5:26 p.m.
On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
you are completely irrelevant... not that I have any ability to
change
that and I surely respect your right, as a Fedora user to post on the
list.
In the future, would you please mark your irrelevant rantings as OT (off
topic)?
You really don't want to know what I think when I read this.
Craig
The section that you posted was a little out of line, Craig, granted.
However. Your response is also indicative of the exact problem he's referring
to!
The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have
been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
didn't *matter*.
For example, pulseaudio. It was introduced in a state that was pretty much
unusable for me. Sound only started working when I turned it off. I filed a
bug report. I supplied all the info requested. As I remember, might as well
have been a black hole. Someone insisted it wasn't even a bug. I responded,
yes, it was. They said I didn't put it in the right place. I responded, then
move it to the right place instead of closing it. Someone said "yeah, you're
probably right, but too bad." Bug closed. Got fixed on its own accord at some
point in the future. Until then I just disabled pulseaudio.
What about selinux? At the SCALE conference, Karsten Wade gave the keynote
and acknowledged that selinux was handled badly, and also acknowledged that it
was a huge PR problem - people are still reflexively turning it off because of
the damage the Fedora project did to its reputation. I can't even turn it on
at my workplace because no one trusts it - and FEDORA did that! Fedora, and
Red Hat.
And it's not getting any better, at least from my experience.
We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the attitude
that says we are is the *problem*.
--Russell
2:38 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 8:22 PM, Wayne Feick <waf(a)brunz.org> wrote:
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to
Thunderbird.
I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for
the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was
calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the
promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying
2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since
it grows over time.
I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.
When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks.
Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar
and I'm not looking back.
Just to chime in here - I had abandoned Evo too some years ago but I
was recently trying various mail clients again to see how things have
changed. I set up Evo in F12 to deal with my work mail (Imap) and
although not particularly fast when first starting Evo it works ok -
other things that are positive too are that it handles encrypted mail
correctly (with GPG) without needing an extension like Thunderbird
does. It also connects to gmail calendars with the caldav protocol
just fine which is another feature I really wanted.
I am using Thunderbird 3.1b2 nightly and there are issues with the
enigmail extension but it also does have lightning to handle
calendars, using caldav. It also handles html mail and although some
people are very much against the use of html in email it does have its
uses particularly in business areas. Fedora runs releases that are
somewhat behind the nightlies but I do use Thunderbird -
I guess there is no ideal mail client!
--
mike c
4:10 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
Tim:
>> But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a
filter such as
>> this:
>>
>> reply-to contains users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>> move to folder lists/fedora
>> stop processing
& Tim:
> Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4
seconds
> to go through. That's tediously slow.
jdow:
What "filter" are you running? What possessed you to run it
inside
an email client? (What possessed Fedora to commit that atrocity?)
Exactly the sort of filtering rule that I outlined above (one matching
rule, one action).
I'm on several mailing lists, and for many many years before running
Linux, I would simply get my mail client to sort incoming mail into
folders for each list, like that. None of them had any problems doing
such a thing, and neither should Evolution.
If you are running SpamAssassin as a filter
Definitely not, and I've explicitly said I don't do that. And I agree
that you want it done elsewhere, if you're going to do it. Preferably
at the first mail server that handles your mail (which really would be
the ISP, but so few ISPs give you good configuration options if you do
that).
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
5:13 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
From: "Tim" <ignored_mailbox(a)yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, 2010/April/22 09:35
On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 00:34 +0930, Tim wrote:
> You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way?
Scratch that, I found it moments later (after missing the obvious).
> But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as
> this:
>
> reply-to contains users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> move to folder lists/fedora
> stop processing
Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4 seconds
to go through. That's tediously slow.
Compare it to "The Bat!" that I used to use with Windows, years ago,
each message zipped through. Imagine bending over a deck of cards until
they flip over, flapping between your fingers. You could hear the hard
drive kerchunking, like that, as each message passed through.
I've, now, spent an hour filtering messages on Evolution that would have
taken seconds on another client (with years old software, and a much
slower PC).
What "filter" are you running? What possessed you to run it inside
an email client? (What possessed Fedora to commit that atrocity?)
