I've been seeing a problem growing a little over time. It's odd, and I have no idea what's wrong- maybe someone has an idea (or at least a better idea about DNS than I).
I have a machine that relies on another to do the DNS for my home; the one on the ISP seems unable to figure out perl.org, so I had to make my own. Following instructions years ago, I created a DNS machine and it's been fine since then without touching it.
But every once in a while I get a link to a site and firefox just gives me "jobsearch.monster.com" not found. I can run 'host' from the same machine and it nails it. I can run it from my DNS machine, and it nails it again, in a flash.
Just now I went to 'hardware.slashdot.org' (just like a couple of days ago) and it didn't find it.
Is there a chance that firefox does something different? I don't want to fill up my /etc/hosts with every site it decides not to find...
Thanks
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 16:31 -0500, Brian Fahrlander wrote:
I've been seeing a problem growing a little over time. It's odd,and I have no idea what's wrong- maybe someone has an idea (or at least a better idea about DNS than I).
I have a machine that relies on another to do the DNS for my home;the one on the ISP seems unable to figure out perl.org, so I had to make my own. Following instructions years ago, I created a DNS machine and it's been fine since then without touching it.
But every once in a while I get a link to a site and firefox justgives me "jobsearch.monster.com" not found. I can run 'host' from the same machine and it nails it. I can run it from my DNS machine, and it nails it again, in a flash.
Just now I went to 'hardware.slashdot.org' (just like a couple ofdays ago) and it didn't find it.
Is there a chance that firefox does something different? I don'twant to fill up my /etc/hosts with every site it decides not to find...
---- the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so your client times out before the dns lookup completes.
Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server.
Craig
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so your client times out before the dns lookup completes.
Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server.
Well, if I had to get it twice to actually make it, sure...the funny thing is, if I go there first with 'host' and find it, then use Firefox, it still doesn't. (Denying all reason that *I* know) Firefox just won't find it. That's what makes me think Firefox is involved. These are sites I've visited every day or so for years...and I've not changed the local /etc/resolv.conf or anything on my end for about as long.
How can this be?
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 06:02 -0500, Brian Fahrlander wrote:
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so your client times out before the dns lookup completes.
Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server.
Well, if I had to get it twice to actually make it, sure...the funnything is, if I go there first with 'host' and find it, then use Firefox, it still doesn't. (Denying all reason that *I* know) Firefox just won't find it. That's what makes me think Firefox is involved. These are sites I've visited every day or so for years...and I've not changed the local /etc/resolv.conf or anything on my end for about as long.
How can this be?--
Brian Fahrländer Christian, Conservative, and Technomad Evansville, IN http://www.fahrlander.net ICQ: 5119262 AIM: WheelDweller
Brian,
Do any other browsers have this problem?
I haven't seen any of the IPv6 firefox issues mentioned lately, but have you turned off IPv6? IIRC firefox had issues timing out DNS lookups via IPv6, before trying IPv4.
add:
alias net-pf-10 off
To /etc/modprobe.conf, unfortunately you'll have to reboot to get it to take affect.
Bob...
Bob...
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Brian Fahrlander wrote: | On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:43 -0700, Craig White wrote: | | |>the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent |>tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so |>your client times out before the dns lookup completes. |> |>Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server. | | | Well, if I had to get it twice to actually make it, sure...the funny | thing is, if I go there first with 'host' and find it, then use Firefox, | it still doesn't. (Denying all reason that *I* know) Firefox just won't | find it. That's what makes me think Firefox is involved. These are | sites I've visited every day or so for years...and I've not changed the | local /etc/resolv.conf or anything on my end for about as long. | | How can this be?
Your ISP DNS is likely going slow every now and again -- watch it with tcpdump and see what you see.
Whatever machine at your site talks to the ISP DNS server is often giving up on the query before the response is received. Then I guess it gives up and figures it's an NXDOMAIN. There's a thing called negative TTL for DNS, basically if it got a response of NXDOMAIN once, it will for a fixed time not bother to check again but immediately say NXDOMAIN to queries. I guess this is where your "it doesn't exist no matter what I do" period is coming from.
Then after the negative TTL is exhausted, it will check again with your ISP DNS, and depending on if your ISP DNS is fast enough or not, you either get through or have another period of negative TTL timeout.
Here's a suggestion: on the machine that talks to your ISP DNS, edit resolv.conf to add
nameserver xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx options timeout:25
This will get your machine to wait up to 25 seconds for a response from the ISP DNS server and should hopefully make the problem go away, if I understood it right.
- -Andy
Brian Fahrlander wrote:
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so your client times out before the dns lookup completes.
Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server.
