8:11 p.m.
Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech savvy for
doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports, .....etc.
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Thanx.
8:39 p.m.
On 10/22/2014 09:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech
savvy for
doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports,
.....etc.
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Thanx.
I like PCLInuxOS, since it is a rolling release, and you never have to
reinstall it. The update procedure is pretty simple, and adding
apps via Synaptic is also pretty simple. The KDE desktop is reminiscent
of Windows, and it's possible to work from the menu itself,
or to put icons (widgets?) on the desktop and start programs from them,
just as it is in Windows. The PCLOS Forum is a very
helpful group, and you normally get an answer to a question within 24
hours, sometimes less. I didn't start my Linux career with
PCLOS, so I can't say for certain what a new user from Windows would
say, but I think it is a good system, and I'v been with it for
over 4 years. (And it doesn't, at least not yet, have systemd! Altho a
novice would probably never notice the difference.)
--doug
8:49 p.m.
On 10/22/2014 07:39 PM, Doug wrote:
On 10/22/2014 09:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
> Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
> in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
> windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
>
> So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a
> linux
> distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech
> savvy for
> doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports,
> .....etc.
>
> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Thanx.
I like PCLInuxOS, since it is a rolling release, and you never have to
reinstall it. The update procedure is pretty simple, and adding
apps via Synaptic is also pretty simple. The KDE desktop is
reminiscent of Windows, and it's possible to work from the menu itself,
or to put icons (widgets?) on the desktop and start programs from
them, just as it is in Windows. The PCLOS Forum is a very
helpful group, and you normally get an answer to a question within 24
hours, sometimes less. I didn't start my Linux career with
PCLOS, so I can't say for certain what a new user from Windows would
say, but I think it is a good system, and I'v been with it for
over 4 years. (And it doesn't, at least not yet, have systemd! Altho a
novice would probably never notice the difference.)
Thank you Doug.
I will look into it and take it for a test drive.
--doug
8:49 p.m.
>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
I do not know as I have only installed it once for someone
but have no idea about it's maintenance requirements.
I recomend Ubuntu 14.04 it is very easy and has a 7 year life span.
It's a one stop install from usb or dvd.
It advises when updates are available and one click installs and
configures those.
As with all Linuxen there is a learning curve in working out how to get
to applications but it's not scary.
Roger
1:33 a.m.
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 09:39:17PM -0400, Doug wrote:
On 10/22/2014 09:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
> Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
> in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
> windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
>
> So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
> distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech
> savvy for
> doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports,
> .....etc.
>
> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Thanx.
I like PCLInuxOS, since it is a rolling release, and you never have to
reinstall it. The update procedure is pretty simple, and adding
apps via Synaptic is also pretty simple. The KDE desktop is reminiscent
of Windows, and it's possible to work from the menu itself,
or to put icons (widgets?) on the desktop and start programs from them,
just as it is in Windows. The PCLOS Forum is a very
helpful group, and you normally get an answer to a question within 24
hours, sometimes less. I didn't start my Linux career with
PCLOS, so I can't say for certain what a new user from Windows would
say, but I think it is a good system, and I'v been with it for
over 4 years. (And it doesn't, at least not yet, have systemd! Altho a
novice would probably never notice the difference.)
IIRC, when PCLOS was initiated several years ago, their stated purpose was
to be a seamless experience for the LInux novice. I was happy to hear they
are still going strong and also happy to hear that they are a rolling
release, which ensures an up to date system. So, I second your
recommendation!
Lee
1:46 a.m.
On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 19:11 -0600, jd1008 wrote:
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Along with other suggestions, consider the support aspect. If they
can't do it themselves, it's going to be you. Which distro can you put
up with? Either working it for yourself, or finding a support forum
that's useful for you.
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-200.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Wed Oct 15 13:48:38 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
3:53 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 4:11 AM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech savvy for
doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports, .....etc.
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Thanx.
I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
CentOS will most likely out-live Windows 7 and maintains a very strict
update policy (you'll have to work hard to break it) and once
installed correctly, will require little administrative attention. On
the down side, CentOS has far less packaged software compared to
Fedora / Debian / Ubuntu (Even w/ EPEL and RPMFusion enabled).
Ubuntu has far more software, is easier to use, but the Ubuntu's LTS
policy is far less strict than CentOS so breakage due to updates is
more common.
- Gilboa
5:50 a.m.
On 23 October 2014 02:11, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech savvy for
doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports, .....etc.
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Lots of useful suggestions here, but my experience has been that if
the machine is getting plagued by viruses then the user is doing ill
advised things. Switching to Linux might help to a degree in
restricting what they can do, but the more important thing might be
for them to learn to be a bit more cautious. After all switching OS
does almost nothing to improve the protection of things like online
accounts with poor passwords.
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
7:25 a.m.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:53:42 +0300
Gilboa Davara wrote:
I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software
is
there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
Or if you find the horror that is the Ubuntu Unity interface too
much to bear, Linux Mint is essentially Ubuntu with a different
UI plugged in by default. (I used to think Unity was the most
horrible interface ever invented, then I had to use Windows 8
and I apologized to Ubuntu :-).
11:30 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Gilboa Davara <gilboad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software
is
there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
CentOS will most likely out-live Windows 7 and maintains a very strict
update policy (you'll have to work hard to break it) and once
installed correctly, will require little administrative attention. On
the down side, CentOS has far less packaged software compared to
Fedora / Debian / Ubuntu (Even w/ EPEL and RPMFusion enabled).
Ubuntu has far more software, is easier to use, but the Ubuntu's LTS
policy is far less strict than CentOS so breakage due to updates is
more common.
I'm also thinking about CentOS in this use case. It's still a bit
early for CentOS 7 in terms of both stability and extra repos, but
if/when I use CentOS in this manner, I will be using the El Repo and
the Nux Dextop repos -- http://li.nux.ro/repos.html. With Nux
especially, you get all the extra applications that CentOS is
generally missing.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
11:36 a.m.
On 10/23/2014 11:30 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
I'm also thinking about CentOS in this use case. It's still a
bit
early for CentOS 7 in terms of both stability and extra repos, but
if/when I use CentOS in this manner, I will be using the El Repo and
the Nux Dextop repos --http://li.nux.ro/repos.html. With Nux
especially, you get all the extra applications that CentOS is
generally missing.
The only problem you'll have with CentOS (or RHEL) 7 will be the lack of a
32-bit environment. If you need to run any Win32 or proprietary 32-bit apps
(Skype) you're SOL.
11:55 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Michael Cronenworth <mike(a)cchtml.com> wrote:
The only problem you'll have with CentOS (or RHEL) 7 will be the
lack of a
32-bit environment. If you need to run any Win32 or proprietary 32-bit apps
(Skype) you're SOL.
There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
and http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like in Fedora.
12:08 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 08:25 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:53:42 +0300
Gilboa Davara wrote:
> I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
> there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
Or if you find the horror that is the Ubuntu Unity interface too
much to bear, Linux Mint is essentially Ubuntu with a different
UI plugged in by default. (I used to think Unity was the most
horrible interface ever invented, then I had to use Windows 8
and I apologized to Ubuntu :-).
Have you installed Classic Shell (free) on your
Windows 8 system?
Make it look like Win 7 or even XP. Get rid of those big ugly
square things forever!
--doug
12:35 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will only help Skype
run. You will have trouble getting other proprietary apps to run so do not use
this as a "well, 32-bit apps will work" excuse.
I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just
like in Fedora.
There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
Do you need additional proof?
12:37 p.m.
Just to add my tuppence worth.....
If it's purely viruses that are the problem then, as mentioned in
another post, you can't beat a little education on browsing habits,
combined with a damn good AV package.
If there are other reasons for switching (e.g. that Windoze quickly gets
bloated and slow), then I echo some earlier comments about Ubuntu and
the KDE desktop, which is very "windows" like (just download and install
Kubuntu).
The biggest advantage that I find with Ubuntu over many other distros is
that is gives you the option to install 3rd party software as part of
the install (i.e. Flash, mp3 plug-ins, etc.) that most people need if
they use their PC recreationally. The problem seems to be that although
many of these plug-ins are free, they are not GPL and so most distros
won't install them or hold them in their software repositories, leaving
you to hunt them down yourself. Ubuntu, on the other hand, seems to
track where they can be found and will happily install them for you.
I started off with Fedora and it seemed that every day something else
wouldn't work because some plug-in or other was missing. Very quickly, I
just started again with Ubuntu instead and haven't looked back since.
On the downside (but not a major one for me), I find that the custom
install process on Fedora is a lot more intuitive (especially if, like
me, you use a separate home drive and want to retain all your data and
settings when reinstalling). Fedora also gives you a lot more options as
regards packages to install at set-up, whereas Ubuntu just installs a
basic set of apps and leaves you to worry about the rest later. However,
Fedora consequently takes many times longer.
I haven't tried any other distros but many seem to be based on Ubuntu so
in my book you probably can't go wrong with any of them.
Just my opinion, based on my own experience, your mileage may vary.
Phil
On 23/10/14 18:08, Doug wrote:
On 10/23/2014 08:25 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:53:42 +0300
> Gilboa Davara wrote:
>
>> I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
>> there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
> Or if you find the horror that is the Ubuntu Unity interface too
> much to bear, Linux Mint is essentially Ubuntu with a different
> UI plugged in by default. (I used to think Unity was the most
> horrible interface ever invented, then I had to use Windows 8
> and I apologized to Ubuntu :-).
