Why I think FC3 sucks!

[Edward Yang]

After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why 
the post aroused so much agitation.

1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* sucks'. 
But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3 
sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.

2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the 
hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so 
they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name 
calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, 
please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a 
small part of it.

Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. 
Note that I did not have experience with FC2.

1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.

2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error 
messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its 
failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.

3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can 
boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.

4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
almost unbearable.

5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, 
in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it 
actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but 
since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's 
quite reasonable.

6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up 
time is longer than FC1.

7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet 
it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000 
installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. 
I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or 
even worse.

8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.

Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.

Thanks.

[Pasha R]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
>  why the post aroused so much agitation.
>
>  1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
>  sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
>  sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
>  experience.
>
>  2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
>  the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and 
>  so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name 
>  calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. 
>  But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I 
>  mean a small part of it.
>
>  Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. 
>  Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
>
>  1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
>  bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult. 
This is a matter of personal preference. For me, FC installation looks 
pretty easy - much easier than any version of Windows i tried.

>  2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
>  error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
>  caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html. 
Sorry, but this is a problem in virrtual PC and has nothing to do with 
Fedora, no matter the reason. There are a lot of windows apps that don't 
run in wine of Crossover Office. Is it right to say that these apps suck?

>  3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can 
>  boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
>
>  4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
>  memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
>  memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
>  almost unbearable. 
I didn't try FC1, but on my machine, both FC2 and FC3 run significantly 
faster than RH9. When I installed FC2, it really made me feel that 
somehow it upgraded my CPU. Your problem may be eithere poorly supported 
hardware or, most probably, bad emulation in virtual pc

>  5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, 
>  in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, 
>  it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to 
>  gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to 
>  FC3. It's quite reasonable. 
Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either stop 
tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an emulator that 
needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is configured to generate 
ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I never changed this. So, you 
probably just configured del to be a backspace.

>  6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
>  up time is longer than FC1. 
Look in release notes how to disable graphical boot.

>  7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
>  Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
>  2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
>  selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
>  better or even worse. 
It depends on what else you chose to install. Win2k is 1.5gb and all it 
provides is notepad. If you learn linux programming, you probably 
installed development tools, and some other tools - depending on what 
you are trying to do - databases, kernel sources, etc. Also, did you 
install stuff like OpenOffice etc.?

>  8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
>
>  Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
>  Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves 
>  here.
>
>  Thanks.
>

[Edward Yang]

Pasha wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
> > why the post aroused so much agitation.
> >
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
> > sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
> > sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
> > experience.
> >
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
> > the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, 
> > and so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at 
> > name calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux 
> > communitiy. But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux 
> > community is bad, I mean a small part of it.
> >
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than 
> > FC1. Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not 
> > any bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
>
>
>  This is a matter of personal preference. For me, FC installation looks 
>  pretty easy - much easier than any version of Windows i tried.
>
> >
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
> > error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
> > caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
>
>
>  Sorry, but this is a problem in virrtual PC and has nothing to do with 
>  Fedora, no matter the reason. There are a lot of windows apps that 
>  don't run in wine of Crossover Office. Is it right to say that these 
>  apps suck?
>
> >
> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can 
> > boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
> > memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
> > memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time 
> > is almost unbearable.
>
>
>  I didn't try FC1, but on my machine, both FC2 and FC3 run 
>  significantly faster than RH9. When I installed FC2, it really made me 
>  feel that somehow it upgraded my CPU. Your problem may be eithere 
>  poorly supported hardware or, most probably, bad emulation in virtual pc
>
> >
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> > example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile 
> > settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific 
> > only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the 
> > problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
>
>
>  Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either stop 
>  tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an emulator 
>  that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is configured to 
>  generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I never changed 
>  this. So, you probably just configured del to be a backspace.
>  
What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my dictionary, 
bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it should to work. 
Your above comment is like saying - that DEL option is the ears of a 
deaf, don't use it!

> >
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
> > up time is longer than FC1.
>
>
>  Look in release notes how to disable graphical boot.
>
> >
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
> > Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
> > 2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
> > selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
> > better or even worse.
>
>
>  It depends on what else you chose to install. Win2k is 1.5gb and all 
>  it provides is notepad. If you learn linux programming, you probably 
>  installed development tools, and some other tools - depending on what 
>  you are trying to do - databases, kernel sources, etc. Also, did you 
>  install stuff like OpenOffice etc.?
>
> >
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and 
> > Open Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new 
> > waves here.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

[Pasha R]

> >>
> >> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile 
> >> settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific 
> >> only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the 
> >> problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >
> >
> >
> > Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either stop 
> > tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an emulator 
> > that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is configured to 
> > generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I never changed 
> > this. So, you probably just configured del to be a backspace.
> >
>
>  What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my dictionary, 
>  bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it should to work. 
>  Your above comment is like saying - that DEL option is the ears of a 
>  deaf, don't use it! 
Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and complain 
that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to default and it will 
work as you expect it to work. This option is probably for compatibility 
with some terminals, where DEL works as backspace. If you don't want it 
to act that way, don't configure it so.

[Edward Yang]

Pasha wrote:

> >
> >
> >>>
> >>> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >>> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile 
> >>> settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific 
> >>> only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the 
> >>> problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either 
> >> stop tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an 
> >> emulator that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is 
> >> configured to generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I 
> >> never changed this. So, you probably just configured del to be a 
> >> backspace.
> >>
> >
> > What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my 
> > dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it 
> > should to work. Your above comment is like saying - that DEL option 
> > is the ears of a deaf, don't use it!
>
>
>  Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and complain 
>  that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to default and it 
>  will work as you expect it to work. This option is probably for 
>  compatibility with some terminals, where DEL works as backspace. If 
>  you don't want it to act that way, don't configure it so.
>  
Can you read???????????????? I said:

if I set DEL to ASCII DEL

[Pasha R]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  Pasha wrote:
>
> >>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >>>> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the 
> >>>> profile settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be 
> >>>> specific only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I 
> >>>> attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either 
> >>> stop tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an 
> >>> emulator that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is 
> >>> configured to generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I 
> >>> never changed this. So, you probably just configured del to be a 
> >>> backspace.
> >>>
> >>
> >> What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my 
> >> dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it 
> >> should to work. Your above comment is like saying - that DEL option 
> >> is the ears of a deaf, don't use it!
> >
> >
> > Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and complain 
> > that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to default and it 
> > will work as you expect it to work. This option is probably for 
> > compatibility with some terminals, where DEL works as backspace. If 
> > you don't want it to act that way, don't configure it so.
> >
>  Can you read???????????????? I said:
>
>  if I set DEL to ASCII DEL 
First, there is no need to shout.
Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In Thunderbird 
composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text.

If you look more closely, you can see that ASCII DEL is also generated 
by backspace. For me this means, that if I set Del to the same setting 
as backspace, it will act the same way as backspace. Also, you may be 
surprised, but originally ASCII DEL (and delete key) acted as backspace. 
I don't remember where it was changed, probably in MS-DOS. Anyway, there 
are a lot of hints telling that you should not touch that setting at 
all. In any case this is not a bug.

[Edward Yang]

Pasha wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > Pasha wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >>>>> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the 
> >>>>> profile settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be 
> >>>>> specific only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I 
> >>>>> attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either 
> >>>> stop tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an 
> >>>> emulator that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is 
> >>>> configured to generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I 
> >>>> never changed this. So, you probably just configured del to be a 
> >>>> backspace.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my 
> >>> dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it 
> >>> should to work. Your above comment is like saying - that DEL option 
> >>> is the ears of a deaf, don't use it!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and 
> >> complain that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to default 
> >> and it will work as you expect it to work. This option is probably 
> >> for compatibility with some terminals, where DEL works as backspace. 
> >> If you don't want it to act that way, don't configure it so.
> >>
> > Can you read???????????????? I said:
> >
> > if I set DEL to ASCII DEL
>
>
>  First, there is no need to shout.
>  Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In 
>  Thunderbird composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text.
>
>  If you look more closely, you can see that ASCII DEL is also generated 
>  by backspace. For me this means, that if I set Del to the same setting 
>  as backspace, it will act the same way as backspace. Also, you may be 
>  surprised, but originally ASCII DEL (and delete key) acted as 
>  backspace. I don't remember where it was changed, probably in MS-DOS. 
>  Anyway, there are a lot of hints telling that you should not touch 
>  that setting at all. In any case this is not a bug.
>  
Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only the 
usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If you 
can't read it, please ignore me.

ASCII DEL = ASCII 7 and ASCII BS = 8.

Do you mean 7 == 8?

[Dave Cross]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:48:44 +0800, Edward Yang
<neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   Pasha wrote: 
>
> >  Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In Thunderbird
> > composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text. 
>
>   Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only the
>  usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If you can't
>  read it, please ignore me. 
No. You're quite right. It isn't forbidden by law. However, on
technical mailing lists like this you'll often find that many of the
most knowledgable members of the list will ignore mail that is sent in
HTML. If you want to take the risk that the people most likely to help
you will just ignore your message then just carry on posting in HTML.
Sounds a bit of a silly idea to me tho'.

Dave...

[Edward Yang]

Dave Cross wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:48:44 +0800, Edward Yang
> <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> > Pasha wrote: 
> >
> >    
> >
> >> Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In Thunderbird
> >>composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text. 
> >>      
> >>
> > Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only the
> >usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If you can't
> >read it, please ignore me.
> >    
> >
>
> No. You're quite right. It isn't forbidden by law. However, on
> technical mailing lists like this you'll often find that many of the
> most knowledgable members of the list will ignore mail that is sent in
> HTML. If you want to take the risk that the people most likely to help
> you will just ignore your message then just carry on posting in HTML.
> Sounds a bit of a silly idea to me tho'.
>
> Dave...
>
>   
>  
Thanks for advice. I still choose to post in HTML.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Edward Yang wrote:

... snip ...

>  Thanks for advice. I still choose to post in HTML. 
that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
hat lists.

life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.

rday

[Edward Yang]

Robert P. J. Day wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Edward Yang wrote:
>
> ... snip ...
>
>   
>
> >Thanks for advice. I still choose to post in HTML.
> >    
> >
>
> that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
> the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
> dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
> hat lists.
>
> life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
> who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
>
> rday
>
>   
>  
Thanks. This is the first time that I have ever heard the words *troll* 
and *moron* in just one day.

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Edward Yang wrote:

>  Thanks. This is the first time that I have ever heard the words
>  *troll* and *moron* in just one day. 
i don't believe that for a second.

rday

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

>  
>  that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
>  the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
>  dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
>  hat lists.
>  
>  life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
>  who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
>   
mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse

-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

[Edward Yang]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Hi
>
>   
>
> >that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
> >the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
> >dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
> >hat lists.
> >
> >life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
> >who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
> >
> >    
> >
>
> mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
> posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse
>
>   
>  
THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell...

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi

 mailing list etiquette also includes
>  avoiding name calling people. posting in html was a bad thing to do.
> name
>  calling is even worse  

THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell...
---

i havent claimed otherwise. 
  


-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Edward Yang wrote:

>  Rahul Sundaram wrote: 
>  > mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling
> people.
>  > posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse 
normally, i'd agree, but there's just *so* *many* *times* that one can
go through this "please don't post in HTML" nonsense.

it is *way* past time for red hat to put some simple etiquette rules
at http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/communicate, under the
"Mailing Lists" section.  apparently, until it's an *official* edict
from red hat and on one of their own pages, this is going to continue.

dear red hat: please deal with this.  i'm begging you.

rday

[Robert Storey]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:01:41 -0500 (EST)
"Robert P. J. Day" <rpjday(a)mindspring.com&gt; wrote:

>  normally, i'd agree, but there's just *so* *many* *times*
> that one can
>  go through this "please don't post in HTML" nonsense. 
I think it's time for you to set up a mail filter. You can set this up
with a specialized program (there is an excellent one called
"Mailfilter" which I use - http://mailfilter.sourceforge.net) or just
use the filtering on your email client (I use Sylpheed).

To send all html mail to trash, filter the heading:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

Or if you only want to send html mail on the Fedora list to trash, use a
logical AND:

To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;

   AND

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;

That should take care of it. For good.

cheers,
Robert

[Jeff Kinz]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:43:40PM +0800, Robert Storey wrote:
>  I think it's time for you to set up a mail filter. You can set
> this up
>  with a specialized program (there is an excellent one called
>  "Mailfilter" which I use - http://mailfilter.sourceforge.net) or just
>  use the filtering on your email client (I use Sylpheed).
>  
>  To send all html mail to trash, filter the heading:
>  
>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  
>  Or if you only want to send html mail on the Fedora list to trash, use a
>  logical AND:
>  
>  To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  
>     AND
>  
>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  
>  That should take care of it. For good. 
Say, Robert - I think this filter is too loose.  This method will also
trash text based email which are PGP signed.  Thats not what you want.

But you are on the right track.

Perhaps something that tracks more closely on html, like this line from
my procmailrc file (this line is in a recipe which looks only at email
headers and it is case insensitive):

* ^content-type:.*html


-- 
Linux/Open Source:  Your infrastructure belongs to you, free, forever.
Idealism:  "Realism applied over a longer time period"
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/
http://kinz.org
http://www.fedoratracker.org http://www.fedorafaq.org
http://www.fedoranews.org
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.

[James Wilkinson]

Robert Storey and Jeff Kinz were discussing procmail scripts to "handle"
HTML mail.

Robert wrote:
>  To send all html mail to trash, filter the heading:
>   
>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  
>  Or if you only want to send html mail on the Fedora list to trash, use a
>  logical AND:
>  
>  To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  
>     AND
>  
>  Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  
>  That should take care of it. For good. 
Jeff replied:
>  Say, Robert - I think this filter is too loose.  This method will
> also
>  trash text based email which are PGP signed.  Thats not what you want. 
Will it? PGP signed e-mail should be multipart/mixed or
multipart/signed (depending on how much is signed).

On the other hand, it *won't* get simple HTML-only mail:
Content-Type: text/html is perfectly valid.

