project. It doesn't take incompetence to get it badly wrong in places, it's an inevitable part of any big change. The real test will be how well it gets sorted and tidied up.
Most of the Gnome 3 developers have done a heck of a lot more work than almost all of the peanut gallery.
Alan
Alan, I think you are mistaken by trying to be an apologist for GNOME 3 and its devs.
I repeat my main line of GNOME 3 disapproval: the idea of one DE for a hand device, tablet, netbook, notebook, workstation, server. And I do not want to repeat mine and others disapproval of lower level, technical design (menus, layout of work spaces, windows handling, etc), so called user experience.
You can not assume that everybody is now conspiring to bring down GNOME 3 and its devs, do you ? As far as I am concerned it is a shame to present that kind of conceptual garbage even in an alpha/beta stage, and call it a "necessary progress".
I think GNOME 3 devs and their handlers (you know who you are, do you ?) are either stupid or evil. I tend to think that evil presumes rationality. So it remains stupidity.
People who come up with such idea and design and write a DE like GNOME 3 for users across the entire market market spectrum deserve to be put in a straitjacket and kept on Prozac ad infinitum. They injure themselves and others, and so can not be trusted that they are sane and not dangerous to environment. They are complete lunatics and should be treated as such.
JB
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:08:32 +0000 (UTC) JB wrote:
People who come up with such idea and design and write a DE like GNOME 3 for users across the entire market market spectrum deserve to be put in a straitjacket and kept on Prozac ad infinitum.
And the new Windows 8 hype is also talking about unification across the entire spectrum of devices, and then there is ubuntu unity, which makes gnome 3 look good :-).
Can all these different development organizations be wrong about a unified interface? (personally, I'd say "yes" :-).
Tom Horsley <horsley1953 <at> gmail.com> writes:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:08:32 +0000 (UTC) JB wrote:
People who come up with such idea and design and write a DE like GNOME 3 for users across the entire market market spectrum deserve to be put in a straitjacket and kept on Prozac ad infinitum.
And the new Windows 8 hype is also talking about unification across the entire spectrum of devices, and then there is ubuntu unity, which makes gnome 3 look good .
Can all these different development organizations be wrong about a unified interface? (personally, I'd say "yes" .
With regard to MS - they do a step dance, kind of funny one (one step forward, one step backward, and one step sideways, etc).
Their Windows 8 is planned to have "progressive" Metro DE, and "retro" Classic DE as well, as separate applications. Just in case ... So they can not be accused of lack of conviction :-)
GNOME looks like a peanut gallery in comparison to them !
Sinofsky: Classic Desktop Is a Separate Application in Windows 8 http://www.osnews.com/story/25120/Sinofsky_Classic_Desktop_Is_a_Separate_App...
JB
On 09/17/2011 01:28 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project. It doesn't take incompetence to get it badly wrong in places, it's an inevitable part of any big change. The real test will be how well it gets sorted and tidied up.
Most of the Gnome 3 developers have done a heck of a lot more work than almost all of the peanut gallery.
Alan
Has anyone taken a poll from the Fedora Community as to what new directions Gnome-X should be taking BEFORE making such a paradigm shift? Were this a commercial product, you will hearing from your customers who otherwise will drop the product (gnome-3, that is) and seek solace elsewhere. IMO, the peanut-gallery started with Gnome-3, not Gnome-2.
I have installed and played with Gnome-3, and my first impressions was: unholy shite! Where in the ruckus has everything gone! Also, my (not that old) desktop ran fine with Gnome-2, but fell into 'fallback-mode' and went from turtle to slug. This left a very bad taste in my mouth and I will not use Gnome-3 as it is. I truly understand Linux Torvald's impressions... what a (bleep!) "unholy mess"! (paraphrased)
I imagine the grief of those who invested into Linux (having ripped out Winbows due to costs) with Gnome-2 installed by default, having to explain to their superiors why they need to update and retrain their people the way of the mobile UI.
It seems to me, a LOT of work went into Gnome-3, with the expectation that the Linux community will have to have it ramroded into their throats, mercilessly water boarded without resistance, and their screams silenced... Didn't expect that, did you?
Joe Zeff <joe <at> zeff.us> writes:
... How about the way that you can only trigger a specific and needed action (I don't remember which, as I don't use Gnome 3.) by going to the top left corner of the screen and this can only be changed by installing a third-party extension that lets you use the top right corner instead. It was recently revealed here that this was done because the Gnome dev who did it is left handed. From what I can tell, the other devs either let him do it whatever way he wanted without comment or if they did comment, he ignored them. This type of "development" leads to a confusing mishmash of inconsistencies, which is one of the things that drove me away. I may be wrong, but I've also gotten the impression that in many cases, a small group of devs forced the rest of them to accept something that most of them didn't like simply by being intransigent until everybody else gave up and let them have their way. If not, the results certainly look like that to me.
There is a similar case with systemd project. There is a meister there as well who tells people "If you disagree with Lennart then you must hate handicapped people!". For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERAXJj142o
This is their idea of an interaction between devs and users ...
JB
On 09/17/2011 03:12 PM, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
Has anyone taken a poll from the Fedora Community as to what new directions Gnome-X should be taking BEFORE making such a paradigm shift?
Why just the Fedora Community? Why not a poll of people using Gnome, no matter what distro? Yes, Fedora's always been Gnome-centric, but it's not exactly the only distro like that, and there are other distros with a large percentage of Gnome users.
On 09/17/2011 03:43 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/17/2011 03:12 PM, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
Has anyone taken a poll from the Fedora Community as to what new directions Gnome-X should be taking BEFORE making such a paradigm shift?
Why just the Fedora Community? Why not a poll of people using Gnome, no matter what distro? Yes, Fedora's always been Gnome-centric, but it's not exactly the only distro like that, and there are other distros with a large percentage of Gnome users.
Ah, yes.. you are right! Thanks for correcting me!
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 17:32 -0400, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 21:08:32 +0000 (UTC) JB wrote:
People who come up with such idea and design and write a DE like GNOME 3 for users across the entire market market spectrum deserve to be put in a straitjacket and kept on Prozac ad infinitum.
And the new Windows 8 hype is also talking about unification across the entire spectrum of devices, and then there is ubuntu unity, which makes gnome 3 look good :-).
Can all these different development organizations be wrong about a unified interface? (personally, I'd say "yes" :-).
---- just want to point out that Apple has embarked on doing the same thing w/ Lion.
Craig
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 15:12 -0700, Daniel B. Thurman wrote:
On 09/17/2011 01:28 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project. It doesn't take incompetence to get it badly wrong in places, it's an inevitable part of any big change. The real test will be how well it gets sorted and tidied up.
Most of the Gnome 3 developers have done a heck of a lot more work than almost all of the peanut gallery.
Alan
Has anyone taken a poll from the Fedora Community as to what new directions Gnome-X should be taking BEFORE making such a paradigm shift? Were this a commercial product, you will hearing from your customers who otherwise will drop the product (gnome-3, that is) and seek solace elsewhere. IMO, the peanut-gallery started with Gnome-3, not Gnome-2.
I have installed and played with Gnome-3, and my first impressions was: unholy shite! Where in the ruckus has everything gone! Also, my (not that old) desktop ran fine with Gnome-2, but fell into 'fallback-mode' and went from turtle to slug. This left a very bad taste in my mouth and I will not use Gnome-3 as it is. I truly understand Linux Torvald's impressions... what a (bleep!) "unholy mess"! (paraphrased)
I imagine the grief of those who invested into Linux (having ripped out Winbows due to costs) with Gnome-2 installed by default, having to explain to their superiors why they need to update and retrain their people the way of the mobile UI.
It seems to me, a LOT of work went into Gnome-3, with the expectation that the Linux community will have to have it ramroded into their throats, mercilessly water boarded without resistance, and their screams silenced... Didn't expect that, did you?
---- First of all - a taking a poll is fine but it has little to do with a project like GNOME since it is the developers of GNOME who get to decide what it does and how it does it. After all, it is their time and energy. If they are being paid for their time & energy, then whoever is paying them probably gets a say in the matter too.
People who are getting worked up about the current state of GNOME 3 are just being stupid... they have other DM's to choose from.
If it turns out that GNOME no longer suits the majority, I'm quite sure that Fedora will stop using it as their default DM.
A few/lot of vociferous people do not constitute a majority of users though - only an indicator that this is a situation that should be monitored.
Craig
On 09/17/2011 05:21 PM, Craig White wrote:
First of all - a taking a poll is fine but it has little to do with a project like GNOME since it is the developers of GNOME who get to decide what it does and how it does it.