Have you installed Classic Shell (free) on your Windows 8 system?
Make it look like Win 7 or even XP. Get rid of those big ugly
square things forever!
--doug
12:40 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:35:58PM -0500, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
>There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
>http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
>andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will
only help Skype run. You will have trouble getting other proprietary
apps to run so do not use this as a "well, 32-bit apps will work"
excuse.
>I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like in Fedora.
There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
Do you need additional proof?
but there are (some) 686 libs for those common 32-bit apps that need 'em.
Look at "yum list available | less" then search for "[356]86".
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.---- Fred Smith /
( /__ ,__. __ __ / __ : /
/ / / /__) / / /__) .+' Home: fredex(a)fcshome.stoneham.ma.us
/ / (__ (___ (__(_ (___ / :__ 781-438-5471
-------------------------------- Jude 1:24,25 ---------------------------------
12:48 p.m.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:35:58 -0500
Michael Cronenworth wrote:
There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
Do you need additional proof?
That article explicitly says they will continue to support
32 bit libraries, they just aren't shipping a 32 bit kernel.
User level 32 bit apps will continue to run. User level
apps that need some closed source driver that only works in
32 bit kernels will have a problem :-).
1:21 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:33 AM, ny6p01(a)gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 09:39:17PM -0400, Doug wrote:
> On 10/22/2014 09:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>> Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
>> in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
>> windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
>>
>> So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
>> distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech
>> savvy for
>> doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports,
>> .....etc.
>>
>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>
>> Thanx.
> I like PCLInuxOS, since it is a rolling release, and you never have to
> reinstall it. The update procedure is pretty simple, and adding
> apps via Synaptic is also pretty simple. The KDE desktop is reminiscent
> of Windows, and it's possible to work from the menu itself,
> or to put icons (widgets?) on the desktop and start programs from them,
> just as it is in Windows. The PCLOS Forum is a very
> helpful group, and you normally get an answer to a question within 24
> hours, sometimes less. I didn't start my Linux career with
> PCLOS, so I can't say for certain what a new user from Windows would
> say, but I think it is a good system, and I'v been with it for
> over 4 years. (And it doesn't, at least not yet, have systemd! Altho a
> novice would probably never notice the difference.)
IIRC, when PCLOS was initiated several years ago, their stated purpose was
to be a seamless experience for the LInux novice. I was happy to hear they
are still going strong and also happy to hear that they are a rolling
release, which ensures an up to date system. So, I second your
recommendation!
Lee
Thank you for this vote of confidence.
I have downloaded it and burned it on a DVD.
Will be installing it on the lady's computer as soon as
she can let go of it for a short time.
She will need some basic tutoring.
1:24 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:46 AM, Tim wrote:
On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 19:11 -0600, jd1008 wrote:
> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Along with other suggestions, consider the support aspect. If they
can't do it themselves, it's going to be you. Which distro can you put
up with? Either working it for yourself, or finding a support forum
that's useful for you.
support from "me" is exactly what I want to minimize :) :)
Definitely, Fedora would not be suitable for this lady I am helping.
And neither would Ubuntu.
The only thing she might ask me for help with would be to find
and install some software that would provide the functionality
(purpose of use) that she needs.
1:30 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 10:30 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Gilboa Davara
<gilboad(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
> there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
> CentOS will most likely out-live Windows 7 and maintains a very strict
> update policy (you'll have to work hard to break it) and once
> installed correctly, will require little administrative attention. On
> the down side, CentOS has far less packaged software compared to
> Fedora / Debian / Ubuntu (Even w/ EPEL and RPMFusion enabled).
> Ubuntu has far more software, is easier to use, but the Ubuntu's LTS
> policy is far less strict than CentOS so breakage due to updates is
> more common.
I'm also thinking about CentOS in this use case. It's still a bit
early for CentOS 7 in terms of both stability and extra repos, but
if/when I use CentOS in this manner, I will be using the El Repo and
the Nux Dextop repos -- http://li.nux.ro/repos.html. With Nux
especially, you get all the extra applications that CentOS is
generally missing.
I really want to avoid distros in which you have to install repos from
different
sources to get what you need.
I find that problematic for a novice due to possible conflicts between
packages
from different distros. These conflicts occur due to dependencies not
being in
sync between the packages of the main repo and the packages of the
complimentary
repo.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
1:32 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 11:08 AM, Doug wrote:
On 10/23/2014 08:25 AM, Tom Horsley wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:53:42 +0300
> Gilboa Davara wrote:
>
>> I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
>> there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
> Or if you find the horror that is the Ubuntu Unity interface too
> much to bear, Linux Mint is essentially Ubuntu with a different
> UI plugged in by default. (I used to think Unity was the most
> horrible interface ever invented, then I had to use Windows 8
> and I apologized to Ubuntu :-).
Have you installed Classic Shell (free) on your Windows 8 system?
Make it look like Win 7 or even XP. Get rid of those big ugly
square things forever!
--doug
Hey Doug,
I do not have windows 8 :)
I am still on win xp on my dual boot system.
I only boot into winxp for arcane purposes, and even that
is very rare.
1:37 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 11:35 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
> There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
> http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
>
> andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
>
They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will only
help Skype run. You will have trouble getting other proprietary apps
to run so do not use this as a "well, 32-bit apps will work" excuse.
> I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like in
> Fedora.
There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
Do you need additional proof?
The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
quality (and full functionality)
of a pdf reader/creator. That will/might have to be a non-free
(money-wise) item.
Other than that, either libreofficeor openoffice plus Firefox will be
all she needs.
VLC and SMPLAYER will also be required, along with a decent photo
gallery viewer
where she can vie the photos in auto-sequencing style or manually click
on "next".
That's really about it.
1:46 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 11:37 AM, jd1008 wrote:
>
The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
quality (and full functionality)
of a pdf reader/creator.
There are several .pdf readers that come with most Linux distros. I'm
almost certain that LibreOffice can create them, but if that's what I
need, I generally use Scribus, a cross-platform FOSS page layout program
of professional quality.
1:47 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 02:37 PM, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/23/2014 11:35 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
>> There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
>> http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
>> andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
>
> They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will only help Skype run.
You will have trouble getting other proprietary apps to run so do not use this as a
"well, 32-bit apps will work" excuse.
>
>> I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like in
Fedora.
>
> There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
>
> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
>
> Do you need additional proof?
>
The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high quality (and full
functionality)
of a pdf reader/creator. That will/might have to be a non-free (money-wise) item.
Other than that, either libreofficeor openoffice plus Firefox will be all she needs.
VLC and SMPLAYER will also be required, along with a decent photo gallery viewer
where she can vie the photos in auto-sequencing style or manually click on
"next".
That's really about it.
I hope you downloaded and burned the 32-bit edition of PCLOS. It has Adobe Reader
in the repo.
The 64-bit version only has Linux pdf programs.
--doug
2:10 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:47 PM, Doug wrote:
On 10/23/2014 02:37 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>
> On 10/23/2014 11:35 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
>> On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
>>> There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
>>> http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
>>>
>>>
andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
>>>
>>
>> They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will
>> only help Skype run. You will have trouble getting other proprietary
>> apps to run so do not use this as a "well, 32-bit apps will work"
>> excuse.
>>
>>> I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like
>>> in Fedora.
>>
>> There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
>>
>> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
>>
>> Do you need additional proof?
>>
> The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
> quality (and full functionality)
> of a pdf reader/creator. That will/might have to be a non-free
> (money-wise) item.
> Other than that, either libreofficeor openoffice plus Firefox will
> be all she needs.
> VLC and SMPLAYER will also be required, along with a decent photo
> gallery viewer
> where she can vie the photos in auto-sequencing style or manually
> click on "next".
>
> That's really about it.
>
I hope you downloaded and burned the 32-bit edition of PCLOS. It has
Adobe Reader in the repo.
The 64-bit version only has Linux pdf programs.
--doug
With 8 gig of RAM, the 32 bit version will only make use of the first 4GB.
So, I am still debating whether to install the 32 bit or the 64 bit.
2:13 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 10/23/2014 11:37 AM, jd1008 wrote:
>>
> The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
> quality (and full functionality)
> of a pdf reader/creator.
There are several .pdf readers that come with most Linux distros. I'm
almost certain that LibreOffice can create them, but if that's what I
need, I generally use Scribus, a cross-platform FOSS page layout
program of professional quality.
Libreoffice can create PDF? Rightly or wrongly, I
have been under the
impression
that the pdf format was copyright'ed by Adobe???
2:32 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:13 PM, jd1008 wrote:
Libreoffice can create PDF? Rightly or wrongly, I have been under
the
impression
that the pdf format was copyright'ed by Adobe???
As you can see here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format it's an open format.
2:34 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 01:13:09PM -0600, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/23/2014 12:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>On 10/23/2014 11:37 AM, jd1008 wrote:
>>>
>>The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
>>quality (and full functionality)
>>of a pdf reader/creator.
>
>There are several .pdf readers that come with most Linux distros.
>I'm almost certain that LibreOffice can create them, but if that's
>what I need, I generally use Scribus, a cross-platform FOSS page
>layout program of professional quality.
Libreoffice can create PDF? Rightly or wrongly, I have been under
Yes, you can "export to PDF" from the "file" menu.
the impression
that the pdf format was copyright'ed by Adobe???
