is KDE dead - did Gnome win?

[Genes MailLists]

   I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it
was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  -
easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by
contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits  it
allowed you to -  you needed in part to learn about its registry which
warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use
at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through
a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.

  That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
etc etc).

  So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving
up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing
manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and
stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has
little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the
one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or
4.4 or... 5.0 ..

 So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:

  (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
or alive ?

  (2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very
similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default
(;-).

  Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.

  gene

[Rex Dieter]

Ian Pilcher wrote:

>  Rex Dieter wrote:
> > Imo, there are much better uses of developer time than to re-write
> > system-config-* tools in multiple toolkits.
>  
>  I never claimed otherwise. 
I fail to see the point of making the the comment then.

-- Rex

[Joonas Sarajärvi]

Hi

2008/12/21 Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;:
>    I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it
>  was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  -
>  easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by
>  contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits  it
>  allowed you to -  you needed in part to learn about its registry which
>  warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use
>  at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through
>  a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable. 
I have used the Gnome 2.* series for a couple of years, and I find
most of your bad points regarding it at least biased, others
completely false. However, that's a bit off-topic to this thread, so
I'd rather not discuss them here unnecessarily.

>   That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
>  not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
>  like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
>  workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
>  etc etc). 
I haven't found KDE 4 any harder to configure than the KDE 3 series,
though I can find the things I want to configure a lot better than
before due to the cleaned-up and better organised configuration tool.

At least the taskbar is a lot more configurable in KDE 4.2 than in the
current KDE 4.1. I didn't understand the part about workspace chooser,
though.

>   So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly
> giving
>  up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing
>  manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and
>  stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has
>  little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the
>  one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or
>  4.4 or... 5.0 .. 
Gnome is nowadays (mostly) very stable and mature, and it works well
for millions of people. It is also easy to use and has sane default
settings which usually require little or even no tweaking. It's a
great choice for a default desktop environment.

However, I have lately found Gnome a bit dull and boring, and have
instead started using KDE 4, which is getting tons of new developments
and opening new possibilities. To top it off, it also looks very good.
(Subject for debate! :-)

>   So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
>
>   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
>  or alive ? 
I have never seen KDE more alive than today. I wondered the same
question a couple of years earlier, when KDE 3 seemed to progress
nowhere and KDE 4 was still mostly mockups and speculation.

>   (2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all
> very
>  similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default
>  (;-). 
When I started using GNU/Linux, I used to hop between KDE, Gnome and
other alternatives a lot, eventually settling on Gnome because it just
felt a lot better designed and polished. Now that KDE 4 is making
great progress, however, I just had to check it out and start using
it, even with its current little problems.

I miss the spatial file manager from Gnome, but I can manage to do
what I want to, even without it :-)

-- 
Joonas Sarajärvi
muepsj(a)gmail.com

[Armin]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mike Cloaked <mike.cloaked(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Kevin Kofler wrote:
> >
> >
> > Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is
> > any
> > worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of
> > those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any
> > sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as
> > always.
> >
> >
>
>  I really do hope that KDE4.2 lives up to expectations. I have until recently
>  been a loyal user of KDE (from the days of FC1!) but felt I could not use
>  KDE4.1 as it stands so I have temporarily switched to Gnome for F10. It is
>  not perfect for some of the things I need though, and I am really hoping
>  that when KDE4.2 is released to F10 in 2009 that it will be functional to a
>  level where I can switch back to using KDE again.
>
>  I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?) that I believe was
>  recently made available, but it would be nice to see good reviews and
>  summaries of what works and what is still missing or buggy so that when it
>  is released I can feel confident of making the switch back.
>  --
>  View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/is-KDE-dead---did-Gnome-win--tp21118075p21126663.html
>  Sent from the Fedora List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>  
I will tell you my opinion.  KDE 4.2 (beta 2 for now) has lived up to
more than my expectations.
I don't really know what you guys expect from it, but it satisfies all
of my needs and luxury desires.

-- 
Armin

"Character is a muscle"

[Anne Wilson]

On Wednesday 31 December 2008 08:16:44 Anne Wilson wrote:
>  On Tuesday 30 December 2008 14:00:22 Ian Pilcher wrote:
>  > Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right
>  > now.
>
>  I tried to find out the current state of this, for you.  Here are the
>  replies I've received so far:
>
>  1) Dual monitor as in Xinerama or NVidia's TwinView?
>
>  I've been using that forever, since I first started using KDE 4. The only
>  thing that annoyed me in the beginning was the inability to add a Plasma
>  panel to the right screen. That has been fixed for a long while (though
>  that might mean it's a KDE 4.2 fix).
>
>  2) I had a very bad experience with a dual monitor in KDE4.2b2, and after I
>  spoke with a very nice guy in #kwin (his name started with Z, iirc) that
>  explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor and you
>  configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR that is under
>  development but is not complete, while there is a way through Xorg to
>  configure correctly the dual monitor (I don't had enough time to test this
>  way)
>
>  3) My experience: If its setup via xorg.conf statically it works quite well
>  (can't recall any plasma problems with that). Dynamically enabling a
>  monitor via xrandr still doesn't work, it crashes kwin endlessly (i.e. its
>  unusable) and IIRC also plasma still has a problem with that (didn't notice
>  the new screen and hence didn't setup a containment for it).
>
>  I guess that whatever it was I read (probably in a developer's blog) it was
>  talking about a new commit that brings this nearer.  It sounds to me as
>  though it will not be ready/complete when 4.2 is released.
>
>  If I get anything more concrete I'll pass it on.
>  
One other person said that he has twinview working in 4.1.3.  Does that help?

Anne

[solarflow99]

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com&gt; wrote:

>  On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 14:29 -0700, Robin Laing wrote:
>  >
>  > I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my
>  > experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface.  To many
>  > clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
>  >
>  > I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu.
>  ----
>  as long as you realize that you can merely right click the 'Application
>  Launcher' widget to 'Switch to Classic Menu Style' 

LXDE:)  works like a charm, nice and lean just how software should be.

[Craig White]

On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 14:29 -0700, Robin Laing wrote:
>   
>  I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my 
>  experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface.  To many 
>  clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
>  
>  I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu. 
----
as long as you realize that you can merely right click the 'Application
Launcher' widget to 'Switch to Classic Menu Style'

Craig

[Tom Horsley]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:29:32 -0700
Robin Laing wrote:

>  > Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in
> kick-off that 
>  > is like window$, but I have yet to find out.  I don't see anything to be the 
>  > same except that there are some things and you click on them.
>  >   
>  
>  I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my 
>  experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface.  To many 
>  clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be. 
I don't know about KDE kick-off, but it is certainly clear that GDM
is desperate to be a clone of the windows login screen and gnome logout
as well, with the annoying window fade to black & white animation (that
takes forever to update when running in an NX session so you have to
wait forever before you can push the damn go ahead and exit already
button :-).

