I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted - easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits it allowed you to - you needed in part to learn about its registry which warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or 4.4 or... 5.0 ..
So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
(2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default (;-).
Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.
gene
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted - easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits it allowed you to - you needed in part to learn about its registry which warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or 4.4 or... 5.0 ..
So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
(2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default (;-).
Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.
gene
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Personally i've just installed Fedora 10 and now i'm installing KDE 4.1.3. I like the interface and color choice. For now i just found in Gnome the terminal features nice...lkike transparent background... but the menu by itself is horrible as usual :-( as i come from Windows world the desktop environment in KDE is much more usable as gnome.
Alain
Alain Roger wrote:
For now i just found in Gnome the terminal features nice...lkike transparent background... but the menu by itself is horrible as usual :-(
Konsole can also do transparent background (it's set up in your Konsole color scheme), but only if you have desktop effects enabled in the window manager (because it's true transparency, not fake transparency).
Kevin Kofler
I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert to Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD, Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble. It's possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to tell.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Feustel dfeustel@mindspring.com wrote:
I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert to Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD, Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble.
Do you have any details on this?
It's possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to tell.
In that case, maybe you shouldn't associate KDE with this on a public list.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 02:53:23PM -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Dave Feustel dfeustel@mindspring.com wrote:
I was a die-hard KDE/Konqueror user. But became an instant convert to Firefox when I discovered NoScript. Now I have stopped using KDE because several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD, Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble.
Do you have any details on this?
It's possible that the bugs or security holes are in X itself - it's hard to tell.
In that case, maybe you shouldn't associate KDE with this on a public list.
I forgot to mention that I started out using Konqueror, Kmail and Konsole. I first stopped using Kmail because of persistent bugs, then Konsole (switched to xterm after konsole began starting with the input window filling up with unending sequences of 'i' characters), and finally Konqueror (which had severe dns problems never experienced by Firefox). In the case of Konqueror, I experienced in the last several months a sudden increase in new problems with the browser that never occurred with Firefox. Now if the bugs were in X, then I should see them occuring with both Xterm and with Firefox, but I have not. So the evidence indicates the problems are in KDE. I am trying out a variety of other windows managers to see if the problems that I had with KDE and Gnome (on Fedora) persist. So far they seem not to.
On Sun, 2008-12-21 at 14:30 -0500, Dave Feustel wrote:
[...] several years of experience with it on 4 different platforms (OpenBSD, Fedora, OpenSuse, and FreeBSD) have convinced me that KDE has security holes (or bugs) which permit exploits which cause me lots of trouble.
This happens with all software - and is not a trait of KDE alone. This, I believe, gives Free and Open-source Software ("F/OSS") one of its major advantages over proprietary alternatives: The entire world, in theory, has access to peruse through and fix things in the source code - instead of one company or a subset of people therein. Security issues are thus found and fixed in a more timely and correct fashion.
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
[ snip ]
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
KDE has never been more alive. I stiull prefer it to Windows, MacOS and Gnome
(2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default
KDE is far from similar in function to Gnome last I checked. That's near an insult to KDE.
Hi
2008/12/21 Mail Lists lists@sapience.com:
I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted - easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits it allowed you to - you needed in part to learn about its registry which warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
I have used the Gnome 2.* series for a couple of years, and I find most of your bad points regarding it at least biased, others completely false. However, that's a bit off-topic to this thread, so I'd rather not discuss them here unnecessarily.
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
I haven't found KDE 4 any harder to configure than the KDE 3 series, though I can find the things I want to configure a lot better than before due to the cleaned-up and better organised configuration tool.
At least the taskbar is a lot more configurable in KDE 4.2 than in the current KDE 4.1. I didn't understand the part about workspace chooser, though.
So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or 4.4 or... 5.0 ..
Gnome is nowadays (mostly) very stable and mature, and it works well for millions of people. It is also easy to use and has sane default settings which usually require little or even no tweaking. It's a great choice for a default desktop environment.
However, I have lately found Gnome a bit dull and boring, and have instead started using KDE 4, which is getting tons of new developments and opening new possibilities. To top it off, it also looks very good. (Subject for debate! :-)
So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
I have never seen KDE more alive than today. I wondered the same question a couple of years earlier, when KDE 3 seemed to progress nowhere and KDE 4 was still mostly mockups and speculation.
(2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default (;-).
When I started using GNU/Linux, I used to hop between KDE, Gnome and other alternatives a lot, eventually settling on Gnome because it just felt a lot better designed and polished. Now that KDE 4 is making great progress, however, I just had to check it out and start using it, even with its current little problems.