Well, if I had to get it twice to actually make it, sure...the funnything is, if I go there first with 'host' and find it, then use Firefox, it still doesn't. (Denying all reason that *I* know) Firefox just won't find it. That's what makes me think Firefox is involved. These are sites I've visited every day or so for years...and I've not changed the local /etc/resolv.conf or anything on my end for about as long.
How can this be?
I would start by looking at nscd. It's responsible for caching all sorts of info on the client and quite often gets itself very confused.
The 'host' command queries DNS directly without referring to nscd, whereas the resolver library will use nscd if its running. If your DNS server fails to resolve an entry this failure is cached by nscd (by default for 300s). So, a 'host' command might return a valid response whereas any attempt to contact it via the resolver/nscd would fail.
Next time this happens, try flushing the nscd hosts cache:
# nscd -i hosts
and try again.
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 07:14 -0400, Bob Chiodini wrote:
Do any other browsers have this problem?
Well, I've tried Galeon, but it wasn't for long...I might have to try something along those lines.
I haven't seen any of the IPv6 firefox issues mentioned lately, but have you turned off IPv6? IIRC firefox had issues timing out DNS lookups via IPv6, before trying IPv4.
add:
alias net-pf-10 off
To /etc/modprobe.conf, unfortunately you'll have to reboot to get it to take affect.
Unfortunately it's already there; I was hoping you'd have an answer; oh,well- the hunt goes on. :)
Thanks for your effort!
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 12:22 +0100, Andy Green wrote:
Your ISP DNS is likely going slow every now and again -- watch it with tcpdump and see what you see.
Whatever machine at your site talks to the ISP DNS server is often giving up on the query before the response is received. Then I guess it gives up and figures it's an NXDOMAIN. There's a thing called negative TTL for DNS, basically if it got a response of NXDOMAIN once, it will for a fixed time not bother to check again but immediately say NXDOMAIN to queries. I guess this is where your "it doesn't exist no matter what I do" period is coming from.
Then after the negative TTL is exhausted, it will check again with your ISP DNS, and depending on if your ISP DNS is fast enough or not, you either get through or have another period of negative TTL timeout.
Here's a suggestion: on the machine that talks to your ISP DNS, edit resolv.conf to add
nameserver xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx options timeout:25
This will get your machine to wait up to 25 seconds for a response from the ISP DNS server and should hopefully make the problem go away, if I understood it right.
Well, I'll keep this idea in mind; but usually when Firefox is problematic, the "can't get there" box comes up in about 1s...not as much/over 25s. But I appreciate the effort...
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 13:47 +0100, Nigel Wade wrote:
I would start by looking at nscd. It's responsible for caching all sorts of info on the client and quite often gets itself very confused.
The 'host' command queries DNS directly without referring to nscd, whereas the resolver library will use nscd if its running. If your DNS server fails to resolve an entry this failure is cached by nscd (by default for 300s). So, a 'host' command might return a valid response whereas any attempt to contact it via the resolver/nscd would fail.
Next time this happens, try flushing the nscd hosts cache:
# nscd -i hosts
and try again.
Bingo; that was the answer. I guess I have something new to read up on tonight!
Thank you so much!
What could be happenning is that your ISP is rotating his machines on DNS and sending your notifications through DHCP. But you have a static configuration for named so it is pointing at machines who for some reason don't have up to date data. You have to read the DHCP documentation in order for it updating your named config, and, very important, firewall config and then restarting both.
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 13:47 +0100, Nigel Wade wrote:
Brian Fahrlander wrote:
On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 14:43 -0700, Craig White wrote:
the fact that it doesn't find it the first time but does on subsequent tries suggest that you have some problem with the setup and latency so your client times out before the dns lookup completes.
Probably the best way to fix that is to fix your caching dns server.
Well, if I had to get it twice to actually make it, sure...the funnything is, if I go there first with 'host' and find it, then use Firefox, it still doesn't. (Denying all reason that *I* know) Firefox just won't find it. That's what makes me think Firefox is involved. These are sites I've visited every day or so for years...and I've not changed the local /etc/resolv.conf or anything on my end for about as long.
How can this be?I would start by looking at nscd. It's responsible for caching all sorts of info on the client and quite often gets itself very confused.
The 'host' command queries DNS directly without referring to nscd, whereas the resolver library will use nscd if its running. If your DNS server fails to resolve an entry this failure is cached by nscd (by default for 300s). So, a 'host' command might return a valid response whereas any attempt to contact it via the resolver/nscd would fail.
Next time this happens, try flushing the nscd hosts cache:
# nscd -i hosts
and try again.