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---- Fred Smith -- fredex(a)fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -----------------------------
God made him who had no sin
to be sin for us, so that in him
we might become the righteousness of God."
--------------------------- Corinthians 5:21 ---------------------------------
2:40 p.m.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:32:43 -0700
Joe Zeff wrote:
As you can see here,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format it's an open format.
Which is a good thing because most 3rd party viewers render
pdf files faster and more accurately than the official
acrobat reader software from adobe :-).
2:57 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:37 PM, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/23/2014 11:35 AM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> On 10/23/2014 11:55 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
>> There are i586 Skype packages for CentOS 7 in the Nux repo:
>>
http://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.2.0.13-1.R.i586.rpm
>>
andhttp://li.nux.ro/download/nux/dextop/el7/x86_64/skype-4.3.0.37-2.R.i586.rpm
>
> They provide the 32-bit libraries that Skype requires. This will only
help
Skype run. You will have trouble getting other proprietary apps to
run so do not use this as a "well, 32-bit apps will work" excuse.
>
>> I'm assuming there are 32-bit libraries for RHEL/CentOS, just like
in
Fedora.
>
> There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
>
> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
>
> Do you need additional proof?
>
The primary apps she will need on a linux installation are a high
quality (and full
functionality)
of a pdf reader/creator. That will/might have to be a non-free
(money-wise) item.
Other than that, either libreofficeor openoffice plus Firefox will
be
all she needs.
VLC and SMPLAYER will also be required, along with a decent photo
gallery viewer
where she can vie the photos in auto-sequencing style or manually
click on "next".
That's really about it.
My wife has similar needs. She's intelligent enough, but patently
uninterested in delving into the playground that operating systems are
for me. For many years now - and this should not be a surprising answer
to a question on a Fedora list - she has been using Fedora.
At first, there were a lot of "How do I do this thing I don't already
know how to do" questions. I had to set up the machine with flash and
rpmfusion codecs for her. With that out of the way, 'support requests'
are rare; it just works.
You should expect some form of learning curve when moving between *any
two operating systems* - Windows to Windows, distro to distro, DE to DE,
things are not exactly the same. Don't promise that they will be the
same. Familiarity has two states: known and unknown. Don't think that
because KDE looks kind of like XP before you start using it, and $distro
uses KDE for their default image, that $distro is the best choice for
your user. Major desktop enviroments provide fairly streamlined ways to
perform common tasks; any thing more complex and you, as the linux
evangelist in the situation, will be responsible for providing assistance.
So I suggest you choose the distribution that you are most comfortable
with, the one that you feel will provide the best support for *you* to
support her. Let her choose her own desktop environment; that's part of
what makes Linux fun.
--
-- Pete Travis
- Fedora Docs Project Leader
- 'randomuser' on freenode
- immanetize(a)fedoraproject.org
3:14 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:57 PM, Pete Travis wrote:
At first, there were a lot of "How do I do this thing I
don't already
know how to do" questions. I had to set up the machine with flash and
rpmfusion codecs for her. With that out of the way, 'support requests'
are rare; it just works.
My older sister and I share what used to be our parent's retirement
condo. It didn't take more than five minutes with a LiveCD of Ubuntu
for her to know that this was what she wanted. After Unity came out,
she spent almost a year trying to work with it before switching to Xfce,
and when we needed to re-install because something got messed up, we
used Xubuntu. On a day-to-day basis, she manages her box on her own,
and asks for much less help than when she ran Windows. She's even been
known to find and follow instructions that need her to use a terminal
without asking me to do it or watch what happens. (As long as I can see
what she was told to do, I can either reverse what happened or find out
how to at the Ubuntu forum.) For her, It Just Works.
My suggestion is to make up one or more LiveCDs and let your wife
experiment with them. If/when you find the one she likes, you can set
her up as a dual boot so that she's always got something familiar to
fall back on. I don't know about other distros, but I do know that if
Ubuntu's installer detects Windows, it will ask if you want to have
access to it from Ubuntu. If you do, it auto-mounts the Windows
partition at boot and puts an icon on your desktop.
4:12 p.m.
Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 11:53:42 +0300
Gilboa Davara wrote:
> I'd personally go with CentOS 7.0 (if all the required software is
> there) or Ubuntu 14.04 LTS.
Or if you find the horror that is the Ubuntu Unity interface too
much to bear, Linux Mint is essentially Ubuntu with a different
UI plugged in by default. (I used to think Unity was the most
horrible interface ever invented, then I had to use Windows 8
and I apologized to Ubuntu :-).
I was going to say either Mint (to stay mostly up-to-date) or CentOS 6 or 7 to
provide a stable platform with security updates. I would not wish Ubuntu on
anyone, and GNOME3 doesn't think the way I do, although the new interface is
less bad. Mint rocks.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
4:21 p.m.
Tom Horsley wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2014 12:35:58 -0500
Michael Cronenworth wrote:
> There is no 32-bit environment. This is a feature of RHEL 7.
>
> https://access.redhat.com/solutions/509373
>
> Do you need additional proof?
That article explicitly says they will continue to support
32 bit libraries, they just aren't shipping a 32 bit kernel.
User level 32 bit apps will continue to run. User level
apps that need some closed source driver that only works in
32 bit kernels will have a problem :-).
Thanks, I guess that would be the use case for 32 bit kernel (why the 64bit data
32bit code model isn't done, I don't know). In any case, there would not be any
such drivers if there is no 32bit kernel to build against, would there. Using a
driver built against another kernel is too risky to contemplate someone
deliberately making that a production case (I hope).
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
4:40 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 12:40 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
but there are (some) 686 libs for those common 32-bit apps that need
'em.
Look at "yum list available | less" then search for "[356]86".
There is a barebones set of 32-bit binary libraries. No development packages.
Calling this an environment is dubious. Installing RHEL and expecting any 32-bit
app to run will leave you disappointed.
10:11 p.m.
on 10/23/2014 03:10 PM, jd1008 wrote:
With 8 gig of RAM, the 32 bit version will only make use of the first
4GB.
So, I am still debating whether to install the 32 bit or the 64 bit.
Unless you are running a 32-bit PAE kernel which can address more than
4GB of RAM....
--
Kevin J. Cummings
kjchome(a)verizon.net
cummings(a)kjchome.homeip.net
cummings(a)kjc386.framingham.ma.us
Registered Linux User #1232 (http://www.linuxcounter.net/)
10:47 p.m.
Joe Zeff:
> As you can see here,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format it's an open
> format.
Tom Horsley:
Which is a good thing because most 3rd party viewers render
pdf files faster and more accurately than the official
acrobat reader software from adobe :-).
Nor as they as massively huge! Try reading a PDF on someone's old PC,
and not only is it painfully slow, you may not even get the software to
fit on the drives.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
ZNQR LBH YBBX
10:52 p.m.
Allegedly, on or about 23 October 2014, jd1008 sent:
Libreoffice can create PDF?
Yes, it can. And you can install a PDF printer, if it isn't already
installed, so that *any* application can print a PDF. However...
You get very little control over how they're created, so your quest for
a fully functional PDF creator may be fulfilled.
Since my need for a PDF file is virtually only to give someone something
that they can print out without any major dramas, it works fine for me.
But I'm not creating forms, nor anything fancy.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.9.10-100.fc17.x86_64 #1 SMP Sun Jul 14 01:31:27 UTC 2013 x86_64
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point
trying to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the
public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
ZNQR LBH YBBX
10:58 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 09:11 PM, Kevin Cummings wrote:
on 10/23/2014 03:10 PM, jd1008 wrote:
> With 8 gig of RAM, the 32 bit version will only make use of the first 4GB.
> So, I am still debating whether to install the 32 bit or the 64 bit.
Unless you are running a 32-bit PAE kernel which can address more than
4GB of RAM....
I have asked that question of the website's contact: first.polack(a)gmail.com
Must wait for a reply.
11:13 p.m.
On 10/24/14 11:58, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/23/2014 09:11 PM, Kevin Cummings wrote:
> on 10/23/2014 03:10 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>
>> With 8 gig of RAM, the 32 bit version will only make use of the first 4GB.
>> So, I am still debating whether to install the 32 bit or the 64 bit.
> Unless you are running a 32-bit PAE kernel which can address more than
> 4GB of RAM....
>
I have asked that question of the website's contact: first.polack(a)gmail.com
Must wait for a reply.
http://pclinuxoshelp.com/index.php/Kernel
--
If you can't laugh at yourself, others will gladly oblige.
4:02 a.m.
On 23 October 2014 22:40, Michael Cronenworth <mike(a)cchtml.com> wrote:
On 10/23/2014 12:40 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>
> but there are (some) 686 libs for those common 32-bit apps that need 'em.
> Look at "yum list available | less" then search for "[356]86".
There is a barebones set of 32-bit binary libraries. No development
packages. Calling this an environment is dubious. Installing RHEL and
expecting any 32-bit app to run will leave you disappointed.
Can someone point me to where the set of libraries is listed or
described to be 'barebones', otherwise it sounds like the same
situation for running a 64 bit RHEL 6 or Fedora and using 32bit apps,
which I already do in quite a lot of cases. (This is not rhetorical
sarcasm, I really would like to know for exactly that reason.)
--
imalone
http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk
4:44 a.m.
On 10/24/14 17:02, Ian Malone wrote:
On 23 October 2014 22:40, Michael Cronenworth <mike(a)cchtml.com>
wrote:
> On 10/23/2014 12:40 PM, Fred Smith wrote:
>> but there are (some) 686 libs for those common 32-bit apps that need 'em.