I miss the spatial file manager from Gnome, but I can manage to do what I want to, even without it :-)
Mail Lists wrote:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
I'm strongly considering it. Almost all of the applications that I use regularly are GTK-based anyway, and Red Hat and Fedora have always been more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision.
Red Hat and Fedora have always been more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision.
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
Armin Moradi wrote:
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
From reports it looks like KDE4.2 will be really nice - but I wonder which
desktop Linus is using at the moment?
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Mike Cloaked mike.cloaked@gmail.com wrote:
Armin Moradi wrote:
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
From reports it looks like KDE4.2 will be really nice - but I wonder which
desktop Linus is using at the moment?
I fail to see the importance of what desktop environment a kernel hacker is using. Unless of course you're a kernel hacker yourself. Even then, the DE is entirely userspace.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
I fail to see the importance of what desktop environment a kernel hacker is using. Unless of course you're a kernel hacker yourself. Even then, the DE is entirely userspace.
I guess it is not important but possibly interesting to know his thoughts since I read some time ago that Linus was a long time avid fan of KDE. I wondered if he still is a KDE(4) fan, as he uses Fedora I was told, that was all.
Armin Moradi wrote:
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt.
Ian Pilcher wrote:
Armin Moradi wrote:
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt.
Imo, there are much better uses of developer time than to re-write system-config-* tools in multiple toolkits.
-- Rex
Rex Dieter wrote:
Imo, there are much better uses of developer time than to re-write system-config-* tools in multiple toolkits.
I never claimed otherwise.
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Ian Pilcher arequipeno@gmail.com wrote:
Armin Moradi wrote:
That argument is really old. Nowadays with the great work of the KDE SIG, Fedora is as much KDE centred as it is focused on GNOME. You see little to no difference between them these days!
Call me when system-config-* is written in Qt.
What a waste of time that would be. Why would you do that? They are just system tools. They aren't desktop apps.
Ian Pilcher wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
I'm strongly considering it. Almost all of the applications that I use regularly are GTK-based anyway, and Red Hat and Fedora have always been more focused on GNOME than KDE, so it's hard to see any reason to continue with KDE now that the things that I like about it have been sacrificed on the altar of the KDE developers' grand vision.
Good thing you're not bitter, eh? :-D
I kid, I kid!
TC
On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted - easily and simply. It had a very nice configuration manager. Gnome by contrast was rigid, inflexible and to configure it - the bits it allowed you to - you needed in part to learn about its registry which warned you that the registry editor may corrupt things in bad ways - use at your risk. Gnome was undergoing rapid changes - metacity went through a lot before it was stable .. kde all the while was pretty stable.
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
So what I am seeing is some of the KDE users I know are slowly giving up and moving back to gnome - its the default windowing manager/environment on fedora and ubuntu and seems more mature and stable than KDE 4 - and since as far as configurability goes, KDE has little advantage to offer at this time. Perhaps the next version, or the one after that will bring back the advantages. Maybe by 4.2 or 4.3 or 4.4 or... 5.0 ..
So seeking guidance from the path others are choosing:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
(2) Are there fedora Gnome users moving to KDE ? It is after all very similar in its function now ... and does not use spatial mode by default (;-).
Be very interested in hearing what thoughts others are having.
gene
I will give you my story how i switched from KDE to Gnome. When i started with linux (the first fedora core versions) i used KDE. At that time i found configuring KDE needlessly complex and configuring Gnome was easier but way more limited. Nevertheless i kept using KDE because it was simply the best for me at that time. And that's probably because i was fresh from windows and KDE looks the most like windows when your just switching and then you tend to go with the environment that your already familiar with. However around fedora 5 something changed in fedora that made me use gnome. Don't know what it was. So i started swapping all the time between KDE and Gnome. then the big differences started to come. compositing became possible and gnome in combination with my hardware was just working. kde wasn't. that's when i switched (with regret) to gnome. It doesn't mean that i liked gnome better but it was simply the best at hand at that time. Not long after that (or perhaps even before that) firefox became the unofficial standard in linux distributions and i was (and still am) a firefox fan and wanted to use it. Firefox looks ugly in KDE but looks nice in Gnome so that was another reason for me to stick with gnome.
Now at the present day i see things getting reversed. First gnome was actively developed and kde was sticking at it's 3.x.x version with not much noticeable changes that where worth the upgrade (not noticeable for me) so gnome was just getting better. Now i see gnome lacking behind kde because they come with new features (noticeable ones!) all the time and there KDE 4.2 is really looking good. I tried both kde 4.0 and 4.1 but they where way to unstable to be used for my usage. KDE 4.2 is looking way better from what i've seen but it still seems to be way to buggy for me to use.