You're right, as far as you go, but that's not all there is to it. Unless the developers are only interested in creating something for themselves, they need to take the opinions of the end users into account at least enough to make sure they're creating something that other people will want to use. If, for example, a poll were to show that most people who currently used Gnome wanted to be able to specify which workspace a window would open on, it would be foolish to implement a DE that didn't allow that.
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 17:56 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/17/2011 05:21 PM, Craig White wrote:
First of all - a taking a poll is fine but it has little to do with a project like GNOME since it is the developers of GNOME who get to decide what it does and how it does it.
You're right, as far as you go, but that's not all there is to it. Unless the developers are only interested in creating something for themselves, they need to take the opinions of the end users into account at least enough to make sure they're creating something that other people will want to use. If, for example, a poll were to show that most people who currently used Gnome wanted to be able to specify which workspace a window would open on, it would be foolish to implement a DE that didn't allow that.
---- Is this a habit of yours? (Telling people what they 'need' to do)
GNOME is GPL - anyone can fork it and do what they want (ie fork GNOME 2). For the life of me, I don't understand what the griping is about. If you don't like it, don't use it... unlike Macintosh or Windows, you do actually get to choose from many different DM's and are not just limited to specific choices of eye candy that they allow you to choose from. If you can do better, go ahead.
As far as I have known, GNOME developers have generally eschewed what other people wanted and made it how they saw things should be. I can't blame them for that for reasons already given. If you feel that blaming them is justified, then you should consider it apropos for them to be telling you what to do too. Consider that I think your expressed opinions on this subject are misguided if not completely stupid but I wouldn't blame you for rejecting them, just like GNOME developers would reject yours (but you blame them). Good luck.
Then again, I use KDE ;-)
Craig
On 09/17/2011 06:03 PM, Craig White wrote:
Is this a habit of yours? (Telling people what they 'need' to do)
Are you, by any chance, a Gnome dev? If not, is it your habit to get offended in other people's name? You certainly sound like you're offended but give no reasons other than you don't like what I wrote about how (and why) Gnome seems (to me, among others) to be heading in exactly the wrong decision. There was a time when I'd make a number of uncomplimentary comments about what you wrote and why, but I outgrew that habit several decades ago. All I'll say is that I think you're getting too worked up over how my comments were phrased and ignoring the sense of them. And, I'll point out, yet again, that I've already taken your advice and dropped Gnome like a hot potato and migrated to a DE I like better. If you like Gnome 3, stick with it with my blessings; if not, I'd suggest that you take your own advice.
On 09/17/2011 03:39 PM, JB wrote:
There is a similar case with systemd project. There is a meister there as well who tells people "If you disagree with Lennart then you must hate handicapped people!". For reference:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERAXJj142o
This is their idea of an interaction between devs and users ...
I'm not going to watch almost an hour's worth of video for one short scene. I will say, however, that although I don't know who you're quoting, I'll match my experience helping the handicapped to his any day. Not only did I keep Dan Alderson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Alderson) productive for two years at JPL after diabetic retinopathy made it impossible for him to read a computer screen (and took care of him at home, afterwards, until he had to be placed in a nursing home) I've run Handicapped Services at various local and regional conventions either as department head or staff for many years. And, my sister and I took care of our mother during the last five years of her life when her Parkinson's Disease reached the end stage and took her mobility away.
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 18:28 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/17/2011 06:03 PM, Craig White wrote:
Is this a habit of yours? (Telling people what they 'need' to do)
Are you, by any chance, a Gnome dev? If not, is it your habit to get offended in other people's name? You certainly sound like you're offended but give no reasons other than you don't like what I wrote about how (and why) Gnome seems (to me, among others) to be heading in exactly the wrong decision. There was a time when I'd make a number of uncomplimentary comments about what you wrote and why, but I outgrew that habit several decades ago. All I'll say is that I think you're getting too worked up over how my comments were phrased and ignoring the sense of them. And, I'll point out, yet again, that I've already taken your advice and dropped Gnome like a hot potato and migrated to a DE I like better. If you like Gnome 3, stick with it with my blessings; if not, I'd suggest that you take your own advice.
---- heck no - I use KDE - pretty much always have. Never really liked GNOME even when it was GNOME 1 or GNOME 2. Perhaps I would like GNOME 3 at some point but no, I am not a GNOME developer and don't use it.
As for DE/DM or however you want to refer to it, what we are talking about is the attempt to reach the next generation of UI and GNOME isn't alone with efforts to significantly modify the UI. As noted earlier in the thread, both Apple and Microsoft have made significant strides themselves (OS X 10.7 & Windows 8). Surely old time users will bitch and moan about their expectations not being met but it seems clear that there's little interest in rewriting the code base to scratch an itch that has already been scratched... just maintain the existing code and theme away. But to get at the next generation of UI - that does probably mean those with expectations need not bother.
As for offense... having done some software development myself, I tend to think of myself as the most knowledgeable 'end user', design first to my expectations, second to the expectations of whoever is footing the bill for my time (if anyone) and *possibly* others if they can convince me (good luck with that one). I think I pretty much agree with Alan Cox - comments from the peanut gallery. Compared to Alan Cox, most of us on this list constitute the peanut gallery and I commend him for monitoring/posting/helping on the list.
Craig
Am 18.09.2011 02:21, schrieb Craig White:
People who are getting worked up about the current state of GNOME 3 are just being stupid... they have other DM's to choose from
this is a dumb argumentation for several reasons
first of all most people have work to do and not look all the time which desktop does not interrupt their workflow
and stupid are only people who accept all and switching silently because the chance is big if not enough people are saying loud enough that it is stupid throw away a DE and replace it with another one while raise only the version counter sooner or later the desktop they choose now will make the same epic fail
the same for "if you are unhappy with the direction fedora goes" everybody who says "switch the distro" must be a child and never worked in his life because he has simply too much time if he can happily switch his whole system
Am 18.09.2011 03:03, schrieb Craig White:
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 17:56 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
You're right, as far as you go, but that's not all there is to it. Unless the developers are only interested in creating something for themselves, they need to take the opinions of the end users into account at least enough to make sure they're creating something that other people will want to use.
Is this a habit of yours? (Telling people what they 'need' to do)
is it a habit of yours? (waiting until enough people use your software and then throw it away completly and tell them that you decide what they have to like)
GNOME is GPL - anyone can fork it
and such phrases are the reason why linux on the desktop will never become a big thing because there are way too much people out there saying "you have to be delevloper or shut up"
For the life of me, I don't understand what the griping is about. If you don't like it, don't use it...
how old are you that you are believe people with a existing workflow can be forced permanently to change their workflow because they have no work, no family and so no other things to do?
unlike Macintosh or Windows, you do actually get to choose from many different DM's and are not just limited
well, epople HAVE choosed and some ignorant people decided to kill what they have chossed and you call this fair?
to specific choices of eye candy that they allow you to choose from. If you can do better, go ahead.
poor argumentation
As far as I have known, GNOME developers have generally eschewed what other people wanted and made it how they saw things should be. I can't blame them for that for reasons already given.
well, with real existing users or have they used imaginary ones?
If you feel that blaming them is justified, then you should consider it apropos for them to be telling you what to do too.
and you are telling the whole time users what they have to do
* switch to another DE * fork it * shut up
Then again, I use KDE ;-)
i too and hopefully more and more people will cry out loud about the epic fail of GNOME3 to prevent the same mistakes happening in KDE sooner or later (rely on 3D hardware and such crap)
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 11:18 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
4: Change and make sure everybody knows exactly why you did it.
Goodbye, cruel world... </Farnsworth voice>
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:43:01 -0700 Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/17/2011 01:28 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
I personally think that you GNOME 3 devs are incompetent (I know that there
are some who are not happy about the state of it and perhaps will get an upper hand in due time - the sooner the better).
That seems uncalled for. Trying to build a new desktop is a large, non trivial project.
How about the way that you can only trigger a specific and needed action
To me there are several
- the weird 'mouse corner' behaviour - which is useless for any corner you choose on a big display, great for touchscreen, total fail for dual headed monitors. Should at least also be a mouse gesture as well as a key shortcut
- disabling the middle mouse button by default
- the amazing one pixel wide borders for resizing
- the very slow compositing performance of the desktop (which is one I know is being worked on)
- the fact that moving between apps on different desktops is now a mouse marathon (left corner for overview, mouse all the way to the right click on desktop, mouse most of the way back to the left, click on app). Just try this on a dual monitor display and weep.
- the over-reliance on OpenGL code paths for things you can do without and which should work on any old video card (eg the scaling/shading). E can do some of them faster on a dumb card much of the time than Gnome 3 is doing on a 3D card !