-- Nigel Wade, System Administrator, Space Plasma Physics Group, University of Leicester, Leicester, LE1 7RH, UK E-mail : nmw@ion.le.ac.uk Phone : +44 (0)116 2523548, Fax : +44 (0)116 2523555
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 23:36 +0200, Jean Francois Martinez wrote:
What could be happenning is that your ISP is rotating his machines on DNS and sending your notifications through DHCP. But you have a static configuration for named so it is pointing at machines who for some reason don't have up to date data. You have to read the DHCP documentation in order for it updating your named config, and, very important, firewall config and then restarting both.
No, I'm on a static IP, and the problem was two different applications not sharing the same information- "host" could find it in a flash, but Firefox wouldn't...even immediately after it.
Thankfully, "ncsd -i host" on the command line nailed it.
Thanks, though!
Brian Fahrlander wrote:
On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 23:36 +0200, Jean Francois Martinez wrote:
What could be happenning is that your ISP is rotating his machines on DNS and sending your notifications through DHCP. But you have a static configuration for named so it is pointing at machines who for some reason don't have up to date data. You have to read the DHCP documentation in order for it updating your named config, and, very important, firewall config and then restarting both.
No, I'm on a static IP, and the problem was two differentapplications not sharing the same information- "host" could find it in a flash, but Firefox wouldn't...even immediately after it.
Thankfully, "ncsd -i host" on the command line nailed it. Thanks, though!
Given that nscd is the "problem", you can alter the time for which nscd caches failed DNS lookups. In /etc/nscd.conf change the timeout value in
negative-time-to-live hosts 300
to a smaller value than 300 seconds.
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Nigel Wade wrote:
| Given that nscd is the "problem", you can alter the time for which nscd | caches failed DNS lookups. In /etc/nscd.conf change the timeout value in | | negative-time-to-live hosts 300 | | to a smaller value than 300 seconds.
As I understand it the behaviour of ncsd is just a symptom of the "real" problem which is wrongful intermittent failed lookups, presumably due to a timed-out lookup. One might imagine it would be better to treat that disease than just try to minimize the pain by reducing the negative time to live?
- -Andy
Andy Green wrote:
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Nigel Wade wrote:
| Given that nscd is the "problem", you can alter the time for which nscd | caches failed DNS lookups. In /etc/nscd.conf change the timeout value in | | negative-time-to-live hosts 300 | | to a smaller value than 300 seconds.
As I understand it the behaviour of ncsd is just a symptom of the "real" problem which is wrongful intermittent failed lookups, presumably due to a timed-out lookup. One might imagine it would be better to treat that disease than just try to minimize the pain by reducing the negative time to live?
DNS timeouts are a fact of life, they are not "wrongful", you have to live with them. If your DNS server doesn't have an entry for the hostname you request (all entries have a fixed TTL), then it has to request it from its upstream server. This goes all the way up to a top level domain, and then back down to the authoritative server for the domain in question. If this takes longer than 30s (the ususal timeout for DNS lookup) then you get a failed lookup returned by your DNS server. You can't treat it, it isn't a "disease", it's part of the way DNS works.
The root of this particular problem is that nscd caches this failed lookup for you, DNS does not.
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Nigel Wade wrote:
| The root of this particular problem is that nscd caches this failed | lookup for you, DNS does not.
I respectfully disagree. I do not experience these "fact of life" timeouts and fake NXDOMAIN results; I use my ISP DNS cached on a separate machine here.
The DNS cache is behaving as designed, the problem seems to me to be the timeout is set too low for the behaviour of the original poster's upstream DNS, or put another way, the upstream DNS may be overloaded and not always responsive. I would do a
tcpdump port 53
(despite the name this gets UDP too) and look for SERVFAIL or slow response, and if seen, complain to whoever it is that I pay for the upstream DNS in the one case and in the other case add to /etc/resolv.conf
options timeout:xx
where xx is the timeout in seconds; my DNS cache machine has it set to 25. If you are hanging around for more than 25 seconds to get DNS that is not what I would call normal or a "fact of life".
- -Andy
Andy Green wrote:
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Nigel Wade wrote:
| The root of this particular problem is that nscd caches this failed | lookup for you, DNS does not.
I respectfully disagree. I do not experience these "fact of life" timeouts and fake NXDOMAIN results; I use my ISP DNS cached on a separate machine here.
The DNS cache is behaving as designed, the problem seems to me to be the timeout is set too low for the behaviour of the original poster's upstream DNS, or put another way, the upstream DNS may be overloaded and not always responsive. I would do a
tcpdump port 53
(despite the name this gets UDP too) and look for SERVFAIL or slow response, and if seen, complain to whoever it is that I pay for the upstream DNS in the one case and in the other case add to /etc/resolv.conf
options timeout:xx
where xx is the timeout in seconds; my DNS cache machine has it set to 25. If you are hanging around for more than 25 seconds to get DNS that is not what I would call normal or a "fact of life".