>  But you are on the right track.
>  
>  Perhaps something that tracks more closely on html, like this line from
>  my procmailrc file (this line is in a recipe which looks only at email
>  headers and it is case insensitive):
>  
>  * ^content-type:.*html 
That shouldn't get *any* Fedora List e-mail...

The mailman mailing list software that Red Hat uses, as you know, sticks
a list signature at the end of every e-mail. It's trivial to do this for
plain text, very difficult to do for arbitrarily complex HTML, and
impossible for signed e-mail that uses MIME to store the signature.

So if you have a MIME e-mail that isn't just text/plain, mailman will
stick in another MIME part with the signature in plain text, and set the
content-type for the entire message to multipart/mixed.  And when
procmail is examining headers, it doesn't include MIME message part
headers.

I have this in my .procmailrc: it is designed to catch *list* mail that
has an HTML part *without* a corresponding text/plain part. So far, it
hasn't been fooled:

:0 fhw
* ^content-type: multipart/mixed
* B ?? ^content-type: text/html
* B ?? !^content-type: multipart/alternative
* B ?? !^content-disposition: attachment
| formail -A "X-Label: html-only"
# sort out Red Hat's footers. Come to that, it should pick up on any text/html
# that doesn't have an equivalent text/ something else.
# Now we have to wait for something to fool the regexps... oh well.

Mutt can do scoring on the X-Label I'm putting in the header. And since
I use mutt, I'm more interested in flagging e-mails without the main
part of the e-mail in text.

(The "content-disposition" line will mean the mail doesn't get flagged
if it includes an HTML file as an attachment: you may well want to leave
that line out. It seems *very* difficult to make sure that the
content-disposition relates to the HTML message part, and I'd rather be
cautious).

Take out the multipart/alternative bit if you want to get *all* mail
with HTML content.

James.

-- 
James Wilkinson       | Anonymous:          What do you think of Stainer's
Exeter    Devon    UK |                     "Crucifixion"?
E-mail address: james | Sir Thomas Beecham: Good idea! 
@westexe.demon.co.uk  |

[Jeff Kinz]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:16:16PM +0000, James Wilkinson wrote:
>  Robert Storey and Jeff Kinz were discussing procmail scripts to
> "handle"
>  HTML mail.
>  
>  Robert wrote:
>  > Or if you only want to send html mail on the Fedora list to trash, use a
>  > logical AND:
>  > To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  >    AND
>  > Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>  > That should take care of it. For good.
>  
>  Jeff replied:
>  > Say, Robert - I think this filter is too loose.  This method will also
>  > trash text based email which are PGP signed.  Thats not what you want.
>  
>  Will it? PGP signed e-mail should be multipart/mixed or
>  multipart/signed (depending on how much is signed).
>  
>  On the other hand, it *won't* get simple HTML-only mail:
>  Content-Type: text/html is perfectly valid.
>  
>  > But you are on the right track.
>  > 
>  > Perhaps something that tracks more closely on html, like this line from
>  > my procmailrc file (this line is in a recipe which looks only at email
>  > headers and it is case insensitive):
>  > 
>  > * ^content-type:.*html
>  
>  That shouldn't get *any* Fedora List e-mail... 
Thats not the entire recipe. 
In real life testing (this list) my procmail recipe identifies and
filters out all the html email, ( both text-html or just html) into
trash/spam folders with 100% accuracy, since it was installed.

Now, the remainder of the exercise is to figure out what the rest of the
recipe holds.  Since Robert is on the right track and since he may not
be working from the same set of assumptions I use in my procmail set up,
I felt it best to simply hint him in a productive direction rather than
simply hand him a pre-wrapped solution that only works in my
environment.


-- 
Linux/Open Source:  Your infrastructure belongs to you, free, forever.
Idealism:  "Realism applied over a longer time period"
http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/
http://kinz.org
http://www.fedoratracker.org http://www.fedorafaq.org
http://www.fedoranews.org
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.

[Pasha R]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
> >Hi
> >
> >  
> >
> >>that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
> >>the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
> >>dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
> >>hat lists.
> >>
> >>life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
> >>who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
> >posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse
> >
> >  
> >
>  THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell... 
Wrong. This is Fedora Core community.

[Jeff Vian]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 21:51 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote: 
>  > Hi
>  > 
>  >   
>  > > that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note
> to
>  > > the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
>  > > dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
>  > > hat lists.
>  > > 
>  > > life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
>  > > who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
>  > > 
>  > >     
>  > 
>  > mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
>  > posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse
>  > 
>  >   
>  THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell... 

community implies just that. Members of a community work together and
try to get along.

Those who refuse to comply with the community standards get ostracized.

[Jeff Vian]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 21:51 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote: 
>  > Hi
>  > 
>  >   
>  > > that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note
> to
>  > > the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
>  > > dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
>  > > hat lists.
>  > > 
>  > > life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
>  > > who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
>  > > 
>  > >     
>  > 
>  > mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
>  > posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse
>  > 
>  >   
>  THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell... 
Your short email above is actually this

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--===============1536995009==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------050105060905050005060901"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------050105060905050005060901
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Hi
>
>   
>
> >that's it, i've had all of this i can take.  i've CCed this note to
> >the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
> >dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
> >hat lists.
> >
> >life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
> >who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.
> >
> >    
> >
>
> mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
> posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse
>
>   
>  
THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the hell...

--------------050105060905050005060901
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-
Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Rahul Sundaram wrote:
<blockquote cite=&quot;midc79487d605012705459f594a4(a)mail.gmail.com&quot;
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Hi

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">that's it, i've had all of this i can take. 
i've CCed
this note to
the fedora-list-admin account at red hat, with the request that this
dickhead be banned from this (and all other, if that's possible) red
hat lists.

life is just way too short to have to put up with inconsiderate morons
who have no respect for mailing list etiquette.

    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
mailing list etiquette also includes avoiding name calling people.
posting in html was a bad thing to do. name calling is even worse

  </pre>
</blockquote>
<font face="Georgia">THIS IS LINUX COMMUNITY!!! What the
hell...</font><br>
</body>
</html>

--------------050105060905050005060901--


--===============1536995009==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

-- 
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
--===============1536995009==--

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi
'. Dave... Thanks for advice. I still choose to post in HTML.

and you are looking for help here?. 


-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

[Temlakos]

Dave Cross wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:48:44 +0800, Edward Yang
>  <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>  
> > Pasha wrote: 
> >
> >
> >> Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In Thunderbird
> >>composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text. 
> >
> > Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only the
> >usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If you can't
> >read it, please ignore me.
>  
>  
>  No. You're quite right. It isn't forbidden by law. However, on
>  technical mailing lists like this you'll often find that many of the
>  most knowledgable members of the list will ignore mail that is sent in
>  HTML. If you want to take the risk that the people most likely to help
>  you will just ignore your message then just carry on posting in HTML.
>  Sounds a bit of a silly idea to me tho'.
>  
>  Dave... 
Why can't he just configure T-Bird, or even Evo, to recognize 
fedora-list(a)redhat.com as a user who doesn't want to receive HTML mail, 
and convert all mail to plain text? Such a simple thing!

Temlakos

[Gerald Thompson]

Temlakos wrote:

>  Why can't he just configure T-Bird, or even Evo, to recognize 
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com as a user who doesn't want to receive HTML 
>  mail, and convert all mail to plain text? Such a simple thing!
>
>  Temlakos 
Temlakos makes a good point, its really easy to set domains that don't 
want to receive html mail.  I still use html mail for certain people who 
want a little bit of color in a message, like my 8 year old niece.  But 
for all the technical lists I subscribe to I just add the domain to the 
plain text only domains section in Thunderbird options.  This way I 
never accidentally send an html message to the list either.

Sincerely,
Gerald

[Pasha R]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  Pasha wrote:
>
> > Edward Yang wrote:
> >
> >> Pasha wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >>>>>> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the 
> >>>>>> profile settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may 
> >>>>>> be specific only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3,
> so I 
> >>>>>> attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either 
> >>>>> stop tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is an 
> >>>>> emulator that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is 
> >>>>> configured to generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and 
> >>>>> I never changed this. So, you probably just configured del to be 
> >>>>> a backspace.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my 
> >>>> dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it 
> >>>> should to work. Your above comment is like saying - that DEL 
> >>>> option is the ears of a deaf, don't use it!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and 
> >>> complain that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to 
> >>> default and it will work as you expect it to work. This option is 
> >>> probably for compatibility with some terminals, where DEL works as 
> >>> backspace. If you don't want it to act that way, don't configure it 
> >>> so.
> >>>
> >> Can you read???????????????? I said:
> >>
> >> if I set DEL to ASCII DEL
> >
> >
> > First, there is no need to shout.
> > Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In 
> > Thunderbird composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text.
> >
> > If you look more closely, you can see that ASCII DEL is also 
> > generated by backspace. For me this means, that if I set Del to the 
> > same setting as backspace, it will act the same way as backspace. 
> > Also, you may be surprised, but originally ASCII DEL (and delete key) 
> > acted as backspace. I don't remember where it was changed, probably 
> > in MS-DOS. Anyway, there are a lot of hints telling that you should 
> > not touch that setting at all. In any case this is not a bug.
> >
>  Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only 
>  the usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If 
>  you can't read it, please ignore me.
>
>  ASCII DEL = ASCII 7 and ASCII BS = 8.
>
>  Do you mean 7 == 8? 
7 is ASCII BEL not DEL. This character produces a bell sound when 
printed. ASCII DEL is 8 and is synonim of ASCII BS.

Concerning HTML: If you search this list you'll find plenty of 
explanations on why HTML is bad for posting on mailing lists. You will 
also find some other rules. The most important, however is a practical 
one: HTML postings are ignored (and in some cases automatically deleted) 
by many members of the list, especially by those who can actually help 
you. So, your chance to receive help in this (and most others) mailing 
list is significantly reduced.

[Edward Yang]

Pasha wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > Pasha wrote:
> >
> >> Edward Yang wrote:
> >>
> >>> Pasha wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For
>
> >>>>>>> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the 
> >>>>>>> profile settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug
> may 
> >>>>>>> be specific only to gnome, but since it's bundled with
> FC3, so 
> >>>>>>> I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Never had such problem with any version of linux i tried. Either
>
> >>>>>> stop tweaking options you don't understand or (again) it is
> an 
> >>>>>> emulator that needs tweaking. BTW, in my terminal, backspace is 
> >>>>>> configured to generate ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and
>
> >>>>>> I never changed this. So, you probably just configured del to be
>
> >>>>>> a backspace.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What do you define the word 'bug' in software world? In my 
> >>>>> dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not work as it 
> >>>>> should to work. Your above comment is like saying - that DEL 
> >>>>> option is the ears of a deaf, don't use it!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and 
> >>>> complain that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to 
> >>>> default and it will work as you expect it to work. This option is 
> >>>> probably for compatibility with some terminals, where DEL works as 
> >>>> backspace. If you don't want it to act that way, don't configure
>
> >>>> it so.
> >>>>
> >>> Can you read???????????????? I said:
> >>>
> >>> if I set DEL to ASCII DEL
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> First, there is no need to shout.
> >> Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In 
> >> Thunderbird composition window, select Options/Format/Plain Text.
> >>
> >> If you look more closely, you can see that ASCII DEL is also 
> >> generated by backspace. For me this means, that if I set Del to the 
> >> same setting as backspace, it will act the same way as backspace. 
> >> Also, you may be surprised, but originally ASCII DEL (and delete 
> >> key) acted as backspace. I don't remember where it was changed, 
> >> probably in MS-DOS. Anyway, there are a lot of hints telling that 
> >> you should not touch that setting at all. In any case this is not a 
> >> bug.
> >>
> > Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's only 
> > the usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to follow it. If 
> > you can't read it, please ignore me.
> >
> > ASCII DEL = ASCII 7 and ASCII BS = 8.
> >
> > Do you mean 7 == 8?
>
>
>  7 is ASCII BEL not DEL. This character produces a bell sound when 
>  printed. ASCII DEL is 8 and is synonim of ASCII BS.
>
>  Concerning HTML: If you search this list you'll find plenty of 
>  explanations on why HTML is bad for posting on mailing lists. You will 
>  also find some other rules. The most important, however is a practical 
>  one: HTML postings are ignored (and in some cases automatically 
>  deleted) by many members of the list, especially by those who can 
>  actually help you. So, your chance to receive help in this (and most 
>  others) mailing list is significantly reduced.
>  
I was wrong when I said ASCII DEL = 7. It's actually 0x7f (127). May be 
you are right in that historcially DEL is same as BS in *nix world. I 
don't know that. But thanks for replying.

Sorry, I am a stubborn person. I still want to use HTML. If you can show 
me that this list REQUIRES its list members use plain text, I will 
follow the rule.

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

May I make a suggestion? if you're using Thunderbird as your mail 
application, you can send both HTML and plain text messages, that way 
you most likely reach both groups of users... I personally like HTML 
mail too, but for many people this is not the case, since they may use 
plain text console mail readers. Just a suggestion, though (I know this 
may have some overhead on the list server... If that's the case, I'm 
sorry I suggested this).

>  Sorry, I am a stubborn person. I still want to use HTML. If you can 
>  show me that this list REQUIRES its list members use plain text, I 
>  will follow the rule.

[James Wilkinson]

Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  May I make a suggestion? if you're using Thunderbird as your mail
>
>  application, you can send both HTML and plain text messages, that way 
>  you most likely reach both groups of users... I personally like HTML 
>  mail too, but for many people this is not the case, since they may use 
>  plain text console mail readers. Just a suggestion, though (I know this 
>  may have some overhead on the list server... If that's the case, I'm 
>  sorry I suggested this). 
Actually, he is sending both versions.

I'm reading this in mutt: every one of his messages has been readable.

(I will leave the Gentle Reader to make up his or her own mind about the
desirability of this!)

James.