- the very high memory usage for buffers (I think again due to poor compositor design)
- no window shading option
- lack of basic configurability
The first five should be trivial to fix, the last one in part seems to be because 3.0 was rushed and not ready. The compositor looks hard to sort out
I think GNOME 3 devs and their handlers (you know who you are, do you ?) are either stupid or evil. I tend to think that evil presumes rationality. So it remains stupidity.
I doubt they are either. There are lot of things built by very smart people for very good reasons that turn out not to have been such a bright idea after all.
They injure themselves and others, and so can not be trusted that they are sane and not dangerous to environment.
The great thing about free software is that they can't force anyone to change. If you want Gnome 2 keep running it and work with the people who do. It certainly wouldn't be the first example of a new version of something dying out and the old fork continuing successfully.
They are complete lunatics and should be treated as such.
People said that about a nutty Finnish chap and his kernel project, and about Richard Stallman and the concepts of the GPL and FSF. You can go back through history and you'll find they said the same about such madness as metal boats, the turbine engine, ....
People fear change and particularly dislike change being inflicted on them (even in many documented cases where they then fight tooth and nail to keep the change later on 8))
None of it makes them stupid or evil, any more than the people who've designed some other classic fails (New coke would be a fine analogy here perhaps)
Alan
Has anyone taken a poll from the Fedora Community as to what new directions Gnome-X should be taking BEFORE making such a paradigm shift? Were this a
Are they paying customers, do they have support contracts ?
commercial product, you will hearing from your customers who otherwise will drop the product (gnome-3, that is) and seek solace elsewhere. IMO, the peanut-gallery started with Gnome-3, not Gnome-2.
Fedora is not a product with customers. Quite what Red Hat Enterprise customers have to say to Red Hat down the line when/if it becomes the desktop of whatever their next product is I don't know.
It seems to me, a LOT of work went into Gnome-3, with the expectation that the Linux community will have to have it ramroded into their throats, mercilessly water boarded without resistance, and their screams silenced...
It's very hard to force people to take anything in the free world. Windows 8 you will get the desktop delivered as defined by MS. In the Linux case well if you don't like it run something else.
In the case of business users I doubt many use Fedora for that, and those using RHEL, CentOS etc will have five odd years to ponder the question anyway.
I do think there is a problem with the Gnome development model and its unwillingness of many of its developers to accept external input as anything but criticism of them personally. The foundation-list is currently involved in a fascinating example where many of the developers are attempting to block and stonewall a third party survey of desktop users and their interests. It reminds me of the behaviour of failing governments that are about to implode before an election is forced - a complete total denial.
I shall continue voting Xfce 8)
Alan
On 09/17/2011 07:56 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/17/2011 05:21 PM, Craig White wrote:
First of all - a taking a poll is fine but it has little to do with a project like GNOME since it is the developers of GNOME who get to decide what it does and how it does it.
You're right, as far as you go, but that's not all there is to it. Unless the developers are only interested in creating something for themselves, they need to take the opinions of the end users into account at least enough to make sure they're creating something that other people will want to use. If, for example, a poll were to show that most people who currently used Gnome wanted to be able to specify which workspace a window would open on, it would be foolish to implement a DE that didn't allow that.
Polls only go so far. Users often don't know what they want, or think they want X and really want Y (or would have their actual needs better met by Y). It's the user experience designer's job to sift through that and give them what they need to do their work, which is not necessarily what the users would tell you they need/want if you ask them.
Polls (or, better yet, interviews) can be a valuable tool in figuring out what to build & how to build it, but they are just one input point. Further, a visionary designer can come up with good solutions that the people polled couldn't have imagined and therefore couldn't have said they wanted.
I don't know that the Gnome designers and developers have achieved Steve Jobs quality-of-vision when it comes to user experience design. But they're trying a bold new concept (and yes it's new - Gnome Shell predates both Metro and OSX Lion Dashboard), and that can pay off.
All this to say, I think this idea of "polling the users" is very misguided. Should more user input have been sought? Probably. But let's stop talking about nonsense ways to get it.
For those saying "if people liked it, we'd here", let me add my voice: I find Gnome 3 to be a very fluid and productive experience on my laptop.
- Michael
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 5:11 AM, Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
the fact that moving between apps on different desktops is now a mouse marathon (left corner for overview, mouse all the way to the right click on desktop, mouse most of the way back to the left, click on app). Just try this on a dual monitor display and weep.
I may not be understanding, but why can't you use Alt-Tab and Alt-~ for this, or alternately click the icon in the dash without moving over to the desktops? That works here for me. Is there something about the dual displays that prevents this?
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 01:11:16PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
How about the way that you can only trigger a specific and needed action
To me there are several
the weird 'mouse corner' behaviour - which is useless for any corner you choose on a big display, great for touchscreen, total fail for dual headed monitors. Should at least also be a mouse gesture as well as a key shortcut
disabling the middle mouse button by default
the amazing one pixel wide borders for resizing
the very slow compositing performance of the desktop (which is one I know is being worked on)
the fact that moving between apps on different desktops is now a mouse marathon (left corner for overview, mouse all the way to the right click on desktop, mouse most of the way back to the left, click on app). Just try this on a dual monitor display and weep.
the over-reliance on OpenGL code paths for things you can do without and which should work on any old video card (eg the scaling/shading). E can do some of them faster on a dumb card much of the time than Gnome 3 is doing on a 3D card !
the very high memory usage for buffers (I think again due to poor compositor design)
no window shading option
lack of basic configurability
The first five should be trivial to fix, the last one in part seems to be because 3.0 was rushed and not ready. The compositor looks hard to sort out
Though I am a staunch (but not uncritical) admirer and user of Gnome3 I am in agreement with your points 3,4,6,8 above.
Ad point 1: who cares about mice, use the keyboard. Ad point 2: don't understand this one, disabled? Ad point 5: as I am not an investor, trader or developer with 2 (or more) monitors I have no problems with this. Using keyboard shortcuts I navigate easily and fast between apps, even on different workspaces. Even using the mouse is not very stressfull. You get into the 'flow' quickly enough. (And exercise is good for you :-)) And from my very limited experience with 2 monitors I think using 2 monitors is tiring enough in itself. Ad point 7: I shade windows all the time (shade is roll up window?) (gnome-tweak-tool).
Alexander
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 08:41:38AM -0500, Michael Ekstrand wrote:
Polls only go so far. Users often don't know what they want, or think they want X and really want Y (or would have their actual needs better met by Y). It's the user experience designer's job to sift through that and give them what they need to do their work, which is not necessarily what the users would tell you they need/want if you ask them.
Polls (or, better yet, interviews) can be a valuable tool in figuring out what to build & how to build it, but they are just one input point. Further, a visionary designer can come up with good solutions that the people polled couldn't have imagined and therefore couldn't have said they wanted.
I don't know that the Gnome designers and developers have achieved Steve Jobs quality-of-vision when it comes to user experience design. But they're trying a bold new concept (and yes it's new - Gnome Shell predates both Metro and OSX Lion Dashboard), and that can pay off.
All this to say, I think this idea of "polling the users" is very misguided. Should more user input have been sought? Probably. But let's stop talking about nonsense ways to get it.
For those saying "if people liked it, we'd hear", let me add my voice: I find Gnome 3 to be a very fluid and productive experience on my laptop.
I agree completely.
I was going to post a counter message adressing these anti Gnome 3 rants but shall refrain from doing so as it is next to impossible to influence Linux zealots of any persuasion.
So I will hereby come out of the closet and let myself be "heard" as Gnome 3 lover.
I too find Gnome 3 a fluid and productive experience on my laptop and a slightly less fluid but still productive experience on my desktop.
In the name of all Gnome 3 afficionados I would suggest changing the title of this thread to: 'Gnome 3 is an acceptable substitute for Gnome 2'.
(This is not to say that I am uncritical of Gnome 3 or an admirer of the attitude of some of the Gnome developers)
Alexander
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 08:56:54 -0700 Bryce Hardy brycehardy@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 5:11 AM, Alan Cox alan@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote:
the fact that moving between apps on different desktops is now a mouse marathon (left corner for overview, mouse all the way to the right click on desktop, mouse most of the way back to the left, click on app). Just try this on a dual monitor display and weep.
I may not be understanding, but why can't you use Alt-Tab and Alt-~ for this, or alternately click the icon in the dash without moving over to the desktops? That works here for me. Is there something about the dual displays that prevents this?
Well I could add the dash and do that which would be slightly less bad but still not great. Using the keyboard means switching mouse/keyboard and for a lot of stuff Gnome 3 is actually ok if you avoid the mouse. If I'm doing stuff like detailing graphical work then having to keep going poking at the keyboard to flip back/forth is annoying to say the least.