If you are running SpamAssassin as a filter you want to run it at the
time you "fetchmail" messages from your ISP and have the filtered and
tagged results placed in your local Dovecot mailspool. You get a small
lag on messages sent to you before they can be read. But you see no
long delays as you start your email client and roll through your
messages reading and discarding.
{^_^} (VERY long time SpamAssassin admin for two people and "many"
email addresses.)
5:11 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 10:03 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
One thing I have seen it do, however, is get its caches confused and
refuse to show new mail.
I have never seen that in many years of using Evolution.
On the calendaring side, on a number of occasions the Palm sync got
messed up and duplicated all of my calendar events. For a while, each
time I sync'd it would double the duplicates, causing 1, then 2, then 4,
then 8 copies of each event. That was a royal pain to undo.
I have definitely seen this. It is so bad that I cannot use my Linux box
as my primary base for my Palm. I have only gotten syncing to work
reliably if I do it only in one direction, so I use a Windows VM as the
master, and sync the Palm onto Linux one way ("Copy from PDA"). This one
is REALLY annoying and it has been there through several Fedora
releases.
However, I doubt if this is an Evolution bug, it is more likely a bug in
gpilotd or lower level pilot-link stuff, which means any other high
level user interface program that uses the same lower level backing
software will probably exhibit the same thing.
--Greg
12:03 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On 04/22/2010 08:44 AM, Linuxguy123 wrote:
I've been using Evolution as my only email client since 2002.
I agree that it has a number of shortcomings.
Its been an up and down road for sure but one thing that I can say is
that I have not lost a single email in the 8 years I have been using
it.
I think this relates to the fact that Evo using plain text files to
store emails. Prior to Evo, Outlook used to lose my emails and crash on
a regular basis.
I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've been
looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ?
I keep all my mail on servers, so I guess I really haven't given
evolution a chance to lose it.
One thing I have seen it do, however, is get its caches confused and
refuse to show new mail. This happened just this last week where mail
that was delivered to my mailbox last Friday morning didn't show up in
the reader until Tuesday afternoon. The logs show it was delivered to
the mailbox, but for some reason evolution wouldn't show it despite
showing all sorts of other new mail that arrived over the weekend. I've
hit this a number of times, and the work around was to delete all the
disk caches and let them rebuild. Of course, you have to realize that
some emails are not being shown to you before you know enough to restart.
On the calendaring side, on a number of occasions the Palm sync got
messed up and duplicated all of my calendar events. For a while, each
time I sync'd it would double the duplicates, causing 1, then 2, then 4,
then 8 copies of each event. That was a royal pain to undo.
11:36 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 09:44 -0600, Linuxguy123 wrote:
I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've
been
looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ?
There's blue, and yellow, and green, and red, and orange...
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
11:35 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 00:34 +0930, Tim wrote:
You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way?
Scratch that, I found it moments later (after missing the obvious).
But, I can't see what could possibly be wrong with a filter such
as
this:
reply-to contains users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
move to folder lists/fedora
stop processing
Looking at the log, each filtered message takes at least 3 to 4 seconds
to go through. That's tediously slow.
Compare it to "The Bat!" that I used to use with Windows, years ago,
each message zipped through. Imagine bending over a deck of cards until
they flip over, flapping between your fingers. You could hear the hard
drive kerchunking, like that, as each message passed through.
I've, now, spent an hour filtering messages on Evolution that would have
taken seconds on another client (with years old software, and a much
slower PC).
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
10:44 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence (Evolution comments)
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to
Thunderbird.
I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for
the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was
calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the
promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying
2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since
it grows over time.
I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.
When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks.
Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar
and I'm not looking back.
Wayne.
I've been using Evolution as my only email client since 2002.
I agree that it has a number of shortcomings.
Its been an up and down road for sure but one thing that I can say is
that I have not lost a single email in the 8 years I have been using
it.
I think this relates to the fact that Evo using plain text files to
store emails. Prior to Evo, Outlook used to lose my emails and crash on
a regular basis.
I really wish that someone would inject some life into Evo. I've been
looking at a gray Evo screen for 8 years. How about a little color ?
10:04 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
Tim:
> Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up
about four
> filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages
> from my inbox to a folder, every now and then.
Patrick O'Callaghan:
I have a whole bunch of filters and don't even notice the time
lag.