There is one huge issue in KDE. that's also it's biggest feature: QT. QT seems to have issues with video cards making vesa even faster then hardware accelerated. that is the case on both my notebook (intel gpu) and my desktop (nvidia gpu) and weighs heavy in making KDE 4.2 unusable for me. Gnome on the other hand works fine and smooth. There was a long time for me that i simply couldn't switch to KDE because the available versions just didn't work out for me how i wanted it. Now with KDE 4.2 close to getting out there finally is a DE where i could switch to. Back to the one i came from but if that really is gonna happen is gonna depend on how stable it works (taskbar resizing finally works how it should be with the exception of the tray icons)
And about desktop environments for me in general. I like KDE the most but there is NO desktop environment that provides what i want and need. Perhaps it's gonna be made by someone someday. perhaps KDE is gonna be that DE with version 4.5 or 5.0 or 10.0 ;)
Just my story how i switched to gnome.
Mail Lists wrote:
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is any worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as always.
Kevin Kofler
Kevin Kofler wrote:
Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is any worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as always.
I really do hope that KDE4.2 lives up to expectations. I have until recently been a loyal user of KDE (from the days of FC1!) but felt I could not use KDE4.1 as it stands so I have temporarily switched to Gnome for F10. It is not perfect for some of the things I need though, and I am really hoping that when KDE4.2 is released to F10 in 2009 that it will be functional to a level where I can switch back to using KDE again.
I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?) that I believe was recently made available, but it would be nice to see good reviews and summaries of what works and what is still missing or buggy so that when it is released I can feel confident of making the switch back.
Mike Cloaked wrote:
I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?)
No, in kde-redhat.
EPEL is Fedora packages which are not included in RHEL rebuilt for RHEL/CentOS/Scientific Linux, it has nothing to do with this.
4.1.85 (4.2 Beta 2) is now in kde-redhat's "testing" repository. But please keep in mind that it is still a beta version. Do not expect that version to be stable just yet.
Kevin Kofler
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Mike Cloaked mike.cloaked@gmail.com wrote:
Kevin Kofler wrote:
Nope, I'm still using and comaintaining KDE, I don't see how KDE 4.1 is any worse than 3.5. Well, there's a couple of missing features, but most of those are coming back in 4.2. I don't think switching to GNOME makes any sense, really, but of course you're free to use whatever you prefer, as always.
I really do hope that KDE4.2 lives up to expectations. I have until recently been a loyal user of KDE (from the days of FC1!) but felt I could not use KDE4.1 as it stands so I have temporarily switched to Gnome for F10. It is not perfect for some of the things I need though, and I am really hoping that when KDE4.2 is released to F10 in 2009 that it will be functional to a level where I can switch back to using KDE again.
I have not tried the KDE 4.2 test version (in EPEL?) that I believe was recently made available, but it would be nice to see good reviews and summaries of what works and what is still missing or buggy so that when it is released I can feel confident of making the switch back. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/is-KDE-dead---did-Gnome-win--tp21118075p21126663.html Sent from the Fedora List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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I will tell you my opinion. KDE 4.2 (beta 2 for now) has lived up to more than my expectations. I don't really know what you guys expect from it, but it satisfies all of my needs and luxury desires.
Although I would like to see the dialog that asks for password, written in Qt so it would have a more native look.
-- Armin "Character is a muscle"
Armin Moradi wrote:
Although I would like to see the dialog that asks for password, written in Qt so it would have a more native look.
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then we'll see for F10 and F9.
Kevin Kofler
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then we'll see for F10 and F9.
Does that provide a KDE equivalent to the polkit-gnome-authorization gui?
-jef
Jeff Spaleta wrote:
On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then we'll see for F10 and F9.
Does that provide a KDE equivalent to the polkit-gnome-authorization gui?
As I understand it, yes.
-- Rex
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then we'll see for F10 and F9.
Kevin Kofler
Thanks! :D will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till F11?
Armin Moradi wrote:
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and then we'll see for F10 and F9.
Kevin KoflerThanks! :D will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till F11?
Probably coming with/near kde-4.2, when it lands in updates.
-- Rex
On Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Rex Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu wrote:
Armin Moradi wrote:
You mean the PolicyKit prompts? Santa is bringing you this review request. ;-) https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=477199 I'm doing the review, I think we can get this into Rawhide soon, and
then
we'll see for F10 and F9.
Kevin KoflerThanks! :D will it be pushed as an update to F10? or should we wait till F11?
Probably coming with/near kde-4.2, when it lands in updates.
-- Rex
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Oh that's perfect, thanks Rex!
