Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
This "feature" could drive crazy any user new to GNOME 3.0. I tried it from the LiveCD first and get caught like a mouse in a trap. Good for me I had Internet connection and found on google, ALT button changes Suspend to Shutdown. At least I had this option.
But again, since I was running it from the LiveCD I needed Restart instead. You see, Fedora boot loader was picking up and locking DVD drive after restarting system so fast, it was "mission impossible" to open a tray and to remove the CD. Since I could not figure out how to restart the system, I had to shut it down, then reached BIOS, disabled CD boot and only then I was able to remove that damn CD from a tray.
"Revolution" indeed.
On 05/26/2011 07:47 AM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
I haven't found a clear explanation but it seems to be designed around encouraging people to suspend. In any case, if you don't like this behaviour, I maintain a bunch of GNOME Shell Extensions in the Fedora repo (yum search gnome-shell-extensions -C) and one of them can help
# yum install gnome-shell-extensions-alternative-status-menu
Alt+F2, press r and enter to restart the shell. You should have a permanent power off item in the menu.
Rahul
Rahul Sundaram <metherid <at> gmail.com> writes:
# yum install gnome-shell-extensions-alternative-status-menu
Alt+F2, press r and enter to restart the shell. You should have a permanent power off item in the menu.
A heads up - this extension doesn't work when gnome-shell-3.0.2-1.fc15 from updates-testing is installed. It works again after downgrading to the stable gnome-shell-3.0.1-4.fc15. Bugzilla is unavailable right now but if necessary I'll file a bug later.
On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:55:30 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
In any case, if you don't like this behaviour, I maintain a bunch of GNOME Shell Extensions in the Fedora repo (yum search gnome-shell-extensions -C) and one of them can help
# yum install gnome-shell-extensions-alternative-status-menu
Alt+F2, press r and enter to restart the shell. You should have a permanent power off item in the menu.
Is there a way to do that with a live CD or DVD? Or a respin meant to resemble Gnome2?
I've just managed to produce a live CD that does boot (even though it never offered me the option to check the medium!). That's a start, but I'm sure I can get further with it if I can keep as many as feasible of the ways I orient myself, and take up the new stuff an item or two at a time. The straight install, such as it was, felt like being thrown into deep cold water to learn to swim.
There's space left on my CD; or (I presume) I could put that .iso onto a DVD and have literally space to burn -- if doing so doesn't require Alpha Double Plus Technoid skills ....
On Fri, Jun 03, 2011 at 19:02:28 +0000, BeartoothHOS beartooth@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:55:30 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Is there a way to do that with a live CD or DVD? Or a respin meant to resemble Gnome2?
Yes it's possible. You can add the desired packages to the kickstart file. You can also change some of the defaults for gnome by running stuff in the %post section.
Take a look at: /usr/share/spin-kickstarts/fedora-live-desktop.ks
On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 15:47:58 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Fri, Jun 03, 2011 at 19:02:28 +0000, BeartoothHOS beartooth@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:55:30 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
Is there a way to do that with a live CD or DVD? Or a respin meant to resemble Gnome2?
Yes it's possible. You can add the desired packages to the kickstart file. You can also change some of the defaults for gnome by running stuff in the %post section.
Take a look at: /usr/share/spin-kickstarts/fedora-live-desktop.ks
I'm afraid you're way over my head.
Fwiw, my present F14 doesn't have that file; and I have yet to discover how to get my F15 live CD to show me a terminal. (I have gotten into the live image help; maybe that'll tell me.)
Juan R. de Silva <juan.r.d.silva <at> gmail.com> writes:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=643457
To fix this in F15, install the gnome-shell-extensions-alternative-status-menu package. After you log out and back in, or reboot (not sure which), you'll have the "Power Off..." option in the User Menu without using the Alt key.
On Thu, 26 May 2011 02:26:18 +0000, Andre Robatino wrote:
Juan R. de Silva <juan.r.d.silva <at> gmail.com> writes:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
Thanks for the link. It was quite educational to glance.
IMHO a lot of talking about nothing. Just give users a choice and they would figure out what is right for them: Suspend, Restart, Logout, Shutdown. Isn't it that simple?
Looks like the most obstinate wing took it over in GNOME.
On 05/25/2011 10:51 PM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
On Thu, 26 May 2011 02:26:18 +0000, Andre Robatino wrote:
Juan R. de Silva <juan.r.d.silva <at> gmail.com> writes:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
Thanks for the link. It was quite educational to glance.
IMHO a lot of talking about nothing. Just give users a choice and they would figure out what is right for them: Suspend, Restart, Logout, Shutdown. Isn't it that simple?
Looks like the most obstinate wing took it over in GNOME.
Everyone I know is doing either (a) stick with F14 for 6 months and see if things improve by then .. or (b) try different DE (kde, lxde etc) ... or both of the above ...
Genes MailLists wrote:
Everyone I know is doing either (a) stick with F14 for 6 months and see if things improve by then .. or (b) try different DE (kde, lxde etc) ... or both of the above ...
