On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:16:39 -0600 "Michael Hennebry" hennebry@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Michael Hennebry wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2024, Bob Mar?an via users wrote:
I am a retired Sysadmin who fully understands all the frustrations brought about by the SW installation without real control. Although only for my system, I regularly build a SW package (RPM) for SW, which is not in distribution. Which is actually quite easy. So I always have a clean system and can be very easy to update or delete. However, this is less and less necessary as more SW is available.
My guess is that it's only easy after you have done it a few times.
This is a matter on which I would really like to be wrong. Could you point me at directions?
-- Michael hennebry@mail.cs.ndsu.NoDak.edu
What guidance do you need? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=writing+rpm+spec+file&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&am... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fedora+using+mock&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&ia... Will this be enough? BR, Bob
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Bob Mar?an wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:16:39 -0600 "Michael Hennebry" hennebry@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Michael Hennebry wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2024, Bob Mar?an via users wrote:
I am a retired Sysadmin who fully understands all the frustrations brought about by the SW installation without real control. Although only for my system, I regularly build a SW package (RPM) for SW, which is not in distribution. Which is actually quite easy. So I always have a clean system and can be very easy to update or delete. However, this is less and less necessary as more SW is available.
My guess is that it's only easy after you have done it a few times.
This is a matter on which I would really like to be wrong. Could you point me at directions?
What guidance do you need? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=writing+rpm+spec+file&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&am... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fedora+using+mock&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&ia... Will this be enough?
I'll get back to you on that. My recollection is that I looked it up once and the urge to make an rpm went away in a hurry. That was a while ago. It looks like things might have gotten better.
On 29/11/24 05:01, Michael Hennebry wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024, Bob Mar?an wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:16:39 -0600 "Michael Hennebry" hennebry@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2024, Michael Hennebry wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2024, Bob Mar?an via users wrote:
I am a retired Sysadmin who fully understands all the frustrations brought about by the SW installation without real control. Although only for my system, I regularly build a SW package (RPM) for SW, which is not in distribution. Which is actually quite easy. So I always have a clean system and can be very easy to update or delete. However, this is less and less necessary as more SW is available.
My guess is that it's only easy after you have done it a few times.
This is a matter on which I would really like to be wrong. Could you point me at directions?
What guidance do you need? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=writing+rpm+spec+file&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&am... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=fedora+using+mock&t=ffab&atb=v366-1&ia... Will this be enough?
I'll get back to you on that. My recollection is that I looked it up once and the urge to make an rpm went away in a hurry. That was a while ago. It looks like things might have gotten better.
Just possibly off topic here, but quite some time ago I was playing around with python and needed a package (I don't remember which one it was) that wasn't installed, so I used pip3 to do the install and it installed a python 2 version into python 3, hence the package failed because of differences in the print function. Has anybody else encountered this issue, I'm suspecting a badly created package, but just wanted to confirm that it wasn't more widely spread, that if it was a defect within pip3 under certain conditions that it has been rectified?
regards, Steve
On 28 Nov 2024, at 21:41, Stephen Morris steve.morris.au@gmail.com wrote:
Just possibly off topic here, but quite some time ago I was playing around with python and needed a package (I don't remember which one it was) that wasn't installed, so I used pip3 to do the install and it installed a python 2 version into python 3, hence the package failed because of differences in the print function. Has anybody else encountered this issue, I'm suspecting a badly created package, but just wanted to confirm that it wasn't more widely spread, that if it was a defect within pip3 under certain conditions that it has been rectified?
I follow python very closely and have not heard of this issue before. My guess is that it was an error with the meta data of the package and not a pip bug. Do you remember which package did this?
Barry
On 29/11/24 10:50, Barry wrote:
On 28 Nov 2024, at 21:41, Stephen Morrissteve.morris.au@gmail.com wrote:
Just possibly off topic here, but quite some time ago I was playing around with python and needed a package (I don't remember which one it was) that wasn't installed, so I used pip3 to do the install and it installed a python 2 version into python 3, hence the package failed because of differences in the print function. Has anybody else encountered this issue, I'm suspecting a badly created package, but just wanted to confirm that it wasn't more widely spread, that if it was a defect within pip3 under certain conditions that it has been rectified?