You can complain all you like to your ISP, but that won't help one jot if the authorititive server for the domain is down/overloaded etc. You will get timeouts, and nscd will cache that. A repeat request will get a failure even if the information is now available again, until the nscd negative-time-to-live is reached.
Like I said, it's nscd that's the problem, not DNS. If you cache DNS using a proper DNS server I expect you will be ok. If you rely on nscd then you will see this problem.
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Nigel Wade wrote:
| You can complain all you like to your ISP, but that won't help one jot | if the authorititive server for the domain is down/overloaded etc. You
Sure, both the way I describe (poor upstream DNS performance) and the way you describe (poor performance from the guy at the end of the DNS road for a particular query) can lead to the slow DNS response.
Hey Brian, can you give us an example domain that you experienced the problem with, and I guess that way we can see if it is the DNS for that domain that is struggling, or infer that it is your upstream DNS provider's server that is slow.
- -Andy
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Andy Green wrote:
| Hey Brian, can you give us an example domain that you experienced the | problem with, and I guess that way we can see if it is the DNS for that | domain that is struggling, or infer that it is your upstream DNS | provider's server that is slow.
I reviewed the thread and see the first post has some addresses.
I get the nameserver addresses from whois.
# dig @ns2.osdn.com hardware.slashdot.org
; <<>> DiG 9.2.5 <<>> @ns2.osdn.com hardware.slashdot.org ; (1 server found) ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 27430 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 5, ADDITIONAL: 5
;; QUESTION SECTION: ;hardware.slashdot.org. IN A
;; ANSWER SECTION: hardware.slashdot.org. 7200 IN A 66.35.250.151
;; AUTHORITY SECTION: slashdot.org. 7200 IN NS ns2.osdn.com. slashdot.org. 7200 IN NS ns2.vasoftware.com. slashdot.org. 7200 IN NS ns3.vasoftware.com. slashdot.org. 7200 IN NS ns1.osdn.com. slashdot.org. 7200 IN NS ns1.vasoftware.com.
;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.osdn.com. 7200 IN A 66.35.250.10 ns1.vasoftware.com. 72924 IN A 12.152.184.135 ns2.osdn.com. 7200 IN A 66.35.250.11 ns2.vasoftware.com. 72924 IN A 12.152.184.136 ns3.vasoftware.com. 72924 IN A 66.35.250.12
;; Query time: 164 msec ;; SERVER: 66.35.250.11#53(66.35.250.11) ;; WHEN: Thu Apr 7 12:12:41 2005 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 244
# dig @ns1.tmpw.net jobsearch.monster.com
; <<>> DiG 9.2.5 <<>> @ns1.tmpw.net jobsearch.monster.com ; (1 server found) ;; global options: printcmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4501 ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 2, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2
;; QUESTION SECTION: ;jobsearch.monster.com. IN A
;; ANSWER SECTION: jobsearch.monster.com. 600 IN A 63.112.169.3 jobsearch.monster.com. 600 IN A 63.121.29.3
;; AUTHORITY SECTION: monster.com. 4800 IN NS ns1.tmpw.net. monster.com. 4800 IN NS ns2.tmpw.net.
;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: ns1.tmpw.net. 3600 IN A 63.121.28.53 ns2.tmpw.net. 3600 IN A 63.112.168.53
;; Query time: 118 msec ;; SERVER: 63.121.28.53#53(63.121.28.53) ;; WHEN: Thu Apr 7 12:14:45 2005 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 147
After this somewhat unscientific and one-shot test I continue to suspect the problem is with the performance of his upstream DNS, or some communication problem that can lose packets including his DNS ones, since the servers are both responding in well below 200ms.
- -Andy
On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 12:03 +0100, Andy Green wrote:
Hey Brian, can you give us an example domain that you experienced the problem with, and I guess that way we can see if it is the DNS for that domain that is struggling, or infer that it is your upstream DNS provider's server that is slow.
Sure: hardware.slashdot.org, jobsearch.monster.com...there may have been others, but I don't recall'em. These are both sites I'd visit at least once a day, and 'host' called'em up, but Firefox didn't- that's what made it seem so weird. (And I'd completely forgotten that I'd turned on nscd....)
On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 06:21, Brian Fahrlander wrote:
Hey Brian, can you give us an example domain that you experienced the problem with, and I guess that way we can see if it is the DNS for that domain that is struggling, or infer that it is your upstream DNS provider's server that is slow.