I am currently sitting in KDE, wondering the very same thing: stick with it or go back to F14 and Gnome 2. I have been using Fedora + Gnome since 2004, so I am slightly in shock by this whole business.
What I missed the most in Gnome 3 are the gnome-panels. My first impression of KDE is that the panels aren't implemented as elegantly.
Gnome 3 looks very sleek, but looks ain't everything.
----- Colin Brace Amsterdam http://lim.nl
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Looks like the most obstinate wing took it over in GNOME.
The most obstinate wing has been driving GNOME for a very long time now. For a good laugh, just browse the gnome-devel archives.
These are the same fine folks who foisted spacial view on us by default. I'm still waiting to meet even a single person who prefers it. Whenever I help someone install Linux, that's the first thing that they want me to turn off.
-Alan
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Alan Evans ame.fedora@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:51 PM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Looks like the most obstinate wing took it over in GNOME.
The most obstinate wing has been driving GNOME for a very long time now. For a good laugh, just browse the gnome-devel archives.
These are the same fine folks who foisted spacial view on us by default. I'm still waiting to meet even a single person who prefers it. Whenever I help someone install Linux, that's the first thing that they want me to turn off.
Start with the Wine nOObs that are moving to Linux for 'security'. They want that Windows look and feel...
The good part is that those of us that don't want it, don't have to have it either.
James McKenzie
27.05.2011, 03:46, "James McKenzie" jjmckenzie51@gmail.com:
Start with the Wine nOObs that are moving to Linux for 'security'. They want that Windows look and feel...
The good part is that those of us that don't want it, don't have to have it either.
Completely agree, James, and I hope it would continue to be like this.
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 15:20, Alan Evans ame.fedora@gmail.com wrote:
The most obstinate wing has been driving GNOME for a very long time now. For a good laugh, just browse the gnome-devel archives.
I agree. I remember six years ago installing a Fedora derivative (Blag) and finding myself unable to do something as simple as changing the mouse cursor to a color one (bright red).
http://forums.blagblagblag.org/viewtopic.php?p=7569&sid=e7203939b88e3753...
The answer from other users was "I gave up".
15 years ago, in IBM OS/2 Warp, changing the mouse cursor was a drag-and-drop operation, just drag any .ico over the drop area of the mouse pointer tab in the mouse properties object, and that .ico became the cursor.
I´m curious if things have improved in Gnome 3, or changing the cursors is still a pain in the ass.
(Remembering my experiences with Blag, when I jumped over to Fedora 9, I didn´t bother to try to change the mouse cursors set).
FC
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:04 PM, Fernando Cassia fcassia@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 15:20, Alan Evans ame.fedora@gmail.com wrote:
The most obstinate wing has been driving GNOME for a very long time now. For a good laugh, just browse the gnome-devel archives.
15 years ago, in IBM OS/2 Warp, changing the mouse cursor was a drag-and-drop operation, just drag any .ico over the drop area of the mouse pointer tab in the mouse properties object, and that .ico became the cursor.
I remember those days. This would be a really 'neat' feature to have in any current OS/WM/Shell...
I´m curious if things have improved in Gnome 3, or changing the cursors is still a pain in the ass.
Don't know. I don't have an Intel based machine powerful enough to try this out. However, I may relegate my 'spare' Mac to being a Linux machine and see what happens. It is sitting on the shelf gathering dust now.
On 05/25/2011 07:17 PM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
Many of us who use Linux on their desktops leave them running 24/7, only rebooting for a kernel update. If that's what the Gnome devs are doing (as I do) they don't need to shutdown/restart on a regular basis, so of course, nobody else does either. Yes, I really do think they're that out of touch.
On Wed, 2011-05-25 at 20:13 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 05/25/2011 07:17 PM, Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
Many of us who use Linux on their desktops leave them running 24/7, only rebooting for a kernel update. If that's what the Gnome devs are doing (as I do) they don't need to shutdown/restart on a regular basis, so of course, nobody else does either. Yes, I really do think they're that out of touch.
And heaven forbid that you click "Reboot Later" after a kernel update and then later try to find the reboot option! :-)
-Chris
Hi.
I wonder why they didn't use hibernation instead of suspension. That would have caused less pain for the adherents of power saving.
On Thu, 26 May 2011 02:17:29 +0000 (UTC), JRDS wrote:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
If you log out, they are still available at the top right of the screen.
26.05.2011, 20:24, "Michael Schwendt" mschwendt@gmail.com:
If you log out, they are still available at the top right of the screen.
I find it perfect.
Switch on and off quickly with Suspend, and use Shutdown before going away for long (makes you want to save your work, close all other stuff and log out).
On 26 May 2011 13:19, Misha Shnurapet shnurapet@fedoraproject.org wrote:
26.05.2011, 20:24, "Michael Schwendt" mschwendt@gmail.com:
If you log out, they are still available at the top right of the screen.
I find it perfect.
Switch on and off quickly with Suspend, and use Shutdown before going away for long (makes you want to save your work, close all other stuff and log out).