On 09/18/2011 09:38 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
In the name of all Gnome 3 afficionados I would suggest changing the title of this thread to: 'Gnome 3 is an acceptable substitute for Gnome 2'.
If you did, you'd probably get a flood of replies saying, in effect, "No it isn't, at least for me."
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 10:43:20 -0700 Joe Zeff joe@zeff.us wrote:
On 09/18/2011 05:26 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
Are they paying customers, do they have support contracts ?
Does it matter? If enough of them dislike the new version badly enough to leave, the project will either die or become a toy used only by the devs.
Fine .. natural selection, market forces, call it what you will. Evolution as with all such processes inevitably involves failures.
Alan
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 18:06 +0200, Alexander Volovics wrote:
On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 01:11:16PM +0100, Alan Cox wrote:
How about the way that you can only trigger a specific and needed action
To me there are several [...]
- disabling the middle mouse button by default
Ad point 2: don't understand this one, disabled?
Middle-button emulation for two-button mice is disabled by default.
gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.peripherals.mouse middle-button-enabled true
fixes it. But I don't understand that choice (or the one-pixel border) either.
That said, I mostly find GNOME 3 usable on my laptop and acceptable on my desktop. Not nearly perfect yet, but usable.
Alexander
On 09/18/2011 12:16 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
That said, I mostly find GNOME 3 usable on my laptop and acceptable on my desktop. Not nearly perfect yet, but usable.
The first sentence sounds like a remarkably tepid acceptance, but the two together suggest that you find it good enough for your purposes that you're not interested in changing your DE. If so, I'm glad for you. However, judging by the responses to this thread, you may be in the minority. (Of course, it might just be that only those of us who either tried it and disliked it or migrated preemptively are participating in this conversation.)
Again, I'd like to point out that this just demonstrates one of the biggest strengths of Linux: if you don't like the direction your DE is going in, you're free to change.
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 12:35 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/18/2011 12:16 PM, Matthew Saltzman wrote:
That said, I mostly find GNOME 3 usable on my laptop and acceptable on my desktop. Not nearly perfect yet, but usable.
The first sentence sounds like a remarkably tepid acceptance, but the two together suggest that you find it good enough for your purposes that you're not interested in changing your DE. If so, I'm glad for you.
I'm willing to see how things develop. This is a phase of the project where developments will come quickly and may improve the user experience dramatically. I'm not frustrated enough to bolt at this point, and I think the trajectory is positive.
Reading through the introduction at gnome.org and some other basic resources made the transition simpler than it would have been otherwise.
However, judging by the responses to this thread, you may be in the minority. (Of course, it might just be that only those of us who either tried it and disliked it or migrated preemptively are participating in this conversation.)
I think that's likely. I also note that several people have chimed in recently with a more positive take.
Again, I'd like to point out that this just demonstrates one of the biggest strengths of Linux: if you don't like the direction your DE is going in, you're free to change.
Absolutely!
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 18:06 +0200, Alexander Volovics wrote:
Ad point 1: who cares about mice, use the keyboard.
There are various things that one does with a computer that are just about all graphical (e.g. working with photos). Granted that there are better than mice drawing tools, but it's the default tool that many have, or maybe the only tool that they have. Hopping between mouse and keyboard, thanks to poor GUI design, IS BAD!
Using keyboard shortcuts I navigate easily and fast between apps, even on different workspaces.
Despite using all manner of computers for over thirty years, I do not remember many short cuts, certainly only a few of them. And many of them are so bizarre that you're highly unlikely to remember them. It gets worse when programmers change them between releases.
And, quite frankly, having to use a plethora of keyboard bashing strokes instead of just mouse over and click, reminds me all too much of how hard it is to play Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor.
Rather like CLI lovers saying how much better the keyboard is, and all the mental and finger gymnastics they have to do, to copy some files out of a directory, compared to drag-select with a mouse, drag one over and drop, to copy them.
Even using the mouse is not very stressfull.
Bah, it is one of the crappest user interfaces ever designed, and causes even more repetitive strain injuries than bad keyboarding. About the only things going for it are its simplicity and intuitiveness.
I think that's likely. I also note that several people have chimed in recently with a more positive take.
When I first met gnome-shell I got as frustrated as everyone else. I guess offering a quick tutorial on first login would be a very good move. Like firefox when they have new features.
I googled a bit, learnt some tricks, and decided to stick with it for a week to give it a chance. I would recommend the same to everyone else. It's far from perfect, but it's good in new ways. It will evolve, and I want to be part of that.
Fedora is about embracing new technologies and make them work. Remember when pulseaudio was the topic that generated this kind of noise? Look at it today. I wouldn't be without it!
Gnome 3 is good. Needs some spit, polish and a lot of elbow grease.
On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 04:24:02PM +0930, Tim wrote:
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 18:06 +0200, Alexander Volovics wrote:
Ad point 1: who cares about mice, use the keyboard.
There are various things that one does with a computer that are just about all graphical (e.g. working with photos). Granted that there are better than mice drawing tools, but it's the default tool that many have, or maybe the only tool that they have. Hopping between mouse and keyboard, thanks to poor GUI design, IS BAD!
Dear Tim Ignored_mailbox,
There are almost as many kinds of computer users as there are computers. One size will not fit all. People put computers to so many different kinds of uses that it is unlikely that there will ever be an interface that satisfies everybody or maybe even a majority of users. Peoples needs, work habits and mechanical skills are vastly different!
And who knows what a 'computer' will be in a couple of years. With 'downsizing' to portable (-> tablet) and 'upsizing' to large touchscreens (-> large tablets = all-in-one pc's) the dominant interface will probably be a "poke, swipe and handwave" one. (Mouse not even needed, let alone a keyboard. The few people that can still write might use a virtual keyboard like eekboard to poke a few letters (or they might just use 'dictation')) So Unity and Gnome3 could have had a head start {^!^}
Using keyboard shortcuts I navigate easily and fast between apps, even on different workspaces.
Despite using all manner of computers for over thirty years, I do not remember many short cuts, certainly only a few of them. And many of them are so bizarre that you're highly unlikely to remember them. It gets worse when programmers change them between releases.
In my +/- 52 years of using computers I have gone from analog desktop calculating machines to the X1 ("home" made Dutch computer) to IBM, DEC, Univac "Big Iron" to "Small Iron" VAX and PDP to desktop and laptop PC's.
From punch cards, paper tape, teletype machines, primitive VT100/VTXXX
terminals to sophisticated modern monitors.
From the clunky, odious OS's of IBM Big Iron to VAX/VMS to
OS/2 to Linux (FVWM, Blackbox/Openbox/Fluxbox, Enlightenment, KDE1, KDE2, Gnome1, Gnome2, Gnome3, sometimes using 2 or more at the same time).
Just stop and think about the amount of change and adapting computer users of my generation have had to deal with (and be productive at the same time). So I sometimes get just a teensy weensy bit tired when somebody 'whines' that Gnome3 disrupted their wonderful Gnome2 work habits.
I can get by with mostly keyboard use because I have very sober needs. 1) Mail = 'terminal + Mutt' (no mouse use possible) 2) LaTeX editor = 'Gummi' (or 'LyX' but it does not play well with 'Xy-pic'). Mouse not very useful in this context. And I used to use 'terminal+Vim+LaTeX' but 'Vim+LaTeX' has become too much of a strain on my memory. 3) Editor = 'Vim' for "housekeeping" tasks and 'Gedit' for say letter writing. 4) Files = 'terminal + Bash shell commands' 5) Math app = 'terminal + R' mostly (Gui useless for heavy interactive work) 6) PDF/PS reader = 'Evince' 7) Browser = only when needed 'Firefox' 8) Music = 'Rhythmbox' but only to listen to 2 radio stations (RTBF-Vivacité-Liège & RTBF-La Première for nostalgic reasons and to keep up my French).
I open everything with 'Ctrl-Alt-letter' and close everything with 'Alt-F4'. To navigate the Gnome3 desktop/workspaces/windows I use the default keyboard shortcuts (and occasionally the mouse). I do not start up and close down with 'arranged desktops and workspaces'.
Bah, it is one of the crappest user interfaces ever designed, and causes even more repetitive strain injuries than bad keyboarding. About the only things going for it are its simplicity and intuitiveness.
Actually I would be an ideal candidate user for 'Scrotwm' but I prefer the sleek sophistication of Gnome3. What made me like it at first sight was the sparse, clean desktop. Everything hidden from sight, but yet relatively easily accessible. No icons on the desktop, no icons on the topbar, marvelous!