>> Look at "yum list available | less" then search for
"[356]86".
>
> There is a barebones set of 32-bit binary libraries. No development
> packages. Calling this an environment is dubious. Installing RHEL and
> expecting any 32-bit app to run will leave you disappointed.
>
Can someone point me to where the set of libraries is listed or
described to be 'barebones', otherwise it sounds like the same
situation for running a 64 bit RHEL 6 or Fedora and using 32bit apps,
which I already do in quite a lot of cases. (This is not rhetorical
sarcasm, I really would like to know for exactly that reason.)
FWIW, I have never had a problem with running 32-bit applications, on a 64 bit installs,
which have been packaged correctly as they all have as dependencies the 32-bit libraries.
--
If you can't laugh at yourself, others will gladly oblige.
9:24 a.m.
On 24.10.2014 05:52, Tim wrote:
Allegedly, on or about 23 October 2014, jd1008 sent:
> Libreoffice can create PDF?
Yes, it can. And you can install a PDF printer, if it isn't already
installed, so that *any* application can print a PDF. However...
You get very little control over how they're created, so your quest for
a fully functional PDF creator may be fulfilled.
Since my need for a PDF file is virtually only to give someone something
that they can print out without any major dramas, it works fine for me.
But I'm not creating forms, nor anything fancy.
Besides Hybrid PDF
What is a hybrid PDF file?
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/HowTo/CreateAHybridPDF
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Faq/Writer/PDF_Hybrid
3:26 p.m.
On 10/23/2014 10:13 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
On 10/24/14 11:58, jd1008 wrote:
> On 10/23/2014 09:11 PM, Kevin Cummings wrote:
>> on 10/23/2014 03:10 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>
>>> With 8 gig of RAM, the 32 bit version will only make use of the first 4GB.
>>> So, I am still debating whether to install the 32 bit or the 64 bit.
>> Unless you are running a 32-bit PAE kernel which can address more than
>> 4GB of RAM....
>>
> I have asked that question of the website's contact: first.polack(a)gmail.com
> Must wait for a reply.
>
http://pclinuxoshelp.com/index.php/Kernel
Thanx Ed.
10:44 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:24 PM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/23/2014 12:46 AM, Tim wrote:
> On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 19:11 -0600, jd1008 wrote:
>>
>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Along with other suggestions, consider the support aspect. If they
> can't do it themselves, it's going to be you. Which distro can you put
> up with? Either working it for yourself, or finding a support forum
> that's useful for you.
support from "me" is exactly what I want to minimize :) :)
Definitely, Fedora would not be suitable for this lady I am helping.
And neither would Ubuntu.
You seem to be asking for the impossible. Whether you install Fedora,
Ubuntu, OS X, or Windows, there are going to be regular updates.
Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
so?
11:39 a.m.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014, Tom H wrote:
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:24 PM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 10/23/2014 12:46 AM, Tim wrote:
>> On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 19:11 -0600, jd1008 wrote:
>>>
>>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>
>> Along with other suggestions, consider the support aspect. If they
>> can't do it themselves, it's going to be you. Which distro can you put
>> up with? Either working it for yourself, or finding a support forum
>> that's useful for you.
>
> support from "me" is exactly what I want to minimize :) :)
> Definitely, Fedora would not be suitable for this lady I am helping.
> And neither would Ubuntu.
You seem to be asking for the impossible. Whether you install Fedora,
Ubuntu, OS X, or Windows, there are going to be regular updates.
Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
so?
No matter what distro she chooses, there will be a learning curve, and
that will require help if she's not at least a little computer-oriented
already. If you have taken on the role of helping her, you can't avoid
that.
But note that's no different than for Windows or MacOS. I haven't tried
to do much with any Windows machine past Vista, but people still ask me
to help them with their problems now and then. So I sit down and try to
puzzle it out. The last time I sat down at a new Windows machine
running, I think it was Windows 7, things were *not* intuitive. The
same thing goes for finding your way around MacOS. Once you get beyond
just clicking on apps, they both require some learning.
The *difference* is that people who use Windows and MacOS have spent a
*lot* of time learning it, but did it a little at a time over a period
of years. So they don't recognize how much time it was in aggregate.
Then, when they switch to linux, it is "hard" not because it's any more
difficult than Windows, but simply that much of the *years* of work they
spent learning Windows doesn't immediately transfer. That's different
than being hard, and there's almost no way around it. Either she'll
take to it or she won't.
I gotta say, as much as I bitch about stuff like systemd, there's a
reason I keep coming back to Fedora -- and one them is that
updating the system is so freaking pain-free. And any distro without
frequent updates is a dangerous distro, including Windows and MacOS.
Er, notice I said "update" not "upgrade."
And, with respect to updates, you can't get much more simple than "sudo
yum update." Personally, I think fedora shines in that area. And,
fedora supports its older distros quite sufficiently. If your friend
sticks with it for a year, she'll be just another old linux hand, and
won't be intimidated by either changing distros or performing a clean
upgrade via installation. I don't know anybody who stuck with linux for
a year *and used it regularly for daily stuff* who wasn't well-prepared
for doing a clean installation. And, it's my personal philosophy that,
for *personal* machines, a clean upgrade is the way to go -- it cuts
down tremendously on malware, leaks, misconfigurations, etc. that linger
with regular upgrades. There may be good reasons to keep a production
machine chugging along, but wiping the disk on a personal maching every
few months is a smart thing to do IMHO.
billo
12:17 p.m.
Fedup has been working very well for me over the F18-20 period, and
that relative easy of use has kept me running Fedora for the past year
and a half.
I don't know if this is something on the Fedora roadmap, but a
graphical version of Fedup would go a long way toward making many
users more comfortable updating their Fedora system.
While I'm not crazy about updating every six months, Fedora's practice
of continually pushing new kernels into "stable" releases combined
with the fact that changes over six months are by nature less radical
than those over two (or four or five) years should mean that the
chances of an upgrade from version to version succeeding are higher.
Especially for new hardware, Fedora works very, very well because you
get new kernels and other bits all the time, and you don't necessarily
have to wait for the next distro release to start seeing things work
better.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
stevenhrosenberg(a)gmail.com
steven(a)stevenrosenberg.net
On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Bill Oliver <vendor(a)billoblog.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014, Tom H wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 2:24 PM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 10/23/2014 12:46 AM, Tim wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 2014-10-22 at 19:11 -0600, jd1008 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>>
>>>
>>> Along with other suggestions, consider the support aspect. If they
>>> can't do it themselves, it's going to be you. Which distro can you
put
>>> up with? Either working it for yourself, or finding a support forum
>>> that's useful for you.
>>
>>
>> support from "me" is exactly what I want to minimize :) :)
>> Definitely, Fedora would not be suitable for this lady I am helping.
>> And neither would Ubuntu.
>
>
> You seem to be asking for the impossible. Whether you install Fedora,
> Ubuntu, OS X, or Windows, there are going to be regular updates.
>
> Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
> repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
> so?
>
No matter what distro she chooses, there will be a learning curve, and
that will require help if she's not at least a little computer-oriented
already. If you have taken on the role of helping her, you can't avoid
that.
But note that's no different than for Windows or MacOS. I haven't tried
to do much with any Windows machine past Vista, but people still ask me
to help them with their problems now and then. So I sit down and try to
puzzle it out. The last time I sat down at a new Windows machine
running, I think it was Windows 7, things were *not* intuitive. The
same thing goes for finding your way around MacOS. Once you get beyond
just clicking on apps, they both require some learning.
The *difference* is that people who use Windows and MacOS have spent a
*lot* of time learning it, but did it a little at a time over a period
of years. So they don't recognize how much time it was in aggregate.
Then, when they switch to linux, it is "hard" not because it's any more
difficult than Windows, but simply that much of the *years* of work they
spent learning Windows doesn't immediately transfer. That's different
than being hard, and there's almost no way around it. Either she'll
take to it or she won't.
I gotta say, as much as I bitch about stuff like systemd, there's a
reason I keep coming back to Fedora -- and one them is that
updating the system is so freaking pain-free. And any distro without
frequent updates is a dangerous distro, including Windows and MacOS.
Er, notice I said "update" not "upgrade."
And, with respect to updates, you can't get much more simple than "sudo
yum update." Personally, I think fedora shines in that area. And,
fedora supports its older distros quite sufficiently. If your friend
sticks with it for a year, she'll be just another old linux hand, and
won't be intimidated by either changing distros or performing a clean
upgrade via installation. I don't know anybody who stuck with linux for
a year *and used it regularly for daily stuff* who wasn't well-prepared
for doing a clean installation. And, it's my personal philosophy that,
for *personal* machines, a clean upgrade is the way to go -- it cuts
down tremendously on malware, leaks, misconfigurations, etc. that linger
with regular upgrades. There may be good reasons to keep a production
machine chugging along, but wiping the disk on a personal maching every
few months is a smart thing to do IMHO.
billo
--
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9:41 p.m.
On 10/27/2014 11:17 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
Fedup has been working very well for me over the F18-20 period, and
that relative easy of use has kept me running Fedora for the past year
and a half.
I don't know if this is something on the Fedora roadmap, but a
graphical version of Fedup would go a long way toward making many
users more comfortable updating their Fedora system.
While I'm not crazy about updating every six months, Fedora's practice
of continually pushing new kernels into "stable" releases combined
with the fact that changes over six months are by nature less radical
than those over two (or four or five) years should mean that the
chances of an upgrade from version to version succeeding are higher.