[Robin Laing]

Armin wrote:
>  On Monday 02 February 2009 13:54:00 Robin Laing wrote:
> > Craig White wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
> >>> wrote:
> > \SNIP 
> > KDE 4.1 is pretty good.  I am having some weird issues that I
> don't like
> > but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes.  I hear 4.2
> > is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy.  Of course
> > that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista
> > like menu.
>  
>  Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in kick-off that 
>  is like window$, but I have yet to find out.  I don't see anything to be the 
>  same except that there are some things and you click on them.
>   
I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my 
experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface.  To many 
clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.

I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu.

> > My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think
> of Macs
> > and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
>  
>  that's the first time I'm hearing this.
>   
I wouldn't know how similar it is but those are her thoughts.  I will 
try to convert her.  :)

> >> I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on
> F10 than
> >> GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
> >>
> >> Craig
> > I will drink to that.  To each their own.  The person that turned me
> > onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when
> > 4.2 comes out.
>  
>  KDE 4.2 is already out and I'v been using it for 2 months now (from RC) and 
>  the final came out last tuesday.  You can get it from kde-redhat repo.
>   
I don't have that repo but I will have to get it.



> > --
> > Robin Laing
>   

-- 
Robin Laing

[Aldo Foot]

On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Robin Laing <Robin.Laing(a)drdc-rddc.gc.ca&gt; wrote:
<..snip...>
>  My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of
> Macs and
>  she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's. 
Funny thing. While using KDE 4.1 in F10, I was tweaking settings and
the very first moment I saw the
layout of the System Settings control panel I though "Time warp! it
looks like Mac OS X..." I did not think there was anything wrong with
that. I found the control panel to be quite functional.

~af

[Armin]

On Monday 02 February 2009 13:54:00 Robin Laing wrote:
>  Craig White wrote:
>  > On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
>  >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
>  >> wrote:
>
>  \SNIP
>
>  > the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE
>  > to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
>
>  When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so
>  frustrated.  I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work but
>  that was my fault.  I didn't know about the session selector in GDM and
>  was trying switch desktop function.
>
>  After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations.  Some nice
>  improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS
>  Windows.  No real control to improve the efficiency.
>
>  KDE 4.1 is pretty good.  I am having some weird issues that I don't like
>  but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes.  I hear 4.2
>  is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy.  Of course
>  that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista
>  like menu. 
Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in kick-off that 
is like window$, but I have yet to find out.  I don't see anything to be the 
same except that there are some things and you click on them.

>  My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of
> Macs
>  and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's. 
that's the first time I'm hearing this.

>  > I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10
> than
>  > GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
>  >
>  > Craig
>
>  I will drink to that.  To each their own.  The person that turned me
>  onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when
>  4.2 comes out. 
KDE 4.2 is already out and I'v been using it for 2 months now (from RC) and 
the final came out last tuesday.  You can get it from kde-redhat repo.

>  --
>  Robin Laing 
-- 
Armin Moradi

[Anne Wilson]

On Friday 30 January 2009 16:47:13 Craig White wrote:
>  I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than
>  GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong. 
Absolutely correct.  However, there is a difference between saying that you 
are much happier with a different desktop, and saying that what you dislike is 
crap.  Personal likes and choices are just that.

Anne

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:51 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>
> > I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I
> > switched from Gnome to KDE.
>  ----
>  I thought that was what blogs are for.
>
>  Craig 

This thread suggests otherwise.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:51 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:

>  I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I
>  switched from Gnome to KDE. 
----
I thought that was what blogs are for.

Craig

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Craig White <craigwhite(a)azapple.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
> > wrote:
> >           Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have
> >         switched
> >         from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
> >
> > Have fun.  I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0.  Quite
> > frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out
> > there at this point.  It's definitely ready.
> >
> >
> >           I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I
> >         will
> >         revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover
> >         to be the
> >         functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.
> >
> > Are you trying to draw flames or something?  KDE  is functional,
> > configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows
> > desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you
> > absolutely batty.
>  ----
>  the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE
>  to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
>
>  I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than
>  GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
>
>  Craig 

I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I
switched from Gnome to KDE.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
>   
>  
>  On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
>  wrote:
>            Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have
>          switched
>          from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
>  
>  Have fun.  I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0.  Quite
>  frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out
>  there at this point.  It's definitely ready.
>  
>          
>            I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I
>          will
>          revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover
>          to be the
>          functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.
>  
>  Are you trying to draw flames or something?  KDE  is functional,
>  configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows
>  desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you
>  absolutely batty. 
----
the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE
to GNOME. It's about the expectations.

I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than
GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.

Craig

[Kelly Miller]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt; wrote:

>   Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have
> switched
>  from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today. 

Have fun.  I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0.  Quite
frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out there
at this point.  It's definitely ready.

>    I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will
>  revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the
>  functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.
>  
Are you trying to draw flames or something?  KDE  is functional,
configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows
desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you
absolutely batty.

[Genes MailLists]

On 01/28/2009 11:07 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
>  Mail Lists wrote: 
   - I've been unable to add items to my
desktop menu(s)
>  
>  System -> Preferences -> Look and Feel -> Main Menu
>  
>  I'm able to add and remove items using this tool. 
  I was thinking of Right (or left) Click on Background Menu rather than
the Applications menu on the panel ... i don't see it there - maybe I am
not looking right ..


>  
>  If you're on F10, you're probably trying too hard.  At least ssh-agent
>  functionality is built in to the gnome-keyring-daemon.  You don't have
>  to start it yourself.  You probably don't even need to run 'ssh-add';
>  you'll be prompted for the passphrase to keys in the default paths when
>  ssh tries to use them for the first time (or at login, if you click a
>  checkbox). 
  Yes thank you - I am aware of that - but the behaviour of that I found
not to my taste - it grabs focus and refuses to let go. I went back to
the standard ssh-agent and openssh askpass and ssh-add.
>   
 Thank you for your thoughts ..

[Gordon Messmer]

Mail Lists wrote:
>    Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:
>  
>      - I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s) 
System -> Preferences -> Look and Feel -> Main Menu

I'm able to add and remove items using this tool.

>      - keyring management needs help - and getting gpg-agent and
>  ssh-agent to work sanely took some scripting which now works perfectly
>  for me. 
If you're on F10, you're probably trying too hard.  At least ssh-agent 
functionality is built in to the gnome-keyring-daemon.  You don't have 
to start it yourself.  You probably don't even need to run 'ssh-add'; 
you'll be prompted for the passphrase to keys in the default paths when 
ssh tries to use them for the first time (or at login, if you click a 
checkbox).

[Paulo Cavalcanti]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt; wrote:

>  On 12/21/2008 02:05 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
>  >    I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it
>  > was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  -
>
>   ..
>
>  >
>  >   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
>  > or alive ?
>  >
>
>
>    Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched
>  from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today. 

I disagree, and I am always have been a gnome user.



>   Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:
>
>     - I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)
>
>     - Session save remains broken - still
>  
There is a way of implementing a "manual" session save for gnome:

http://blogs.sun.com/mattman/entry/gnome_2_24_session_save1

It is working just fine for me, even with compiz. I just need to click
on a panel icon to send my terminals and applications to their appropriate
locations.

Note that this works only for gnome-terminal 2.24 (F10). gnome-terminal 2.18
(F8)
seems to not allow the changing of a terminal title.