[Though given the stupid 16:9 format of recent (laptop) screens a 'sidebar' instead of 'topbar' might be preferable. Now why does nobody protest this 'crappy hardware interface' or are you all only game players and video watchers]
Alexander
Alan Cox <alan <at> lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:
... I do think there is a problem with the Gnome development model and its unwillingness of many of its developers to accept external input as anything but criticism of them personally. The foundation-list is currently involved in a fascinating example where many of the developers are attempting to block and stonewall a third party survey of desktop users and their interests. It reminds me of the behaviour of failing governments that are about to implode before an election is forced - a complete total denial.
This is about a GNOME 3 hacker who got lost in life ... -------------------------------------------------------
Give Me Back My Dog...
A cowboy named Bud was overseeing his herd in a remote pasture in Texas when suddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.
The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses and YSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the cowboy, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, Will you give me a calf?"
Bud looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefully grazing herd and calmly answers, "Sure, Why not?"
The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects it to his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.
The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports it to an image processing facility in Hamburg , Germany .
Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image has been processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives a response.
Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech, miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the cowboy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."
"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Bud.
He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on with amusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.
Then Bud says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what your business is, will you give me back my calf?"
The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?"
"You're a GNOME 3 developer", says Bud.
"Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?"
"No guessing required." answered the cowboy. "You showed up here even though nobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep. .....
Now give me back my dog.
Reproduced with permission. JB
On 09/19/2011 10:06 AM, JB wrote:
Alan Cox <alan <at> lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk> writes:
... I do think there is a problem with the Gnome development model and its unwillingness of many of its developers to accept external input as anything but criticism of them personally. The foundation-list is currently involved in a fascinating example where many of the developers are attempting to block and stonewall a third party survey of desktop users and their interests. It reminds me of the behaviour of failing governments that are about to implode before an election is forced - a complete total denial.
This is about a GNOME 3 hacker who got lost in life ...
Give Me Back My Dog...
A cowboy named Bud was overseeing his herd in a remote pasture in Texas whensuddenly a brand-new BMW advanced toward him out of a cloud of dust.
The driver, a young man in a Brioni suit, Gucci shoes, RayBan sunglasses andYSL tie, leaned out the window and asked the cowboy, "If I tell you exactly how many cows and calves you have in your herd, Will you give me a calf?"
Bud looks at the man, obviously a yuppie, then looks at his peacefullygrazing herd and calmly answers, "Sure, Why not?"
The yuppie parks his car, whips out his Dell notebook computer, connects itto his Cingular RAZR V3 cell phone, and surfs to a NASA page on the Internet, where he calls up a GPS satellite to get an exact fix on his location which he then feeds to another NASA satellite that scans the area in an ultra-high-resolution photo.
The young man then opens the digital photo in Adobe Photoshop and exports itto an image processing facility in Hamburg , Germany .
Within seconds, he receives an email on his Palm Pilot that the image hasbeen processed and the data stored. He then accesses an MS-SQL database through an ODBC connected Excel spreadsheet with email on his Blackberry and, after a few minutes, receives a response.
Finally, he prints out a full-color, 150-page report on his hi-tech,miniaturized HP LaserJet printer, turns to the cowboy and says, "You have exactly 1,586 cows and calves."
"That's right. Well, I guess you can take one of my calves," says Bud. He watches the young man select one of the animals and looks on withamusement as the young man stuffs it into the trunk of his car.
Then Bud says to the young man, "Hey, if I can tell you exactly what yourbusiness is, will you give me back my calf?"
The young man thinks about it for a second and then says, "Okay, why not?" "You're a GNOME 3 developer", says Bud. "Wow! That's correct," says the yuppie, "but how did you guess that?" "No guessing required." answered the cowboy. "You showed up here even thoughnobody called you; you want to get paid for an answer I already knew, to a question I never asked. You used millions of dollars worth of equipment trying to show me how much smarter than me you are; and you don't know a thing about how working people make a living - or about cows, for that matter. This is a herd of sheep. .....
Now give me back my dog.Reproduced with permission. JB
Good "tail", JD, but where are the 3-gnomes "herd" <... dead silence, not even a moo, baa, or woof...>?
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 06:28 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 18.09.2011 03:03, schrieb Craig White:
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 17:56 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
You're right, as far as you go, but that's not all there is to it. Unless the developers are only interested in creating something for themselves, they need to take the opinions of the end users into account at least enough to make sure they're creating something that other people will want to use.
Is this a habit of yours? (Telling people what they 'need' to do)
is it a habit of yours? (waiting until enough people use your software and then throw it away completly and tell them that you decide what they have to like)
GNOME is GPL - anyone can fork it
and such phrases are the reason why linux on the desktop will never become a big thing because there are way too much people out there saying "you have to be delevloper or shut up"
For the life of me, I don't understand what the griping is about. If you don't like it, don't use it...
how old are you that you are believe people with a existing workflow can be forced permanently to change their workflow because they have no work, no family and so no other things to do?
unlike Macintosh or Windows, you do actually get to choose from many different DM's and are not just limited
well, epople HAVE choosed and some ignorant people decided to kill what they have chossed and you call this fair?
to specific choices of eye candy that they allow you to choose from. If you can do better, go ahead.
poor argumentation
As far as I have known, GNOME developers have generally eschewed what other people wanted and made it how they saw things should be. I can't blame them for that for reasons already given.
well, with real existing users or have they used imaginary ones?
If you feel that blaming them is justified, then you should consider it apropos for them to be telling you what to do too.
and you are telling the whole time users what they have to do
- switch to another DE
- fork it
- shut up
---- absolutely not - I am pointing out the obvious choices available. I don't tell anyone what to do. ----
Then again, I use KDE ;-)
i too and hopefully more and more people will cry out loud about the epic fail of GNOME3 to prevent the same mistakes happening in KDE sooner or later (rely on 3D hardware and such crap)
---- Personally, I find the 'sky is falling' argument a bit tired. It's free software, it's always created because people have an itch that they want to scratch and the idea that others that don't have the same itch have a stake in the process is absurd to the core.
But hey, I think pretty much every argument you made above (which I purposely didn't engage) was absurd but you are entitled to your opinion as am I.
I sort of hope that a GNOME-2 fork comes out of the process and I'll gladly donate the acronym for the project... STUPID (Stupidly Tolerated User Productivity Interface Denial)
Apparently you weren't around when KDE-4 was released and the 'sky is falling' people were howling much the same as now.
Some of us are sure that it is way too soon to declare GNOME-3 as an epic fail.
Craig
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 06:16 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 18.09.2011 02:21, schrieb Craig White:
People who are getting worked up about the current state of GNOME 3 are just being stupid... they have other DM's to choose from
this is a dumb argumentation for several reasons
first of all most people have work to do and not look all the time which desktop does not interrupt their workflow
---- clearly the best way not to interrupt your workflow is not to upgrade at all... who is being stupid here? ----
and stupid are only people who accept all and switching silently because the chance is big if not enough people are saying loud enough that it is stupid throw away a DE and replace it with another one while raise only the version counter sooner or later the desktop they choose now will make the same epic fail
---- First of all, no one 'threw' anything away. GNOME 2 code is available, GPL and if distributions want to maintain it, they can include it forever.
Secondly, if you have a group that shares your view, fork the GNOME code and package it for Fedora or any other distributions... knock yourself out. Seems as though it's awful easy to whine but none of the whiners actually want to do any of the work.
Lastly, you seem eager to speak for many people but I don't see but a handful of vocal obdurates that 400 years ago would have been known as 'flat earth' people. Life goes on, things change, your ox has been gored. Do something about it if you want but recognize that endless whining on list pretty much is a waste of time and energy... suit yourself. ----
the same for "if you are unhappy with the direction fedora goes" everybody who says "switch the distro" must be a child and never worked in his life because he has simply too much time if he can happily switch his whole system
---- nope... pretty much all the distro's are wrestling with the same issues. For that matter, Apple has done much the same with Lion and Microsoft is doing much the same with Windows 8. Everyone is on a drive to produce the next generation user interface. C'est la vie - Oh blah di oh blah da, life goes on.
I switched to Ubuntu server - wasn't a big deal. It was still Linux last time I checked.