Sure: hardware.slashdot.org, jobsearch.monster.com...there may havebeen others, but I don't recall'em. These are both sites I'd visit at least once a day, and 'host' called'em up, but Firefox didn't- that's what made it seem so weird. (And I'd completely forgotten that I'd turned on nscd....)
Does your /etc/resolv.conf contain more than one nameserver entry? If you are having trouble with failures, I'd try more entries even if you have to point them back at the same server to get another chance.
On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 11:21 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
Does your /etc/resolv.conf contain more than one nameserver entry? If you are having trouble with failures, I'd try more entries even if you have to point them back at the same server to get another chance.
The local machine (the one I'm on) points only to the DNS machine in /etc/resolv.conf. The DNS machine points to itself, and the DNS there is made aware of the root server changes, etc so it can find everything by itself.
I wonder; I'm not really clear on this 'forwarding' concept. Would this be the place for forwarding on my local machine, to this DNS machine?
On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 15:02, Brian Fahrlander wrote:
Does your /etc/resolv.conf contain more than one nameserver entry? If you are having trouble with failures, I'd try more entries even if you have to point them back at the same server to get another chance.
The local machine (the one I'm on) points only to the DNS machinein /etc/resolv.conf. The DNS machine points to itself, and the DNS there is made aware of the root server changes, etc so it can find everything by itself.
Where does the error occur? On your machine or the DNS machine? If it is your machine you could try adding more nameserver entries in /etc/resolv.conf even if you have to point them to the same DNS server.
I wonder; I'm not really clear on this 'forwarding' concept. Wouldthis be the place for forwarding on my local machine, to this DNS machine?
I'd try to fix the network problem first. DNS uses UDP, so if you are overloaded or dropping packets the answers can be dropped. You can work around it by doing more retries but you really should not be dropping the answers in the first place. You could run a DNS server on your own machine configured to use the local DNS server as a fowarder but unless you have a huge amount of traffic you should not need that.
On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 16:38 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
Where does the error occur? On your machine or the DNS machine? If it is your machine you could try adding more nameserver entries in /etc/resolv.conf even if you have to point them to the same DNS server.
You must not have heard; the error was a popup window from Firefox. "host" (or I suppose nslookup) could get the IP addresses, but for some reason Firefox would pop up an error, quickly, and be the problem. It doesn't look like any of the 'real' DNS stuff was ever a problem.
I'd try to fix the network problem first. DNS uses UDP, so if you are overloaded or dropping packets the answers can be dropped. You can work around it by doing more retries but you really should not be dropping the answers in the first place. You could run a DNS server on your own machine configured to use the local DNS server as a fowarder but unless you have a huge amount of traffic you should not need that.
Network problem? No, this problem went away when I messed with nscd, I don't think there was ever a network problem or DNS problem...
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Brian Fahrlander wrote: | On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 16:38 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote: | | |>Where does the error occur? On your machine or the DNS machine? If |>it is your machine you could try adding more nameserver entries in |>/etc/resolv.conf even if you have to point them to the same DNS server. | | | You must not have heard; the error was a popup window from Firefox. | "host" (or I suppose nslookup) could get the IP addresses, but for some | reason Firefox would pop up an error, quickly, and be the problem. It | doesn't look like any of the 'real' DNS stuff was ever a problem.
That's not what I understood from reading the thread. The situation is that the DNS cache is a more noticable "detector" of the problem, because it extends the lack of resolvability to 300s or whatever due to the "negative ttl" feature of the cache. But something ELSE caused the DNS cache to see a failure to resolve in the first place. The problem is highly unlikely to be local to the DNS cache itself I would imagine. ~ So....
| Network problem? No, this problem went away when I messed with | nscd, I don't think there was ever a network problem or DNS problem...
... the next guess is that you may have a systemic network packetloss issue. When the DNS request or response packet gets dropped and lost, then the DNS cache is provoked into "negative ttl" mode and will immediately tell you NXDOMAIN until the "negative ttl" is used up. So there's no mystery why firefox comes back immediately with the bad news, it's the DNS cache doing its job after it sees a failure to resolve a site. The mystery is how the DNS cache got the idea it couldn't resolve your site in the first place.
Why not try floodpinging your DNS server and see if you see any dots before your eyes. Dots represent lost packets somewhere along the line.
ping -f -i 0 -s 1490 192.168.0.1
Replace 192.168.0.1 with your DNS server IP.
- -Andy
-
Andy Green -
Bob Chiodini -
Brian Fahrlander -
Craig White -
Jean Francois Martinez -
Les Mikesell -
Nigel Wade