-- 
Paulo Roma Cavalcanti
LCG - UFRJ

[Genes MailLists]

On 12/21/2008 02:05 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
>     I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus -
> it
>  was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  - 
 ..

>  
>    (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
>  or alive ?
>   

  Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched
from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.

  Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:

    - I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)

    - Session save remains broken - still

    - gdm configuration is scattered and peculiar (combination of
/etc/gdm/ files, /etc/gconf, each users gconf, user gdm gconf) ... but
it does work

    - keyring management needs help - and getting gpg-agent and
ssh-agent to work sanely took some scripting which now works perfectly
for me.

    - overall I am content at this point.

   I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will
revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the
functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.

   gene

[Kevin Kofler]

Anne Wilson wrote:
>  I tried to find out the current state of this, for you. 
The echos I got from upstream are that it should be way better in 4.2 than
4.1. They implemented a new library called Kephal in kdebase-workspace
which is designed to improve multi-monitor support.

>  explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor
> and
>  you configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR 
That would be XRandR (X Resize and Rotate - its original functionality was
to allow "resizing" (i.e. switching the resolution of) or rotating the
screen without restarting X11, support for adding/removing screens has been
added later).

        Kevin Kofler

[Anne Wilson]

On Tuesday 30 December 2008 14:00:22 Ian Pilcher wrote:
>  Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most
> right
>  now. 
I tried to find out the current state of this, for you.  Here are the replies 
I've received so far:

1) Dual monitor as in Xinerama or NVidia's TwinView?

I've been using that forever, since I first started using KDE 4. The only 
thing that annoyed me in the beginning was the inability to add a Plasma 
panel to the right screen. That has been fixed for a long while (though 
that might mean it's a KDE 4.2 fix).

2) I had a very bad experience with a dual monitor in KDE4.2b2, and after I 
spoke with a very nice guy in #kwin (his name started with Z, iirc) that 
explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor and you 
configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR that is under 
development but is not complete, while there is a way through Xorg to 
configure correctly the dual monitor (I don't had enough time to test this 
way)

3) My experience: If its setup via xorg.conf statically it works quite well
(can't recall any plasma problems with that). Dynamically enabling a
monitor via xrandr still doesn't work, it crashes kwin endlessly (i.e. its
unusable) and IIRC also plasma still has a problem with that (didn't notice
the new screen and hence didn't setup a containment for it).

I guess that whatever it was I read (probably in a developer's blog) it was 
talking about a new commit that brings this nearer.  It sounds to me as though 
it will not be ready/complete when 4.2 is released.

If I get anything more concrete I'll pass it on.

Anne

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Ian Pilcher <arequipeno(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as 'has not
> > yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been
> > removed from KDE 4.x?
>
>  If it hadn't been removed, it wouldn't need adding back. 
Well just needs adding, not adding back. They started the code base
fresh as far as I understand... which means it hasn't been removed.

>  Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most
> right
>  now.  This is an area in which KDE 3.5 is far ahead of GNOME.  OTOH, I
>  find KDE 4 to be completely unusable on a dual-head setup. 

I thought dual head was mostly an X issue.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Ian Pilcher]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as
> 'has not
>  yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been
>  removed from KDE 4.x? 
If it hadn't been removed, it wouldn't need adding back.

Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right
now.  This is an area in which KDE 3.5 is far ahead of GNOME.  OTOH, I
find KDE 4 to be completely unusable on a dual-head setup.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno(a)gmail.com
========================================================================

[Armin]

>  You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review
>  request. ;-)
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
>  I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then
>  we'll see for F10 and F9.
>
>         Kevin Kofler
>  
Thanks! :D  will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till
F11?

-- 
Armin

"Character is a muscle"

[Anne Wilson]

On Saturday 03 January 2009 11:44:30 Ambrogio wrote:
>  For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that
> applications
>  localized work well.
>  But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2
>  applications that I use very often) menus are in italian.
>  If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution
>  and gnome are in english.
>  I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop
>  configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull. 
I can see that that's a problem :-)  I'm sure it must be possible to do 
something about this, but it's a specialist area.  I wonder if Kevin Koffler 
can help?  I feel that there must be specialist lists for handling language 
problems.  I'd be inclined to try asking on kde-i18n-it - 
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-i18n-it

Although the main focus is on translation they may well be able to tell you 
what you need to do to get the languages correctly aligned.

HTH

Anne

[Michael Leung]

I use KDE too.
Regards,
Michael Leung
www.michaelleung.info
http://diary.skynovel.info



On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Ambrogio <fn050202(a)interfree.it&gt; wrote:

>  On sab, 2009-01-03 at 11:25 +0000, Anne Wilson wrote:
>  > Hi, Ambrogio.  You really don't have to switch to gnome to use evolution
>  or
>  > gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if
>  you
>  > were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application).  Installing
>  the
>  > application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the
>  application
>  > will run on either desktop.  I do use some gnome applications on my kde
>  > desktop.
>  Yes, I know that. My mail was only a "provocation" :-)
>  About interation and integration of desktops and applications, I have a
>  lot of problems.
>
>  For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that applications
>  localized work well.
>  But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2
>  applications that I use very often) menus are in italian.
>  If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution
>  and gnome are in english.
>  I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop
>  configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull.
>
>  > Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem,
>  since if
>  > I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration
>  that's at
>  > fault.
>  I think this is the right approach, and also read and check other
>  similar bugs or help request.
>
>  > A few, but not many now.  The problem is that some of the things are done
>  > differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask.  We
>  may
>  > be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you
>  > whether it is work-in-progress.
>  I know that there are everytime things that are work-in-progress, and
>  other that are impossible.
>  I need everytime the last one :-)
>
>  Bye
>  --
>  Ambrogio De Lorenzo
>  Professional Services Manager
>  EMC Proven Specialist
>
>  Tel:    [phone]
>  Fax:    [phone]
>  Email:  ambrogio.delorenzo(a)gdit.it
>  ICQ:    161962491
>  Linux User #389536
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  Guidelines:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>  


-- 
Regards,
Michael Leung
http://www.itblogs.info
http://www.michaelleung.info

[Ambrogio]

On sab, 2009-01-03 at 11:25 +0000, Anne Wilson wrote:
>  Hi, Ambrogio.  You really don't have to switch to gnome to use
> evolution or 
>  gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if you 
>  were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application).  Installing the 
>  application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the application 
>  will run on either desktop.  I do use some gnome applications on my kde 
>  desktop. 
Yes, I know that. My mail was only a "provocation" :-)
About interation and integration of desktops and applications, I have a
lot of problems.

For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that applications
localized work well.
But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2
applications that I use very often) menus are in italian.
If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution
and gnome are in english.
I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop
configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull.

>  Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem,
> since if 
>  I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration that's
> at 
>  fault. 
I think this is the right approach, and also read and check other
similar bugs or help request.

