Re: Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2019-06-05 at 20:03 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> Voting is now open for the Fedora 30 election cycle. You can vote in
> the Elections app[1]. Interviews with candidates are available on the
> Fedora Community Blog[2], with links available in the Elections app.
> Voting ends at 23:59 UTC on 20 June.
>
> [1] https://elections.fedoraproject.org
> [2] https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/?p=7774
>
> --
> Ben Cotton
> He / Him / His
> Fedora Program Manager
> Red Hat
> TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis

I received the above via the Announce list on Friday June 21, after
voting had closed. I don't know if others have had the same experience,
but clearly something is amiss.

This is the complete message with all headers:

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From: Ben Cotton 
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 20:03:34 -0400
Message-ID: 
Subject: Fedora 30 voting is now open
To: [e-mail],
 [e-mail], [e-mail],
 Discussions with the Fedora Council and community
 
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Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Ed Greshko]

On 6/22/19 3:11 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> I received the above via the Announce list on Friday June 21, after
> voting had closed. I don't know if others have had the same experience,
> but clearly something is amiss.

No problems here.  Actually got 3 message on announce.  Time received is in GMT+8.

6/6/19, 8:03 AM   Voting Open
6/12/19, 12:15 AM  Re: Voting Open   (body indicated 2 more days to vote)
6/20/19, 4:55 AM  Re: Voting Open  (body indicated final reminder)

All 3 were received moments after being sent.

In the case of the first message sent, this is the part that is OK for me but not for you.

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Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Ed Greshko]

On 6/22/19 11:58 AM, Tim via users wrote:

??????
> users mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Ed Greshko]

On 6/22/19 9:35 AM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> No problems here.

Oh, just got an email from Tim  saying he had the same
issues as POC.

But, of course, I can't respond as the email is "ignored".  So, I'm putting it out here in
case Tim doesn't notice the mistake.

Tim said:

"But I'd encountered the same thing as POC.?? A seriously delayed message about voting,
and three followups by the original poster that were also delayed.?? My headers showed
that was delayed by Fedora mailing system until the 21st. "

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Tim]

On 22/6/19 6:22 pm, Ed Greshko wrote:
> But, of course, I can't respond as the email is "ignored".?? So, I'm 
> putting it out here in
> case Tim doesn't notice the mistake.

Oops, sorry, didn't mean to send that privately.?? I'm used to mailing 
lists where hitting reply sends the reply back where it's expected to 
go, for some dumb reason the mail client ignored the reply-to header.?? 
They're supposed to obey that instruction absolutely unless YOU override 
it, which I didn't.?? Sodding nerks who want to redesign email in yet 
another broken way.

I'm not having the best run of luck with emails today.

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 09:35 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> On 6/22/19 3:11 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > I received the above via the Announce list on Friday June 21, after
> > voting had closed. I don't know if others have had the same experience,
> > but clearly something is amiss.
>
> No problems here.  Actually got 3 message on announce.  Time received is in GMT+8.

I also got three messages, but only quoted the first one. All three
were delivered on June 21 within seconds of each other. I'm assuming
it's a problem with the mailing list software, but it should be looked
at. I CC'ed the sender but haven't heard anything back from him as
yet.

If this happened to a significant number of people it could potentially
invalidate the election. Having worked on election systems in the past,
I would consider this a serious bug.

poc

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Ed Greshko]

On 6/22/19 7:37 PM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 09:35 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > On 6/22/19 3:11 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > I received the above via the Announce list on Friday June 21, after
> > > voting had closed. I don't know if others have had the same experience,
> > > but clearly something is amiss.
> >
> > No problems here.  Actually got 3 message on announce.  Time received is in GMT+8.
>
> I also got three messages, but only quoted the first one. All three
> were delivered on June 21 within seconds of each other. I'm assuming
> it's a problem with the mailing list software, but it should be looked
> at. I CC'ed the sender but haven't heard anything back from him as
> yet.
>
> If this happened to a significant number of people it could potentially
> invalidate the election. Having worked on election systems in the past,
> I would consider this a serious bug.

Maybe contact someone on the Infrastructure Team and ask them to check the logs?

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Erik P. Olsen]

On 2019-06-22 at 12:37:38 Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 09:35 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
> > On 6/22/19 3:11 AM, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > > I received the above via the Announce list on Friday June 21, after
> > > voting had closed. I don't know if others have had the same experience,
> > > but clearly something is amiss.
> >
> > No problems here.  Actually got 3 message on announce.  Time received is in GMT+8.
>
> I also got three messages, but only quoted the first one. All three
> were delivered on June 21 within seconds of each other. I'm assuming
> it's a problem with the mailing list software, but it should be looked
> at. I CC'ed the sender but haven't heard anything back from him as
> yet.
>
> If this happened to a significant number of people it could potentially
> invalidate the election. Having worked on election systems in the past,
> I would consider this a serious bug.
>
> poc
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
> List Archives:
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/[e-mail]

Same happened to me.