-- 
James Wilkinson       | They say that every cloud has a silver lining, which
Exeter    Devon    UK | must be a bit alarming for airline pilots...
E-mail address: james |     -- "I'm Sorry, I Haven't A Clue", BBC Radio
4
@westexe.demon.co.uk  |

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

James Wilkinson wrote:

> Actually, he is sending both versions.
>
> I'm reading this in mutt: every one of his messages has been readable.
>
> (I will leave the Gentle Reader to make up his or her own mind about the
> desirability of this!)
>
> James.
>  
I actually like (very much) the advance formatting you can do with HTML 
e-mail messages, so I tend to use it a lot, but I'm also aware that 
there's people that simply don't like it and are more than happy to use 
their good ol'e-mail reader in a VC simply because they still can do 
it... thus I send my messages as both: plain text and HTML.

[Jeff Vian]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 21:28 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  Pasha wrote: 
>  > Edward Yang wrote: 
>  > 
>  > > Pasha wrote: 
>  > > 
>  > > > Edward Yang wrote: 
>  > > > 
>  > > > > Pasha wrote: 
>  > > > > 
>  > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a
> few
>  > > > > > > > > bugs. For example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL
> to
>  > > > > > > > > ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it actualy
> acts
>  > > > > > > > > like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to
>  > > > > > > > > gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I
> attribute
>  > > > > > > > > the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable. 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > > Never had such problem with any version of linux i
>  > > > > > > > tried. Either stop tweaking options you don't
> understand
>  > > > > > > > or (again) it is an emulator that needs tweaking.
> BTW,
>  > > > > > > > in my terminal, backspace is configured to generate
>  > > > > > > > ASCII DEL, and del to escape sequence and I never
>  > > > > > > > changed this. So, you probably just configured del to
> be
>  > > > > > > > a backspace. 
>  > > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > 
>  > > > > > > What do you define the word 'bug' in software
> world? In my
>  > > > > > > dictionary, bug at least means one thing - it does not
>  > > > > > > work as it should to work. Your above comment is like
>  > > > > > > saying - that DEL option is the ears of a deaf, don't
> use
>  > > > > > > it! 
>  > > > > > 
>  > > > > > 
>  > > > > > 
>  > > > > > Where is the bug here? You configure DEL to be BACKSPACE and
>  > > > > > complain that it generates BACKSPACE. Change your setting to
>  > > > > > default and it will work as you expect it to work. This
>  > > > > > option is probably for compatibility with some terminals,
>  > > > > > where DEL works as backspace. If you don't want it to act
>  > > > > > that way, don't configure it so. 
>  > > > > > 
>  > > > > Can you read???????????????? I said: 
>  > > > > 
>  > > > > if I set DEL to ASCII DEL 
>  > > > 
>  > > > 
>  > > > First, there is no need to shout. 
>  > > > Second, please turn off HTML when you post to this list. In
>  > > > Thunderbird composition window, select Options/Format/Plain
>  > > > Text. 
>  > > > 
>  > > > If you look more closely, you can see that ASCII DEL is also
>  > > > generated by backspace. For me this means, that if I set Del to
>  > > > the same setting as backspace, it will act the same way as
>  > > > backspace. Also, you may be surprised, but originally ASCII DEL
>  > > > (and delete key) acted as backspace. I don't remember where it
>  > > > was changed, probably in MS-DOS. Anyway, there are a lot of
>  > > > hints telling that you should not touch that setting at all. In
>  > > > any case this is not a bug. 
>  > > > 
>  > > Okay, I like posting in HTML, which is not forbid by law; it's
>  > > only the usual custom to post in plain text, I choose not to
>  > > follow it. If you can't read it, please ignore me. 
>  > > 
>  > > ASCII DEL = ASCII 7 and ASCII BS = 8. 
>  > > 
>  > > Do you mean 7 == 8? 
>  > 
>  > 7 is ASCII BEL not DEL. This character produces a bell sound when
>  > printed. ASCII DEL is 8 and is synonim of ASCII BS. 
>  > 
>  > Concerning HTML: If you search this list you'll find plenty of
>  > explanations on why HTML is bad for posting on mailing lists. You
>  > will also find some other rules. The most important, however is a
>  > practical one: HTML postings are ignored (and in some cases
>  > automatically deleted) by many members of the list, especially by
>  > those who can actually help you. So, your chance to receive help in
>  > this (and most others) mailing list is significantly reduced. 
>  > 
>  I was wrong when I said ASCII DEL = 7. It's actually 0x7f (127). May
>  be you are right in that historcially DEL is same as BS in *nix world.
>  I don't know that. But thanks for replying.
>  
>  Sorry, I am a stubborn person. I still want to use HTML. If you can
>  show me that this list REQUIRES its list members use plain text, I
>  will follow the rule. 
You can be stubborn if you wish.  I have no desire to look at ugly html
tags in my text mail reader that I prefer.

You will NEVER get help from me if you continue to post bloated and ugly
html to a list that by concensus prefers text.

Kill filters work wonders for those annoyances.

>  -- 
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Paul]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 20:48 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  
>  ASCII DEL = ASCII 7 and ASCII BS = 8.
>  
>  Do you mean 7 == 8? 
Actually DEL == 127

7 == BEL (Bell)

OK

Paul

[James Wilkinson]

Edward Yang wrote:
>  Can you read???????????????? I said:
>  
>  if I set DEL to ASCII DEL 
ASCII dates back to the sixties. The current keyboard layout dates back
to the eighties.

The convention these days is that "delete" deletes the character to the
right of the cursor (or under the cursor, if you have a block cursor).
This took a *long* time to sort out: on many older terminals, "delete"
did the same thing as modern "backspace". There were also "erase" and
"rubout" keys to deal with, as terminal manufacturers attempted to
explain what on earth this key does to users with no experience of
computers.

And the ASCII code name has not been updated.

Gnome terminal is correctly set up out-of-the-box for Fedora. The switch
is there for people who use the program with other, older pieces of kit.
There is still a *lot* of that around.

The terminology is confusing. But it is the standard terminology. The
phrase "don't do that then" comes to mind.

James.
-- 
James Wilkinson       | They say the heat and the flies here can drive a man
Exeter    Devon    UK | insane. But you don't have to believe that, and nor
E-mail address: james | does that bright mauve elephant that just cycled
@westexe.demon.co.uk  | past.  -- Terry Pratchett, The Last Continent

[Jim Cornette]

- It is less capable than even late 1990's M$ when you are trying to 
setup dual-displays.
- Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
hardware any longer".
- Some programs have lower functionality than they had when they were 
first created.
- Disabling ICONs in the menus (mozilla) and not using the default icons 
that were provided from the projects. (confusing and too blue)

................

Now, why I like Fedora FC3:

- Most of my hardware is recognized and is reliable and functional.

- New ways to approach computing and keeping security a primary concern.

- and of course, because it is downloadable for free and not encumbered 
with proprietary software.

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
 
>  - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has
> this 
>  hardware any longer". 
Examples please ? We support some pretty arcane stuff, so if the driver
still builds fine, isn't a potential security disaster waiting to happen,
and doesn't impact overall maintainence of the kernel package, I'm
happy to reconsider any drivers if theres sufficient demand.
(And in some cases, I've enabled stuff on request from a single user
 as the driver made sense to enable).

		Dave

[Jim Cornette]

Dave Jones wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>   
>   > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
>   > hardware any longer".
>  
>  Examples please ? We support some pretty arcane stuff, so if the driver
>  still builds fine, isn't a potential security disaster waiting to happen,
>  and doesn't impact overall maintainence of the kernel package, I'm
>  happy to reconsider any drivers if theres sufficient demand.
>  (And in some cases, I've enabled stuff on request from a single user
>   as the driver made sense to enable).
>  
>  		Dave
>   
ISA ethernet versions and I did have a problem with pcnet_cs (I believe) 
not being configurable with the tools to setup networks.

I sold the laptop that needed the pcnet_cs PCMCIA card, so "I don't have 
  the computer any longer." I do still have two different PCMCIA NICs 
that I believe would no be easily configurable. The cards just stay in 
storage. The new computer had a built in NIC. It would be decent to be 
able to resurrect these cards.

I agree with the view that you expressed above.

Jim

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:15:50PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
 
>  > > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because
> "nobody has this 
>  > > hardware any longer".
>  >Examples please ?
>  ISA ethernet versions 
Ah yes, that got fixed a few updates back.

> and I did have a problem with pcnet_cs (I believe) 
>  not being configurable with the tools to setup networks. 
the driver should have been there since.. well, almost forever.
I don't have access to CVS prior to 09-Sep-04 handy right now, but
it's definitly been in FC3 since then.

I'd love for ISA crap to just go away forever, but every time
we make noises even suggesting it, we get comments from lots
of people about how useful it is for them to have them present
in the Fedora kernels. Maybe one day we can farm out all the
ancient junk to a kernel-oldjunk rpm in fedora-extras 8-)

		Dave

[Jim Cornette]

Dave Jones wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 09:15:50PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>   
>   > > > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
>   > > > hardware any longer".
>   > >Examples please ?
>   > ISA ethernet versions
>  
>  Ah yes, that got fixed a few updates back.
>  
>   >and I did have a problem with pcnet_cs (I believe) 
>   > not being configurable with the tools to setup networks.
>  
>  the driver should have been there since.. well, almost forever.
>  I don't have access to CVS prior to 09-Sep-04 handy right now, but
>  it's definitly been in FC3 since then.
>  
>  I'd love for ISA crap to just go away forever, but every time
>  we make noises even suggesting it, we get comments from lots
>  of people about how useful it is for them to have them present
>  in the Fedora kernels. Maybe one day we can farm out all the
>  ancient junk to a kernel-oldjunk rpm in fedora-extras 8-)
>  
>  		Dave
>   
The configuration of the cards that used pcnet_cs was the toughest part. 
I believe I had to load the module in /etc/rc.d/rc.local and was 
dependent on the pcmcia file that was before the permissions of the file 
were set from 755 to 644. I had to carry the file from release to 
release. The GUI tools were pretty useless to get the NICs configured.
  I might pull out the cards from storage and attempt to put them back 
in service again.

I like the proposed title for the rpm. Would this include ntfs support? 
I'm sure that some features needed for extreme legacy hardware would 
have to be put aside in such a scheme of a legacy kernel rpm. The kernel 
already outgrew the 1.44 floppy, we don't need it to be the size of a 
normal CD.

Jim

-- 
The so-called lessons of history are for the most part the rationalizations
of the victors.  History is written by the survivors.
		-- Max Lerner

[Gerald Thompson]

Jim Cornette wrote:

>  Dave Jones wrote:
>
> > I'd love for ISA crap to just go away forever, but every time
> > we make noises even suggesting it, we get comments from lots
> > of people about how useful it is for them to have them present
> > in the Fedora kernels. Maybe one day we can farm out all the
> > ancient junk to a kernel-oldjunk rpm in fedora-extras 8-)
> >
>  I like the proposed title for the rpm. Would this include ntfs 
>  support? I'm sure that some features needed for extreme legacy 
>  hardware would have to be put aside in such a scheme of a legacy 
>  kernel rpm. The kernel already outgrew the 1.44 floppy, we don't need 
>  it to be the size of a normal CD.
>
>  Jim
>  
I agree with Jim and Dave, I like the proposed title for the extras 
kernel for older hardware
kernel-oldjunk
kernel-oldjunk-ntfs

Gerald

[Craig White]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 18:33 -0500, Dave Jones wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>   
>   > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
>   > hardware any longer".
>  
>  Examples please ? We support some pretty arcane stuff, so if the driver
>  still builds fine, isn't a potential security disaster waiting to happen,
>  and doesn't impact overall maintainence of the kernel package, I'm
>  happy to reconsider any drivers if theres sufficient demand.
>  (And in some cases, I've enabled stuff on request from a single user
>   as the driver made sense to enable). 
----
adopt the RHEL paradigm - kernel-unsupported   ;-)

oops - it's all technically unsupported in Fedora

Craig

[Paul Howarth]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 18:33 -0500, Dave Jones wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>   
>   > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
>   > hardware any longer".
>  
>  Examples please ? We support some pretty arcane stuff, so if the driver
>  still builds fine, isn't a potential security disaster waiting to happen,
>  and doesn't impact overall maintainence of the kernel package, I'm
>  happy to reconsider any drivers if theres sufficient demand.
>  (And in some cases, I've enabled stuff on request from a single user
>   as the driver made sense to enable). 
How about the advansys driver? A number of people have asked about this
at various times:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=111232
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=112795
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=120446
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124018

I still use one of these cards myself and the driver is still part of
the mainline kernel, though not built by default. The driver code is at
least partly maintained though, because it changes between releases.
It's sufficiently important for me that I maintain a web page showing
how to use an Advansys SCSI card in Fedora Core (http://www.city-
fan.org/ftp/contrib/drivers/advansys/) and the feedback I get suggests
that I'm far from the only one still using them.

Paul.
-- 
Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org&gt;

[Dave Jones]

On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 08:18:39AM +0000, Paul Howarth wrote:

>  How about the advansys driver? A number of people have asked about
> this
>  at various times:
>  
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=111232
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=112795
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=120446
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124018 
current fedora-testing has it reenabled for x86.

>  I still use one of these cards myself and the driver is still part
> of
>  the mainline kernel, though not built by default. The driver code is at
>  least partly maintained though, because it changes between releases. 
it disappeared in Fedora because someone marked it as BROKEN upstream,
so when we rebased, it disappeared silently. We've got some smarts
in the build system to actually notice things like this disappearing
now, so hopefully we won't see this happening again in future.
(Or at least we'll have a heads-up on it in the worse case).

The BROKEN tag is only relevant on some architectures. As some have
noticed, it builds, and works just fine on x86.