If I want to shut my laptop down I don't want to wait while logging out and then shut it down. In fact, if I want to shut anything down I'd rather not wait while I log out. Fortunately the Alt menu is there, but I'm always surprised when Gnome claim to be trying to make things more intuitive and then hide basic functionality behind secret keystrokes or options that can only be changed through the configuration database. Will probably be going XFCE/LXDE soon unless I can find the time to summarise the mistakes Gnome3 seems to have made, there's a good idea in there but it's buried under bad choices and the usual Gnome resistance to customisation.
On 05/26/2011 09:59 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
Will probably be going XFCE/LXDE soon unless I can find the time to summarise the mistakes Gnome3 seems to have made, there's a good idea in there but it's buried under bad choices and the usual Gnome resistance to customisation.
Back when I first tried Gnome, around FC 6, it was easy to customize. As time passed, it got less and less easy. Now, from what I've read, it's pretty much a case of having One True Way to do everything, and that's the way the devs like to do it. It's either their way or the highway. Now I use XFCE, which is still easy to customize.
On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 10:05:43AM -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
On 05/26/2011 09:59 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
Will probably be going XFCE/LXDE soon unless I can find the time to summarise the mistakes Gnome3 seems to have made, there's a good idea in there but it's buried under bad choices and the usual Gnome resistance to customisation.
Back when I first tried Gnome, around FC 6, it was easy to customize. As time passed, it got less and less easy. Now, from what I've read, it's pretty much a case of having One True Way to do everything, and that's the way the devs like to do it. It's either their way or the highway. Now I use XFCE, which is still easy to customize.
yeah, and that's unfortunate. For example: someone had the great idea to remove all configurability from GDM so that as of F14 you can't change anything in it anymore.
Re F15, I spent about 5 minutes with a pre-beta LIVE CD of F15 with Gnome 3 and couldn't figure out for the life of me how one was supposed to DO anything with it. like, why would you take a perfectly good working system and hide everything that the user might want to do?
I subsequently installed the LXDE version on my old scanner system (no room near my computer desk for the scanner, so it's in a closet with its own system and a UPS and the cable modem and the router and the network switch and on and on). Not sure LXDE is my favorite either, it seems kind of minimal, but I'll stick with it for a while to see if I can learn to use it.
and drifting OT here,... and speaking of hiding features, I tried, just last week, the latest Meego release live-on-USB on my eeepc, just for grins. While I likely won't ever use meego instead of fedora on my netbook, I can see that it's actually pretty usable. Pretty much everything just worked OOTB. But they also hide the shutdown button... in fact I couldn't find one anywhere to click, but at least it traps the event if you press the power switch so it then gives you the choice to stop/sleep/hibernate the system.
26.05.2011, 11:17, "Juan R. de Silva" juan.r.d.silva@gmail.com:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
;)
In the power management settings (System Settings - Hardware - Power), you can set your computer to shut down when the Power button is pressed. That makes your computer behave just like any other gadget you may have.
On 26.05.2011 14:45, Misha Shnurapet wrote:
26.05.2011, 11:17, "Juan R. de Silva" juan.r.d.silva@gmail.com:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
;)
In the power management settings (System Settings - Hardware - Power), you can set your computer to shut down when the Power button is pressed. That makes your computer behave just like any other gadget you may have.
Ah! Perfect! Thanks! This really should be the default!
Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the Shutdown and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume people do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
What? You pull down the user menu, click "shutdown," and a box opens which offers suspend-restart-cancel-shutdown buttons. How hidden is that?
This "feature" could drive crazy any user new to GNOME 3.0. I tried it from the LiveCD first and get caught like a mouse in a trap. Good for me I had Internet connection and found on google, ALT button changes Suspend to Shutdown. At least I had this option.
But again, since I was running it from the LiveCD I needed Restart instead. You see, Fedora boot loader was picking up and locking DVD drive after restarting system so fast, it was "mission impossible" to open a tray and to remove the CD. Since I could not figure out how to restart the system, I had to shut it down, then reached BIOS, disabled CD boot and only then I was able to remove that damn CD from a tray.
"Revolution" indeed.
On Thu, 2011-05-26 at 20:06 -0400, Bill Davidsen wrote:
Juan R. de Silva wrote:
Could anybody explain it, why GNOME folks decided to hide the
Shutdown
and especially Restart buttons/options from a user so well? Is it especially dangerous to use them nowadays? Or GNOME folks assume
people
do not shutdown/restart their computers anymore?
What? You pull down the user menu, click "shutdown," and a box opens which offers suspend-restart-cancel-shutdown buttons. How hidden is that?
Huh? What non-standard modification are you running to get a "shutdown" selection on the user menu without hitting the Alt key? Out of the box, F15 does not have that behaviour.
-
Alan Evans -
Andre Robatino -
Beartooth -
Bill Davidsen -
Bruno Wolff III -
Chris Tyler -
Colin Brace -
Fernando Cassia -
Fred Smith -
Genes MailLists -
Harald Hoyer -
Ian Malone -
James McKenzie -
Joe Zeff -
John Mellor -
Juan R. de Silva -
Michael Schwendt -
Misha Shnurapet -
Rahul Sundaram