Note that you can log filter actions to see what Evo is doing (this
requires editing a Gconf flag but it's not hard). Obviously the
complexity of the filters can play a part, e.g. if they have to do
LDAP lookups against a slow server then you're asking for trouble.
You don't happen to know what the flag is, by the way? But, I can't see
what could possibly be wrong with a filter such as this:
reply-to contains users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
move to folder lists/fedora
stop processing
That, and several filters just the same, being set up on the inbox,
working with an IMAP server on the LAN. There's nothing complex about
any of them. And it doesn't seem to matter if I change it to filter on
the "to" address, for example.
I suspect it's down to Evolution not being able to walk and chew gum at
the same time.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
7:40 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 18:51 +0930, Tim wrote:
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:27 -0400, fred smith wrote:
> Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years and
> always ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It
> seems to want to index all the mail folders every time it starts and
> that can take MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like
> molasses climbing a hill in January in northern canada.
I can't say I notice it trying to index everything when firing up.
Though I haven't got it set to check all folders, nor do spam checking,
nor do filtering.
Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up about four
filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages
from my inbox to a folder, every now and then.
I have a whole bunch of filters and don't even notice the time lag. Note
that you can log filter actions to see what Evo is doing (this requires
editing a Gconf flag but it's not hard). Obviously the complexity of the
filters can play a part, e.g. if they have to do LDAP lookups against a
slow server then you're asking for trouble.
It's also rather bad at doing two things at once. Such as
deleting a
message, then trying to read another one. It won't open the next one
until the deletion has completely finished what it's up to.
True. As I said in an earlier reply, the hope is that changing Bonobo
for D-Bus will help a lot.
But, despite the problems, it's still the least worst GUI client
available to me, out of those I've tried. That's hardly a good
recommendation, though.
Agreed. Every so often I get mad at Evo and switch to TBird for half an
hour or so, then switch back. I've also tried Claws for a few days and
didn't like it much (it didn't support correct IMAP deletion at the
time, maybe that's changed), but that's more a question of what you're
used to.
poc
5:30 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 18:46 +0930, Tim wrote:
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 00:53 +0200, birger wrote:
> I tried it years ago, and it was very unstable with severe memory
> leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a few days it would slow down
> my pc to a crawl.
Just curious. Do you keep the Evolution program window running all the
time, or do you exit the program when doing reading?
Exit my email client? Are you out of your mind? ;-) It's always up and
running, usually on at least 2 PC's simultaneously.
Since evolution-mapi is far from being usable for me yet, I run outlook
from citrix, so that one I shut down every day. Evolution is up while
the laptop suspends and wakes up between different subnets each day.
birger
4:16 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 00:53 +0200, birger wrote:
I tried it years ago, and it was very unstable with severe memory
leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a few days it would slow down
my pc to a crawl.
Just curious. Do you keep the Evolution program window running all the
time, or do you exit the program when doing reading?
I haven't noticed Evolution romp through my memory, even on PCs that run
nearly continuously. But, I exit the program after reading my mail, and
restart it the next time I want to read mail.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
4:21 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 15:27 -0400, fred smith wrote:
Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years
and
always ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It
seems to want to index all the mail folders every time it starts and
that can take MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like
molasses climbing a hill in January in northern canada.
I can't say I notice it trying to index everything when firing up.
Though I haven't got it set to check all folders, nor do spam checking,
nor do filtering.
Filtering is dead slow, that's for sure. After setting up about four
filters, it gets really painful. So I just drag a bunch of messages
from my inbox to a folder, every now and then.
It's also rather bad at doing two things at once. Such as deleting a
message, then trying to read another one. It won't open the next one
until the deletion has completely finished what it's up to.
But, despite the problems, it's still the least worst GUI client
available to me, out of those I've tried. That's hardly a good
recommendation, though.
--
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -r
2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored. I
read messages from the public lists.
5:53 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:38 +0100, mike cloaked wrote:
Just to chime in here - I had abandoned Evo too some years ago but I
was recently trying various mail clients again to see how things have
changed.
That is how it was for me as well. I tried it years ago, and it was very
unstable with severe memory leaks so if I managed to keep it up for a
few days it would slow down my pc to a crawl.