>  It's sufficiently important for me that I maintain a web page
> showing
>  how to use an Advansys SCSI card in Fedora Core (http://www.city-
>  fan.org/ftp/contrib/drivers/advansys/) and the feedback I get suggests
>  that I'm far from the only one still using them. 
Maybe everyone else jumped on the -testing kernel 8-)

		Dave

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 28 January 2005 03:18, Paul Howarth wrote:
> On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 18:33 -0500, Dave Jones wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
> >  > - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has
> >  > this hardware any longer".
> >
> > Examples please ? We support some pretty arcane stuff, so if the
> > driver still builds fine, isn't a potential security disaster
> > waiting to happen, and doesn't impact overall maintainence of the
> > kernel package, I'm happy to reconsider any drivers if theres
> > sufficient demand. (And in some cases, I've enabled stuff on
> > request from a single user as the driver made sense to enable).
>
> How about the advansys driver? A number of people have asked about
>  this at various times:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=111232
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=112795
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=120446
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=124018
>
> I still use one of these cards myself and the driver is still part
>  of the mainline kernel, though not built by default. The driver
>  code is at least partly maintained though, because it changes
>  between releases. It's sufficiently important for me that I
>  maintain a web page showing how to use an Advansys SCSI card in
>  Fedora Core (http://www.city-
>  fan.org/ftp/contrib/drivers/advansys/) and the feedback I get
>  suggests that I'm far from the only one still using them.
>
> Paul. 
I'd probably be in at least one of those messages above.  There for a 
while it worked right well, but when the decided to undo the 
request_region fixes, it either went to hell, or 3 different tape 
drives did.

The card itself is a very well designed and built card, with far less 
than the normal amount of virgin sacrificing needed to get the 
terminations 100% functional.  For instance, a $0.75 schotkey diode 
is used in the hosts 5 volt isolation diode position, something all 
card makers should do, but don't, they use a 5 cent si type 
sacrificing half a volt of the precious 5 volts available for term 
power, so you wind up sacrificing virgins to get the terminations to 
work well enough to function in a lot of cases. 

But, they wouldn't support it for all the fixes and so called races 
they claimed it needed but were never able to show me an example of 
even though I did ask, for the 2.6 kernels, so its out of my machine, 
probably forever, and I'm now using a 200GB hard drive with amanda.

Its one of the better built scsi2-fast narrow cards ever to come down 
the pike, and dropping support was, and still is IMO, a huge mistake.  
They were looking at the code, and not the hardware.  The hardware is 
great.

> --
> Paul Howarth <paul(a)city-fan.org&gt; 
-- 
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.32% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Yahoo.com attorneys please note, additions to this message
by Gene Heskett are:
Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.

[Richard S. Crawford]

On Thursday 27 January 2005 3:31 pm, Jim Cornette flailed at a keyboard and 
produced this:
>  
>  - It is less capable than even late 1990's M$ when you are trying to 
>  setup dual-displays.
>  - Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
>  hardware any longer".
>  - Some programs have lower functionality than they had when they were 
>  first created.
>  - Disabling ICONs in the menus (mozilla) and not using the default icons 
>  that were provided from the projects. (confusing and too blue) 
I, personally, can't think of any reason why Fedora would suck for me.  It 
does all that I need it to do:  web browsing, e-mail, writing (very important 
for me), programming (mostly web development), music and DVD's.  I'm not much 
of a gamer, so that isn't important to me.

Every now and then, FC3 does something unusual and unexpected; this morning, 
for example, it stopped listening to my USB devices for no good reason that I 
could see, and wouldn't start listening again until I rebooted.  When these 
things happen, I repeat the mantra:  "Fedora Core 3 is bleeding edge, Fedora 
Core 3 is bleeding edge".  Even so, I still have fewer problems with FC3 than 
I do with my WinXP laptop.
 
One thing that does suck is that I can't make the SMP version of the 2.6 
kernel play with my dual-processor motherboard; I think, though, that this is 
a problem with the 2.6 kernel and my motherboard, not with FC3, since I had 
the same problem with SuSE.

 
>  Now, why I like Fedora FC3:
>  
>  - Most of my hardware is recognized and is reliable and functional.
>  
>  - New ways to approach computing and keeping security a primary concern.
>  
>  - and of course, because it is downloadable for free and not encumbered 
>  with proprietary software. 
I love FC3 because of the strong user community surrounding it.  Whenever I 
have a question I can post it here or to one of the other lists I belong to, 
and it will be answered.  Sometimes sarcastically, but always answered. ;-)  
Plus, I can customize it any way I like; I didn't like FC's implementation of 
KDE, so I grabbed KDE from the KDE-Redhat project, and I haven't looked back.  
Installing my DVD drive was a piece of cake.  Running FC3, my old dual-pro 
866 MHz PIII works slicker and smoother and more reliably than my 1.2GHz PIV 
laptop running WinXP.  There's almost nothing I can do in WinXP that I can't 
do in FC3.  The only reason I keep Windows around at this point is so I can 
install audio books from audible.com onto my Creative Zen Nomad+ MP3 player 
(yes, I do have GNomad installed on my FC3 box, but the Audible.com manager 
desktop application does not exist for Linux... yet).

I'm not a maniac about FC3; at home I also run an RH8 box and a Debian Woody 
laptop.  At work, I maintain a server running FC2, a couple of Solaris boxes, 
and an old SunBlade 100 running Gentoo.  My world is not all that narrow, 
though after only three years of playing with this stuff, I'm still a 
relative *nix newbie.


-- 
Slainte,
Richard S. Crawford (mailto: rscrawford(a)mossroot.com)
AIM: Buffalo2K / http://www.mossroot.com
"You can't depend on your judgment when your imagination is out of focus."
-Mark Twain
GPG Public Key located at: http://www.mossroot.com/rscrawford.asc

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

I wouldn't stick my hands into fire for this, but it could be the BIOS 
of the MoBo that's faulty, and maybe a flash is required. Other than 
that, I find it very strange that the kernel won't pick up the other 
processor.

>  
> One thing that does suck is that I can't make the SMP version of the 2.6 
> kernel play with my dual-processor motherboard; I think, though, that this is 
> a problem with the 2.6 kernel and my motherboard, not with FC3, since I had 
> the same problem with SuSE.
>   
>

[Jim Cornette]

Richard S. Crawford wrote:
>  On Thursday 27 January 2005 3:31 pm, Jim Cornette flailed at a
> keyboard and 
>  produced this:
>  
> >- It is less capable than even late 1990's M$ when you are trying to 
> >setup dual-displays.
> >- Some drivers are intentionally deleted because "nobody has this 
> >hardware any longer".
> >- Some programs have lower functionality than they had when they were 
> >first created.
> >- Disabling ICONs in the menus (mozilla) and not using the default icons 
> >that were provided from the projects. (confusing and too blue)
>  
>  
>  I, personally, can't think of any reason why Fedora would suck for me.  It 
>  does all that I need it to do:  web browsing, e-mail, writing (very important 
>  for me), programming (mostly web development), music and DVD's.  I'm not much 
>  of a gamer, so that isn't important to me. 
Following the development of RHL 10 (Switched to FC1 in process) and 
using RHL since version 4.2 (5.2 and beyond on a regular basis). I am 
impressed overall with Fedora and the RHL versions that it transitioned 
from. I have become more impressed with Fedora and Linux in general. But 
looking back at other OSes and the problems and features that were 
available in earlier days and what is not yet reliable in Linux does 
give you some reason to wonder if Linux will ever catch up, since they 
are so far back on getting out of the gate. Dual-display is one of the 
areas where I see a 6 yr gap in Linux. (xorg-x11, maybe xfree86 also) 
getting at a stage where it should be today.
I would expect one video driver and another video driver to be able to 
correctly allocate memory regions for each card, without overlapping the 
other video cards space.
I'm not sure if picking memory regions for the limited video drivers 
supplied with xorg-x11 that work, but do not overlap with each other 
would be  good practice. Or to have the server dynamically figure out 
what memory regions to assign the cards through the internal modules 
within xorg-x11 would be a better way to approach the problem.
My thnking is that the drivers ought to be made to not overlap the same 
memory regions as much as possible, then get feedback from any 
overlapping memory allocations that are stated in Xorg.0.log and 
adjusting xorg.conf to allocate the correct regions for each card for 
the next time that the X server is started.
My main concern is that my Intel 815 card is limited in resolution when 
an ati or radeon PCI card is added to the mix. With no card present, I 
can get the desired resolution.
With both cards present, I cannot get full resolution and the memory 
allocation of the cards is overlapping. I refer to gdm starting from 
videocard1 and then the first active display is videocard0. Then moving 
the mouse around eventually leads to an X server lockup and most 
probably the whole computer locks up.
I was surprised that someone running three video cards also sees a 
similar problem, but was able to get the proper results with FC1 w/ 
xfree86. Dual-display seems seriously broken now. I'm not sure if it was 
breakage or there were always problems with this feature.

>  
>  Every now and then, FC3 does something unusual and unexpected; this morning, 
>  for example, it stopped listening to my USB devices for no good reason that I 
>  could see, and wouldn't start listening again until I rebooted.  When these 
>  things happen, I repeat the mantra:  "Fedora Core 3 is bleeding edge, Fedora 
>  Core 3 is bleeding edge".  Even so, I still have fewer problems with FC3 than 
>  I do with my WinXP laptop. 
I avoid XP as much as possible. I am not much for having to always be on 
gaurd for spyware, virus and intrusion detection software. These 
protections should be part of the OS and are enough of a distraction to 
keeps away from using it if not needed for some special purpose that is 
not yet possible while using a Linux distribution.

>   
>  One thing that does suck is that I can't make the SMP version of the 2.6 
>  kernel play with my dual-processor motherboard; I think, though, that this is 
>  a problem with the 2.6 kernel and my motherboard, not with FC3, since I had 
>  the same problem with SuSE.
>   
I have not experienced dual-processors, but the smp kernel works fine on 
a multithreaded Processor that I use. In fact, this model desktop works 
great and has no hardware problems that I have noticed lately. It did 
have an X problem that was triggered by certain screensavers and caused 
X to completely crash, but leave residual infomation in the cards 
allocated memory (stuff on display before X crashed were present until 
the computer was rebooted). The problem was resolved mysterously with 
improvements in xorg-x11. These same improvements seemed to negatively 
effect another desktop that used earlier versions of similar video 
cards. Both the older and newer video cards seem to be unbroken now.

>   
>  
> >Now, why I like Fedora FC3:
> >
> >- Most of my hardware is recognized and is reliable and functional.
> >
> >- New ways to approach computing and keeping security a primary concern.
> >
> >- and of course, because it is downloadable for free and not encumbered 
> >with proprietary software.
>  
>  
>  I love FC3 because of the strong user community surrounding it.  Whenever I 
>  have a question I can post it here or to one of the other lists I belong to, 
>  and it will be answered.  Sometimes sarcastically, but always answered. ;-)  
>  Plus, I can customize it any way I like; I didn't like FC's implementation of 
>  KDE, so I grabbed KDE from the KDE-Redhat project, and I haven't looked back.  
>  Installing my DVD drive was a piece of cake.  Running FC3, my old dual-pro 
>  866 MHz PIII works slicker and smoother and more reliably than my 1.2GHz PIV 
>  laptop running WinXP.  There's almost nothing I can do in WinXP that I can't 
>  do in FC3.  The only reason I keep Windows around at this point is so I can 
>  install audio books from audible.com onto my Creative Zen Nomad+ MP3 player 
>  (yes, I do have GNomad installed on my FC3 box, but the Audible.com manager 
>  desktop application does not exist for Linux... yet). 
The Nomad player that I also own one is my only reason to use windows. 
It would be great if there was a linux OS that you could load on it and 
  do away with the need for windows entirely. (was 20 gig, but is now 40 
gig, changed disk and reloaded os)

>  
>  I'm not a maniac about FC3; at home I also run an RH8 box and a Debian Woody 
>  laptop.  At work, I maintain a server running FC2, a couple of Solaris boxes, 
>  and an old SunBlade 100 running Gentoo.  My world is not all that narrow, 
>  though after only three years of playing with this stuff, I'm still a 
>  relative *nix newbie. 
A good mixture of distros and hardware to become familiar with. I 
started playing with Minux, then later Linux (Slackware, then RHL 4.2) 
to become familiar with the  Unix (Sun) operating system. I never 
touched a sun computer yet though.

Jim

>  
>  
>   

-- 
Theory of Selective Supervision:
	The one time in the day that you lean back and relax is
	the one time the boss walks through the office.

[Aly Dharshi]

>  A good mixture of distros and hardware to become familiar with. I 
>  started playing with Minux, then later Linux (Slackware, then RHL 4.2) 
>  to become familiar with the  Unix (Sun) operating system. I never 
>  touched a sun computer yet though. 
See http://www.opensolaris.org, you don't really need a sun box to run Solaris 
any more.

-- 
Aly Dharshi
aly.dharshi(a)telus.net

	"Amor est vitae essentia = Love is the essence of life"

[Bill Rugolsky Jr.]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>  
>  - It is less capable than even late 1990's M$ when you are trying to 
>  setup dual-displays. 
HAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, you mean like having dialog boxes straddle the two monitors
on Windows?  We've got Windows software released this millenium that
still gets this wrong.  [Yeah, I know that the same problem existed
with Xinerama and many -- but not all -- X window managers until
recently.]  But I've been running with two *independent* (non-Xinerama)
screens for a decade. Each screen has numerous virtual pages that are
independently switchable.  We are able to see M*N combinations of virtual
pages side-by-side, where M and N around here are anywhere from 4-32.
This is invaluable to someone who has to run multiple trading systems,
program, read mail, browse the web, etc.  Tell me again how that works
on Windows?  ;-p

	Bill Rugolsky

[Jim Cornette]

Bill Rugolsky Jr. wrote:
>  On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 06:31:04PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>  
> >- It is less capable than even late 1990's M$ when you are trying to 
> >setup dual-displays.
>  
>  
>  HAHAHAHAHA!
>  
>  Oh, you mean like having dialog boxes straddle the two monitors
>  on Windows?  We've got Windows software released this millenium that
>  still gets this wrong.  
I can set display 1 at one resolution and display to another resolution 
and they both work. Now for the problem with programs slopping the wrong 
information on each screen is different. Most windows programs that I 
have seen were not impressive to me, dual-display or single-display.

  [Yeah, I know that the same problem existed
>  with Xinerama and many -- but not all -- X window managers until
>  recently.]  But I've been running with two *independent* (non-Xinerama)
>  screens for a decade. Each screen has numerous virtual pages that are
>  independently switchable.  We are able to see M*N combinations of virtual
>  pages side-by-side, where M and N around here are anywhere from 4-32.
>  This is invaluable to someone who has to run multiple trading systems,
>  program, read mail, browse the web, etc.  Tell me again how that works
>  on Windows?  ;-p 
The programs suck. Configuring the displays to work was pretty easy 
though. Did you have to manually edit your configuration files to get 
things setup or were you able to use some easy to run tool?