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome* Resolution
Dependencies Resolved
================================================================================ Package Arch Version Repository Size ================================================================================ Removing: NetworkManager-gnome i386 1:0.7.0-0.12.svn4326.fc10 installed 889 k PolicyKit-gnome i386 0.9-3.fc10 installed 398 k PolicyKit-gnome-libs i386 0.9-3.fc10 installed 40 k bluez-gnome i386 1.8-8.fc10 installed 632 k fedora-gnome-theme noarch 8.0.0-7.fc10 installed 18 k gnome-desktop i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 2.7 M gnome-icon-theme noarch 2.24.0-1.fc10 installed 11 M gnome-keyring i386 2.24.1-1.fc10 installed 2.3 M gnome-keyring-pam i386 2.24.1-1.fc10 installed 32 k gnome-menus i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 680 k gnome-mime-data noarch 2.18.0-3.fc10 installed 3.5 M gnome-mount i386 0.8-1.fc9 installed 575 k gnome-panel i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 9.3 M gnome-panel-libs i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 56 k gnome-python2 i386 2.22.3-1.fc10 installed 95 k gnome-python2-bonobo i386 2.22.3-1.fc10 installed 317 k gnome-python2-canvas i386 2.22.3-1.fc10 installed 60 k gnome-python2-extras i386 2.19.1-25.fc10 installed 260 k gnome-python2-gnome i386 2.22.3-1.fc10 installed 306 k gnome-python2-gnomevfs i386 2.22.3-1.fc10 installed 301 k gnome-python2-gtkhtml2 i386 2.19.1-25.fc10 installed 18 k gnome-session i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 1.8 M gnome-session-xsession i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 4.6 k gnome-settings-daemon i386 2.24.1-3.fc10 installed 1.7 M gnome-themes noarch 2.24.1-1.fc10 installed 3.9 M gnome-vfs2 i386 2.24.0-3.fc10 installed 3.1 M libgail-gnome i386 1.20.1-1.fc10 installed 50 k libgnome i386 2.24.1-7.fc10 installed 2.8 M libgnomecanvas i386 2.20.1.1-4.fc10 installed 829 k libgnomekbd i386 2.24.0-1.fc10 installed 629 k libgnomeui i386 2.24.0-2.fc10 installed 3.4 M nodoka-theme-gnome noarch 0.3.90-2.fc10 installed 19 k Removing for dependencies: bluez i386 4.19-1.fc10 installed 979 k control-center i386 1:2.24.0.1-9.fc10 installed 7.1 M eel2 i386 2.24.1-4.fc10 installed 704 k evolution-data-server i386 2.24.2-1.fc10 installed 11 M fedora-icon-theme noarch 1.0.0-4.fc10 installed 114 k firefox i386 3.0.5-1.fc10 installed 14 M firstboot i386 1.102-1.fc10 installed 652 k gdm i386 1:2.24.0-12.fc10 installed 3.2 M gtkhtml2 i386 2.11.1-4.fc10 installed 441 k gtkhtml3 i386 3.24.2-1.fc10 installed 3.3 M gvfs i386 1.0.3-4.fc10 installed 3.2 M gvfs-obexftp i386 1.0.3-4.fc10 installed 131 k kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M krb5-auth-dialog i386 0.7-7.fc9 installed 52 k libbonoboui i386 2.24.0-1.fc10 installed 1.1 M mysql-query-browser i386 5.0r12-9.fc10 installed 4.3 M plymouth-gdm-hooks i386 0.6.0-0.2008.11.17.3.fc10 installed 171 policycoreutils-gui i386 2.0.57-14.fc10 installed 666 k setroubleshoot noarch 2.0.12-3.fc10 installed 275 k system-config-date noarch 1.9.34-1.fc10 installed 3.8 M system-config-keyboard noarch 1.2.15-4.fc10 installed 189 k system-config-network noarch 1.5.93-2.fc10 installed 1.8 M system-config-printer i386 1.0.12-2.fc10 installed 1.6 M system-config-samba noarch 1.2.67-3.fc10 installed 2.1 M system-config-services noarch 0.99.28-3.fc10 installed 1.5 M xine-lib-extras i386 1.1.15-3.fc10 installed 197 k xulrunner i386 1.9.0.5-1.fc10 installed 22 M zenity i386 2.24.0-2.fc10 installed 3.2 M
MKas wrote:
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
MKas wrote:
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
bluez i386 4.19-1.fc10 installed 979 k firefox i386 3.0.5-1.fc10 installed 14 M firstboot i386 1.102-1.fc10 installed 652 k kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M setroubleshoot noarch 2.0.12-3.fc10 installed 275 k system-config-date noarch 1.9.34-1.fc10 installed 3.8 M system-config-keyboard noarch 1.2.15-4.fc10 installed 189 k system-config-network noarch 1.5.93-2.fc10 installed 1.8 M system-config-printer i386 1.0.12-2.fc10 installed 1.6 M system-config-samba noarch 1.2.67-3.fc10 installed 2.1 M system-config-services noarch 0.99.28-3.fc10 installed 1.5 M xulrunner i386 1.9.0.5-1.fc10 installed 22 M
None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but not Gnome.