>  A few, but not many now.  The problem is that some of the things are
> done 
>  differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask.  We may 
>  be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you 
>  whether it is work-in-progress. 
I know that there are everytime things that are
work-in-progress, and
other that are impossible.
I need everytime the last one :-)

Bye
-- 
Ambrogio De Lorenzo
Professional Services Manager
EMC Proven Specialist

Tel:    [phone]
Fax:    [phone]
Email:  ambrogio.delorenzo(a)gdit.it
ICQ:    161962491
Linux User #389536

[Anne Wilson]

On Saturday 03 January 2009 10:52:40 Ambrogio wrote:
>  On ven, 2009-01-02 at 16:26 -0400, Armin wrote:
>
>
>  If I love evolution can I use it on KDE? I used it on KDE for years, why
>  I have to switch to gnome now?
>
>  And if I love gimp, I have to switch to gnome?
>  And if after I love ktorrent or sone k* I have to switch to KDE?
>
>  So, it's better to have 2 desktop session and switch from one to the
>  other simply clicking ctrl-alt-F6 and clicking ctrl-alt-F7 for example?
>  I don't understand this approach... I like linux because it permit me to
>  choise between desktops, between application.
>  Now I think that this is not so true like in the past.
>  
Hi, Ambrogio.  You really don't have to switch to gnome to use evolution or 
gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if you 
were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application).  Installing the 
application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the application 
will run on either desktop.  I do use some gnome applications on my kde 
desktop.

>  > Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE
> devs.  They
>  > have *re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great
>  > problems.  Use it, love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)
>  > If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports,
>  > documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs. 
>  > It's that easy!
>
>  I'm involved in some other QA on the open source, so I know that this is
>  a good approach to the problem, but before to open a bug I will know if
>  I'm the only one that has the problem, or is a choice.
>  
Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem, since if 
I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration that's at

fault.

>  > On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able
> to do in
>  > KDE 3.x.
>
>  That's true, but you can't do things that you done in the past
>  
A few, but not many now.  The problem is that some of the things are done 
differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask.  We may 
be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you 
whether it is work-in-progress.

Anne

[Ambrogio]

On ven, 2009-01-02 at 16:26 -0400, Armin wrote:

>  Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on
> my nerves.  
>  Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2?  And plus, if you love evolution, why not 
>  just use gnome.  KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that 
>  evolution and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE. 
I use KDE from
official repos for Fedora 9.
I don't have time to install and test the 4.2beta2 version, because I
don't have skills to do it. 
I don't work very well with desktops.
I prefere KDE only because I ever used it. Maybe I will like Gnome if I
will start to use it.

Changing from kde3 to kde4 maybe could be the right moment to switch to
gnome, because kde4 is very different from the kde3 but I will stay on
KDE.

If I love evolution can I use it on KDE? I used it on KDE for years, why
I have to switch to gnome now?

And if I love gimp, I have to switch to gnome?
And if after I love ktorrent or sone k* I have to switch to KDE?

So, it's better to have 2 desktop session and switch from one to the
other simply clicking ctrl-alt-F6 and clicking ctrl-alt-F7 for example?
I don't understand this approach... I like linux because it permit me to
choise between desktops, between application.
Now I think that this is not so true like in the past.

>  Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs.
>  They have 
>  *re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great problems.  Use it, 
>  love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)
>  If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, 
>  documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs.  It's 
>  that easy! 
I'm involved in some other QA on the open source, so I know that
this is
a good approach to the problem, but before to open a bug I will know if
I'm the only one that has the problem, or is a choice.

>  On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do
> in KDE 
>  3.x. 
That's true, but you can't do things that you done in the past

>  Happy new year :) 
Happy new year to you too

Bye
 Ambrogio

[Armin]

On Friday 02 January 2009 16:15:35 Ambrogio wrote:
>  On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
>  > That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
>  > not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
>  > like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
>  > workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
>  > etc etc).
>
>  And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications.
>  I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some
>  other gnome application.
>  Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.
>
>  Bye
>   Ambrogio 
Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on my nerves.  
Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2?  And plus, if you love evolution, why not 
just use gnome.  KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that 
evolution and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE.

Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs.  They have 
*re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great problems.  Use it, 
love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)

If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, 
documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs.  It's 
that easy!

On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE 
3.x.

And well, I won't forget to mention, Happy new year :)
-- 
Armin

[Ambrogio]

On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:

>  That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
>  not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
>  like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
>  workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
>  etc etc). 
And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications.
I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some
other gnome application.
Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.

Bye
 Ambrogio

[Rex Dieter]

Armin Moradi wrote:

> > You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this
> review
> > request. ;-)
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
> > I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then
> > we'll see for F10 and F9.
> >
> >        Kevin Kofler
> >
>  
>  Thanks! :D  will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till
>  F11? 
Probably coming with/near kde-4.2, when it lands in updates.

-- Rex

[Rex Dieter]

Jeff Spaleta wrote:

>  On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Kevin Kofler
> <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt;
>  wrote:
> > You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review
> > request. ;-)
> > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
> > I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then
> > we'll see for F10 and F9. 
>  Does that provide a KDE equivalent to the polkit-gnome-authorization
> gui? 
As I understand it, yes.

-- Rex

[Jef Spaleta]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:
>  You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review
>  request. ;-)
>  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
>  I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then
>  we'll see for F10 and F9. 

Does that provide a KDE equivalent to the polkit-gnome-authorization gui?

-jef

[Kevin Kofler]

Armin Moradi wrote:
>  Although I would like to see the dialog that asks for password,
> written in
>  Qt so it would have a more native look. 
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review
request. ;-)
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then
we'll see for F10 and F9.

        Kevin Kofler

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:
>  Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> > Why does the GUI [of system-config-printer] depend on gnome at all? As
> > opposed to just Gtk?
>
>  It depends on gnome-python2, presumably because it uses some of its
>  features. (I think the systray applet is what uses the GNOME libs.) Just as
>  programs depend on KDE rather than just Qt for good reasons.
>
>  I don't think removing the GNOME dependency is the correct solution,
>  splitting off the common, non-GUI files shared with KDE into a
>  system-config-printer-common subpackage is. (I should have filed a bug to
>  request this ages ago.)
>
>         Kevin Kofler 

Okay, I somewhat curious to take a look at system-config-samba myself
as last time I tried it i raised an exception and died quietly.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Kevin Kofler]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  Why does the GUI [of system-config-printer] depend on gnome at all?
> As
>  opposed to just Gtk?  
It depends on gnome-python2, presumably because it uses some of its
features. (I think the systray applet is what uses the GNOME libs.) Just as
programs depend on KDE rather than just Qt for good reasons.

I don't think removing the GNOME dependency is the correct solution,
splitting off the common, non-GUI files shared with KDE into a
system-config-printer-common subpackage is. (I should have filed a bug to
request this ages ago.)

        Kevin Kofler

[Tom Horsley]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:15:26 -0600
Arthur Pemberton wrote:

>  Why does the GUI depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?
Well for one thing, no gtk app can display readable fonts
unless the gnome-settings-daemon is running to tell them what
to do.

I hate both the gnome and kde desktops, and in my quest to rid
myself of them, I've definitely discovered there are pieces
you can't do without. Aside from gnome-settings-daemon for
gtk apps, most apps (kde or gtk) can't seem to survive without
a dbus daemon running.