A while back I decided to give it a new try after having been a
thunderbird enthusiast for years.
For my IMAP accounts it seems to be very stable and fast. So good that I
have actually switched to evolution on all of my systems.
For MAPI/exchange accounts it keeps getting better, but there are lots
of issues. I keep testing it whenever I have time to do a little bug
reporting, and my bugs actually keep getting picked up and worked on.
birger
5:40 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI
freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread.
The Evo devels say this is caused by limitations of the underlying
Bonobo IPC model. Since Bonobo has now been replaced by D-Bus in the
newest Evo release (2.30, out now and in F13) we can hope for
improvements in these areas in the short term.
poc
3:45 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 12:22 -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird.
Please note here that I am not attempting to deny that any of the
problems you are having are real. I am just providing another data
point.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups.
I use an LDAP server and I have never seen this happen. I have been
using Evolution as my e-mail client since it became the default in
Fedora (at least 4 or 5 releases ago I think).
I do use the Palm sync capabilities; that seems to mostly work well as
long as I only sync in one direction. As soon as I try syncing both
ways, I end up with duplicated tasks, memos, and contacts that are a
real pain to remove. I expect this happens in the lower level gpilot
software rather than in Evolution itself, but I don't know that.
I don't connect to any other calendar servers with Evolution, nor do I
have any need to connect to Exchange, nor have I ever filed a bug
against Evolution, so I cannot comment on those.
I have not noticed Evolution trying to index everything on startup, but
I have heard complaints about Thunderbird 3 doing this.
I think Evolution has definitely gotten better since I started using it.
I used to see it crash suddenly. I still have that happen but only once
in a great while now. It used to have issues with it continuing to show
me that there were messages in a folder when in fact it was empty. This
too has been largely fixed in my experience.
But in the end, it's always "use whatever works for you".
--Greg
2:27 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 12:22:15PM -0700, Wayne Feick wrote:
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to
Thunderbird.
I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for
the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was
calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the
promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying
2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since
it grows over time.
I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.
When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks.
Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar
and I'm not looking back.
Wayne.
Yeah, I've tried Evolution 2 or 3 times over the last few years and always
ended up being disappointed. For one thing it's DOG SLOW. It seems to want
to index all the mail folders every time it starts and that can take
MINUTES. and even when past that it's still like molasses climbing a hill
in January in northern canada.
On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
>>>
>>
>>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly
have
>>> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
>>> didn't *matter*.
>>>
>> ----
>> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting.
>>
>> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and
>> it just got picked up today...
>>
>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193
>>
>> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in
>> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad.
>>
>> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way.
>>
>>
> Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux
> kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a
> lifetime job.
>
>
--
users mailing list
users(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
--
---- Fred Smith -- fredex(a)fcshome.stoneham.ma.us -----------------------------
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this:
While we were still sinners,
Christ died for us.
------------------------------- Romans 5:8 (niv) ------------------------------
2:28 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On 04/21/2010 12:22 PM, Wayne Feick wrote:
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to
Thunderbird.
I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for
the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was
calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the
promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying
2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since
it grows over time.
I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.
When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks.
Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar
and I'm not looking back.
Wayne.
On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> Craig White wrote:
>
>
>> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly
have
>>> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
>>> didn't *matter*.
>>>
>>>
>> ----
>> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting.
>>
>> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and
>> it just got picked up today...
>>
>> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193
>>
>> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in
>> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad.
>>
>> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way.
>>
>>
>>
> Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux
> kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a
> lifetime job.
>
>
>
I know what you mean there.
I gave up on evolution on day 2 of my Fedora install.
Thunderbird is buggy but what isn't
I have been jpilot for me palm device, seems to work well enough
Have a great day
Michael
2:22 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
I've finally given up on Evolution and moved back to Thunderbird.
I really wanted Evolution to be a good mail and calendar client, but for
the last 5 years or so it's always been *almost* there. It was
calendaring and Palm sync that kept me on it for a long time, and the
promise that proper Exchange connectivity was coming.
Using an LDAP server consistently causes lockups. The whole UI freezes
up for extended periods of time. God knows what they're doing, but
apparently they never learned to separate blocking operations like
network communication from the UI thread. It often ends up occupying
2.5G of resident memory which I can only assume is a memory leak since
it grows over time.