One can argue the significance of this, but it makes the argument of KDE being a first class citizen more difficult.
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Arthur Pemberton pemboa@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
MKas wrote:
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
bluez i386 4.19-1.fc10 installed 979 k firefox i386 3.0.5-1.fc10 installed 14 M firstboot i386 1.102-1.fc10 installed 652 k kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M setroubleshoot noarch 2.0.12-3.fc10 installed 275 k system-config-date noarch 1.9.34-1.fc10 installed 3.8 M system-config-keyboard noarch 1.2.15-4.fc10 installed 189 k system-config-network noarch 1.5.93-2.fc10 installed 1.8 M system-config-printer i386 1.0.12-2.fc10 installed 1.6 M system-config-samba noarch 1.2.67-3.fc10 installed 2.1 M system-config-services noarch 0.99.28-3.fc10 installed 1.5 M xulrunner i386 1.9.0.5-1.fc10 installed 22 M
None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but not Gnome.
One can argue the significance of this, but it makes the argument of KDE being a first class citizen more difficult.
We went a few rounds about this several months ago. I said at the time that Fedora is a Gnome platform that also supports KDE, but that seemed to bother some people (to be clear: I'm a KDE user myself).
However even if this is the case with Fedora, it doesn't mean that Gnome has "won" in any meaningful sense. There are several popular distros out there that one could call "KDE based but also supporting Gnome", Suse being the most obvious example.
poc
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
We went a few rounds about this several months ago. I said at the time that Fedora is a Gnome platform that also supports KDE, but that seemed to bother some people (to be clear: I'm a KDE user myself).
However even if this is the case with Fedora, it doesn't mean that Gnome has "won" in any meaningful sense. There are several popular distros out there that one could call "KDE based but also supporting Gnome", Suse being the most obvious example.
As the person that kicked off this little sub-thread, let me chime in and agree with Patrick's statement. I never said (nor did I mean to imply) that there is anything wrong with Fedora's "GNOME-centricity".
The point I was trying to make is that KDE users have often had a some- what more difficult time getting everything to work smoothly than have GNOME users. This tends to show up in areas like fonts and colors in GTK+ applications and the integration of the desktop with lower-level hardware-related stuff.
In the past, I accepted these inconveniences, because I found KDE to be a more productive environment. With the EOL of KDE 3, that is decidedly no longer the case (for me). Why then, should I continue to accept the negative aspects of running KDE on Fedora when the positive aspects no longer exist?
As a final point, let me say that I absolutely do not blame any of the Fedora developers, the KDE SIG, etc., for this situation. From my perspective, this is entirely the fault of the KDE developers who decided it is OK to remove longstanding functionality because plasmoids (whatever they are) are going to be really cool someday.
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Ian Pilcher arequipeno@gmail.com wrote:
Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: As a final point, let me say that I absolutely do not blame any of the Fedora developers, the KDE SIG, etc., for this situation. From my perspective, this is entirely the fault of the KDE developers who decided it is OK to remove longstanding functionality because plasmoids (whatever they are) are going to be really cool someday.
Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as 'has not yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been removed from KDE 4.x?
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as 'has not yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been removed from KDE 4.x?
If it hadn't been removed, it wouldn't need adding back.
Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right now. This is an area in which KDE 3.5 is far ahead of GNOME. OTOH, I find KDE 4 to be completely unusable on a dual-head setup.
On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Ian Pilcher arequipeno@gmail.com wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Taking note that 'removed functionality' is not the same as 'has not yet been added back', what functionality do you need that has been removed from KDE 4.x?
If it hadn't been removed, it wouldn't need adding back.
Well just needs adding, not adding back. They started the code base fresh as far as I understand... which means it hasn't been removed.
Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right now. This is an area in which KDE 3.5 is far ahead of GNOME. OTOH, I find KDE 4 to be completely unusable on a dual-head setup.
I thought dual head was mostly an X issue.
On Tuesday 30 December 2008 14:00:22 Ian Pilcher wrote:
Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right now.
I tried to find out the current state of this, for you. Here are the replies I've received so far:
1) Dual monitor as in Xinerama or NVidia's TwinView?
I've been using that forever, since I first started using KDE 4. The only thing that annoyed me in the beginning was the inability to add a Plasma panel to the right screen. That has been fixed for a long while (though that might mean it's a KDE 4.2 fix).