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Kevin Kofler <kevin.kofler(a)chello.at&gt; wrote:
>  MKas wrote:
> >  kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10                installed
> >  5.6 M
>
>  Depends on system-config-printer for the printer applet. That in turn pulls
>  in some GNOME stuff. We should probably get system-config-printer split as
>  it is in Ubuntu (they separate the core files from the GNOME GUI).
>
>         Kevin Kofler 
Why does the GUI depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Kevin Kofler]

MKas wrote:
>   kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10               
> installed 
>   5.6 M 
Depends on system-config-printer for the printer applet. That in turn pulls
in some GNOME stuff. We should probably get system-config-printer split as
it is in Ubuntu (they separate the core files from the GNOME GUI).

        Kevin Kofler

[Timothy Murphy]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

>  On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy
> <gayleard(a)eircom.net&gt;
>  wrote:
> > MKas wrote:
> >
> >> I like KDE, but what I see:
> >>
> >> bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
> >
> > Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
>  
>  True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more
>  difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome. 
Actually, I installed Fedora-10 from the KDE Live CD,
and then yum groupinstall-ed "KDE (K Desktop Environment)",
and I only had half a dozen gnome applications on my laptop,
which I can live with, personally.

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

[Ian Pilcher]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  We went a few rounds about this several months ago. I said at the
> time
>  that Fedora is a Gnome platform that also supports KDE, but that
>  seemed to bother some people (to be clear: I'm a KDE user myself).
>  
>  However even if this is the case with Fedora, it doesn't mean that
>  Gnome has "won" in any meaningful sense. There are several popular
>  distros out there that one could call "KDE based but also supporting
>  Gnome", Suse being the most obvious example. 
As the person that kicked off this little sub-thread, let me chime in
and agree with Patrick's statement.  I never said (nor did I mean to
imply) that there is anything wrong with Fedora's "GNOME-centricity".

The point I was trying to make is that KDE users have often had a some-
what more difficult time getting everything to work smoothly than have
GNOME users.  This tends to show up in areas like fonts and colors in
GTK+ applications and the integration of the desktop with lower-level
hardware-related stuff.

In the past, I accepted these inconveniences, because I found KDE to be
a more productive environment.  With the EOL of KDE 3, that is decidedly
no longer the case (for me).  Why then, should I continue to accept the
negative aspects of running KDE on Fedora when the positive aspects no
longer exist?

As a final point, let me say that I absolutely do not blame any of the
Fedora developers, the KDE SIG, etc., for this situation.  From my
perspective, this is entirely the fault of the KDE developers who
decided it is OK to remove longstanding functionality because plasmoids
(whatever they are) are going to be really cool someday.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno(a)gmail.com
========================================================================

[Vnpenguin]

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy
> <gayleard(a)eircom.net&gt; wrote:
> > MKas wrote:
> >
> >> I like KDE, but what I see:
> >>
> >> bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
> >
> > Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
>
>
>  True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more
>  difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
>
>   bluez                   i386    4.19-1.fc10                   installed  979 k
>   firefox                 i386    3.0.5-1.fc10                  installed   14 M
>   firstboot               i386    1.102-1.fc10                  installed  652 k
>   kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10                installed  5.6 M
>   setroubleshoot          noarch  2.0.12-3.fc10                 installed  275 k
>   system-config-date      noarch  1.9.34-1.fc10                 installed  3.8 M
>   system-config-keyboard  noarch  1.2.15-4.fc10                 installed  189 k
>   system-config-network   noarch  1.5.93-2.fc10                 installed  1.8 M
>   system-config-printer   i386    1.0.12-2.fc10                 installed  1.6 M
>   system-config-samba     noarch  1.2.67-3.fc10                 installed  2.1 M
>   system-config-services  noarch  0.99.28-3.fc10                installed  1.5 M
>   xulrunner               i386    1.9.0.5-1.fc10                installed   22 M
>
>  None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but
>  not Gnome.
>  
Yes, I have a lot of *gnome* package in my customized XFCE *only*
desktop spin :-)
That's the life, I have to live with :-)

-- 
http://vnoss.org

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Arthur Pemberton <pemboa(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy
> <gayleard(a)eircom.net&gt; wrote:
> > MKas wrote:
> >
> >> I like KDE, but what I see:
> >>
> >> bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
> >
> > Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
>
>
>  True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more
>  difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
>
>   bluez                   i386    4.19-1.fc10                   installed  979 k
>   firefox                 i386    3.0.5-1.fc10                  installed   14 M
>   firstboot               i386    1.102-1.fc10                  installed  652 k
>   kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10                installed  5.6 M
>   setroubleshoot          noarch  2.0.12-3.fc10                 installed  275 k
>   system-config-date      noarch  1.9.34-1.fc10                 installed  3.8 M
>   system-config-keyboard  noarch  1.2.15-4.fc10                 installed  189 k
>   system-config-network   noarch  1.5.93-2.fc10                 installed  1.8 M
>   system-config-printer   i386    1.0.12-2.fc10                 installed  1.6 M
>   system-config-samba     noarch  1.2.67-3.fc10                 installed  2.1 M
>   system-config-services  noarch  0.99.28-3.fc10                installed  1.5 M
>   xulrunner               i386    1.9.0.5-1.fc10                installed   22 M
>
>  None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but
>  not Gnome.
>
>  One can argue the significance of this, but it makes the argument of
>  KDE being a first class citizen more difficult. 
We went a few rounds about this several months ago. I said at the time
that Fedora is a Gnome platform that also supports KDE, but that
seemed to bother some people (to be clear: I'm a KDE user myself).

However even if this is the case with Fedora, it doesn't mean that
Gnome has "won" in any meaningful sense. There are several popular
distros out there that one could call "KDE based but also supporting
Gnome", Suse being the most obvious example.

poc

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy <gayleard(a)eircom.net&gt; wrote:
>  MKas wrote:
>
> > I like KDE, but what I see:
> >
> > bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
>
>  Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE? 

True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more
difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.

 bluez                   i386    4.19-1.fc10                   installed  979 k
 firefox                 i386    3.0.5-1.fc10                  installed   14 M
 firstboot               i386    1.102-1.fc10                  installed  652 k
 kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10                installed  5.6 M
 setroubleshoot          noarch  2.0.12-3.fc10                 installed  275 k
 system-config-date      noarch  1.9.34-1.fc10                 installed  3.8 M
 system-config-keyboard  noarch  1.2.15-4.fc10                 installed  189 k
 system-config-network   noarch  1.5.93-2.fc10                 installed  1.8 M
 system-config-printer   i386    1.0.12-2.fc10                 installed  1.6 M
 system-config-samba     noarch  1.2.67-3.fc10                 installed  2.1 M
 system-config-services  noarch  0.99.28-3.fc10                installed  1.5 M
 xulrunner               i386    1.9.0.5-1.fc10                installed   22 M

None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but
not Gnome.

One can argue the significance of this, but it makes the argument of
KDE being a first class citizen more difficult.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Timothy Murphy]

MKas wrote:

>  I like KDE, but what I see:
>  
>  bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome* 
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?

-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net
tel: [phone]
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

Security In F/OSS & KDE [Was "Re: is KDE dead - did Gnome win?"]