--
Regards,
Erik P. Olsen

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Kevin Fenzi]

What happened is unfortunate, but simple to explain:

The announce list is moderated for all posts, so every post needs to be
approved before it is sent out.

The Fedora Program Manager (Ben Cotton) Sent those emails out at various
times and they waited in the moderation queue for approval.

I usually approve those posts, but for some reason mailman did not send
me the normal 'post waiting for moderation', or if it did, I didn't see
it as I was on vacation, then traveling to meetings. Others who also
approve those must not have seen them either as no one did.

So, when I noticed them I approved them all, but as you note they then
showed up all in a bunch.

In order to prevent this from happening again, I've made Ben a list
moderator so he can approve posts and we will be looking to see why the
moderation emails didn't go out.

Sorry for the confusion.

kevin

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 12:46 -0700, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> What happened is unfortunate, but simple to explain:
>
> The announce list is moderated for all posts, so every post needs to be
> approved before it is sent out.
>
> The Fedora Program Manager (Ben Cotton) Sent those emails out at various
> times and they waited in the moderation queue for approval.
>
> I usually approve those posts, but for some reason mailman did not send
> me the normal 'post waiting for moderation', or if it did, I didn't see
> it as I was on vacation, then traveling to meetings. Others who also
> approve those must not have seen them either as no one did.
>
> So, when I noticed them I approved them all, but as you note they then
> showed up all in a bunch.
>
> In order to prevent this from happening again, I've made Ben a list
> moderator so he can approve posts and we will be looking to see why the
> moderation emails didn't go out.
>
> Sorry for the confusion.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you have any sense of how this may
have affected voting numbers compared to previous years?

poc

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Ben Cotton]

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 4:56 AM Patrick O'Callaghan
 wrote:
> Thanks for the clarification. Do you have any sense of how this may
> have affected voting numbers compared to previous years?

The impact seems to be fairly small, if it exists at all. The number
of voters for F30 was down a little bit from F29, but there were also
fewer candidates (the Council election, in particular, was
uncontested). Regular announcements and reminders were sent on the
council-discuss, devel/devel-announce, and mindshare mailing lists,
and the Community Blog post was "sticky" for the duration of the
voting period. I suspect — though I have no way of confirming — that
the number of people who would vote and only subscribe to the announce
list is relatively small. Of course, that doesn't mean they shouldn't
have the opportunity to vote. As Kevin said, we've taken steps to
prevent this from happening in future elections.

I encourage everyone who has in an interest in the internal workings
of the community to follow the Community Blog[1]. In addition to
announcements of elections, we also publish proposed changes to
council policies, technical and process posts from teams and
contributors, and a weekly summary of change proposals/schedule/etc.
The Community Blog is a low traffic (generally 1 or fewer posts per
day) way to keep up with Fedora. If you have feedback on the Community
Blog, we'd be happy to hear from you on Discussion[2].

As a long-time Fedora contributor, I understand how important the
elections are to making sure the community is well-represented. If you
ever have questions or concerns, I'm happy to discuss them with you
on- or off-list, or in the weekly FPgM office hours on IRC[3].

[1] https://communityblog.fedoraproject.org/
[2] https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tags/c/project/commops/commblog
[3] https://apps.fedoraproject.org/calendar/council/#m9527

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Tim]

On Mon, 2019-06-24 at 11:53 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> I suspect ??? though I have no way of confirming ??? that the number of
> people who would vote and only subscribe to the announce list is
> relatively small. Of course, that doesn't mean they shouldn't
> have the opportunity to vote.

Simple test:  Use the announce list to ask people to respond if they
missed out on voting because they didn't see an announcement list
email.

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Mon, 2019-06-24 at 11:53 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> Regular announcements and reminders were sent on the
> council-discuss, devel/devel-announce, and mindshare mailing lists,
> and the Community Blog post was "sticky" for the duration of the
> voting period. I suspect — though I have no way of confirming — that
> the number of people who would vote and only subscribe to the announce
> list is relatively small.

The only one of those lists I subscribe to is Announce and I don't
generally read blogs. I do subscribe to the Fedora Users list, which I
would guess probably has more traffic than all of those combined. I
don't know if posting election announcements on the Users list is
against list policy, though I'd suspect it isn't, but you may want to
consider doing so in future, even if to a limited extent.

poc

Fedora 30 voting is now open

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Tue, 2019-06-25 at 06:58 +0930, Tim via users wrote:
> On Mon, 2019-06-24 at 11:53 -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> > I suspect ??? though I have no way of confirming ??? that the number of
> > people who would vote and only subscribe to the announce list is
> > relatively small. Of course, that doesn't mean they shouldn't
> > have the opportunity to vote.
>
> Simple test:  Use the announce list to ask people to respond if they
> missed out on voting because they didn't see an announcement list
> email.

+1

(assuming the Announce list is now working correctly of course :-)

poc