Especially for new hardware, Fedora works very, very well because you
get new kernels and other bits all the time, and you don't necessarily
have to wait for the next distro release to start seeing things work
better.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
stevenhrosenberg(a)gmail.com
steven(a)stevenrosenberg.net
Thank you Johnny.
The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
maintain itself.
In a lot of ways, windoze does this for their users, albeit, does not
protect them from malware.
9:53 p.m.
On 28.10.2014 03:41, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/27/2014 11:17 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
> Fedup has been working very well for me over the F18-20 period, and
> that relative easy of use has kept me running Fedora for the past year
> and a half.
>
> I don't know if this is something on the Fedora roadmap, but a
> graphical version of Fedup would go a long way toward making many
> users more comfortable updating their Fedora system.
>
> While I'm not crazy about updating every six months, Fedora's practice
> of continually pushing new kernels into "stable" releases combined
> with the fact that changes over six months are by nature less radical
> than those over two (or four or five) years should mean that the
> chances of an upgrade from version to version succeeding are higher.
>
> Especially for new hardware, Fedora works very, very well because you
> get new kernels and other bits all the time, and you don't necessarily
> have to wait for the next distro release to start seeing things work
> better.
> --
> Steven Rosenberg
> http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
> http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
> stevenhrosenberg(a)gmail.com
> steven(a)stevenrosenberg.net
>
Thank you Johnny.
The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
maintain itself.
In a lot of ways, windoze does this for their users, albeit, does not
protect them from malware.
There are plenty of relatively inexpensive Android tablets with the Linux inside and with
fully automatic update.
The perfect opportunity to get rid of maintenance and extend the life span. ;)
poma
10:08 p.m.
On 10/27/2014 10:41 PM, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/27/2014 11:17 AM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
> Fedup has been working very well for me over the F18-20 period, and
> that relative easy of use has kept me running Fedora for the past year
> and a half.
>
> I don't know if this is something on the Fedora roadmap, but a
> /ship/
>
Thank you Johnny.
The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
maintain itself.
In a lot of ways, windoze does this for their users, albeit, does not
protect them from malware.
Don't know what distro you've chosen. If it is a rolling relaease,
can you write a chron routine that would automatically find and
install updates once a week or so?
10:46 p.m.
On Monday, October 27, 2014 08:41:03 PM jd1008 wrote:
The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
maintain itself.
Ubuntu is your best choice. It is supported for 5 years and you can set to
install security updates automatically. If your lady friend is not tech savvy
than why bother about updating software at all if there is pressing need for
it. Ubuntu have both free and non-free packages available often in their
repos. And if she searches for anything Linuxy Ubuntu is bound to get the
first on search results. Unity is simple to use and Ubuntu comes with a good
set of software. The more updates a system receives more surface area is there
for breakage.
--
Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com,
github.com/donniezazen,
5577 8CDB A059 085D 1D60 807F 8C00 45D9 F5EF C394.
11:07 p.m.
On 10/27/2014 09:46 PM, Sudhir Khanger wrote:
On Monday, October 27, 2014 08:41:03 PM jd1008 wrote:
> The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
> any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
> her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
> maintain itself.
Ubuntu is your best choice. It is supported for 5 years and you can set to
install security updates automatically. If your lady friend is not tech savvy
than why bother about updating software at all if there is pressing need for
it. Ubuntu have both free and non-free packages available often in their
repos. And if she searches for anything Linuxy Ubuntu is bound to get the
first on search results. Unity is simple to use and Ubuntu comes with a good
set of software. The more updates a system receives more surface area is there
for breakage.
Thank you Sudhir.
I will be first installing PCLinuxOS, with bfs-PAE kernel
(kde desktop) and let her play with that for a while.
If she feels it is easy to "step up to" from Windows, then
that's what she will get on her desktop.
If not, kubuntu is next in the lineup.
11:16 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 03:41 AM, jd1008 wrote:
The lady I am trying to help does not even want to have to do
any updates. She wants it all so atutomatic, that once I configure
her network, and her desktop icons, she wants the installation to
maintain itself.
In a lot of ways, windoze does this for their users,
That's what I call an
urban legend.
Windows _tries_ to do so and it often works on most occasions, but it
also occasionally screws up pretty badly, esp. when an update goes wrong
or when Microsoft screws it (This had happened several times earlier
this year).
Windows also only tries update itself, but doesn't take care about
updating packages from other sources. In most cases, users will have to
resort to using package proprietary updaters which may or may not work,
but always will require "admin" action or them to act as maintainers.
Ralf
12:13 a.m.
On Monday, October 27, 2014 10:07:08 PM jd1008 wrote:
Thank you Sudhir.
I will be first installing PCLinuxOS, with bfs-PAE kernel
(kde desktop) and let her play with that for a while.
If she feels it is easy to "step up to" from Windows, then
that's what she will get on her desktop.
If not, kubuntu is next in the lineup.
I will check PCLinuxOS too. I haven't heard of it before.
--
Regards,
Sudhir Khanger,
sudhirkhanger.com,
github.com/donniezazen,
5577 8CDB A059 085D 1D60 807F 8C00 45D9 F5EF C394.
12:35 a.m.
On 10/28/2014 01:13 AM, Sudhir Khanger wrote:
On Monday, October 27, 2014 10:07:08 PM jd1008 wrote:
> Thank you Sudhir.
> I will be first installing PCLinuxOS, with bfs-PAE kernel
> (kde desktop) and let her play with that for a while.
> If she feels it is easy to "step up to" from Windows, then
> that's what she will get on her desktop.
> If not, kubuntu is next in the lineup.
I will check PCLinuxOS too. I haven't heard of it before.
I think you'll like PCLinuxOS. Get the KDE version. In
addition to the 32-bit version, where you want to use
bfs-PAE, like the other fellow, there is also a 64-bit
system with almost all the same apps available. If you're
not a novice, you will find that some commercial, or semi-
commercial apps are available in rpm versions, and the
rpm system is pretty nice to use. (You'll need to look
up some simple instructions on its use.) One I like
is SoftmakerOffice--there is a free and a pay version.
It's got a word-processing routine that works very nicely,
without all the gotchas of LibreOffice, a spread sheet,
and a slide maker. It looks like there is also a really
good PDF program, called Master PDF Editor, that whips
hell out of the Linux freebies. (It's free for non-
commercial use.) For anything else, it's probably in the
repos already, just install it and go.
--doug
1:01 a.m.
On Oct 23, 2014 6:42 AM, "jd1008" <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Have a friend who wants to try getting away from windows, which,
in spite of all the AV software the vendor had installed on her
windows 7, it was plagued by viruses that rendered it unusable.
So, since she is not technically savvy, I was thinking of finding a linux
distro that is practically self maintaining, as she has zero tech savvy
for
doing things like updates, configurations, fililing abrt reports,
.....etc.
Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Thanx.
--
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I suggest LinuxMint Debian edition with mate desktop. I have an
installation of it and have found that many find it very easy to use
without having any experience with Linux.
1:26 a.m.
On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 11:44 -0400, Tom H wrote:
Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an
external
repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
so?
For some people, or lots of people, upgrading every 6 months is a
headache best avoided. Quite apart from having to backup and restore,
or backup and hope you don't have to restore, personal files and
important settings, you have to deal with a changed user interface. It
nearly always changes subtly, at least, but there are also radical
changes. And it's not just a case of working them out, some of them are
just horrible.
If you (the "not them," "you") are going to manage this for them,
pick
whichever system you prefer dealing with. But if you'd like them to
take over the burden, even if not for some time, then I'd pick a distro
which is widely used by other people. Personally, I think a Linux
newbie is probably best served by Ubuntu, it's meant for people like
them, and is widely used by people like them. Other distros are more
aimed at the computer savvy geeks and already long-term Linux user.
If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or their
ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
answer about?
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-200.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Wed Oct 15 13:48:38 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
1:31 a.m.
On Tue, 2014-10-28 at 05:16 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
Windows also only tries update itself, but doesn't take care
about
updating packages from other sources. In most cases, users will have
to resort to using package proprietary updaters which may or may not
work, but always will require "admin" action or them to act as
maintainers.
Yeah, as you log in up, a dozen different applications auto-start and
try to check for updates, making anything but high spec PCs grind to
their knees. Then the rest of the apps that didn't do that, then, do it
when you start them up.
Gawd, but I hated having to use those computers, or fix up other
people's computers doing that. It was such a pain trying to *start* to
do something, as that update palaver got in the way. It's a sanity
testing time and money waster.
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-200.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Wed Oct 15 13:48:38 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
2:54 a.m.
On 10/28/2014 07:26 AM, Tim wrote:
If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or
their
ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
answer about?
That one "you" are best familiar with? I mean, if you installed the
OS/distro for a user, this user's first point of contact will be "you".
Also, provided what the OP said, I doubt any "internet help" would be of
use or even be "comprehensible" to his user ("the lady").
In that sense, I would not choose the OS the "public" is recommending,
but would choose to install the OS, which I think would cater the
"user's" demands and which I feel sufficiently experienced to be able to
answer questions on rsp. I feel able to step-in "in case".
Ralf
5:45 a.m.
On 28/10/14 18:54, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On 10/28/2014 07:26 AM, Tim wrote:
> If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or their
> ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
> answer about?
That one "you" are best familiar with? I mean, if you installed the
OS/distro for a user, this user's first point of contact will be "you".