[Peter Gordon]

On Sun, 2008-12-21 at 14:30 -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
>  [...]
>  several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD,
>  Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security
>  holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble. 
This happens with all software - and is not a trait of KDE alone. This,
I believe, gives Free and Open-source Software ("F/OSS") one of its
major advantages over proprietary alternatives: The entire world, in
theory, has access to peruse through and fix things in the source code -
instead of one company or a subset of people therein. Security issues
are thus found and fixed in a more timely and correct fashion. 
-- 
Peter Gordon (codergeek42) <peter(a)thecodergeek.com&gt;
「ゴードン・ピーター」

[thomas cameron]

Ian Pilcher wrote:
>  Mail Lists wrote:
> >   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
> > or alive ?
>  
>  I'm strongly considering it.  Almost all of the applications that I use
>  regularly are GTK-based anyway, and Red Hat and Fedora have always been
>  more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to
>  continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been
>  sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision. 
Good thing you're not bitter, eh?  :-D

I kid, I kid!

TC

[Armin]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)math.unl.edu&gt; wrote:

>  Armin Moradi wrote:
>
>  >> You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review
>  >> request. ;-)
>  >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199
>  >> I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and
>  then
>  >> we'll see for F10 and F9.
>  >>
>  >>        Kevin Kofler
>  >>
>  >
>  > Thanks! :D  will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till
>  > F11?
>
>  Probably coming with/near kde-4.2, when it lands in updates.
>
>  -- Rex
>
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  Guidelines:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>  
Oh that's perfect, thanks Rex!

-- 
Armin

"Character is a muscle"

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Ian Pilcher <arequipeno(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Armin Moradi wrote:
> > That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the KDE
> > SIG, Fedora is
> > as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
> > difference between
> > them these days!
>
>  Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt. 
What a waste of time that would be. Why would you do that? They are
just system tools. They aren't desktop apps.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Armin]

Although I would like to see the dialog that asks for password, written in Qt
so it would have a more native look.

--
Armin
"Character is a muscle"

[Rex Dieter]

Ian Pilcher wrote:

>  Armin Moradi wrote:
> > That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the KDE
> > SIG, Fedora is
> > as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
> > difference between
> > them these days!
>  
>  Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt. 
Imo, there are much better uses of developer time than to re-write
system-config-* tools in multiple toolkits.  

-- Rex

[Ian Pilcher]

Armin Moradi wrote:
>  That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the
> KDE
>  SIG, Fedora is
>  as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
>  difference between
>  them these days! 
Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno(a)gmail.com
========================================================================

[Kevin Kofler]

Mike Cloaked wrote:
>  I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?) 
No, in kde-redhat.

EPEL is Fedora packages which are not included in RHEL rebuilt for
RHEL/CentOS/Scientific Linux, it has nothing to do with this.

4.1.85 (4.2 Beta 2) is now in kde-redhat's "testing" repository. But please
keep in mind that it is still a beta version. Do not expect that version to
be stable just yet.

        Kevin Kofler

[Kevin Kofler]

Mail Lists wrote:
>    (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE
> dead
>  or alive ? 
Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is any
worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of
those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any
sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as
always.

        Kevin Kofler

[mike cloaked]

Kevin Kofler wrote:
>  
>  
>  Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is
>  any
>  worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of
>  those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any
>  sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as
>  always.
>  
>   
I really do hope that KDE4.2 lives up to expectations. I have until recently
been a loyal user of KDE (from the days of FC1!) but felt I could not use
KDE4.1 as it stands so I have temporarily switched to Gnome for F10. It is
not perfect for some of the things I need though, and I am really hoping
that when KDE4.2 is released to F10 in 2009 that it will be functional to a
level where I can switch back to using KDE again.

I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?) that I believe was
recently made available, but it would be nice to see good reviews and
summaries of what works and what is still missing or buggy so that when it
is released I can feel confident of making the switch back.
-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/is-KDE-dead---did-Gnome-win--tp21118075p21126663.html
Sent from the Fedora List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[mike cloaked]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  
>  
>  I fail to see the importance of what desktop environment a kernel
>  hacker is using. Unless of course you're a kernel hacker yourself.
>  Even then, the DE is entirely userspace.
>  
>   
I guess it is not important but possibly interesting to know his thoughts
since I read some time ago that Linus was a long time avid fan of KDE. I
wondered if he still is a KDE(4) fan, as he uses Fedora I was told, that was
all.
-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/is-KDE-dead---did-Gnome-win--tp21118075p21123952.html
Sent from the Fedora List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Mike Cloaked <mike.cloaked(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Armin Moradi wrote:
> >
> >
> > That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the KDE
> > SIG, Fedora is
> > as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
> > difference between
> > them these days!
> >
> >
>
>  >From reports it looks like KDE4.2 will be really nice - but I wonder which
>  desktop Linus is using at the moment? 
I fail to see the importance of what desktop environment a kernel
hacker is using. Unless of course you're a kernel hacker yourself.
Even then, the DE is entirely userspace.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[mike cloaked]

Armin Moradi wrote:
>  
>  
>  That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the KDE
>  SIG, Fedora is
>  as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
>  difference between
>  them these days!
>  
>   
> From reports it looks like KDE4.2 will be really nice - but I wonder
> which 
desktop Linus is using at the moment?
-- 
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/is-KDE-dead---did-Gnome-win--tp21118075p21123826.html
Sent from the Fedora List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Armin]

>  Red Hat and Fedora have always been
>  more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to
>  continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been
>  sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision. 
That argument is really old.  Nowadays with the great work of the KDE
SIG, Fedora is
as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME.  You see little to no
difference between
them these days!

-- 
Armin

"Character is a muscle"

[Mark]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt; wrote:
>    I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it
>  was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  -
>  easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by
>  contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits  it
>  allowed you to -  you needed in part to learn about its registry which
>  warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use
>  at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through
>  a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
>
>   That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
>  not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
>  like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
>  workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
>  etc etc).
>
>   So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving
>  up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing
>  manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and
>  stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has
>  little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the
>  one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or
>  4.4 or... 5.0 ..
>
>   So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
>
>   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
>  or alive ?
>
>   (2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very
>  similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default
>  (;-).
>
>   Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.
>
>   gene
>  
I will give you my story how i switched from KDE to Gnome.
When i started with linux (the first fedora core versions) i used KDE.
At that time i found configuring KDE needlessly complex and
configuring Gnome was easier but way more limited. Nevertheless i kept
using KDE because it was simply the best for me at that time. And
that's probably because i was fresh from windows and KDE looks the
most like windows when your just switching and then you tend to go
with the environment that your already familiar with. However around
fedora 5 something changed in fedora that made me use gnome. Don't
know what it was. So i started swapping all the time between KDE and
Gnome. then the big differences started to come. compositing became
possible and gnome in combination with my hardware was just working.
kde wasn't. that's when i switched (with regret) to gnome. It doesn't
mean that i liked gnome better but it was simply the best at hand at
that time. Not long after that (or perhaps even before that) firefox
became the unofficial standard in linux distributions and i was (and
still am) a firefox fan and wanted to use it. Firefox looks ugly in
KDE but looks nice in Gnome so that was another reason for me to stick
with gnome.