In windows, the second display presents a text message on screen that 
tells you where to go to configure the second monitor. You follow the 
text directions on the second display and you are all set to go.

I'm impressed that you can use dual-displays for a decade now. It would 
be better for this feature to be easier to configure and work for more 
cases than only for special configuration of the files or customized 
programs.

It doesn't work for me today on Fedora, but it does on ME. Why there is 
a difference is just a curiousity and a disappointment to me.

Jim

>  
>  	Bill Rugolsky
>   

-- 
Theory of Selective Supervision:
	The one time in the day that you lean back and relax is
	the one time the boss walks through the office.

[Bill Rugolsky Jr.]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 10:38:34PM -0500, Jim Cornette wrote:
>  The programs suck. Configuring the displays to work was pretty easy 
>  though. Did you have to manually edit your configuration files to get 
>  things setup or were you able to use some easy to run tool?
>  
>  In windows, the second display presents a text message on screen that 
>  tells you where to go to configure the second monitor. You follow the 
>  text directions on the second display and you are all set to go. 
I agree, configuring X via a GUI to take advantage of anything more than
the most vanilla configuration is a recent development.  One should
understand, however, that the priority over these many years has been
to make X even work on hardware that is often not well documented, etc.

>  I'm impressed that you can use dual-displays for a decade now. It
> would
>  be better for this feature to be easier to configure and work for more
>  cases than only for special configuration of the files or customized
>  programs. 
*XFree86* hasn't supported multiple displays that long, but *some* X
server has, either on Sun equipment, or the Xi Graphics product for i386
(which I used on Linux and Solaris long ago).  Multiple screen support was
a  fundamental design element of X -- that's why your $DISPLAY variable is 
:<xserver>.<screen#>.  On Windows, AFAIK, one still just gets a single
simulated large display.

In the past, multi-head was achieved with multiple video adapters --
[and those adapters, e.g., Matrox, had to have a special feature to
turn off the VGA hw registers on all but the first card].  These days,
commodity cards support dual-head, though often with various limitations
(like lower RAMDAC speed on the second head), special setup requirements
that are not (well-)documented by the vendors, etc.  One still needs
special Option lines in the device config to correctly select analog,
flat-panel, TV-Out, etc. on various cards.

And auto-configuration depends on auto-detection, which involves things
like DDC probing, matching to a database of hardware quirks and monitor
types, determining which bit-depths can be supported on each card/screen,
etc.

Remember, for the most part, X drivers have been developed by third-parties,
not the hardware vendors themselves, who supply the Windows drivers that
take full advantage of their product.

	Bill Rugolsky

[Vinicius]

Edward Yang escreveu:
>  After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand
> why 
>  the post aroused so much agitation.
>  
>  1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* sucks'.
>
>  But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3 
>  sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.
>  
>  2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the 
>  hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so 
>  they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name 
>  calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, 
>  please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a 
>  small part of it.
>  
>  Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. 
>  Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
>  
>  1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
>  bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
>  
>  2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error 
>  messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its 
>  failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
>   
"Product Specifications

The Virtual PC application requires a 400 MHz Pentium-compatible 
processor (1 GHz is recommended), and requires approximately 20 MB of 
disk space. It runs on Windows XP Professional and Windows 2000 
Professional. ". These are the hosts.

And these are the guests: "MS-DOS 6.22; Windows 95; Windows 98; Windows 
Me;  Windows 2000; Windows NT 4.0;  Windows XP; and OS/2**"

See http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/evaluation/overview2004.mspx

I suppose GNU\Linux is not supported by Virtual PC, but VMWare does 
supports GNU\Linux.


>  3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can
>
>  boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
>  
>  4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
>  memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
>  memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
>  almost unbearable.
>  
>  5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, 
>  in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it 
>  actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but 
>  since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's 
>  quite reasonable.
>  
>  6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up 
>  time is longer than FC1.
>  
>  7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet 
>  it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000 
>  installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. 
>  I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or 
>  even worse.
>  
>  8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
>  
>  Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
>  Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.
>  
>  Thanks.
>

[Vinicius]

Vinicius escreveu:
>  Edward Yang escreveu:
>  
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
> > why the post aroused so much agitation.
> >
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
> > sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
> > sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
> > experience.
> >
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
> > the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and 
> > so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name 
> > calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. 
> > But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I 
> > mean a small part of it.
> >
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. 
> > Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
> > bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> >
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
> > error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
> > caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> >
>  
>  "Product Specifications
>  
>  The Virtual PC application requires a 400 MHz Pentium-compatible 
>  processor (1 GHz is recommended), and requires approximately 20 MB of 
>  disk space. It runs on Windows XP Professional and Windows 2000 
>  Professional. ". These are the hosts.
>  
>  And these are the guests: "MS-DOS 6.22; Windows 95; Windows 98; Windows 
>  Me;  Windows 2000; Windows NT 4.0;  Windows XP; and OS/2**"
>  
>  See http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/evaluation/overview2004.mspx
>  
>  I suppose GNU\Linux is not supported by Virtual PC, but VMWare does 
>  supports GNU\Linux.
>  
>   
But the KB has another things to say:
Cannot Install a Red Hat Linux 6.2 Guest PC in Virtual PC: 
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;824668
How to Install a Linux Virtual PC: 
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;824513
X-Windows Display Is Corrupted or Does Not Appear When You Install Linux 
as a Guest Operating System: 
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;825379

> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally
> can 
> > boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
> > memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
> > memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
> > almost unbearable.
> >
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, 
> > in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, 
> > it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to 
> > gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to 
> > FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
> > up time is longer than FC1.
> >
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
> > Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
> > 2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
> > selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
> > better or even worse.
> >
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
> > Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves 
> > here.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

[Edward Yang]

Vinicius wrote:

>  Vinicius escreveu:
>
> > Edward Yang escreveu:
> >
> >> After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
> >> why the post aroused so much agitation.
> >>
> >> 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
> >> sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
> >> sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
> >> experience.
> >>
> >> 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
> >> the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, 
> >> and so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* 
> >> at name calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux 
> >> communitiy. But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux 
> >> community is bad, I mean a small part of it.
> >>
> >> Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than 
> >> FC1. Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >>
> >> 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not 
> >> any bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> >>
> >> 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
> >> error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
> >> caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> >> http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> >> http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> >>
> >
> > "Product Specifications
> >
> > The Virtual PC application requires a 400 MHz Pentium-compatible 
> > processor (1 GHz is recommended), and requires approximately 20 MB of 
> > disk space. It runs on Windows XP Professional and Windows 2000 
> > Professional. ". These are the hosts.
> >
> > And these are the guests: "MS-DOS 6.22; Windows 95; Windows 98; 
> > Windows Me;  Windows 2000; Windows NT 4.0;  Windows XP; and OS/2**"
> >
> > See 
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/evaluation/overview2004.mspx
> >
> > I suppose GNU\Linux is not supported by Virtual PC, but VMWare does 
> > supports GNU\Linux.
> >
> >
>
>  But the KB has another things to say:
>  Cannot Install a Red Hat Linux 6.2 Guest PC in Virtual PC: 
>  http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;824668
>  How to Install a Linux Virtual PC: 
>  http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;824513
>  X-Windows Display Is Corrupted or Does Not Appear When You Install 
>  Linux as a Guest Operating System: 
>  http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;825379
>  
I did not install RH 6.2. I installed FC1/FC3.

> >> 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I
> finally 
> >> can boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >>
> >> 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
> >> memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
> >> memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time 
> >> is almost unbearable.
> >>
> >> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> >> example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile 
> >> settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific 
> >> only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the 
> >> problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >>
> >> 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
> >> up time is longer than FC1.
> >>
> >> 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
> >> Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
> >> 2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
> >> selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
> >> better or even worse.
> >>
> >> 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >>
> >> Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and 
> >> Open Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new 
> >> waves here.
> >>
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >
>

[Edward Yang]

Vinicius wrote:

>  Edward Yang escreveu:
>
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
> > why the post aroused so much agitation.
> >
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
> > sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
> > sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
> > experience.
> >
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
> > the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, 
> > and so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at 
> > name calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux 
> > communitiy. But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux 
> > community is bad, I mean a small part of it.
> >
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than 
> > FC1. Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not 
> > any bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> >
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
> > error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
> > caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> >
>
>  "Product Specifications
>
>  The Virtual PC application requires a 400 MHz Pentium-compatible 
>  processor (1 GHz is recommended), and requires approximately 20 MB of 
>  disk space. It runs on Windows XP Professional and Windows 2000 
>  Professional. ". These are the hosts.
>
>  And these are the guests: "MS-DOS 6.22; Windows 95; Windows 98; 
>  Windows Me;  Windows 2000; Windows NT 4.0;  Windows XP; and OS/2**"
>
>  See 
>  http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/evaluation/overview2004.mspx
>
>  I suppose GNU\Linux is not supported by Virtual PC, but VMWare does 
>  supports GNU\Linux.
>
>  
Haha, you believe what Microsoft says?

Microsoft or m$ bought Virtual PC from Connectix, which had very good 
support for Linux. What m$ di is remove Linux or even Unix from the 
supported list and added a few buggy features and pack it and sell it as 
Microsofot Virtual PC 2004!  If you use Virtual PC you can find an 
'Other...' option when you create a VM. That 'Other...' is for Linux! I 
don't think m$ took time to remove the already working code for 
supporting Linux.

> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally
> can 
> > boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
> > memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
> > memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time 
> > is almost unbearable.
> >
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For 
> > example, in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile 
> > settings, it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific 
> > only to gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the 
> > problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
> > up time is longer than FC1.
> >
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
> > Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
> > 2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
> > selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
> > better or even worse.
> >
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and 
> > Open Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new 
> > waves here.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>

[Don Dupy]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Vinicius wrote:

>  Edward Yang escreveu:
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why the 
> > post aroused so much agitation.
> > 
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux*
> sucks'. 
> > But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3 
> > sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.
> > 
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the 
> > hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so they 
> > seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name calling. 
> > That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, please note 
> > I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a small part of 
> > it.
> > 
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. Note 
> > that I did not have experience with FC2.
> > 
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
> > bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> > 
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error 
> > messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its 
> > failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> > http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> > 
>
>  "Product Specifications
>
>  The Virtual PC application requires a 400 MHz Pentium-compatible processor (1 
>  GHz is recommended), and requires approximately 20 MB of disk space. It runs 
>  on Windows XP Professional and Windows 2000 Professional. ". These are the 
>  hosts.
>
>  And these are the guests: "MS-DOS 6.22; Windows 95; Windows 98; Windows Me; 
>  Windows 2000; Windows NT 4.0;  Windows XP; and OS/2**"
>
>  See http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/evaluation/overview2004.mspx
>
>  I suppose GNU\Linux is not supported by Virtual PC, but VMWare does supports 
>  GNU\Linux.
>
>
> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can boot 
> > into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> > 
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb memory 
> > and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb memory, but it 
> > is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is almost unbearable.
> > 
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, in 
> > gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it 
> > actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but 
> > since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite 
> > reasonable.
> > 
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up 
> > time is longer than FC1.
> > 
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet it 
> > takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000 
> > installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. I 
> > forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or even 
> > worse.
> > 
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> > 
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
> > Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
>
>  
I must be an oddball..........
I think the first thing a person needs is decent hardware to run this 
stuff like it was intended.

My laptop is a Sony Vaio PCG-V505BL with a 2.4GHZ P4M, and 1GIG of ram.
Fedora Core 3 installed easily and painlessly. I am also running VMWare 
with an install of Win2K. again, working perfectly. I have never seen a 
Linux distro so easy to get up and running. I run everything I want to run 
on it, with little or no problems installing or configuring. I am maybe 
just a little better than a beginner at this. I don't really consider 
myself a novice.

I am running Fedora Core 1 on a Dell Poweredge 600SC. No problems. NONE
It is a 1.8 Celeron with 256MB RAM. FC1 installed quickly and painlessly 
here as well. It is my server. Does mail, DNS, apache, DHCP, MRTG, Big 
Brother, blah blah blah....... all with little or no trouble installing or 
configuring.

FC3 is the bomb. I love it, and will not use anything else.
What problems I have had, I either did my homework or asked a ? here. I 
always have gotten an answer to my problems here. This is better that M$ 
could ever offer.

There's my .02 take it or leave it...........
  -- 
Don Dupy

FC1 - Kernel 2.4.22 - Dell Poweredge 600SC
http://www.maxxrad.net
email: fedora(a)maxxrad.net

[Pete Savage]

I've found out many times that if you try to install/upgrade/run systems in 
a non standard manner, you can often come up against problems, while I have 
spent many an evening banging my head against a wall, I still have to think 
at the end of the day, the coders made it work a cetain way, I've tried to 
change it, so the blame falls on me ;p
Sorry just my 2 cents, I love fedora, and I have tried most distros, fedora 
is my personal favorite, runs fast, smoothly and has all the functions I 
need.
Pete

> From: Edward Yang <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt;
> Reply-To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
> To: For users of Fedora Core releases <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
> Subject: Why I think FC3 sucks!
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:59:25 +0800
> MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
> After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why the 
> post aroused so much agitation.
>
> 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* sucks'. 
> But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3 
> sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.
>
> 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the 
> hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so they 
> seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name calling. 
> That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, please note 
> I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a small part of 
> it.
>
> Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. Note 
> that I did not have experience with FC2.
>
> 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
> bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
>
> 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error 
> messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its 
> failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
> http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
> http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
>
> 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can boot 
> into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
>
> 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb memory 
> and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb memory, but it 
> is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is almost unbearable.
>
> 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, in 
> gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it 
> actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but 
> since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite 
> reasonable.
>
> 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up 
> time is longer than FC1.
>
> 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet it 
> takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000 
> installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. I 
> forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or even 
> worse.
>
> 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
>
> Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
> Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> fedora-list mailing list
> fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> To unsubscribe: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Edward Yang]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand 
>  why the post aroused so much agitation.
>
>  1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux* 
>  sucks'. But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 
>  sucks or FC3 sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal 
>  experience.
>
>  2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what 
>  the hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and 
>  so they seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name 
>  calling. That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. 
>  But, please note I am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I 
>  mean a small part of it.
>
>  Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. 
>  Note that I did not have experience with FC2.
>
>  1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any 
>  bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
>
>  2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of 
>  error messages complaining something that actually should not have 
>  caused its failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page 
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
>
>  3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can 
>  boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
>
>  4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
>  memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
>  memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
>  almost unbearable.
>
>  5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, 
>  in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, 
>  it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to 
>  gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to 
>  FC3. It's quite reasonable.
>
>  6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
>  up time is longer than FC1.
>
>  7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
>  Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
>  2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
>  selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
>  better or even worse.
>
>  8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
>
>  Final words - I am not negating Linux. Actually I think Linux and Open 
>  Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves 
>  here.
>
>  Thanks.
>  
Here is number 8!