Also, provided what the OP said, I doubt any "internet help" would be
of use or even be "comprehensible" to his user ("the lady").
In that sense, I would not choose the OS the "public" is recommending,
but would choose to install the OS, which I think would cater the
"user's" demands and which I feel sufficiently experienced to be able
to answer questions on rsp. I feel able to step-in "in case".
Ralf
I would agree with Ralf mainly because it's you who will be the point of
call for the first year or so.
Roger
6:26 a.m.
On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>
> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our
own. Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of
notebooks and stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am looking
very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
8:01 a.m.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2014, Tim wrote:
On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 11:44 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
> repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
> so?
For some people, or lots of people, upgrading every 6 months is a
headache best avoided. Quite apart from having to backup and restore,
or backup and hope you don't have to restore, personal files and
important settings, you have to deal with a changed user interface. It
nearly always changes subtly, at least, but there are also radical
changes. And it's not just a case of working them out, some of them are
just horrible.
If you (the "not them," "you") are going to manage this for them,
pick
whichever system you prefer dealing with. But if you'd like them to
take over the burden, even if not for some time, then I'd pick a distro
which is widely used by other people. Personally, I think a Linux
newbie is probably best served by Ubuntu, it's meant for people like
them, and is widely used by people like them. Other distros are more
aimed at the computer savvy geeks and already long-term Linux user.
If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or their
ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
answer about?
The thing is that you don't have to upgrade every six months in Fedora.
It's scheduled so you only really need to upgrade every other release.
That's pretty much what I do.
billo
12:07 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 05:26 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>
>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our
own. Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of
notebooks and stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am
looking very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
Am DL'ing C7-Everything ISO and will try it, time permitting.
12:12 p.m.
CentOS 7 uses a 3.10 kernel, and my 1.5-year-old AMD laptop is not
terribly happy with it, especially compared with 3.16 in Fedora. If
I'm going to muck around and always follow the latest kernel, I might
as well stick with distros that offer 3.16+ out of the box.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
stevenhrosenberg(a)gmail.com
steven(a)stevenrosenberg.net
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:07 AM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/28/2014 05:26 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
>
> On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>>
>> On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>
>>
>> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
>
>
> With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our own.
> Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of notebooks and
> stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
>
> Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am looking
> very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
>
>
Am DL'ing C7-Everything ISO and will try it, time permitting.
--
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Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
12:44 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:12:19AM -0700, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
CentOS 7 uses a 3.10 kernel, and my 1.5-year-old AMD laptop is not
terribly happy with it, especially compared with 3.16 in Fedora. If
I'm going to muck around and always follow the latest kernel, I might
as well stick with distros that offer 3.16+ out of the box.
New kernel features and driver updates are backported in each minor
release. That the kernel identifies itself as 3.10 is essentially just
to mark where Red Hat forked it. Don't be surprised if 7.1 or 7.2 works
much better on your hardware.
Marcus
12:58 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 04:26 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
I personally am looking very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
When I learned what Gnome 3 was going to be like, I started looking for
a different DE and ended up with Xfce. One of the minor things I like
about it is that you can configure it so that a right-click anywhere on
the desktop brings up your main menu; no need to go to the corner of the
panel. After a year working with Unity, my sister had me migrate her
from Ubuntu to Xubuntu. If nothing else, try a LiveUSB with the Xfce
spin; you may be pleasantly surprised because it's much less of a
resource hog than either Gnome or KDE without being minimalist.
1:04 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:44 AM, Marcus Karlsson <mk(a)acc.umu.se> wrote:
New kernel features and driver updates are backported in each minor
release. That the kernel identifies itself as 3.10 is essentially just
to mark where Red Hat forked it. Don't be surprised if 7.1 or 7.2 works
much better on your hardware.
I look forward to better hardware support as CentOS/RHEL 7 matures.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
1:04 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
When I learned what Gnome 3 was going to be like, I started looking
for a
different DE and ended up with Xfce. One of the minor things I like about
it is that you can configure it so that a right-click anywhere on the
desktop brings up your main menu; no need to go to the corner of the panel.
After a year working with Unity, my sister had me migrate her from Ubuntu to
Xubuntu. If nothing else, try a LiveUSB with the Xfce spin; you may be
pleasantly surprised because it's much less of a resource hog than either
Gnome or KDE without being minimalist.
+1 for Xfce
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
1:16 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 07:04 PM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us>
wrote:
> When I learned what Gnome 3 was going to be like, I started looking for a
> different DE and ended up with Xfce. One of the minor things I like about
> it is that you can configure it so that a right-click anywhere on the
> desktop brings up your main menu; no need to go to the corner of the panel.
> After a year working with Unity, my sister had me migrate her from Ubuntu to
> Xubuntu. If nothing else, try a LiveUSB with the Xfce spin; you may be
> pleasantly surprised because it's much less of a resource hog than either
> Gnome or KDE without being minimalist.
+1 for Xfce
I got introduced to it via Fedora for arm. With ONLY 1Gb on my
Cubieboard2, it is nice that the desktop does not eat up all your
memory. Particularly when I am only running with a SD card (I do have
sata drive builds as well).
So I am more using Xfce and might even do my F21 beta on a notebook with
it as well. Skip gnome all together on the next upgrade.
1:26 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 11:16 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
So I am more using Xfce and might even do my F21 beta on a notebook
with
it as well. Skip gnome all together on the next upgrade.
Make sure that you're using lightdm instead of gdm, because the latter
pulls in some odd dependencies, or at least it did when I was getting
rid of it.
2:04 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 12:16 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 10/28/2014 07:04 PM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
>> When I learned what Gnome 3 was going to be like, I started looking
>> for a
>> different DE and ended up with Xfce. One of the minor things I like
>> about
>> it is that you can configure it so that a right-click anywhere on the
>> desktop brings up your main menu; no need to go to the corner of the
>> panel.
>> After a year working with Unity, my sister had me migrate her from
>> Ubuntu to
>> Xubuntu. If nothing else, try a LiveUSB with the Xfce spin; you may be
>> pleasantly surprised because it's much less of a resource hog than
>> either
>> Gnome or KDE without being minimalist.
>
> +1 for Xfce
I got introduced to it via Fedora for arm. With ONLY 1Gb on my
Cubieboard2, it is nice that the desktop does not eat up all your
memory. Particularly when I am only running with a SD card (I do have
sata drive builds as well).
So I am more using Xfce and might even do my F21 beta on a notebook
with it as well. Skip gnome all together on the next upgrade.
So, between xfce and lxde, which one consumes less ram?
2:08 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:04 PM, jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
So, between xfce and lxde, which one consumes less ram?
Offhand I'd say LXDE is lighter than Xfce.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
7:09 p.m.
On 28/10/14 22:26, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>
>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>
> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our
own. Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of
notebooks and stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am
looking very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
If you want as close a whiskers to maintenance free get an
Apple/Mac/whatever`. It makes all those problems go away. But one still,
like with Linux, has to update.
All things Linux require updating and maintenance. Choice of desktops is
arbitrary because all need some learning curve. Personally I have no
problem with Unity and the Fedora desktop, I found it a retrograde step
going to mint, xfce or the like.
Otherwise CentOS, Ubuntu, and the other Linuxen mentioned over the past
weeks would suffice. Down load a few to usb sticks and try them.
There's no easy Linux option unfortunately. As someone mentioned in the
last days, you get recommendations from people who are comfortable with
their own system however that may not be indicative for your case.
This thread has gone over the same ground for many days without
resolution because no one can solve the fear, lack of want, or inability
to learn basic tools, and in a venture like providing an alternative OS
and desktop, as someone pointed out to me, months ago, You're going to
be on call for everything.
So I'm thinking, for what it's worth, just download and try the live
versions.
My 0.02 cents worth
I hope this helps in some way.
Roger
7:25 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 06:09 PM, Roger wrote:
On 28/10/14 22:26, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
> On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>> On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>>
>>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>
>> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
>
> With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our
> own. Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of
> notebooks and stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
>
> Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am
> looking very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
>
>
If you want as close a whiskers to maintenance free get an
Apple/Mac/whatever`. It makes all those problems go away. But one
still, like with Linux, has to update.
All things Linux require updating and maintenance. Choice of desktops
is arbitrary because all need some learning curve. Personally I have
no problem with Unity and the Fedora desktop, I found it a retrograde
step going to mint, xfce or the like.
Otherwise CentOS, Ubuntu, and the other Linuxen mentioned over the
past weeks would suffice. Down load a few to usb sticks and try them.
There's no easy Linux option unfortunately. As someone mentioned in
the last days, you get recommendations from people who are comfortable
with their own system however that may not be indicative for your case.
This thread has gone over the same ground for many days without
resolution because no one can solve the fear, lack of want, or
inability to learn basic tools, and in a venture like providing an
alternative OS and desktop, as someone pointed out to me, months ago,
You're going to be on call for everything.
So I'm thinking, for what it's worth, just download and try the live
versions.
My 0.02 cents worth
I hope this helps in some way.
Roger
As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with kde DE
and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16 hours
bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly automate
the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
7:38 p.m.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2014 18:25:06 -0600 jd1008 <jd1008(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/28/2014 06:09 PM, Roger wrote:
> On 28/10/14 22:26, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>
>> On 10/23/2014 03:19 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:
>>> On 10/22/2014 06:11 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas what linux to use for such a person?
>>>
>>> Isn't that what Ubuntu is for?