2) I had a very bad experience with a dual monitor in KDE4.2b2, and after I spoke with a very nice guy in #kwin (his name started with Z, iirc) that explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor and you configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR that is under development but is not complete, while there is a way through Xorg to configure correctly the dual monitor (I don't had enough time to test this way)
3) My experience: If its setup via xorg.conf statically it works quite well (can't recall any plasma problems with that). Dynamically enabling a monitor via xrandr still doesn't work, it crashes kwin endlessly (i.e. its unusable) and IIRC also plasma still has a problem with that (didn't notice the new screen and hence didn't setup a containment for it).
I guess that whatever it was I read (probably in a developer's blog) it was talking about a new commit that brings this nearer. It sounds to me as though it will not be ready/complete when 4.2 is released.
If I get anything more concrete I'll pass it on.
Anne
On Wednesday 31 December 2008 08:16:44 Anne Wilson wrote:
On Tuesday 30 December 2008 14:00:22 Ian Pilcher wrote:
Proper dual-head support is the omission that affects me the most right now.
I tried to find out the current state of this, for you. Here are the replies I've received so far:
- Dual monitor as in Xinerama or NVidia's TwinView?
I've been using that forever, since I first started using KDE 4. The only thing that annoyed me in the beginning was the inability to add a Plasma panel to the right screen. That has been fixed for a long while (though that might mean it's a KDE 4.2 fix).
- I had a very bad experience with a dual monitor in KDE4.2b2, and after I
spoke with a very nice guy in #kwin (his name started with Z, iirc) that explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor and you configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR that is under development but is not complete, while there is a way through Xorg to configure correctly the dual monitor (I don't had enough time to test this way)
- My experience: If its setup via xorg.conf statically it works quite well
(can't recall any plasma problems with that). Dynamically enabling a monitor via xrandr still doesn't work, it crashes kwin endlessly (i.e. its unusable) and IIRC also plasma still has a problem with that (didn't notice the new screen and hence didn't setup a containment for it).
I guess that whatever it was I read (probably in a developer's blog) it was talking about a new commit that brings this nearer. It sounds to me as though it will not be ready/complete when 4.2 is released.
If I get anything more concrete I'll pass it on.
One other person said that he has twinview working in 4.1.3. Does that help?
Anne
Anne Wilson wrote:
I tried to find out the current state of this, for you.
The echos I got from upstream are that it should be way better in 4.2 than 4.1. They implemented a new library called Kephal in kdebase-workspace which is designed to improve multi-monitor support.
explaned me that if you start KDE and after you plug-in the monitor and you configure it from the System Setting you are using XRenderR
That would be XRandR (X Resize and Rotate - its original functionality was to allow "resizing" (i.e. switching the resolution of) or rotating the screen without restarting X11, support for adding/removing screens has been added later).
Kevin Kofler
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:32 PM, Arthur Pemberton pemboa@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
MKas wrote:
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
bluez i386 4.19-1.fc10 installed 979 k firefox i386 3.0.5-1.fc10 installed 14 M firstboot i386 1.102-1.fc10 installed 652 k kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M setroubleshoot noarch 2.0.12-3.fc10 installed 275 k system-config-date noarch 1.9.34-1.fc10 installed 3.8 M system-config-keyboard noarch 1.2.15-4.fc10 installed 189 k system-config-network noarch 1.5.93-2.fc10 installed 1.8 M system-config-printer i386 1.0.12-2.fc10 installed 1.6 M system-config-samba noarch 1.2.67-3.fc10 installed 2.1 M system-config-services noarch 0.99.28-3.fc10 installed 1.5 M xulrunner i386 1.9.0.5-1.fc10 installed 22 M
None of the above should need gnome libs to work. gtk libs, sure.. but not Gnome.
Yes, I have a lot of *gnome* package in my customized XFCE *only* desktop spin :-) That's the life, I have to live with :-)
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 7:28 AM, Timothy Murphy gayleard@eircom.net wrote:
MKas wrote:
I like KDE, but what I see:
bash-3.2# yum remove *gnome*
Surely you don't have to remove *gnome* in order to use KDE?
True. But it makes the arguement that KDE in Fedora is vibrant more difficult when you can't have KDE without Gnome.
Actually, I installed Fedora-10 from the KDE Live CD, and then yum groupinstall-ed "KDE (K Desktop Environment)", and I only had half a dozen gnome applications on my laptop, which I can live with, personally.
MKas wrote:
kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M
Depends on system-config-printer for the printer applet. That in turn pulls in some GNOME stuff. We should probably get system-config-printer split as it is in Ubuntu (they separate the core files from the GNOME GUI).