Craig
Am 24.09.2011 03:22, schrieb Craig White:
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 06:16 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 18.09.2011 02:21, schrieb Craig White:
People who are getting worked up about the current state of GNOME 3 are just being stupid... they have other DM's to choose from
this is a dumb argumentation for several reasons
first of all most people have work to do and not look all the time which desktop does not interrupt their workflow
clearly the best way not to interrupt your workflow is not to upgrade at all... who is being stupid here?
so you recommend in other words using F4 after EOL in december this year eith all impact: no security updates, no new hardware support?
and stupid are only people who accept all and switching silently because the chance is big if not enough people are saying loud enough that it is stupid throw away a DE and replace it with another one while raise only the version counter sooner or later the desktop they choose now will make the same epic fail
First of all, no one 'threw' anything away. GNOME 2 code is available, GPL and if distributions want to maintain it, they can include it forever.
nice theory, but not more
Secondly, if you have a group that shares your view, fork the GNOME code and package it for Fedora or any other distributions... knock yourself out. Seems as though it's awful easy to whine but none of the whiners actually want to do any of the work.
you are not realize the difference between users and developers!
Lastly, you seem eager to speak for many people but I don't see but a handful of vocal obdurates that 400 years ago would have been known as 'flat earth' people
dumb argument
what have this to do with a actually destroyed workflow?
Life goes on, things change, your ox has been gored. Do something about it if you want but recognize that endless whining on list pretty much is a waste of time and energy... suit yourself
you call it waste of energy
i call it HARDLY NEEDED because the folk who decided invasive changes in users workflows in other cases would think all is super and the next time the same happens again
nope... pretty much all the distro's are wrestling with the same issues. For that matter, Apple has done much the same with Lion and Microsoft is doing much the same with Windows 8. Everyone is on a drive to produce the next generation user interface.
and that is exactly teh problem we DO NOT NEED a apple-clone
there is nothing which i hate more than the missing usability of the apple-gui for power-users - as example: finder is the most laughable filemanager out there
if someone like this crap -> well buy an apple computer!
I switched to Ubuntu server - wasn't a big deal. It was still Linux last time I checked
*lol*
you have swicthed one single webserver with standard packages and think you understand the world? so try to switch a infrastrcuture with > 20 servers intracting 100% automated one with each oter, self written deployments and a bun ch of service-dependencies
you can not and you think only you can because it seems you have never seen a professional environment where people really work with their computers (servers and desktops) the whole day and often also night
On 09/23/2011 06:22 PM, Craig White wrote:
Seems as though it's awful easy to whine but none of the whiners actually want to do any of the work.
You know, I get awful tired of people saying that and ignoring the fact that most people aren't computer programmers and those who are generally don't have the time or the specific expertise needed to create a new fork of Gnome.
But what I get even more tired of is people who can't be bothered to trim their replies so that the rest of us don't have to scroll past all of your bickering over and over to get to your newest nugget of wisdom. Either take it off-list or get rid of all of the old material that we've all seen before.
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 00:28 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/23/2011 06:22 PM, Craig White wrote:
Seems as though it's awful easy to whine but none of the whiners actually want to do any of the work.
You know, I get awful tired of people saying that and ignoring the fact that most people aren't computer programmers and those who are generally don't have the time or the specific expertise needed to create a new fork of Gnome.
But what I get even more tired of is people who can't be bothered to trim their replies so that the rest of us don't have to scroll past all of your bickering over and over to get to your newest nugget of wisdom. Either take it off-list or get rid of all of the old material that we've all seen before.
---- I resent that you chose my reply to call out 'untrimmed' replies because it carries the false implication that I didn't trim. I did and it should be totally obvious that I did if you check. I won't say that I always do but I think that I almost always trim and reply in line to appropriate things.
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
I can appreciate that long time computer users who only use a keyboard, mouse and screen and little adaptability to how they interact with grander concepts of work flow and workspace might want to drive the 1957 Thunderbird forever and if there is a sufficient number of modestly skilled users, they can keep repairing the Thunderbird forever. I wish them luck.
Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term non-change by intent.
Craig
Am 24.09.2011 13:46, schrieb Craig White:
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures.
peopole who WORK with their computer will never use touch input in their normal workflow - not now, not tomorrow and not in ten years!
so the primary user-interfaces should not be designed for toys like iPhone / iPad - these are nice things when you do not have a real computer near you but will never replace a workstation
yes, the count of peopole who is satisified enough with a smartphone is growing becuase they never REALLY used a computer, but stop deisgn interfaces primary for these people and waste a lot of space with buttons (this gnome2 did long before gnome3)
stop to destroy the worklflow of peopole who will really work with their computers and using a workstation now and for the next 30 years!
On 09/24/2011 07:46 AM, Craig White wrote:
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
Problem with argument by analogy is that it often makes little sense.
Every car you buy still has wheels just as the very first ones did (support for keyboard) .. and they all have a steering wheel (a mouse) ... and they all have an engine and a speedometer ... what has happened to cars is largely additions and automation to make things easier (headlamps that track steering - they wisely did not remove headlamps) - switch to LED lights (not remove lights) ... add auto-back-off cruise control for collision avoidance (not force mouse to move to top left) ... etc ect
I can appreciate that long time computer users who only use a keyboard, mouse and screen and little adaptability to how they interact with grander concepts of work flow and workspace might want to drive the 1957 Thunderbird forever and if there is a sufficient number of modestly skilled users, they can keep repairing the Thunderbird forever. I wish them luck.
Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
I would take your point really to mean we should offer a phone/tablet spin as well as a lap/desk top spin. The default spin ... I have no view ... however only having a phone spin for fedora is silly.
Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ...
Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term non-change by intent.
One must use the right tool for the job - the "latest" here is the phone spin - doesn't mean we should switch that for all devices ... lets not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you? :-)
gene
Am 24.09.2011 16:26, schrieb Genes MailLists:
Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
that is exactly the point!
Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ...
right!
and the distributions should be more careful in the future damage their reputation for satisfy "simple users"
On 09/24/2011 07:26 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
On 09/24/2011 07:46 AM, Craig White wrote:
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
Problem with argument by analogy is that it often makes little sense.
Every car you buy still has wheels just as the very first ones did (support for keyboard) .. and they all have a steering wheel (a mouse) ... and they all have an engine and a speedometer ... what has happened to cars is largely additions and automation to make things easier (headlamps that track steering - they wisely did not remove headlamps) - switch to LED lights (not remove lights) ... add auto-back-off cruise control for collision avoidance (not force mouse to move to top left) ... etc ec
I can appreciate that long time computer users who only use a keyboard, mouse and screen and little adaptability to how they interact with grander concepts of work flow and workspace might want to drive the 1957 Thunderbird forever and if there is a sufficient number of modestly skilled users, they can keep repairing the Thunderbird forever. I wish them luck.
Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
I would take your point really to mean we should offer a phone/tablet spin as well as a lap/desk top spin. The default spin ... I have no view ... however only having a phone spin for fedora is silly.
Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ..
Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term non-change by intent.
One must use the right tool for the job - the "latest" here is the phone spin - doesn't mean we should switch that for all devices ... lets not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you? :-)
gene
+1
On September 24, 2011 at 10:02 AM "Daniel B. Thurman" dant@cdkkt.com wrote:
On 09/24/2011 07:26 AM, Genes MailLists wrote:
On 09/24/2011 07:46 AM, Craig White wrote:
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
Problem with argument by analogy is that it often makes little sense.
Every car you buy still has wheels just as the very first ones did (support for keyboard) .. and they all have a steering wheel (a mouse) ... and they all have an engine and a speedometer ... what has happened to cars is largely additions and automation to make things easier (headlamps that track steering - they wisely did not remove headlamps) - switch to LED lights (not remove lights) ... add auto-back-off cruise control for collision avoidance (not force mouse to move to top left) ... etc ec
I can appreciate that long time computer users who only use a keyboard, mouse and screen and little adaptability to how they interact with grander concepts of work flow and workspace might want to drive the 1957 Thunderbird forever and if there is a sufficient number of modestly skilled users, they can keep repairing the Thunderbird forever. I wish them luck.
Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
I would take your point really to mean we should offer a phone/tablet spin as well as a lap/desk top spin. The default spin ... I have no view ... however only having a phone spin for fedora is silly.
Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ..
Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term non-change by intent.
One must use the right tool for the job - the "latest" here is the phone spin - doesn't mean we should switch that for all devices ... lets not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you? :-)
gene
+1
I find it ironic that the people that were screaming about KDE when they went this route are defending Gnome for going the same route.....