>>
>> With Centos7, we are finally at a stable, long-term usable OS of our
>> own. Given that it is built on F19, it has support for lots of
>> notebooks and stuff. It will be around for the next 10 years.
>>
>> Just choose which desktop you 'like' the most. I personally am
>> looking very hard at xfce instead of gnome.
>>
>>
> If you want as close a whiskers to maintenance free get an
> Apple/Mac/whatever`. It makes all those problems go away. But one
> still, like with Linux, has to update.
> All things Linux require updating and maintenance. Choice of desktops
> is arbitrary because all need some learning curve. Personally I have
> no problem with Unity and the Fedora desktop, I found it a retrograde
> step going to mint, xfce or the like.
> Otherwise CentOS, Ubuntu, and the other Linuxen mentioned over the
> past weeks would suffice. Down load a few to usb sticks and try them.
> There's no easy Linux option unfortunately. As someone mentioned in
> the last days, you get recommendations from people who are comfortable
> with their own system however that may not be indicative for your case.
> This thread has gone over the same ground for many days without
> resolution because no one can solve the fear, lack of want, or
> inability to learn basic tools, and in a venture like providing an
> alternative OS and desktop, as someone pointed out to me, months ago,
> You're going to be on call for everything.
> So I'm thinking, for what it's worth, just download and try the live
> versions.
> My 0.02 cents worth
> I hope this helps in some way.
> Roger
>
As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with kde DE
and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16 hours
bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly automate
the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
No idea of pclinuxos, but you may consider a cron job informing her on-screen of kernel
updates which require a reboot. Of course, it is quite possible that your friend may
shutdown and reboot each time so then this advice is moot.
Thanks,
Ranjan
____________________________________________________________
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7:46 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with kde
DE
and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16 hours
bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly automate
the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking you
either need to supply the root password (or, if you're in the wheel
group your password) to authorize installing the updates. Is this going
to be an issue, or is it something she's willing to put up with?
In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one
here other than you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by
people who want to get away from Windows but want something that Just
Works. Up until now, I've been pointing them at Ubuntu, but if
PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another option.
8:47 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 08:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
> As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with kde DE
> and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16 hours
> bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly automate
> the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking you either need to
supply the root password (or, if you're in the wheel group your password) to authorize
installing the updates. Is this going to be an issue, or is it something she's
willing to put up with?
In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one here other than
you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by people who want to get away from
Windows but want something that Just Works. Up until now, I've been pointing them at
Ubuntu, but if PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another option.
When you develop an automatic update routine for PCLOS, it would be good if you would post
it, preferably on the PCLinuxOS Forum, or if not, then here, and
with your permission, I will pass it on to the Forum.
--doug
9:29 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 07:47 PM, Doug wrote:
On 10/28/2014 08:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>> As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with
>> kde DE
>> and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16
>> hours
>> bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly
>> automate
>> the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
>
> I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking
> you either need to supply the root password (or, if you're in the
> wheel group your password) to authorize installing the updates. Is
> this going to be an issue, or is it something she's willing to put up
> with?
>
> In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one
> here other than you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by
> people who want to get away from Windows but want something that Just
> Works. Up until now, I've been pointing them at Ubuntu, but if
> PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another option.
When you develop an automatic update routine for PCLOS, it would be
good if you would post it, preferably on the PCLinuxOS Forum, or if
not, then here, and
with your permission, I will pass it on to the Forum.
--doug
OK. No problem.
11 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 07:47 PM, Doug wrote:
On 10/28/2014 08:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>> As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with
>> kde DE
>> and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16
>> hours
>> bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly
>> automate
>> the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
>
> I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking
> you either need to supply the root password (or, if you're in the
> wheel group your password) to authorize installing the updates. Is
> this going to be an issue, or is it something she's willing to put up
> with?
>
> In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one
> here other than you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by
> people who want to get away from Windows but want something that Just
> Works. Up until now, I've been pointing them at Ubuntu, but if
> PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another option.
When you develop an automatic update routine for PCLOS, it would be
good if you would post it, preferably on the PCLinuxOS Forum, or if
not, then here, and
with your permission, I will pass it on to the Forum.
--doug
Hi Doug,
So far, I have only found this for automatic updates, but it is not
sufficient for my intentions:
*4. Enable Automatic Updates*
Open the Configure your Computer (PCLinuxOS Control Center)
Click on System
Click on Manage System Services
Check APT to start at boot
Click on Start
Click OK
The above from
http://www.pclinuxos.com/pclinuxos-kde-2011-6-post-installation-tips/
11:17 p.m.
On 10/28/2014 07:47 PM, Doug wrote:
On 10/28/2014 08:46 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
>> As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with
>> kde DE
>> and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16
>> hours
>> bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly
>> automate
>> the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
>
> I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking
> you either need to supply the root password (or, if you're in the
> wheel group your password) to authorize installing the updates. Is
> this going to be an issue, or is it something she's willing to put up
> with?
>
> In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one
> here other than you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by
> people who want to get away from Windows but want something that Just
> Works. Up until now, I've been pointing them at Ubuntu, but if
> PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another option.
When you develop an automatic update routine for PCLOS, it would be
good if you would post it, preferably on the PCLinuxOS Forum, or if
not, then here, and
with your permission, I will pass it on to the Forum.
--doug
It seems that pclinuxos devs have not decided to "really" automate updates
but to only pop a notifier about available updates, to let the user pick
and choose
which ones to install.
The downside of this is that the updates may or may NOT be for currently
installed packages, but may include new packages that the user does not
currently have installed on the system - somewhat like an upgrade, but
not fully automated.
This is disappointing, to say the least!!!
What I want to do is to only let the update notifier notify of updated
packages
for packages already installed, and if new dependencies are needed for the
updates, then that's fine. What I will do is to create a daemon to receive
the signal of the notification, and then give Synaptic the go-ahead to
install
the updates.
But, as I said, it is not clear that the notifications ONLY pertain to
currently
installed packages and their dependencies.
If the daemon turns out to be a security risk (which I suspect it could
be!!!),
then I may have to completely forego PCLinuxOS.
12:11 a.m.
On 10/30/2014 12:17 AM, jd1008 wrote:
On 10/28/2014 07:47 PM, Doug wrote:
/snip/
> When you develop an automatic update routine for PCLOS, it would
be good if you would post it, preferably on the PCLinuxOS Forum, or if not, then here,
and
> with your permission, I will pass it on to the Forum.
>
> --doug
It seems that pclinuxos devs have not decided to "really" automate updates
but to only pop a notifier about available updates, to let the user pick and choose
which ones to install.
The downside of this is that the updates may or may NOT be for currently
installed packages, but may include new packages that the user does not
currently have installed on the system - somewhat like an upgrade, but
not fully automated.
This is disappointing, to say the least!!!
What I want to do is to only let the update notifier notify of updated packages
for packages already installed, and if new dependencies are needed for the
updates, then that's fine. What I will do is to create a daemon to receive
the signal of the notification, and then give Synaptic the go-ahead to install
the updates.
But, as I said, it is not clear that the notifications ONLY pertain to currently
installed packages and their dependencies.
If the daemon turns out to be a security risk (which I suspect it could be!!!),
then I may have to completely forego PCLinuxOS.
If the update works like the manual update, only installed files will be updated.
It does not put any files on the machine that are not already there. I can't imagine
that it would install anything that's not there already.* In the manual mode, the
process is as follows:
Reload the Package Manager--Synaptic--Mark all Updates--Apply--get a summary of the
files--apply.
*It would surely add a new dependency, if the newer version of the file needed it.
It would also remove anything that was no longer needed for anything, like some lib
that was not being used by anything anymore.
Hope that makes sense.
--doug
11:52 a.m.
On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Bill Oliver <vendor(a)billoblog.com> wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2014, Tom H wrote:
>
> You seem to be asking for the impossible. Whether you install Fedora,
> Ubuntu, OS X, or Windows, there are going to be regular updates.
>
> Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
> repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
> so?
No matter what distro she chooses, there will be a learning curve, and
that will require help if she's not at least a little computer-oriented
already. If you have taken on the role of helping her, you can't avoid
that.
The “learning curve” is an exaggerated meme based on my SMALL sample.
I’ve migrated my parents from Windows to Gnome 2 to Unity and my
neighbor from Windows to Unity without them having a problem finding
their bearings.
I gotta say, as much as I bitch about stuff like systemd, there's
a
reason I keep coming back to Fedora -- and one them is that
updating the system is so freaking pain-free. And any distro without
frequent updates is a dangerous distro, including Windows and MacOS.
This is the kind of comment that could be made on the user list of
just about any Linux distro or of Windows or OS X.
12:23 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 2:26 AM, Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 2014-10-27 at 11:44 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>
> Why don't you install Fedora and put up with having to use an external
> repo for non-free stuff (if necessary) and upgrading every 6 months or
> so?
For some people, or lots of people, upgrading every 6 months is a
headache best avoided. Quite apart from having to backup and restore,
or backup and hope you don't have to restore, personal files and
important settings, you have to deal with a changed user interface. It
nearly always changes subtly, at least, but there are also radical
changes. And it's not just a case of working them out, some of them are
just horrible.
Users are used to subtle - and not-so-subtle - changes in UI. Windows
and OS X have them too.