Now at the present day i see things getting reversed. First gnome was
actively developed and kde was sticking at it's 3.x.x version with not
much noticeable changes that where worth the upgrade (not noticeable
for me) so gnome was just getting better. Now i see gnome lacking
behind kde because they come with new features (noticeable ones!) all
the time and there KDE 4.2 is really looking good. I tried both kde
4.0 and 4.1 but they where way to unstable to be used for my usage.
KDE 4.2 is looking way better from what i've seen but it still seems
to be way to buggy for me to use.

There is one huge issue in KDE. that's also it's biggest feature: QT.
QT seems to have issues with video cards making vesa even faster then
hardware accelerated. that is the case on both my notebook (intel gpu)
and my desktop (nvidia gpu) and weighs heavy in making KDE 4.2
unusable for me. Gnome on the other hand works fine and smooth. There
was a long time for me that i simply couldn't switch to KDE because
the available versions just didn't work out for me how i wanted it.
Now with KDE 4.2 close to getting out there finally is a DE where i
could switch to. Back to the one i came from but if that really is
gonna happen is gonna depend on how stable it works (taskbar resizing
finally works how it should be with the exception of the tray icons)

And about desktop environments for me in general. I like KDE the most
but there is NO desktop environment that provides what i want and
need. Perhaps it's gonna be made by someone someday. perhaps KDE is
gonna be that DE with version 4.5 or 5.0 or 10.0 ;)

Just my story how i switched to gnome.

[Ian Pilcher]

Mail Lists wrote:
>    (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE
> dead
>  or alive ? 
I'm strongly considering it.  Almost all of the applications that I use
regularly are GTK-based anyway, and Red Hat and Fedora have always been
more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to
continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been
sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno(a)gmail.com
========================================================================

[Dave Feustel]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 02:53:23PM -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Feustel
> <dfeustel(a)mindspring.com&gt; wrote:
>  > I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert to
>  > Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because
>  > several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD,
>  > Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security
>  > holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble.
>  
>  Do you have any details on this?
>  
>  > It's
>  > possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to
>  > tell.
>  
>  In that case, maybe you shouldn't associate KDE with this on a public list.
>   
I forgot to mention that I started out using Konqueror, Kmail and
Konsole. I first stopped using Kmail because of persistent bugs, then
Konsole (switched to xterm after konsole began starting with the input
window filling up with unending sequences of 'i' characters), and
finally Konqueror (which had severe dns problems never experienced by
Firefox). In the case of Konqueror, I experienced in the last several
months a sudden increase in new problems with the browser that never
occurred with Firefox. Now if the bugs were in X, then I should see them
occuring with both Xterm and with Firefox, but I have not. So the
evidence indicates the problems are in KDE. I am trying out a variety of
other windows managers to see if the problems that I had with KDE and
Gnome (on Fedora) persist. So far they seem not to.

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Feustel <dfeustel(a)mindspring.com&gt; wrote:
>  I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert
> to
>  Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because
>  several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD,
>  Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security
>  holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble. 
Do you have any details on this?

>  It's
>  possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to
>  tell. 
In that case, maybe you shouldn't associate KDE with this on a public list.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Dave Feustel]

I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert to
Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because
several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD,
Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security
holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble. It's
possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to
tell.

[Rafnews]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt; wrote:

>    I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it
>  was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted  -
>  easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by
>  contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits  it
>  allowed you to -  you needed in part to learn about its registry which
>  warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use
>  at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through
>  a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
>
>   That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
>  not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
>  like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
>  workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
>  etc etc).
>
>   So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving
>  up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing
>  manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and
>  stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has
>  little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the
>  one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or
>  4.4 or... 5.0 ..
>
>   So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
>
>   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead
>  or alive ?
>
>   (2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very
>  similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default
>  (;-).
>
>   Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.
>
>   gene
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  Guidelines:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>  
Personally i've just installed Fedora 10 and now i'm installing KDE 4.1.3.
I like the interface and color choice.
For now i just found in Gnome the terminal features nice...lkike transparent
background... but the menu by itself is horrible as usual :-(
as i come from Windows world the desktop environment in KDE is much more
usable as gnome.

Alain

[Michael Comperchio]

Robin Laing wrote:
>  Craig White wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
> >>  
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
> >> wrote:
>  \SNIP
>
> > the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE
> > to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
> >
>  When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so 
>  frustrated.  I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work 
>  but that was my fault.  I didn't know about the session selector in 
>  GDM and was trying switch desktop function.
>
>  After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations.  Some nice 
>  improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS 
>  Windows.  No real control to improve the efficiency.
>
>  KDE 4.1 is pretty good.  I am having some weird issues that I don't 
>  like but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes.  I 
>  hear 4.2 is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really 
>  happy.  Of course that is after I change the menu back to the classic 
>  menu from the Vista like menu.
>
>  My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of 
>  Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
>
>
>
>
> > I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than
> > GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
>
>  I will drink to that.  To each their own.  The person that turned me 
>  onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 
>  4.2 comes out.
>
>  
I've went back to GNOME after the third time I had to press the hard 
reset button on the front of the machine. This is *nix, and my memories 
of *nix based OS is from SCO. In the 90's I worked for NASDAQ and their  
(at the time) communications machines ran SCO, we had boxes that had 
up-times measured in years. So, when KDE 4.1 (this is from the 
downloaded F10 DVD I did ... maybe two and a half weeks ago) hung hard 
enough to need to reset button, it was time to switch. I haven't 
rebooted since.... now if only I could sync with my lifedrive...

Michael

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Armin <feng.shaun(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Friday 02 January 2009 16:15:35 Ambrogio wrote:
> > On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
> > > That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure,
> > > not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I
> > > like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the
> > > workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session
> > > etc etc).
> >
> > And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications.
> > I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some
> > other gnome application.
> > Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.
> >
> > Bye
> >  Ambrogio 


>  Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on
> my nerves. 
Thank you, I was wondering if I was alone.

>  Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2?  And plus, if you love
> evolution, why not
>  just use gnome. 
Fair point. I prefer Thunderbird myself, but I am trying out Kmail

>  KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that
>  evolution 
True, KMail has been quite buggy for me though

>  and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE.
>
>  Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs.  They have
>  *re-written* most of KDE 
Kmail looks to be the old one though. Well, the entire Kontact suite
seems to be 3.5.x

>  , and with great change comes great problems.  Use it,
>  love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)
>
>  If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports,
>  documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs.  It's
>  that easy!
>
>  On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE
>  3.x. 
True

>  And well, I won't forget to mention, Happy new year :)
>  --
>  Armin 
Peace.