I follow python very closely and have not heard of this issue before. My guess is that it was an error with the meta data of the package and not a pip bug. Do you remember which package did this?
I don't remember which package it was, as I don't remember back that far. I think I finished up abandoning the process that required the offending package. Just as a matter of interest, I've been using a couple of books/magazines to learn python, as we are moving to an environment at work that has a python component and they have banned individuals from doing package installs via pip. With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip? I'm asking this because as part of the learning I've been doing, I've encountered the situation where the package required for production of a game, produced messages about my cpu supporting a certain option but it wasn't available and I think the package did nothing, and people on this list said that fedora doesn't compile for that option, and the package installed via pip didn't produce the messages. Also I've been in the situation where the tutorial I was doing, which was written for python 3.12 (the version Fedora was using prior to the F41 upgrade) where the repository installed version didn't contain the referenced functions, but the pip3 installed version did. Just as a matter of curiosity, given these issues, if we need to install a package that is currently not installed, how do we know whether its better to install it from the repositories which presumably will install it as global, or install it via pip3 where it can be installed for just the current user?
regards, Steve
Barry
On 30 Nov 2024, at 00:00, Stephen Morris steve.morris.au@gmail.com wrote:
With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip?
I usually use the package from fedora over install from PyPI. But if a newer version is needed I will install that into a venv.
I know that fedora will work with any of the python package RPMs installed.
Barry
On Sat, 2024-11-30 at 10:59 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip?
The recommendation always was use your distro's packaging system if you wanted a stable system. Of course you're screwed if what you want isn't available for it. That leaves you with trying to create it, or influencing someone else into doing it.
Or you take your chances and install it from outside of the distro's ecosystem, and you get to play with all the pieces when it breaks.
You may be able to sandbox things to some extent, but that's going to depend on how much of your system's doo-dahs make use of Python. That's probably less of an problem if your PC is just a box you type code on than something more general use. Any PC with just five application on it is obviously going to have less interactions and clashes than one with a hundred.
For these kinds of reasons (limiting breakage, and recovery from it) that some people use virtual machines. They can set up a playpen that's not the main OS. A playpen that they can dump if it goes haywire and they still have a running system.
On 30 Nov 2024, at 09:22, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sat, 2024-11-30 at 10:59 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip?
The recommendation always was use your distro's packaging system if you wanted a stable system.
Yes
Of course you're screwed if what you want isn't available for it. That leaves you with trying to create it, or influencing someone else into doing it.
The python way to isolate from the OS is to use the venv machinary. I'm guessing from your response you are not familiar with it.
What venv gives you is a way to install all the dependencies for your python project into its own set of directories.
You then run your script by using the venv's python program.
Tl;dr - use venv if the OS does not provide the PyPI package you want to use.
Or you take your chances and install it from outside of the distro's ecosystem, and you get to play with all the pieces when it breaks.
Use venv avoid this problem completely.
You may be able to sandbox things to some extent, but that's going to depend on how much of your system's doo-dahs make use of Python. That's probably less of an problem if your PC is just a box you type code on than something more general use. Any PC with just five application on it is obviously going to have less interactions and clashes than one with a hundred.
Not a problem if you use venv.
For these kinds of reasons (limiting breakage, and recovery from it) that some people use virtual machines. They can set up a playpen that's not the main OS. A playpen that they can dump if it goes haywire and they still have a running system.
Not required if you use venv.
Barry
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On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 09:33:30 +0000 "Barry Scott" barry@barrys-emacs.org wrote:
On 30 Nov 2024, at 09:22, Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sat, 2024-11-30 at 10:59 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip?
The recommendation always was use your distro's packaging system if you wanted a stable system.
Yes
Of course you're screwed if what you want isn't available for it. That leaves you with trying to create it, or influencing someone else into doing it.
The python way to isolate from the OS is to use the venv machinary. I'm guessing from your response you are not familiar with it.
How to build rpm:
python setup.py bdist_rpm
On 30/11/24 23:27, Bob Marčan via users wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 09:33:30 +0000 "Barry Scott"barry@barrys-emacs.org wrote:
On 30 Nov 2024, at 09:22, Tim via usersusers@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Sat, 2024-11-30 at 10:59 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
With reference to the Fedora environment, if a package is required to be installed, would you recommend installing the repository version or download it with pip?