If you (the "not them," "you") are going to
manage this for them, pick
whichever system you prefer dealing with. But if you'd like them to
take over the burden, even if not for some time, then I'd pick a distro
which is widely used by other people. Personally, I think a Linux
newbie is probably best served by Ubuntu, it's meant for people like
them, and is widely used by people like them. Other distros are more
aimed at the computer savvy geeks and already long-term Linux user.
Ubuntu's main advantage is that it allows a user to install non-free
packages out of the box.
Its installer's streamlined and simple but Anaconda isn't far behind,
although it was closer before the spoke-and-wheel weirdness.
If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or
their
ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
answer about?
Judging from the hits that you get when you search for a problem,
Ubuntu. Although you do get many Arch hits, which is unsurprising
given how good its documentation is.
I'm not sure that there are many ISPs that support Linux.
12:26 p.m.
On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Tom H <tomh0665(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Judging from the hits that you get when you search for a problem,
Ubuntu. Although you do get many Arch hits, which is unsurprising
given how good its documentation is.
Could you image a Fedora Wiki as good as the Arch Wiki? That would be amazing.
--
Steven Rosenberg
http://stevenrosenberg.net/blog
http://blogs.dailynews.com/click
12:50 a.m.
On Fri, 2014-10-31 at 12:52 -0400, Tom H wrote:
The “learning curve” is an exaggerated meme based on my SMALL
sample.
I’ve migrated my parents from Windows to Gnome 2 to Unity and my
neighbor from Windows to Unity without them having a problem finding
their bearings.
I've always thought that the learning curve for Windows was far worse
than Linux. You don't have forums like this one, when I used it. Sure,
there are ones, but there was a lot more of the blind leading the blind,
some of the most bizarre registry issues to deal with, expensive
magazines that were far more about advertising things to waste your
money on than they helped you...
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-203.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Sat Oct 25 13:08:51 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
12:57 a.m.
Tim:
> For some people, or lots of people, upgrading every 6 months is
a
> headache best avoided. Quite apart from having to backup and restore,
> or backup and hope you don't have to restore, personal files and
> important settings, you have to deal with a changed user interface. It
> nearly always changes subtly, at least, but there are also radical
> changes. And it's not just a case of working them out, some of them are
> just horrible.
Tom H:
Users are used to subtle - and not-so-subtle - changes in UI.
Windows
and OS X have them too.
I think "resigned to" is a better description. I'm no computer
illiterate, I can find my way around, but I hate having to go hunting
for the new way to do things that I already knew how to do.
> If a new user is going to ask a support question of someone, or
their
> ISP, which Linux distro do you think they're most likely to get an
> answer about?
Judging from the hits that you get when you search for a problem,
Ubuntu.
I would have thought so, too. I think it's the nearest one to being
"main stream" that there is.
I'm not sure that there are many ISPs that support Linux.
Quite a few, where I am, though often not overtly advertised as
supporting any particular OSs. I've tended to use medium sized ISPs
that have a reasonable sized client base that they can look after with
their own staff, rather than some overseas call centre. They tend to
have techy staff, rather than script monkeys, and many use or have
dabbled with Linux.
The first two I joined I asked about using Linux with them, to be told
without them having to double check with anybody else, that quite a lot
of their users or staff used it, and they said I'd be fine. The first
one was just before I started using Linux, and mentioned that I was
thinking about trying it out, and they said I'd probably enjoy it.
Can't say I'd ever describe using Windows, that way, to anyone.
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-203.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Sat Oct 25 13:08:51 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
9:14 a.m.
On Sat, 1 Nov 2014 16:20:18 +1030 Tim <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Fri, 2014-10-31 at 12:52 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> The “learning curve” is an exaggerated meme based on my SMALL sample.
> I’ve migrated my parents from Windows to Gnome 2 to Unity and my
> neighbor from Windows to Unity without them having a problem finding
> their bearings.
I've always thought that the learning curve for Windows was far worse
than Linux. You don't have forums like this one, when I used it.
Ah! But you have poorly-written buggy software to buy for every little "feature"
you could like and additional software to buy to iron out the wrinkles in there and
additional software to buyt iron out the wrinkles in there and additional software to buyt
iron out the wrinkles in there and ..... (I believe that that establishes the sequence).
Who can possibly beat that?
Sure,
there are ones, but there was a lot more of the blind leading the blind,
some of the most bizarre registry issues to deal with, expensive
magazines that were far more about advertising things to waste your
money on than they helped you...
I agree completely! I have been lucky enough to have been on Unix and Linux
(SuSE/RH/SuSE/Fedora) all my computing life and I can not see what the fuss with the
"steep-learning curve" and "limited options" on Linux is about...
Btw, in my experience nothing is as helpful as the Fedora users (and the R-help, for R
users) mailing lists!
Best wishes,
Ranjan
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-203.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Sat Oct 25 13:08:51 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
--
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4:52 p.m.
jd1008 wrote:
On 10/28/2014 12:16 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>
> On 10/28/2014 07:04 PM, Steven Rosenberg wrote:
>> On Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Joe Zeff <joe(a)zeff.us> wrote:
>>> When I learned what Gnome 3 was going to be like, I started looking for a
>>> different DE and ended up with Xfce. One of the minor things I like about
>>> it is that you can configure it so that a right-click anywhere on the
>>> desktop brings up your main menu; no need to go to the corner of the panel.
>>> After a year working with Unity, my sister had me migrate her from Ubuntu to
>>> Xubuntu. If nothing else, try a LiveUSB with the Xfce spin; you may be
>>> pleasantly surprised because it's much less of a resource hog than
either
>>> Gnome or KDE without being minimalist.
>>
>> +1 for Xfce
>
> I got introduced to it via Fedora for arm. With ONLY 1Gb on my Cubieboard2,
> it is nice that the desktop does not eat up all your memory. Particularly
> when I am only running with a SD card (I do have sata drive builds as well).
>
> So I am more using Xfce and might even do my F21 beta on a notebook with it as
> well. Skip gnome all together on the next upgrade.
>
>
So, between xfce and lxde, which one consumes less ram?
I booted all of the FC20 Live CDs I have on hand, and I share this for your
edification:
CD RAM used MB Idle CPU
XFCE-64 204 99.[6-8]
LXDE-32 123 99.[4-6]
MATE-32 143 99.[7-9]
MATE-64 237 99.8-100
Each was booted in KVM, I opened a singe terminal, ran "top -d10" and recorded
the highest and lowest idle in one minute. Then I used free to see the RAM in
use. The CPU matters to me, when Cinnamon came out I liked it, but it used about
4% of the CPU at idle, and more if anything was updating the screen. I would
call all of these a tie on CPU, I'm tempted to call memory a tie, too, if it's
really tight the 32bit release will make some difference.
HTH
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
5:38 p.m.
Joe Zeff wrote:
On 10/28/2014 05:25 PM, jd1008 wrote:
> As my time is not infinite :) I decided to install pclinuxos with kde DE
> and bfs-PAE kernel. Yes, I will be spending some time, maybe 8 or 16 hours
> bringing this lady up to speed on basic things. I will certainly automate
> the updates, so she will not have to interact with the process at all.
I don't know how PCLinuxOS handles updates, but generally speaking you either
need to supply the root password (or, if you're in the wheel group your
password) to authorize installing the updates. Is this going to be an issue, or
is it something she's willing to put up with?
In any event, please keep us informed. I doubt that I'm the only one here other
than you who gets asked about installing/using Linux by people who want to get
away from Windows but want something that Just Works. Up until now, I've been
pointing them at Ubuntu, but if PCLinuxOS is even easier, that gives me another
option.
Certainly Fedora or CentOS can update "by magic" if needed. Nut the user needs
to avoid powering down while that happens. You can start:
yum --downloadonly upgrade
and get the RPMs staged in /var/cache/yum, then offer to complete as part of the
shutdown:
yum -y upgrade && yum clean all
Just a thought, I run the upgrade by hand, but the download once a day, or on
boot, depending on the machine being up. Since the upgrade can end in a power
off, the user need not wait until the process completes.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
1:49 a.m.
On Sat, 2014-11-01 at 09:14 -0500, Ranjan Maitra wrote:
Ah! But you have poorly-written buggy software to buy for every
little
"feature" you could like and additional software to buy to iron out
the wrinkles in there and additional software to buyt iron out the
wrinkles in there and additional software to buyt iron out the
wrinkles in there and ..... (I believe that that establishes the
sequence).
Who can possibly beat that?
There's a song that springs to mind whenever I think about the Windows
solution of adding a new thing to fix an old thing, recursively, instead
of actually fixing the fault, it fits it down to a tee: There was an
old lady who swallowed a fly.
--
tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 3.16.6-203.fc20.i686 #1 SMP Sat Oct 25 13:08:51 UTC 2014 i686
All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted, there is no point trying
to privately email me, I will only read messages posted to the public lists.
George Orwell's '1984' was supposed to be a warning against tyranny, not
a set of instructions for supposedly democratic governments.
3461
days inactive
3471
days old
91 comments
27 participants
participants (27)
-
Bill Davidsen -
Chris -
Digvijay Patankar -
Doug -
Ed Greshko -
Fred Smith -
Gilboa Davara -
Ian Malone -
JD -
Joe Zeff -
Kevin Cummings -
Lee -
Marcus Karlsson -
Michael Cronenworth -
Pete Travis -
Phil Edwards -
poma -
Ralf Corsepius -
Ranjan Maitra -
Robert Moskowitz -
Roger -
Steven Rosenberg -
Sudhir Khanger -
Tim -
Tom H -
Tom Horsley -
William Oliver