I've reported bugs over the years, and they seem to fall on deaf ears.
When they do manage to fix something, invariably something else breaks.
Now that I've moved to a Droid, I've switched over to Google's calendar
and I'm not looking back.
Wayne.
On 03/22/2010 01:56 PM, Bill Davidsen wrote:
Craig White wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>
>> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
>>
>
>> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have
>> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
>> didn't *matter*.
>>
> ----
> would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting.
>
> I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and
> it just got picked up today...
>
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193
>
> Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in
> the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad.
>
> Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way.
>
>
Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux
kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a
lifetime job.
3:56 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
Craig White wrote:
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
> On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
> The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine certainly have
> been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
> didn't *matter*.
----
would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting.
I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and
it just got picked up today...
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193
Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in
the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad.
Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way.
Seamonkey 2.0.1 fixed a bug I reported in about 1995 or so. Unlike the Linux
kernel there's no easy way to put patches out, so fixing a bug becomes a
lifetime job.
--
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com>
"We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked." - from Slashdot
1:19 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
The users and bug reports are, by and large, irrelevant. Mine
certainly have
been. As I said, sometimes I did not give enough info, but it also really
didn't *matter*.
----
would like to relate something very funny about bug reporting.
I reported a bug to Ximian (gnome-evolution) more than 5 years ago and
it just got picked up today...
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271193
Of course I had completely forgotten about this bug report I made and in
the spirit of better late than never, I suppose I am glad.
Bug reports are not always irrelevant but sometimes it seems that way.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
4:30 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sun, 2010-03-14 at 15:31 -0400, Marcel Rieux wrote:
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Matthew Saltzman
<mjs(a)clemson.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com>
wrote:
>> > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>> >>
>> >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
>> >> attitude
>> >> that says we are is the *problem*.
>> > ----
>> > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant.
>>
>> Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush
>> diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat
>> is on NASDAQ.
>
> No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE.
>
> http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html
Thanks for the info. Ihad noticed that teh ticker name had changed
from RHAATto RHT but not that RHhad switched to the NYSE:that's not
where your eyes go on the page at finance.yahoo.com.
I don't understand this paragraph, though:
"In addition, businesses must now expense their stock options. Thus,
if you can better estimate the value of your stock options, you can
lower your option expenses. While options aren't as significant a
factor as they were in the dot com days in most companies' bottom
lines, they still are no small matter in determining many technology
companies' bottom lines"
I thought that stock options were no expense for companies, that they
only had to print them and give them away... thus diluting the
investors' actions value, of course. OTOH, anf that's the good part,
since they count as expense for accounting, they reduce the profits,
hence taxes.
So, I don't understand.
Well, that's now *really* OT for this list. Suffice it to say that tax
laws are highly fluid from year to year, and you should consult a tax
lawyer if you have questions that affect your own returns.
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
2:31 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:14 AM, Matthew Saltzman <mjs(a)clemson.edu> wrote:
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
> >>
> >> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
> >> attitude
> >> that says we are is the *problem*.
> > ----
> > #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant.
>
> Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush
> diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat
> is on NASDAQ.
No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE.
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html
Thanks for the info. I had noticed that teh ticker name had changed
from RHAAT to RHT but not that RH had switched to the NYSE: that's not
where your eyes go on the page at finance.yahoo.com.
I don't understand this paragraph, though:
"In addition, businesses must now expense their stock options. Thus,
if you can better estimate the value of your stock options, you can
lower your option expenses. While options aren't as significant a
factor as they were in the dot com days in most companies' bottom
lines, they still are no small matter in determining many technology
companies' bottom lines"
I thought that stock options were no expense for companies, that they
only had to print them and give them away... thus diluting the
investors' actions value, of course. OTOH, anf that's the good part,
since they count as expense for accounting, they reduce the profits,
hence taxes.
So, I don't understand.
9:14 a.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 23:56 -0500, Marcel Rieux wrote:
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White
<craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>>
>> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
>> attitude
>> that says we are is the *problem*.
> ----
> #1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant.
Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush
diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat
is on NASDAQ.
No, they started on NASDAQ, but now (as of 12/12/06) they are on NYSE.