Kevin Kofler
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
MKas wrote:
kdeutils i386 6:4.1.3-1.fc10 installed 5.6 M
Depends on system-config-printer for the printer applet. That in turn pulls in some GNOME stuff. We should probably get system-config-printer split as it is in Ubuntu (they separate the core files from the GNOME GUI).
Kevin Kofler
Why does the GUI depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?
On Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:15:26 -0600 Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Why does the GUI depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?
Well for one thing, no gtk app can display readable fonts unless the gnome-settings-daemon is running to tell them what to do.
I hate both the gnome and kde desktops, and in my quest to rid myself of them, I've definitely discovered there are pieces you can't do without. Aside from gnome-settings-daemon for gtk apps, most apps (kde or gtk) can't seem to survive without a dbus daemon running.
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Why does the GUI [of system-config-printer] depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?
It depends on gnome-python2, presumably because it uses some of its features. (I think the systray applet is what uses the GNOME libs.) Just as programs depend on KDE rather than just Qt for good reasons.
I don't think removing the GNOME dependency is the correct solution, splitting off the common, non-GUI files shared with KDE into a system-config-printer-common subpackage is. (I should have filed a bug to request this ages ago.)
Kevin Kofler
On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kofler@chello.at wrote:
Arthur Pemberton wrote:
Why does the GUI [of system-config-printer] depend on gnome at all? As opposed to just Gtk?
It depends on gnome-python2, presumably because it uses some of its features. (I think the systray applet is what uses the GNOME libs.) Just as programs depend on KDE rather than just Qt for good reasons.
I don't think removing the GNOME dependency is the correct solution, splitting off the common, non-GUI files shared with KDE into a system-config-printer-common subpackage is. (I should have filed a bug to request this ages ago.)
Kevin Kofler
Okay, I somewhat curious to take a look at system-config-samba myself as last time I tried it i raised an exception and died quietly.
On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications. I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some other gnome application. Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.
Bye Ambrogio
On Friday 02 January 2009 16:15:35 Ambrogio wrote:
On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications. I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some other gnome application. Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.
Bye Ambrogio
Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on my nerves. Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2? And plus, if you love evolution, why not just use gnome. KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that evolution and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE.
Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs. They have *re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great problems. Use it, love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)
If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs. It's that easy!
On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE 3.x.
And well, I won't forget to mention, Happy new year :)
On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Armin feng.shaun@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday 02 January 2009 16:15:35 Ambrogio wrote:
On dom, 2008-12-21 at 14:05 -0500, Mail Lists wrote:
That was the way things used to be. Now KDE is harder to configure, not as flexible and is difficult if not impossible to set up the way I like things (task manager showing 1 icon per console or per firefox, the workspace chooser in the middle, the ability to click and save a session etc etc).
And what about the integration between KDE and Gnome applications. I'm not able to set the right language for Evolution, gimp and some other gnome application. Before in KDE 3 I never had that problems.
Bye Ambrogio
Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on my nerves.
Thank you, I was wondering if I was alone.
Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2? And plus, if you love evolution, why not just use gnome.
Fair point. I prefer Thunderbird myself, but I am trying out Kmail
KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that evolution
True, KMail has been quite buggy for me though
and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE.
Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs. They have *re-written* most of KDE
Kmail looks to be the old one though. Well, the entire Kontact suite seems to be 3.5.x
, and with great change comes great problems. Use it, love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :)
If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs. It's that easy!
On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE 3.x.
True
And well, I won't forget to mention, Happy new year :)
Armin
Peace.
On ven, 2009-01-02 at 16:26 -0400, Armin wrote:
Guys, for god's sake, this thread is really starting to walk on my nerves. Have you guys ever tried 4.2 beta 2? And plus, if you love evolution, why not just use gnome. KMail in my opinion is way better and easier to configure that evolution and kde apps just make sense, and that is why I chose KDE.
I use KDE from official repos for Fedora 9. I don't have time to install and test the 4.2beta2 version, because I don't have skills to do it. I don't work very well with desktops. I prefere KDE only because I ever used it. Maybe I will like Gnome if I will start to use it.
Changing from kde3 to kde4 maybe could be the right moment to switch to gnome, because kde4 is very different from the kde3 but I will stay on KDE.
If I love evolution can I use it on KDE? I used it on KDE for years, why I have to switch to gnome now?
And if I love gimp, I have to switch to gnome? And if after I love ktorrent or sone k* I have to switch to KDE?
So, it's better to have 2 desktop session and switch from one to the other simply clicking ctrl-alt-F6 and clicking ctrl-alt-F7 for example? I don't understand this approach... I like linux because it permit me to choise between desktops, between application. Now I think that this is not so true like in the past.
Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs. They have *re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great problems. Use it, love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :) If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs. It's that easy!