Am 24.09.2011 19:23, schrieb pctech@mybellybutton.com:
I find it ironic that the people that were screaming about KDE when they went this route are defending Gnome for going the same route.....
i do not! why?
because it has taken years to get the epic-fail of KDE 4.0 corrected
one thing is making mistakes, but another thing is seeing making others hughe mistakes and instead learn from them make the same mistakes and multiply them with 3D needed, another options hidden and so on
human making mistakes smart human are learning from mistakes stupid human are making the same mistakes over and over
this is simly ignorant and "they made it also" is no valid argument now it's time that developers all over the world take some breath and figure out what wrent wrong the last years, think about what NOT to do and spent a little more brain in major upgrades
this is independent from GONE, KDE or whatever if we keep replacing working things with alpha-quality we will never reach a point where most users are satisfied whith their OS/desktop whatever and this is hopefully not the intention of develp software
(commerical or opensource does really not matter here)
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 10:26 -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:
On 09/24/2011 07:46 AM, Craig White wrote:
Whether people are programmers or not is decidedly not the point here. The GNOME developers have made a decision to revamp the UI to account for the fact that computers are extending beyond the model borne out of Xerox PARC... a keyboard, screen and mouse. They are attempting to satisfy display scenarios that might be as small as a telephone to very large and often multiple large displays. They are attempting to satisfy the fact that keyboards and mice might be eschewed in favor of touch input and gestures. They are attempting to satisfy the notion that usage embraces work flow and workspace(s) and not just application launching.
Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
---- This is a subjective judgment at best since I have seen postings from people who believe that it is a very good desktop implementation. What we know is that it is not quite finished at this point. ----
You can't go to the Ford dealer and buy a brand new 1957 Thunderbird but essentially that is what is being asked of here... an eternal version of GNOME that was envisioned and started 10 years ago.
Problem with argument by analogy is that it often makes little sense.
Every car you buy still has wheels just as the very first ones did (support for keyboard) .. and they all have a steering wheel (a mouse) ... and they all have an engine and a speedometer ... what has happened to cars is largely additions and automation to make things easier (headlamps that track steering - they wisely did not remove headlamps) - switch to LED lights (not remove lights) ... add auto-back-off cruise control for collision avoidance (not force mouse to move to top left) ... etc ect
---- The octane in today's gasoline is not sufficient for the high compression engines from that era. Then there's fuel injection, emission requirements and many technological advances that really make an old car unfeasible at this point... that was the point I was trying to make with the analogy. It didn't seem to be all that complicated but if it doesn't make any sense to you please ignore it as a distraction. ----
Its not the users - its the vehicle - when I'm using a phone/tablet i'll use the tablet version... when I'm using my multi core server I have no touch sensitive screen ... when I'm flying a plane I'll use different controls than driving a car (or a boat). Don't force me to use boat controls for my plane if you don't mind :-)
---- no one is forcing you to do anything and I suspect that touch screens will become prominent for desktop use in the near future. They've always been available but very little software actually made sense of them, thus there's been nothing to drive sales (save for maybe the Wacom Cintiq).
As for a multi-core server... I don't generally have a monitor on them anyway, at least nothing 'dedicated' and more likely a multi-port KVM to share the keyboard, screen & mouse but I think this is clearly not the market that GNOME targets anyway. ----
I would take your point really to mean we should offer a phone/tablet spin as well as a lap/desk top spin. The default spin ... I have no view ... however only having a phone spin for fedora is silly.
Of course we have the other DE's which are better suited - so my suggestion is move Gnome-3 to a tablet spin and make KDE or LXDE or XFCE the desktop spin and be done with this silly bickering.
Vote for which is the default spin or base it on percent of tablets/phones running fedora if you prefer.
---- The reality is that GNOME is a project that develops software for their own purposes. A distribution such as Fedora has entirely separate objectives and packages the bits and pieces that makes sense for it's target audience.
There are a lot of uses for Linux that have nothing to do with anything resembling a Linux desktop. Fedora has an interest in some of them. Ubuntu has an interest in some of them. There's not always intersection.
There are tablets, phones and many different types of devices that employ Linux, possibly GNOME and it seems evident that the current trend is that the laptop and desktop computers of all OS varieties are giving up a growing piece of their installed user base to tablets. ----
Gnome 3 is not -the- future - its just todays tablet spin ...
---- GNOME 3 like Macintosh OS X 'Lion' and Windows 8 consider the form factor as an alternative form factor for a computer. If you have don't have an interest in a tablet at this point, fine. There were still people who believed the earth was flat after Columbus returned to Spain too. ----
Then again, even the most casual reading of the intent of Fedora makes it clear that it embraces the latest technology advances and those who just want things to remain as they are should probably not be using Fedora but something like RHEL or CentOS which provide long term non-change by intent.
One must use the right tool for the job - the "latest" here is the phone spin - doesn't mean we should switch that for all devices ... lets not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you? :-)
---- actually - if I dispense with the absurdity of your premise and consider that the technologies are approaching convergence, possibly but not if the wireless companies continue to maintain complete control over the technology. The flat earth people apparently don't want to believe that the telephone in my pocket with an 854x480 screen is actually a computer and yes, someday I just might want to be able to run Fedora or Ubuntu on it.
Craig
On 09/24/2011 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:
The flat earth people apparently don't want to believe that the telephone in my pocket with an 854x480 screen is actually a computer and yes, someday I just might want to be able to run Fedora or Ubuntu on it.
Please keep *argumentum ad hominem* out of this. It doesn't add anything to your point and alienates people who disagree with you for no good reason.
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 13:03 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/24/2011 12:12 PM, Craig White wrote:
The flat earth people apparently don't want to believe that the telephone in my pocket with an 854x480 screen is actually a computer and yes, someday I just might want to be able to run Fedora or Ubuntu on it.
Please keep *argumentum ad hominem* out of this. It doesn't add anything to your point and alienates people who disagree with you for no good reason.
---- fair enough though I'm not certain that it doesn't add anything to my point... especially when it comes in response to an overtly sarcastic comment, specifically:
lets
not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you?
You seem to be conveniently ignoring the context.
Craig
On 09/24/2011 02:20 PM, Craig White wrote:
fair enough though I'm not certain that it doesn't add anything to my point... especially when it comes in response to an overtly sarcastic comment, specifically:
lets
not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you?
You seem to be conveniently ignoring the context.
No, I'm not ignoring the context, I'm pointing out that personal insults never add anything to a rational debate even if somebody else starts it.
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 14:32 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 09/24/2011 02:20 PM, Craig White wrote:
fair enough though I'm not certain that it doesn't add anything to my point... especially when it comes in response to an overtly sarcastic comment, specifically:
lets
not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you?
You seem to be conveniently ignoring the context.
No, I'm not ignoring the context, I'm pointing out that personal insults never add anything to a rational debate even if somebody else starts it.
---- then you just fail to see the similarity between those who believed the earth was flat after Columbus returned to Spain and those who actually believe that holding a laptop to your face is their only concept of a computer driven telephone. If you want to believe it's an insult - that's your choice. I think it's rather analogous.
This is not the first time that you have impressed me with your ability to create inference out of your own impressions.
Craig
On 09/24/2011 07:36 PM, Craig White wrote:
I think it's rather analogous.
This is not the first time that you have impressed me with your ability to create inference out of your own impressions.
It may or may not be a valid analogy, but it's certainly phrased in an insulting way. I'll not speculate as to whether or not that's what you intended but it is what you achieved. As far as my inferences go, that's what inference is all about, as you can see here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inference
On 09/24/2011 05:20 PM, Craig White wrote:
lets
not pretend you're gonna hold your laptop up to your face and make a call ... are you?
You seem to be conveniently ignoring the context.
Craig
So did you a bit - I put a smiley in there ... my comment was light hearted ... and the smiley was to make that clear ... the vision of an ipad held to ones cheek makes me smile anyway ...
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 10:26:49AM -0400, Genes MailLists wrote:>
Its one thing to add tablet/phone ("metro") mode - its another to make laptops (or desktops) much more difficult to use.
You should stop and think about how 'ego-centric' your remarks are. "We" on this mailing list hardly represent the great "unwashed" mass of computer (computer like device) users.
I could probably produce on short notice say about 20 'users' who do not agree with you. And these masses keep the manufacturers (Dell, Lenovo, etc) in business, not us. A lot of them will have little difficulty adapting to Unity/Gnome 3
And all these other 'changes' making laptops much more difficult to use, such as say - UEFI - the 16:9 format of the screens I don't hear you fulminating against these.
And have you stopped to think what a "computer" (desktop/laptop) might look like in say 20 years time.
Alexander
Am 25.09.2011 11:13, schrieb Alexander Volovics:
And all these other 'changes' making laptops much more difficult to use, such as say
- UEFI
only for multi-boot systems
in times of virtualization where you can even run an ESXi5 in VMware-Workstation and inside this x86_64 guests with good performance multi-boot systems are only needed on old hardware
well this old hardware has no UEFI
- the 16:9 format of the screens
is only a real problem since especially GNOME/GTK apps are watsing space for toolbars to satify touch screens
And have you stopped to think what a "computer" (desktop/laptop) might look like in say 20 years time
for writing letters, develop software and the usual tasks of power users the same way than today or will you use an IDE like eclpise with a touch-screen without a keyboard and mouse?