I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb 
memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is 
making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating 
memory size...

And number 9:
Though I have screen saver disabled, but I still get xscreensaver in my 
session. :-(

[Rahul Sundaram]

Hi
>   
>   I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
>  memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is
>  making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating
>  memory size... 

fedora does not ship borland c++. if borland generated bloated code on
fedora, how is that a fedora problem?


>   
>   And number 9:
>   Though I have screen saver disabled, but I still get xscreensaver in my
>  session. :-(
>    
not here
-- 
Regards,
Rahul Sundaram

[Edward Yang]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Hi
>   
>
> > 
> > I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
> >memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is
> >making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating
> >memory size...
> >    
> >
>
>
> fedora does not ship borland c++. if borland generated bloated code on
> fedora, how is that a fedora problem?
>
>
>   
>  
It's C++BuilderX, which uses Java to drive its graphical IDE. It's the 
Java thing that takes up more than 400mb memory.

Can anyone have C++BuilderX installed on FC3 confirm that they also have 
the same result?

> > 
> > And number 9:
> > Though I have screen saver disabled, but I still get xscreensaver in my
> >session. :-(
> > 
> >    
> >
>
> not here
>   
>

[Tarjei Knapstad]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 14:14, Edward Yang wrote:
>  Rahul Sundaram wrote: 
>  > Hi
>  >   
>  > >   I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
>  > > memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is
>  > > making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating
>  > > memory size...
>  > >     
>  > 
>  > fedora does not ship borland c++. if borland generated bloated code on
>  > fedora, how is that a fedora problem?
>  > 
>  > 
>  >   
>  It's C++BuilderX, which uses Java to drive its graphical IDE. It's the
>  Java thing that takes up more than 400mb memory.
>   
OK, go whine to the people at Sun then. The Java RE is not part of FC3
either.

- "Does not work under Virtual PC" - no one said it will, and if it
doesn't it's the Virtual PC guys fault.

- "Borland Builder/Java is a resource hog" - complain to Borland and or
Sun.

- "Unbearably slow on my old 128MB box" - sorry, software upgrades and
hardware upgrades go hand in hand. If you feel that's bad, complain
upstream to the developers working on KDE/Gnome/Other components for all
the new functionality they added since the last release.

Summary: you're barking up the wrong tree.

--
Tarjei

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>
> >Hi
> >  
> >
> >> 
> >> I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
> >>memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is
> >>making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating
> >>memory size...
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >fedora does not ship borland c++. if borland generated bloated code on
> >fedora, how is that a fedora problem?
> >
> >
> >  
> >
>  It's C++BuilderX, which uses Java to drive its graphical IDE. It's the 
>  Java thing that takes up more than 400mb memory.
>
>  Can anyone have C++BuilderX installed on FC3 confirm that they also 
>  have the same result?
>  
The JavaVM for Linux is less than perfect and in fact pretty much (in 
your terms) suck when compared to the Windows counterpart... Using Java 
programs in Linux is too expensive (in my experience) in terms of memory 
and CPU resources... My suggestion... Don't use them. Or if you must, 
you know what are the trade offs of using them.

[Temlakos]

Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>  Hi
>  
> > 
> > I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
> >memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is
> >making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating
> >memory size...
>  
>  
>  
>  fedora does not ship borland c++. if borland generated bloated code on
>  fedora, how is that a fedora problem? 
Agreed. Fedora ships with the Gnu C/C++ compiler and as complete a 
linker as you'd want--and if you want an IDE, check out "anjuta."

That's my general approach to finding application support: looking for 
equivalent Linux applications and acquiring a package that does 
everything my old Windows apps used to do.

Temlakos

[James Wilkinson]

Edward Yang wrote:
>  I just found out that on FC3 Borland C++Builder takes more than 400mb
>
>  memory! While on Windows, it only takes a little more than 60mb.This is 
>  making me believe that System Monitor is having a bug about calculating 
>  memory size... 
Please note that on modern operating systems with shared objects and
virtual memory (this includes Windows), the concept of "memory used" is
not easy to define.

It sounds as though you're getting a "total virtual memory used" figure.
This includes physical memory, anything in the swap file, program code,
shared memories, anything memory mapped from disk (e.g. a lot of program
data), and pages that have yet to be used, may never be used, and don't
actually take up any memory anywhere. Windows does not necessarily
include all of this (I don't believe it includes memory mapped files,
for example. This may or may not be the Right Thing To Do).

James.

-- 
James Wilkinson       | ... including, but not limited to, windstorms, the
Exeter    Devon    UK | Riders of Nazgul, infuriated chickens, peasant
E-mail address: james | uprisings, halitosis, artillery bombardment, cave-ins,
@westexe.demon.co.uk  | explosions, and/or frogs falling from the sky.

[Pedro Fernandes Macedo]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can
>
>  boot into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
>
>  4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb 
>  memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
>  memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
>  almost unbearable.
>  
Do a test.. Get the source from kernel.org and recompile it , using the 
same config file used by redhat... You'll notice that it is just slow as 
the default kernel... This is related to some kernel changes made in the 
kernel that , in tools like virtual pc and vmware , result in running 
slower... In normal hardware  , it works at least as fast as (but 
usually faster than) kernel 2.4....

>  5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For
> example, 
>  in gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, 
>  it actualy acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to 
>  gnome, but since it's bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to 
>  FC3. It's quite reasonable. 
It's not reasonable. If the bug is in Gnome , it's a gnome bug , not a 
FC3 bug. Unless you find a item in the Changelog or a patch in the 
src.rpm added by redhat that caused the problem , it's an upstream bug 
that should be reported to Gnome.. Btw , did you made a bug report about 
it ???

>  6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot 
>  up time is longer than FC1. 
Maybe.. FC1 didnt have selinux , didnt have NFS4 and a few other 
things.... You know that you can (and should) disable unnecessary 
services ? This have two effects: improved security and a little 
improvement in boot time.

>  7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. 
>  Yet it takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 
>  2000 installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components 
>  selected. I forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing 
>  better or even worse. 
Let's not compare windows and linux , ok?
Do a rpm -qa and you'll see that you get a lot of other stuff... If you 
installed a single KDE app , you end up having to install several libs 
from KDE... Also , if you have openoffice , you'll notice that the i18n 
package is a little too big (it's meant to be split up for FC4)...  
(btw, if you dont remmember how much space FC1 used , how can you 
compare it?)

--
Pedro Macedo

[David Cary Hart]

On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 17:59 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand
>  why the post aroused so much agitation.
>   
1. Request a refund.
2. Remove it from your system.
3. Don't post in HTML
4. Legitimate problems should result in bugzilla entries.
5. Differentiate between a distribution and packages.

________________________________________________________________________
Total Quality Management - A Commitment to Excellence
http://www.TQMcube.com

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:59:25 +0800, Edward Yang
<neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand
> why the
>  post aroused so much agitation. 
Um, because you're being an asshole, maybe?

>   1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as
> '*Linux* sucks'.
>  But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3
>  sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience. 
No, you ignoramus - if I showed up in your neighborhood and started
yelling publicly that you and your neighbors and all the work they do
sucks, would you react kindly?  I thknk not.

>   2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what
> the
>  hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so they
>  seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name calling.
>  That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, please note I
>  am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a small part of it. 
You are such an idiot.  A quick Google search finds just as many
instances of the word "troll" in Windows newsgroups as Linux ones.

>   Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than
> FC1. Note
>  that I did not have experience with FC2. 
Seriously, just stop.  No one on the list is taking you seriously. 
You're an idiot, and an asshole.  Go away.

>   1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not
> any
>  bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult. 
Yeah, I guess it is if you are ignorant of the way the OS works and
too lazy to learn.  If I didn't take the time to learn about how
Windows worked, I would expect it to be counterintuitive, too.

>   2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of
> error
>  messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its
>  failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page
>  http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html. 
So what you are saying is that you didn't investigate how to run FC3
in VirtualPC.  How is that the fault of the distribution?  Sounds like
a failure on your part to perform due dilligence.

>   3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally
> can boot
>  into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3. 
So you have a weird environment and you didn't research it.  Your
stupidity, not the distribution's.

>   4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb
> memory
>  and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb memory, but it is
>  visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is almost unbearable. 
Hey, dumbass, the 90's called, they want their computers back.  As we
can afford more powerful computers for less money, code will gain more
features and therefore require more resources.  That's not a bad
thing, you moron.  It's up to YOU to decide what features you want and
remove or deactivate the rest.

>   5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For
> example, in
>  gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it actualy
>  acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but since it's
>  bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable. 
No, it's quite stupid.  That bug has been documented and discussed ad
nauseum.  Your being too stupid or lazy to find out about it doesn't
mean that the distro is bad.  And if you don't understand that FC is a
bleeding edge distro and is EXPECTED to uncover bugs and problems,
then you need to go read the very first paragraph at
http://fedora.redhat.com.  YOU need to do some work instead of coming
in here and blaming your ignorance and stupidity on the distro.

>   6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot
> up
>  time is longer than FC1. 
If you don't have accurate data, then you're talking out of your ass. 
Shut up.  Oh, and see my response to #4 again.

>   7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE.
> Yet it
>  takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000
>  installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. I
>  forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or even
>  worse. 
You stupid, stupid shit.  You're comparing apples to oranges.  If
Windows 2000 is so much better, hey, don't let the door hit you in the
ass on the way out, OK?

>   8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks'
> topic. 
I can think of pages and pages of stuff to add to an "Edward Yang Sucks"
thread.

>   Final words - I am not negating Linux.  
Yes, you are.  You're spewing half-truths and statements of ignorance
intended to be insulting and derogatory.

>  Actually I think Linux and Open
>  Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here. 
You wanna play in this arena, then learn how to play nice.

>   Thanks. 
Any time.

LW

[Robert P. J. Day]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Thomas Cameron wrote:

>  On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:59:25 +0800, Edward Yang
>  <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>  >  After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why the
>  > post aroused so much agitation.
>
>  Um, because you're being an asshole, maybe? 
hey!  no name calling!  that's *my* job. :-P

rday

[Jeff Henager]

Funny as hell.
Someone that is trying to emulate something inside of Winders, and has a 
problem. Whoa! Red Alert!!!


linux.whiz(a)gmail.com wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:59:25 +0800, Edward Yang
> <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why the
> >post aroused so much agitation.
> >    
> >
>
> Um, because you're being an asshole, maybe?
>
>   
>
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux*
> sucks'.
> >But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3
> >sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.
> >    
> >
>
> No, you ignoramus - if I showed up in your neighborhood and started
> yelling publicly that you and your neighbors and all the work they do
> sucks, would you react kindly?  I thknk not.
>
>   
>
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the
> >hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so they
> >seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name calling.
> >That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, please note I
> >am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a small part of it.
> >    
> >
>
> You are such an idiot.  A quick Google search finds just as many
> instances of the word "troll" in Windows newsgroups as Linux ones.
>
>   
>
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. Note
> >that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >    
> >
>
> Seriously, just stop.  No one on the list is taking you seriously. 
> You're an idiot, and an asshole.  Go away.
>
>   
>
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any
> >bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> >    
> >
>
> Yeah, I guess it is if you are ignorant of the way the OS works and
> too lazy to learn.  If I didn't take the time to learn about how
> Windows worked, I would expect it to be counterintuitive, too.
>
>   
>
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error
> >messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its
> >failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from
> >http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page
> >http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> >    
> >
>
> So what you are saying is that you didn't investigate how to run FC3
> in VirtualPC.  How is that the fault of the distribution?  Sounds like
> a failure on your part to perform due dilligence.
>
>   
>
> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can boot
> >into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >    
> >
>
> So you have a weird environment and you didn't research it.  Your
> stupidity, not the distribution's.
>
>   
>
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb memory
> >and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb memory, but it is
> >visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is almost unbearable.
> >    
> >
>
> Hey, dumbass, the 90's called, they want their computers back.  As we
> can afford more powerful computers for less money, code will gain more
> features and therefore require more resources.  That's not a bad
> thing, you moron.  It's up to YOU to decide what features you want and
> remove or deactivate the rest.
>
>   
>
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, in
> >gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it actualy
> >acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but since it's
> >bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >    
> >
>
> No, it's quite stupid.  That bug has been documented and discussed ad
> nauseum.  Your being too stupid or lazy to find out about it doesn't
> mean that the distro is bad.  And if you don't understand that FC is a
> bleeding edge distro and is EXPECTED to uncover bugs and problems,
> then you need to go read the very first paragraph at
> http://fedora.redhat.com.  YOU need to do some work instead of coming
> in here and blaming your ignorance and stupidity on the distro.
>
>   
>
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up
> >time is longer than FC1.
> >    
> >
>
> If you don't have accurate data, then you're talking out of your ass. 
> Shut up.  Oh, and see my response to #4 again.
>
>   
>
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet it
> >takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000
> >installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. I
> >forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or even
> >worse.
> >    
> >
>
> You stupid, stupid shit.  You're comparing apples to oranges.  If
> Windows 2000 is so much better, hey, don't let the door hit you in the
> ass on the way out, OK?
>
>   
>
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >    
> >
>
> I can think of pages and pages of stuff to add to an "Edward Yang Sucks"
> thread.
>
>   
>
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. 
> >    
> >
>
> Yes, you are.  You're spewing half-truths and statements of ignorance
> intended to be insulting and derogatory.
>
>   
>
> >Actually I think Linux and Open
> >Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.
> >    
> >
>
> You wanna play in this arena, then learn how to play nice.
>
>   
>
> > Thanks.
> >    
> >
>
> Any time.
>
> LW
>
>   
>

[Edward Yang]

The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove what 
I say - "Linux community has a dark side".