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[potat0]

I like KDE, but what I see:

bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*  
Resolution                                              

Dependencies Resolved

================================================================================
 Package                 Arch    Version                       Repository  Size 
================================================================================
Removing:                                                                       
 NetworkManager-gnome    i386    1:0.7.0-0.12.svn4326.fc10     installed  889 k 
 PolicyKit-gnome         i386    0.9-3.fc10                    installed  398 k 
 PolicyKit-gnome-libs    i386    0.9-3.fc10                    installed   40 k 
 bluez-gnome             i386    1.8-8.fc10                    installed  632 k 
 fedora-gnome-theme      noarch  8.0.0-7.fc10                  installed   18 k 
 gnome-desktop           i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  2.7 M 
 gnome-icon-theme        noarch  2.24.0-1.fc10                 installed   11 M 
 gnome-keyring           i386    2.24.1-1.fc10                 installed  2.3 M 
 gnome-keyring-pam       i386    2.24.1-1.fc10                 installed   32 k 
 gnome-menus             i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  680 k 
 gnome-mime-data         noarch  2.18.0-3.fc10                 installed  3.5 M 
 gnome-mount             i386    0.8-1.fc9                     installed  575 k 
 gnome-panel             i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  9.3 M 
 gnome-panel-libs        i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed   56 k 
 gnome-python2           i386    2.22.3-1.fc10                 installed   95 k 
 gnome-python2-bonobo    i386    2.22.3-1.fc10                 installed  317 k 
 gnome-python2-canvas    i386    2.22.3-1.fc10                 installed   60 k 
 gnome-python2-extras    i386    2.19.1-25.fc10                installed  260 k 
 gnome-python2-gnome     i386    2.22.3-1.fc10                 installed  306 k 
 gnome-python2-gnomevfs  i386    2.22.3-1.fc10                 installed  301 k 
 gnome-python2-gtkhtml2  i386    2.19.1-25.fc10                installed   18 k 
 gnome-session           i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  1.8 M 
 gnome-session-xsession  i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  4.6 k 
 gnome-settings-daemon   i386    2.24.1-3.fc10                 installed  1.7 M 
 gnome-themes            noarch  2.24.1-1.fc10                 installed  3.9 M 
 gnome-vfs2              i386    2.24.0-3.fc10                 installed  3.1 M 
 libgail-gnome           i386    1.20.1-1.fc10                 installed   50 k 
 libgnome                i386    2.24.1-7.fc10                 installed  2.8 M 
 libgnomecanvas          i386    2.20.1.1-4.fc10               installed  829 k 
 libgnomekbd             i386    2.24.0-1.fc10                 installed  629 k 
 libgnomeui              i386    2.24.0-2.fc10                 installed  3.4 M 
 nodoka-theme-gnome      noarch  0.3.90-2.fc10                 installed   19 k 
Removing for dependencies:                                                      
 bluez                   i386    4.19-1.fc10                   installed  979 k 
 control-center          i386    1:2.24.0.1-9.fc10             installed  7.1 M 
 eel2                    i386    2.24.1-4.fc10                 installed  704 k 
 evolution-data-server   i386    2.24.2-1.fc10                 installed   11 M 
 fedora-icon-theme       noarch  1.0.0-4.fc10                  installed  114 k
 firefox                 i386    3.0.5-1.fc10                  installed   14 M
 firstboot               i386    1.102-1.fc10                  installed  652 k
 gdm                     i386    1:2.24.0-12.fc10              installed  3.2 M
 gtkhtml2                i386    2.11.1-4.fc10                 installed  441 k
 gtkhtml3                i386    3.24.2-1.fc10                 installed  3.3 M
 gvfs                    i386    1.0.3-4.fc10                  installed  3.2 M
 gvfs-obexftp            i386    1.0.3-4.fc10                  installed  131 k
 kdeutils                i386    6:4.1.3-1.fc10                installed  5.6 M
 krb5-auth-dialog        i386    0.7-7.fc9                     installed   52 k
 libbonoboui             i386    2.24.0-1.fc10                 installed  1.1 M
 mysql-query-browser     i386    5.0r12-9.fc10                 installed  4.3 M
 plymouth-gdm-hooks      i386    0.6.0-0.2008.11.17.3.fc10     installed   171
 policycoreutils-gui     i386    2.0.57-14.fc10                installed  666 k
 setroubleshoot          noarch  2.0.12-3.fc10                 installed  275 k
 system-config-date      noarch  1.9.34-1.fc10                 installed  3.8 M
 system-config-keyboard  noarch  1.2.15-4.fc10                 installed  189 k
 system-config-network   noarch  1.5.93-2.fc10                 installed  1.8 M
 system-config-printer   i386    1.0.12-2.fc10                 installed  1.6 M
 system-config-samba     noarch  1.2.67-3.fc10                 installed  2.1 M
 system-config-services  noarch  0.99.28-3.fc10                installed  1.5 M
 xine-lib-extras         i386    1.1.15-3.fc10                 installed  197 k
 xulrunner               i386    1.9.0.5-1.fc10                installed   22 M
 zenity                  i386    2.24.0-2.fc10                 installed  3.2 M


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[Ian Pilcher]

Rex Dieter wrote:
>  Imo, there are much better uses of developer time than to re-write
>  system-config-* tools in multiple toolkits.   
I never claimed otherwise.

-- 
========================================================================
Ian Pilcher                                         arequipeno(a)gmail.com
========================================================================

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt; wrote:
>  
[ snip ]

>   (1)  Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE
> dead
>  or alive ? 
KDE has never been more alive. I stiull prefer it to Windows, MacOS and Gnome

>   (2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all
> very
>  similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default 
KDE is far from similar in function to Gnome last I checked. That's
near an insult to KDE.


-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Ian Pilcher <arequipeno(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  As a final point, let me say that I absolutely do not blame any of the
>  Fedora developers, the KDE SIG, etc., for this situation.  From my
>  perspective, this is entirely the fault of the KDE developers who
>  decided it is OK to remove longstanding functionality because plasmoids
>  (whatever they are) are going to be really cool someday. 
Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as 'has not
yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been
removed from KDE 4.x?

-- 
Fedora 9 : sulphur is good for the skin
( www.pembo13.com )

[Kevin Kofler]

Alain Roger wrote:
>  For now i just found in Gnome the terminal features nice...lkike
>  transparent background... but the menu by itself is horrible as usual :-( 
Konsole can also do transparent background (it's set up in your Konsole
color scheme), but only if you have desktop effects enabled in the window
manager (because it's true transparency, not fake transparency).

        Kevin Kofler

[Robin Laing]

Craig White wrote:
>  On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
> >  
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists <lists(a)sapience.com&gt;
> > wrote: 
\SNIP

>  the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from
> KDE
>  to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
>  
When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so 
frustrated.  I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work but 
that was my fault.  I didn't know about the session selector in GDM and 
was trying switch desktop function.

After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations.  Some nice 
improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS 
Windows.  No real control to improve the efficiency.

KDE 4.1 is pretty good.  I am having some weird issues that I don't like 
but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes.  I hear 4.2 
is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy.  Of course 
that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista 
like menu.

My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs 
and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.




>  I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than
>  GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
>  
>  Craig
>  
>   
I will drink to that.  To each their own.  The person that turned me 
onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 
4.2 comes out.


-- 
Robin Laing

[Craig White]

On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 12:07 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig White
> <craigwhite(a)azapple.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:51 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  >
>  >> I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I
>  >> switched from Gnome to KDE.
>  > ----
>  > I thought that was what blogs are for.
>  >
>  > Craig
>  
>  
>  This thread suggests otherwise. 
----
Go to dailykos.com and see their dictionary for gbcw...

Always good when done with dramatic flair even if entirely pointless

Craig