The recommendation always was use your distro's packaging system if you wanted a stable system.
Yes
Of course you're screwed if what you want isn't available for it. That leaves you with trying to create it, or influencing someone else into doing it.
The python way to isolate from the OS is to use the venv machinary. I'm guessing from your response you are not familiar with it.
How to build rpm:
python setup.py bdist_rpm
The magazines said they had written their tutorials for python 3.12, as that was the most commonly used version of python. But my main question is, because I had issues where required functions for the tutorial weren't in the Fedora version of the package, which in my case was already installed as part of the python install, how do we know before installing a package rpm whether or not it is going to have the needed functions?
Just off topic, I've also been in the situation where I was looking for euchre and canasta card games for linux (I already had them on my phone), where I found a canasta one but in wouldn't install in the version of Fedora I was using because of a missing file dependency (my memory is not good enough to remember the package name nor whether this was before or after my upgrade from F40 to F41). When I did a net search for what contained the file in question I found a page with details on what packages contained the file for various distributions of which Fedora was one. The page referenced a specific package name suffixed with a "D", but when I searched the repositories I found a package of the same name but suffixed with a "U" instead of a "D", and after installing the package to find what out what files it installed (because that information is not provided in Fedora anymore for uninstalled packages) I found that all the files installed by the package were also suffixed with a "U", so that package was never going to supply the required dependency. Would this have been a situation where the web site I found detailing the Fedora information was written for an older version of Fedora (which was unstated) or was the information just wrong and the required dependency has never existed in Fedora because of naming conventions?
regards, Steve
On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 5:27 PM Stephen Morris steve.morris.au@gmail.com wrote:
On 30/11/24 23:27, Bob Marčan via users wrote: [...] The python way to isolate from the OS is to use the venv machinary. I'm guessing from your response you are not familiar with it.
How to build rpm:
python setup.py bdist_rpm
The magazines said they had written their tutorials for python 3.12, as that was the most commonly used version of python. But my main question is, because I had issues where required functions for the tutorial weren't in the Fedora version of the package, which in my case was already installed as part of the python install, how do we know before installing a package rpm whether or not it is going to have the needed functions?
The way I have dealt with this in the past is, don't use bleeding edge. Download packages that are from the same epoch as the Fedora release you are building for. If you are building something for Fedora 41, which was released October 2024, then download packages and dependencies that were released around that time. If functions are missing, then download an earlier version of the package or dependency and try again.
I do the same regularly for Keysmith, especially on Ubuntu. I can't build the latest Keysmith release on Ubuntu. I usually have to checkout an earlier version due to Qt dependencies.
Jeff
On 1/12/24 11:08, Jeffrey Walton wrote:
On Sat, Nov 30, 2024 at 5:27 PM Stephen Morris steve.morris.au@gmail.com wrote:
On 30/11/24 23:27, Bob Marčan via users wrote: [...] The python way to isolate from the OS is to use the venv machinary. I'm guessing from your response you are not familiar with it.
How to build rpm:
python setup.py bdist_rpm
The magazines said they had written their tutorials for python 3.12, as that was the most commonly used version of python. But my main question is, because I had issues where required functions for the tutorial weren't in the Fedora version of the package, which in my case was already installed as part of the python install, how do we know before installing a package rpm whether or not it is going to have the needed functions?
The way I have dealt with this in the past is, don't use bleeding edge. Download packages that are from the same epoch as the Fedora release you are building for. If you are building something for Fedora 41, which was released October 2024, then download packages and dependencies that were released around that time. If functions are missing, then download an earlier version of the package or dependency and try again.
I do the same regularly for Keysmith, especially on Ubuntu. I can't build the latest Keysmith release on Ubuntu. I usually have to checkout an earlier version due to Qt dependencies.
Thanks Jeff, as the module was already installed in Fedora I didn't think about trying to downgrade it. Comparing the installed version to the version that pip installed for python 3.12, the Fedora installed version was missing a large number of functions, so it looked like the Fedora version was a stub module and not the full module.
regards, Steve
Jeff
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Barry -
Barry Scott
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Bob Marčan -
Jeffrey Walton -
Michael Hennebry -
Stephen Morris -
Tim