Thomas Cameron wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 17:59:25 +0800, Edward Yang
> <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   
>
> > After getting so many reply from my last post, I finally understand why the
> >post aroused so much agitation.
> >    
> >
>
> Um, because you're being an asshole, maybe?
>
>   
>
> > 1. It seems for some people, 'FC3 sucks' is the same as '*Linux*
> sucks'.
> >But I am very sorry, I did not mean that. I just meant FC3 sucks or FC3
> >sucks because it is worse than FC1 based on my personal experience.
> >    
> >
>
> No, you ignoramus - if I showed up in your neighborhood and started
> yelling publicly that you and your neighbors and all the work they do
> sucks, would you react kindly?  I thknk not.
>
>   
>
> > 2. Some young guys (mostly students) or even not-so-young guys (what the
> >hell who are they?) like the feel of calling somebody *troll*, and so they
> >seize every possible chance to show off their *skills* at name calling.
> >That's a dark side I already know about Linux communitiy. But, please note I
> >am not saying the *whole* Linux community is bad, I mean a small part of it.
> >    
> >
>
> You are such an idiot.  A quick Google search finds just as many
> instances of the word "troll" in Windows newsgroups as Linux ones.
>
>   
>
> > Okay, let me elaborate why I think FC3 sucks or FC3 is worse than FC1. Note
> >that I did not have experience with FC2.
> >    
> >
>
> Seriously, just stop.  No one on the list is taking you seriously. 
> You're an idiot, and an asshole.  Go away.
>
>   
>
> > 1. Installation. Well, what can I say? It is not worse, but it not any
> >bettern than FC1. Components selection is still very difficult.
> >    
> >
>
> Yeah, I guess it is if you are ignorant of the way the OS works and
> too lazy to learn.  If I didn't take the time to learn about how
> Windows worked, I would expect it to be counterintuitive, too.
>
>   
>
> > 2. FC3 could not start into X in Virtual PC. It spews out tons of error
> >messages complaining something that actually should not have caused its
> >failure. So I have to download a temporary patch from
> >http://vpc.visualwin.com/. See page
> >http://vpc.visualwin.com/Notes/FedoraCore.3.Final.html.
> >    
> >
>
> So what you are saying is that you didn't investigate how to run FC3
> in VirtualPC.  How is that the fault of the distribution?  Sounds like
> a failure on your part to perform due dilligence.
>
>   
>
> > 3. After several times of kernel updating (at least 3), I finally can boot
> >into X from the so called official kernel provided by FC3.
> >    
> >
>
> So you have a weird environment and you didn't research it.  Your
> stupidity, not the distribution's.
>
>   
>
> > 4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb memory
> >and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb memory, but it is
> >visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is almost unbearable.
> >    
> >
>
> Hey, dumbass, the 90's called, they want their computers back.  As we
> can afford more powerful computers for less money, code will gain more
> features and therefore require more resources.  That's not a bad
> thing, you moron.  It's up to YOU to decide what features you want and
> remove or deactivate the rest.
>
>   
>
> > 5. I am a newbie on Linux, but I already find a few bugs. For example, in
> >gnome-termial, if I set DEL to ASCII DEL in the profile settings, it actualy
> >acts like BACKSPACE. This bug may be specific only to gnome, but since it's
> >bundled with FC3, so I attribute the problem to FC3. It's quite reasonable.
> >    
> >
>
> No, it's quite stupid.  That bug has been documented and discussed ad
> nauseum.  Your being too stupid or lazy to find out about it doesn't
> mean that the distro is bad.  And if you don't understand that FC is a
> bleeding edge distro and is EXPECTED to uncover bugs and problems,
> then you need to go read the very first paragraph at
> http://fedora.redhat.com.  YOU need to do some work instead of coming
> in here and blaming your ignorance and stupidity on the distro.
>
>   
>
> > 6. I have not acurate data to prove this, but I feel the system boot up
> >time is longer than FC1.
> >    
> >
>
> If you don't have accurate data, then you're talking out of your ass. 
> Shut up.  Oh, and see my response to #4 again.
>
>   
>
> > 7. This is a minor problem - I only installed kernel+gnome, no KDE. Yet it
> >takes up more than 2gb space. What the hell? A normal Windows 2000
> >installation usually takes only 1.5gb even with all components selected. I
> >forgot how much was FC1, but FC3 apparently is not doing better or even
> >worse.
> >    
> >
>
> You stupid, stupid shit.  You're comparing apples to oranges.  If
> Windows 2000 is so much better, hey, don't let the door hit you in the
> ass on the way out, OK?
>
>   
>
> > 8. I may think of others that attribute to this 'FC3 sucks' topic.
> >    
> >
>
> I can think of pages and pages of stuff to add to an "Edward Yang Sucks"
> thread.
>
>   
>
> > Final words - I am not negating Linux. 
> >    
> >
>
> Yes, you are.  You're spewing half-truths and statements of ignorance
> intended to be insulting and derogatory.
>
>   
>
> >Actually I think Linux and Open
> >Source has a very good future. That's why I am catching the new waves here.
> >    
> >
>
> You wanna play in this arena, then learn how to play nice.
>
>   
>
> > Thanks.
> >    
> >
>
> Any time.
>
> LW
>
>   
>

[Chris Stark]

Edward Yang wrote:
>  The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove
> what 
>  I say - "Linux community has a dark side". 
Please come here for help -- that's what this list is for -- but can we 
please cut this out?

Every community has people that fit into every personality type. Some 
people are friendly, and some are downright rude. Making that sort of 
judgment can be done outside of this list. Our common thread here is 
that we all use Fedora Core Linux.

Just as shouting "Apple sucks!" on an Apple list will make people angry, 
saying that "FC3 sucks" on this list will do the same. Please stop 
making broad negative statements about this community -- there are many 
of us here who would just as soon give you the shirts off our backs if 
you so needed it.

-- 
Chris Stark
Musician, Linux User, Grad Student
http://chrisstark.com

[Edward Yang]

Chris Stark wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove 
> > what I say - "Linux community has a dark side".
>
>
>  Please come here for help -- that's what this list is for -- but can 
>  we please cut this out?
>
>  Every community has people that fit into every personality type. Some 
>  people are friendly, and some are downright rude. Making that sort of 
>  judgment can be done outside of this list. Our common thread here is 
>  that we all use Fedora Core Linux.
>
>  Just as shouting "Apple sucks!" on an Apple list will make people 
>  angry, saying that "FC3 sucks" on this list will do the same. Please 
>  stop making broad negative statements about this community -- there 
>  are many of us here who would just as soon give you the shirts off our 
>  backs if you so needed it.
>  
So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me **** 
in every post and every paragraph)?

[Jeramy Ross]

In the words of one of my colleagues... "Let the biscuit go" 

Best wishes to all,
Jeramy


On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:40:15 +0800, Edward Yang
<neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; wrote:
>   So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me
> **** in
>  every post and every paragraph)?

[Chris Stark]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me
> **** 
>  in every post and every paragraph)?
>   
While I don't support name calling, I do support getting over it.

Whether or not you feel you have done anything wrong, readers of this 
list have the PERCEPTION that you started this thread in an aggressive 
and hostile manner by attacking the very thing that we work with and 
devote much time and energy toward.

Whether this was your intention is only something you can know. If you 
think that the name calling was undeserved, please understand that our 
perceptions of your behavior are that of hostility, stubbornness, and 
narrow-mindedness. If you want those perceptions to change, you need to 
start LISTENING to the advice that has been given.

Again, no I don't think that name calling is acceptable, but neither is 
your behavior. Grow up and get over it.

-- 
Chris Stark
Musician, Linux User, Grad Student
http://chrisstark.com

[Edward Yang]

Chris Stark wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me 
> > **** in every post and every paragraph)?
> >
>
>  While I don't support name calling, I do support getting over it.
>
>  Whether or not you feel you have done anything wrong, readers of this 
>  list have the PERCEPTION that you started this thread in an aggressive 
>  and hostile manner by attacking the very thing that we work with and 
>  devote much time and energy toward.
>
>  Whether this was your intention is only something you can know. If you 
>  think that the name calling was undeserved, please understand that our 
>  perceptions of your behavior are that of hostility, stubbornness, and 
>  narrow-mindedness. If you want those perceptions to change, you need 
>  to start LISTENING to the advice that has been given.
>
>  Again, no I don't think that name calling is acceptable, but neither 
>  is your behavior. Grow up and get over it.
>  
Hmm~~ I am not perfect person. But I like your style.

[Edward Yang]

Chris Stark wrote:

>  Edward Yang wrote:
>
> > So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me 
> > **** in every post and every paragraph)?
> >
>
>  While I don't support name calling, I do support getting over it.
>
>  Whether or not you feel you have done anything wrong, readers of this 
>  list have the PERCEPTION that you started this thread in an aggressive 
>  and hostile manner by attacking the very thing that we work with and 
>  devote much time and energy toward.
>
>  Whether this was your intention is only something you can know. If you 
>  think that the name calling was undeserved, please understand that our 
>  perceptions of your behavior are that of hostility, stubbornness, and 
>  narrow-mindedness. If you want those perceptions to change, you need 
>  to start LISTENING to the advice that has been given.
>
>  Again, no I don't think that name calling is acceptable, but neither 
>  is your behavior. Grow up and get over it.
>  
What I want to add is - Try to post something like 'Windows sucks!!' to 
a Windows newsgroup and wait for rsponse.

I bet you won't get any words such as *troll* or *idiot* or *moron* or 
even more.

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  What I want to add is - Try to post something like 'Windows
> sucks!!' 
>  to a Windows newsgroup and wait for rsponse.
>
>  I bet you won't get any words such as *troll* or *idiot* or *moron* or 
>  even more. 
Well, basically (and I was included in the group for many, many years), 
Windows users have a self esteem lowered... You can see for yourself, 
people may use it, but at least *nobody* I know *loves* it... Where as 
Apple, BSD, Linux and BeOS are a *completely* different story. That's 
the way I see it, anyway... and that't virutally the *only* explanation 
I can give why Windows users in Windows lists may not take seriuos a 
"Windows sucks" comment... <joke>They already know that</joke>

[James McKenzie]

Gain Paolo Mureddu wrote:
>  Edward Yang wrote:
>  
> > What I want to add is - Try to post something like 'Windows sucks!!' 
> > to a Windows newsgroup and wait for rsponse.
> >
> > I bet you won't get any words such as *troll* or *idiot* or *moron* or 
> > even more.
>  
>  
>  Well, basically (and I was included in the group for many, many years), 
>  Windows users have a self esteem lowered... You can see for yourself, 
>  people may use it, but at least *nobody* I know *loves* it... Where as 
>  Apple, BSD, Linux and BeOS are a *completely* different story. That's 
>  the way I see it, anyway... and that't virutally the *only* explanation 
>  I can give why Windows users in Windows lists may not take seriuos a 
>  "Windows sucks" comment... <joke>They already know that</joke>
>   
You missed a very important and greatly misunderstood OS:  IBM's OS/2. 
I used it from 1992 until just short of 2000, when I started to explore 
LINUX.  BTW, think banks and nuclear power plants.

-- 
James McKenzie

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

James McKenzie wrote:

>  You missed a very important and greatly misunderstood OS:  IBM's OS/2. 
>  I used it from 1992 until just short of 2000, when I started to 
>  explore LINUX.  BTW, think banks and nuclear power plants.
>  
Yeah, I omited it by accident... the whole OS/2 -- Win95 issue make my 
blood boil.

[Aly Dharshi]

Its called ignoring that sort of verbage. I don't support name calling and I 
usually find those sort of posters have very little to offer in helping me get 
ahead with my problem.

So if you ignore that sort of fluff and posters then you are set.

Cheers,

	Aly.

>  So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me
> **** 
>  in every post and every paragraph)?
>   
-- 
Aly Dharshi
aly.dharshi(a)telus.net

	"Amor est vitae essentia = Love is the essence of life"

[Michael Scottaline]

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:40:15 +0800
Edward Yang <neo_in_matrix(a)fastmail.fm&gt; insightfully noted:

EY>Chris Stark wrote:
EY>
EY>> Edward Yang wrote:
EY>>
EY>>> The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove 
EY>>> what I say - "Linux community has a dark side".
EY>>
EY>>
EY>> Please come here for help -- that's what this list is for -- but can 
EY>> we please cut this out?
EY>>
EY>> Every community has people that fit into every personality type. Some
EY>
EY>> people are friendly, and some are downright rude. Making that sort of
EY>
EY>> judgment can be done outside of this list. Our common thread here is 
EY>> that we all use Fedora Core Linux.
EY>>
EY>> Just as shouting "Apple sucks!" on an Apple list will make people 
EY>> angry, saying that "FC3 sucks" on this list will do the same. Please

EY>> stop making broad negative statements about this community -- there 
EY>> are many of us here who would just as soon give you the shirts off
EY>our  > backs if you so needed it.
EY>>
EY>So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me **** 
EY>in every post and every paragraph)?
<PLONK>

-- 
"The man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 
years of his life"
--Muhammad Ali

[Paul]

On Fri, 2005-01-28 at 09:40 +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  Chris Stark wrote: 
>  > Edward Yang wrote: 
>  > > The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove
>  > > what I say - "Linux community has a dark side". 
>  > 
>  > Please come here for help -- that's what this list is for -- but can
>  > we please cut this out? 
>  > 
>  > Every community has people that fit into every personality type.
>  > Some people are friendly, and some are downright rude. Making that
>  > sort of judgment can be done outside of this list. Our common thread
>  > here is that we all use Fedora Core Linux. 
>  > 
>  > Just as shouting "Apple sucks!" on an Apple list will make people
>  > angry, saying that "FC3 sucks" on this list will do the same. Please
>  > stop making broad negative statements about this community -- there
>  > are many of us here who would just as soon give you the shirts off
>  > our backs if you so needed it. 
>  > 
>  So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me ****
>  in every post and every paragraph)? 
Please, everybody grow up a bit and let this drop?