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 12:12 -0700, Craig White wrote:
I suspect that touch screens will become prominent for desktop use in the near future. They've always been available but very little software actually made sense of them, thus there's been nothing to drive sales (save for maybe the Wacom Cintiq).
They may be intuitive to use, and reasonable for basic things (screens that are NOT full of things to press), but bad news for screens with lots of clickable things on them, and bad news for anyone having to hold their arm up to a screen to do anything more than press once every few minutes. You'd need to sink the monitor into the desk, before touchscreens on a desktop become sensible.
On Sun, 2011-09-25 at 11:13 +0200, Alexander Volovics wrote:
And all these other 'changes' making laptops much more difficult to use, such as say
- the 16:9 format of the screens
That depends on the use of the computer. For spreadsheets, which are usually wider than taller, they can be useful. Likewise with applications that have a picture window and lots of palettes around them.
Though, personally, I prefer bigger, very high resolution, and probably somewhere around 4:3. Since most of my reading seems to be mail and web.
Most screens tend to be rather poor resolution, so you have little choice but to run windows full-screen, and with biggish fonts.
On 09/25/2011 02:13 AM, Alexander Volovics wrote:
I could probably produce on short notice say about 20 'users' who do not agree with you. And these masses keep the manufacturers (Dell, Lenovo, etc) in business, not us. A lot of them will have little difficulty adapting to Unity/Gnome 3
I'm sure you could. How many of them already use Linux and how many have no idea what it is?
On 09/25/2011 05:49 AM, Tim wrote:
Most screens tend to be rather poor resolution, so you have little choice but to run windows full-screen, and with biggish fonts.
I've never had a problem with that, and until April, when I had cataract surgery, I was intensely nearsighted. Of course, I do keep my monitor closer than most people do, but that's because I still need reading glasses and it's simpler.
Tim:
Most screens tend to be rather poor resolution, so you have little choice but to run windows full-screen, and with biggish fonts.
Joe Zeff:
I've never had a problem with that, and until April, when I had cataract surgery, I was intensely nearsighted. Of course, I do keep my monitor closer than most people do, but that's because I still need reading glasses and it's simpler.
With a low resolution device, there's a finite limit to how small writing can be, before you run out of pixels to show nice looking writing. Sure, chunky (English) text can be drawn with a minimum of about 7 by 8 pixels, like the old dot matrix printers and green screen VDUs. But it looks ugly, and isn't really enough for anything beyond ye olde A-Z characters.
So, that mean there's a minimum font size limit. Then, to see as much as the page as you can, to avoid the "reading a magazine through a keyhole" effect, it also means a largish minimum window size limit.
And, in my case, I do not like being close to monitors. Particularly VDUs that strobe. So I'm using to viewing them from probably double the distance most people would.
On Sat, 2011-09-24 at 09:17 +0200, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 24.09.2011 03:22, schrieb Craig White:
clearly the best way not to interrupt your workflow is not to upgrade at all... who is being stupid here?
so you recommend in other words using F4 after EOL in december this year eith all impact: no security updates, no new hardware support?
---- Not really - I have recommended that those who value work flow should really be using a 'stable' distribution with a much longer life-cycle than Fedora. ----
Lastly, you seem eager to speak for many people but I don't see but a handful of vocal obdurates that 400 years ago would have been known as 'flat earth' people
dumb argument
what have this to do with a actually destroyed workflow?
Life goes on, things change, your ox has been gored. Do something about it if you want but recognize that endless whining on list pretty much is a waste of time and energy... suit yourself
you call it waste of energy
i call it HARDLY NEEDED because the folk who decided invasive changes in users workflows in other cases would think all is super and the next time the same happens again
---- Umm... Fedora is committed to being an early adopter of software in order to advance development. That means that there are times when some of the software that you use undergoes change, sometimes minor, sometimes major. If you can't deal with change then don't use Fedora and use something that favors stability and resists change. RHEL, CentOS, Scientific Linux, Debian, etc. ----
nope... pretty much all the distro's are wrestling with the same issues. For that matter, Apple has done much the same with Lion and Microsoft is doing much the same with Windows 8. Everyone is on a drive to produce the next generation user interface.
and that is exactly teh problem we DO NOT NEED a apple-clone
---- No one has said anything about cloning anything. Some people actually recognize that the thing we know as a computer is in a state of metamorphosis... tablets, smartbooks, telephones are all various forms of a computer now. Obviously many software developers are taking notice that the form factor is experiencing a shift and thus the software either shifts or risks becoming irrelevant. That was my point about Apple and Microsoft struggling to maintain relevancy by converging their user interface between telephones, tablets and common computer forms. ----
I switched to Ubuntu server - wasn't a big deal. It was still Linux last time I checked
*lol*
you have swicthed one single webserver with standard packages and think you understand the world? so try to switch a infrastrcuture with > 20 servers intracting 100% automated one with each oter, self written deployments and a bun ch of service-dependencies
you can not and you think only you can because it seems you have never seen a professional environment where people really work with their computers (servers and desktops) the whole day and often also night
---- I suppose the 50+ servers I am doing end to end software and configuration management with puppet & foreman cannot possibly qualify as the type of infrastructure you manage... and your vast skills for ip address management via DHCP.
Craig
I have a theory, based on the reason I use FVWM ahead of all of them: The gnome and KDE developers have now both exhibited an extreme propensity for jerking the rug out from under folks. People are looking for something they won't have to relearn every time developers get a bee in their bonnet. That pretty much totally excludes both gnome and KDE from any consideration.
I strongly suspect both XFCE and LXDE will wind up having the same thing happen, they both seem to exhibit evidence of being actively developed, which means bees could arrive in new bonnets at any moment :-).
I'll stick with FVWM and sample the new version of whatever is standard in fedora on each release just long enough to use it to get mt FVWM environment back. --
Hi Tom,
I am curious: how do you handle wifi connections? Do you do things from the command line, and then, where do you put in the passwords and other codes? Or do you use wicd-tools or NetworkManager or the like? How about bluetooth?
It appears that fvwm as well as enlightenment will be orphaned in F16.
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-July/154177.html
Also, how does fvwm relate with fluxbox?
Best wishes, Ranjan
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:29:24 -0500 Ranjan Maitra wrote:
I am curious: how do you handle wifi connections? Do you do things from the command line, and then, where do you put in the passwords and other codes? Or do you use wicd-tools or NetworkManager or the like? How about bluetooth?
I don't need silly icons in panels in order to run things like the network connections program, the programs can be invoked perfectly well from a terminal or a menu entry in a .fvwmrc file (though mostly I don't use wi-fi since just about all the systems I use are desktops with hardwired connections).
It appears that fvwm as well as enlightenment will be orphaned in F16.
That's OK, it is easy to build from source, so I'll just start doing that.
Also, how does fvwm relate with fluxbox?
Don't have any idea what a fluxbox is :-).
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:00 AM, Tom Horsley horsley1953@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 08:29:24 -0500 Ranjan Maitra wrote:
I am curious: how do you handle wifi connections? Do you do things from the command line, and then, where do you put in the passwords and other codes? Or do you use wicd-tools or NetworkManager or the like? How about bluetooth?
I don't need silly icons in panels in order to run things like the network connections program, the programs can be invoked perfectly well from a terminal or a menu entry in a .fvwmrc file (though mostly I don't use wi-fi since just about all the systems I use are desktops with hardwired connections).
It appears that fvwm as well as enlightenment will be orphaned in F16.
That's OK, it is easy to build from source, so I'll just start doing that.
Also, how does fvwm relate with fluxbox?
Don't have any idea what a fluxbox is :-).
You're just like me, HA. I like LXDE because its fast and simple too. if you're still using fvwm, you might enjoy looking at something called qvwm, its been a while since i used it, but it was fast too.
-
Alan Cox -
Alexander Volovics -
Antonio Olivares -
Birger Monsen -
Bob Goodwin -
Bryce Hardy -
Charlie Brune -
Christopher Svanefalk -
Craig White -
Dan Thurman -
Frank Murphy -
Frank Tanner III -
Frederick N. Brier -
Genes MailLists -
Gjermund Bjaanes -
Heinz Diehl -
JB -
Joe Zeff -
John Aldrich -
Kevin Cummings -
Kevin Fenzi -
Marko Vojinovic -
Matthew Saltzman -
Michael Ekstrand -
mike cloaked -
Noah Hall -
nomnex -
Olav Vitters -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Pedro Francisco -
Ranjan Maitra -
Reindl Harald -
Rick Stevens -
Smith, Herb -
Smith, Herb
-
solarflow99 -
stan -
Suvayu Ali -
Tim -
Tom Horsley