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS4955650991.html
--
Matthew Saltzman
Clemson University Math Sciences
mjs AT clemson DOT edu
http://www.math.clemson.edu/~mjs
10:56 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com> wrote:
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
>
> We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
> attitude
> that says we are is the *problem*.
----
#1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant.
Before this becomes another occasion for a beat around the bush
diffrential discussion, I would like to correct what I wrote. Red Hat
is on NASDAQ.
5:47 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, 2010-03-13 at 15:26 -0800, Russell Miller wrote:
We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
attitude
that says we are is the *problem*.
----
#1 - mentioning Red Hat or the NYSE on a Fedora list is irrelevant.
#2 - this is a community based distribution and the software, packaging,
etc. is done by people who volunteer and the few people who are paid but
they cannot do it all. Most of the software is actually developed by
others, not related to Fedora, Red Hat or affiliated in any way.
#3 - If your expectation is to get mature, supported software, that is
what Red Hat Enterprise Linux (and there are others out there) is all
about. Fedora clearly is 'leading edge' and not mature, not supported
and not sold.
Relevance is lending a hand to make things better. Bug reporting,
submitting better documentation, helping others solve problems. I'm
sorry that you had problems submitting bug reports but I can see that a
typical user will have difficulty identifying which software is the
problem and how to make a bug report but try reporting a bug to Apple or
Microsoft or any other software company and tell me how well you make
out. The fact is that open source software actually permits the users
entry/access to the process and problem resolution paths but cannot
ensure that the user actually understands his role.
There are people who light candles and people who curse the darkness.
Marcel is like a broken record - rehashing the same things he groused
about last week as if yet another 2000 words on the same topics is going
to be any less of a waste of electrons this week. But I didn't say that
he was irrelevant or that everything he said was irrelevant. His rants
are irrelevant.
Yes, Fedora is imperfect... it's also an imperfect world. If he or
anyone else needs help with a specific issue, they are almost always
handled expeditiously. But if he or someone else wants to draw big
picture issues, they should at least understand something about open
source development, software packaging, the origins, the process, etc.
Otherwise, they are irrelevant.
Craig
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
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11:21 p.m.
New subject: [OT] Deafening silence
On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Russell Miller <duskglow(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday 13 March 2010 02:58:48 pm Craig White wrote:
What about selinux? At the SCALE conference, Karsten Wade gave the
keynote
and acknowledged that selinux was handled badly, and also acknowledged that it
was a huge PR problem - people are still reflexively turning it off because of
the damage the Fedora project did to its reputation. I can't even turn it on
at my workplace because no one trusts it - and FEDORA did that! Fedora, and
Red Hat.
And it's not getting any better, at least from my experience.
I don't believe that I have problems with SELinux on my desktop
computer or, at least, I do not receive messages telling me so. OTOH,
I know that Klipper worked perfectly in KDE3 when I was using it in
Knoppix, for instance. Then, I thought it was because KDE was at
version 4.0. But now?
Now I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with address space
layout randomization. Why does a clipboard utllity suddenly stops
functioning and nobody raises the matter? When I do, I get no answer,
when I repeat my question, some people say I always come back to the
same topics. But nobody dares say they have found out a clipboard
utility that works perfectly, even decently.
Brawlers will throw at you the first thing that comes to their mind.
They'll say "KDE is not Fedora's default desktop environment. Why
don't you use Glipper instead?" Of course, they know that the problem
with Glipper is that, if you have more than one screenful of entries
and you want to select the second one, the entries will slowly unfold
from the last one to the first ones. The silly thingy has been no use
for years. Developers never noticed?
Developers never noticed that ALL file mangers, all the graphics ones,
at least, have bugs? We're talking about very basic stuff, here.
We are *not* irrelevant. I'm not, and neither is the OP, and the
attitude
that says we are is the *problem*.
Yep, this is a good summary. Attitude is the problem. Linux
development is like a hord of Gauls facing the structured army of the
Romans.
5110
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27 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Bill Davidsen -
Birger Monsen -
Craig White -
Fred Smith -
Greg Woods -
jdow -
linux guy -
Marcel Rieux -
Matthew Saltzman -
Michael Miles -
mike cloaked -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Russell Miller -
Tim -
Wayne Feick