This thread is not the least bit constructive and should just die.

Paul

[Joseph Green]

Edward Yang wrote:

>  Chris Stark wrote:
>
> > Edward Yang wrote:
> >
> >> The post by the WORST PERSON is a very excellent example to proove 
> >> what I say - "Linux community has a dark side".
> >
> >
> > Please come here for help -- that's what this list is for -- but can 
> > we please cut this out?
> >
> > Every community has people that fit into every personality type. Some 
> > people are friendly, and some are downright rude. Making that sort of 
> > judgment can be done outside of this list. Our common thread here is 
> > that we all use Fedora Core Linux.
> >
> > Just as shouting "Apple sucks!" on an Apple list will make people 
> > angry, saying that "FC3 sucks" on this list will do the same. Please 
> > stop making broad negative statements about this community -- there 
> > are many of us here who would just as soon give you the shirts off 
> > our backs if you so needed it.
> >
>  So, I wonder if you support name calling (as Mr. WORST calling me **** 
>  in every post and every paragraph)? 

I don't support name calling, but you did do it first ("FC3 Sucks" is 
the equivelent of calling everyone on this list a bad name, as we're all 
involved in some manner with the development of FC3). That doesn't 
neccessarily make it okay for thomas to unleash the language like that, 
but you've done nothing but present problems that aren't related to 
Fedora CORE 3 as if they're bugs in the way FC3 is put together and 
functions. Gnome is NOT developed by the FC3 developers, it is an 
optional package that you may choose to install when you are installing 
FC3. VirtualPC is NOT developed by the FC3 developers. Java is NOT 
developed by the FC3 developers.

If you're having issues implementing certain software packages, as you 
have in prior posts as well as this one, then you could ask for help 
here. Understand though, that the FC3 developers, and FC3 as an install, 
are not responsible for watching everyone elses coding and making sure 
that ALL optional software packages run perfectly on every possible 
hardware configuration.

sorry for beating a dead horse guys, I just caught this thread before 
leaving work. I wish that other distros had a group as responsive as you 
guys.

 -Joseph Green

<PS> thanks for the bits on procmail scripts guys, I'm a procmail/linux 
noob and that helped me with some filtering I've been trying to do

why I think thunderbird sucks! (was Re: Why I think FC3 sucks!)

[Mike Hoy]

why i think thunderbird sucks..

i have  filter set up to kill this "why i think FC3 sucks!" thread and a 
few others. but thunderbird only applies the filters once the emails are 
downloaded. So it's a nice way to put all of your emails away when 
you're done reading them but not for killing threads like this one.

note: the suject 'why i think thunderbird sucks' is in jest. i like the 
program.

mike hoy

Yea i know i shouldn't have done this but i am just so frustrated with 
having to sift thru this nonsense every single day!

why I think thunderbird sucks! (was Re: Why I think FC3 sucks!)

[Craig White]

On Wed, 2005-02-02 at 23:15 -0700, Mike Hoy wrote:
>  why i think thunderbird sucks..
>  
>  i have  filter set up to kill this "why i think FC3 sucks!" thread and a 
>  few others. but thunderbird only applies the filters once the emails are 
>  downloaded. So it's a nice way to put all of your emails away when 
>  you're done reading them but not for killing threads like this one.
>  
>  note: the suject 'why i think thunderbird sucks' is in jest. i like the 
>  program.
>  
>  mike hoy
>  
>  Yea i know i shouldn't have done this but i am just so frustrated with 
>  having to sift thru this nonsense every single day! 
----
you gots to take the good with da bad - I have nuked that thread many
times - I don't read it

use a threaded view in Thunderbird, collapse the thread, delete the one
remaining 'top' and they all delete with it at the same time...best you
can do with filters.

Now, with procmail or sieve, you can send it to bit bucket before it
ever gets to Thunderbird but I don't generally create rules for
'threads' only obnoxious people  ;-)

Craig

why I think thunderbird sucks! (was Re: Why I think FC3 sucks!)

[Mike Hoy]

> use a threaded view in Thunderbird, collapse the thread, delete the
> one
> remaining 'top' and they all delete with it at the same time...best you
> can do with filters.
>
> Now, with procmail or sieve, you can send it to bit bucket before it
> ever gets to Thunderbird but I don't generally create rules for
> 'threads' only obnoxious people  ;-)
>  
threaded view is nice. will have to look into procmail and sieve.. but 
for now i think threaded view is gonna work fine.

mike h

why I think thunderbird sucks! (was Re: Why I think FC3 sucks!)

[Duncan Lithgow]

On Thursday 03 February 2005 07:56, Mike Hoy wrote:
>  >use a threaded view in Thunderbird, collapse the thread, delete
> the one
>  >remaining 'top' and they all delete with it at the same time...best you
>  >can do with filters.
>  >
>  >Now, with procmail or sieve, you can send it to bit bucket before it
>  >ever gets to Thunderbird but I don't generally create rules for
>  >'threads' only obnoxious people  ;-)
>
>  threaded view is nice. will have to look into procmail and sieve.. but
>  for now i think threaded view is gonna work fine.
>
>  mike h 
I've switched from thunderbird to KMail partly for the reasons you've 
mentioned about being flooded with uninteresting emails. In Lmail you can set 
it to ignore certain threads and alert you to new emails in other 'watched' 
threads. You could probably make a pop rule to avoid even downloading the 
threads you don't want.

I'd recommend the change, I'm much happier with Kmail now (running in Gnome 
by-the-way)

Duncan

POP3, IMAP, and downloading subject lines.

[James Wilkinson]

Mike Hoy wrote:
>  why i think thunderbird sucks..
>  
>  i have  filter set up to kill this "why i think FC3 sucks!" thread and a 
>  few others. but thunderbird only applies the filters once the emails are 
>  downloaded. So it's a nice way to put all of your emails away when 
>  you're done reading them but not for killing threads like this one. 
Unfortunately, it's logicaly impossible to kill e-mail threads by
subject until the mail client has seen the subject!

In standard Internet e-mail, the subject line is part of the e-mail
header.

Most ISPs use POP3 for client-bound e-mail. This is a very simple
Internet protocol. Normally a client simply downloads an entire e-mail
(including headers), and by the time the client has worked out that the
subject isn't wanted, then it's too late: the rest of the e-mail is
already coming!

It is possible to use the TOP command to merely get the message headers,
but this is listed as "optional": not all servers support it. More
importantly, I believe that there is no standard way to get the rest of
the message *without* getting the headers as well. So you'd have to
download the headers, check that you want the e-mail, then download the
headers and the rest of the e-mail. On a mailing list like this, for
example, unless you kill lots of threads, then you're going to be
downloading the headers twice for nearly every e-mail, and you actually
download more.

With SMTP, the oldest standard protocol, there is no way to interrupt an
inbound message once it's started coming while still telling the sending
mail server not to try again.

IMAP is a much newer and much richer protocol. It's also not much used
by ISPs because it supports keeping messages on the server, and the ISPs
want the e-mail off their servers as quickly as possible!

It does have support for retrieving subjects, and even for getting the
server to search by subject and delete the results. I can't see any
indication (quickly checking the RFC) that this is optional, but I don't
know how much client software supports it: anyone?

That's rather longer than I expected. Sorry about that.

James.
-- 
James Wilkinson       | Telsa ruthlessly depopulates the cuddly toy pile.
Exeter    Devon    UK | There is only room for so many penguins in any one
E-mail address: james | house. Alan wakes. Telsa throws cuddly toys down the
@westexe.demon.co.uk  | stairwell. Alan is struck by a blinding flash of
                      | penguin.  -- Telsa Gwynne's Diary.

Let us call this something else.

>  I don't support name calling, but you did do it first ("FC3
> Sucks" is 
>  the equivelent of calling everyone on this list a bad name, as we're all 
>  involved in some manner with the development of FC3). That doesn't 
>  neccessarily make it okay for thomas to unleash the language like that, 
>  but you've done nothing but present problems that aren't related to 
>  Fedora CORE 3 as if they're bugs in the way FC3 is put together and 
>  functions. Gnome is NOT developed by the FC3 developers, it is an 
>  optional package that you may choose to install when you are installing 
>  FC3. VirtualPC is NOT developed by the FC3 developers. Java is NOT 
>  developed by the FC3 developers.
>   
The above statement remind me of a joke of a lost helicopter pilot who
asks a person in the window of a building, "Where am I?" The answer he
received was, "In a helicopter". He know knew where he was. He was
outside the Microsoft building because the answer was correct but did
not really speak to his real problem.

Fedora is a collection of software packaged as a unit and distributed
by Fedora (who I claim is really a subgroup of RedHat). They chose
what to include and what to not include. Sure someone with experience
can choose which of the included software not to install so his needs
are best met. But one of our goals as a Linux community is to convince people
that Linux offers an viable alternative to that other choice.
To posit that everything that is part of the distribution that was not
actually written by the Fedora developers  (which includes the kernels)
can not be discussed or criticized is a slippery slope.

We may be all involved in Fedora Development in some way but not in
the same way. There are some that are more equal than others. It is my
position that any program that is distributed on the CD-s of a Fedora
distribution is fair game to be discussed on the list both positively
and negatively.
=======================================================================
Serocki's Stricture:
	Marriage is always a bachelor's last option.
-------------------------------------------
Aaron Konstam
Computer Science
Trinity University
One Trinity Place.
San Antonio, TX 78212-7200

telephone: [phone]
email:[e-mail]

[Jesus M. Rodriguez]

Fedora is not the best to some, adequate to others, and the best to
others as well.
I like Fedora because I'm familiar with RH Linux.  I'm comfortable in
it.  Some like
Gentoo for its ability to build for their specific hardward, while others prefer
Debian.

None are perfect.  If you're interested in Linux, try out several distributions,
ask for help on the appropriate list, and stay with a distro you like.  If none
suit your needs, then try Mac OS X, FreeBSD, or Windows.

Saying something sucks is nothing more than one persons way of getting
attention on a mailing list and a sure fire way to get others riled up.

Personally, it's best to simply ignore folks that come out and say something
sucks without asking for help to solve their problems.

I hope Edward can find a solution to his problems, but he must be willing
to work at them.

Later
Jesus Rodriguez

[Edward Yang]

Jesus M. Rodriguez wrote:

> Fedora is not the best to some, adequate to others, and the best to
> others as well.
> I like Fedora because I'm familiar with RH Linux.  I'm comfortable in
> it.  Some like
> Gentoo for its ability to build for their specific hardward, while others prefer
> Debian.
>
> None are perfect.  If you're interested in Linux, try out several distributions,
> ask for help on the appropriate list, and stay with a distro you like.  If none
> suit your needs, then try Mac OS X, FreeBSD, or Windows.
>
> Saying something sucks is nothing more than one persons way of getting
> attention on a mailing list and a sure fire way to get others riled up.
>
> Personally, it's best to simply ignore folks that come out and say something
> sucks without asking for help to solve their problems.
>
> I hope Edward can find a solution to his problems, but he must be willing
> to work at them.
>
> Later
> Jesus Rodriguez
>
>   
>  
Hmm~ I like your style.

[Bill Rugolsky Jr.]

On Thu, Jan 27, 2005 at 05:59:25PM +0800, Edward Yang wrote:
>  4. It is hopelessly slower than FC1! I could run FC1 with only 128mb
>
>  memory and don't feel much sluggishness. I now run FC3 with 164mb 
>  memory, but it is visibly slower than FC1! Application startup time is 
>  almost unbearable. 
On *real* hardware, some things are slower, especially in RAM constrained
situations; but many things are faster.  Several changes could contribute
to markedly slower performance in an emulator.  You must understand that
in an emulator, the guest scheduler and virtual memory system can have
a complex interaction with the host scheduler and virtual memory system.

The HZ setting in 2.6 defaults to 1000; it was 100 in 2.4.  This can
cause the host scheduler to see the guest as a CPU hog, resulting in
longer latencies when you use it interactively -- it feels slower. There
are patches working their way towards usability that would essentially
eliminate unnecessary ticks of periodic clock, as this is desirable in
virtual environment.  But for starters, you might try setting HZ to 100,
or tweaking some feature of VirtualPC.

Another thing is that the kernel expects fast, uniform access to memory,
unless it is using NUMA.  The kernel has a tendency to touch memory
pages all over the place, so if the entire emulation is not resident in
memory on the host system, things slow down considerably; this effect
is frequently seen in User-Mode Linux.  Remember, access to your swap file
is thousands of times slower than access to RAM!

Until there is infrastructure in place for the guest OS to determine whether
a page is in memory, and the guest OS uses it, this will continue to be a
problem on memory-constrained systems.  The "workaround" on Linux is for
environments like User-Mode Linux to put their temporary files in ramfs
or tmpfs. I don't know what, if any, tuning is possible with VirtualPC.

As for your complaints of bloat and bugs, FC3 has its share of both,
but in this community you report them and try to help fix them, rather
than whining about it.  You are empowered to do this -- that's the whole
point, really!  The upside for your investigative efforts is that, with
the help of others, you can usually have a bug fix in days or weeks,
and no proprietary OS, with at best quarterly releases, comes close to
that, if they even bother to fix your bug at all.

And if you prefer to be spoon fed, stick with a system other than Linux.

Regards,

	Bill Rugolsky

[Gain Paolo Mureddu]

Hmm... There may yet still be a reason why you notice such a slowdown 
with FC3 when compared to FC1&2: SELinux... Yes, it increases system's 
security, but on some cases it may be too much an overhead to the system 
and indeed a system hog. In my case since I use custom built kernels 
(due some odd hardware that I would not be able to use otherwise) I have 
to shut down SELinux to successfully boot the kernel (other wise the 
audit will fail and boot will stop). Try that and see if your 
performance increases... I'm sure many on the list think otherwise 
regards this, but in my experience it has worked.... I went from 106 
processes (fresh boot into my session) to 83 when disabled this.