I'm involved in some other QA on the open source, so I know that this is a good approach to the problem, but before to open a bug I will know if I'm the only one that has the problem, or is a choice.
On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE 3.x.
That's true, but you can't do things that you done in the past
Happy new year :)
Happy new year to you too
Bye Ambrogio
On Saturday 03 January 2009 10:52:40 Ambrogio wrote:
On ven, 2009-01-02 at 16:26 -0400, Armin wrote:
If I love evolution can I use it on KDE? I used it on KDE for years, why I have to switch to gnome now?
And if I love gimp, I have to switch to gnome? And if after I love ktorrent or sone k* I have to switch to KDE?
So, it's better to have 2 desktop session and switch from one to the other simply clicking ctrl-alt-F6 and clicking ctrl-alt-F7 for example? I don't understand this approach... I like linux because it permit me to choise between desktops, between application. Now I think that this is not so true like in the past.
Hi, Ambrogio. You really don't have to switch to gnome to use evolution or gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if you were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application). Installing the application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the application will run on either desktop. I do use some gnome applications on my kde desktop.
Plus, it's very good if you guys appreciate the work of KDE devs. They have *re-written* most of KDE, and with great change comes great problems. Use it, love it, adore it, and report it, and help it. :) If you don't have coding skills, help with the artwork, bug reports, documentation, etc. etc. and if you do have coding skills, fix the bugs. It's that easy!
I'm involved in some other QA on the open source, so I know that this is a good approach to the problem, but before to open a bug I will know if I'm the only one that has the problem, or is a choice.
Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem, since if I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration that's at fault.
On top of all, I can do things now that I have never been able to do in KDE 3.x.
That's true, but you can't do things that you done in the past
A few, but not many now. The problem is that some of the things are done differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask. We may be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you whether it is work-in-progress.
Anne
On sab, 2009-01-03 at 11:25 +0000, Anne Wilson wrote:
Hi, Ambrogio. You really don't have to switch to gnome to use evolution or gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if you were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application). Installing the application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the application will run on either desktop. I do use some gnome applications on my kde desktop.
Yes, I know that. My mail was only a "provocation" :-) About interation and integration of desktops and applications, I have a lot of problems.
For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that applications localized work well. But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2 applications that I use very often) menus are in italian. If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution and gnome are in english. I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull.
Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem, since if I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration that's at fault.
I think this is the right approach, and also read and check other similar bugs or help request.
A few, but not many now. The problem is that some of the things are done differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask. We may be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you whether it is work-in-progress.
I know that there are everytime things that are work-in-progress, and other that are impossible. I need everytime the last one :-)
Bye
I use KDE too. Regards, Michael Leung www.michaelleung.info http://diary.skynovel.info
On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 9:44 PM, Ambrogio fn050202@interfree.it wrote:
On sab, 2009-01-03 at 11:25 +0000, Anne Wilson wrote:
Hi, Ambrogio. You really don't have to switch to gnome to use evolution
or
gimp, or any other application (nor would you have to switch to kde if
you
were running in gnome and wanted to run a kde application). Installing
the
application you want will pull in any necessary libraries, and the
application
will run on either desktop. I do use some gnome applications on my kde desktop.
Yes, I know that. My mail was only a "provocation" :-) About interation and integration of desktops and applications, I have a lot of problems.
For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that applications localized work well. But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2 applications that I use very often) menus are in italian. If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution and gnome are in english. I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull.
Agreed - I also prefer to check whether others experience a problem,
since if
I'm the only one experiencing it, it's likely to be my configuration
that's at
fault.
I think this is the right approach, and also read and check other similar bugs or help request.
A few, but not many now. The problem is that some of the things are done differently, so if there are particular things that you miss, do ask. We
may
be able to tell you how to do it, and if not, we may be able to tell you whether it is work-in-progress.
I know that there are everytime things that are work-in-progress, and other that are impossible. I need everytime the last one :-)
Bye
Ambrogio De Lorenzo Professional Services Manager EMC Proven Specialist
Tel: +39 340 1832924 Fax: +39 02 700430148 Email: ambrogio.delorenzo@gdit.it ICQ: 161962491 Linux User #389536
-- fedora-list mailing list fedora-list@redhat.com To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
On Saturday 03 January 2009 11:44:30 Ambrogio wrote:
For example, I'm Italian and I like in most cases that applications localized work well. But, if I start gnome and I launch evolution and gimp (that are 2 applications that I use very often) menus are in italian. If I start KDE and use the KDE apps, they are in Italian, but evolution and gnome are in english. I was unable to obtain the italian menu. Apps depend on desktop configuration, so using of the environment vars wasn't usefull.
I can see that that's a problem :-) I'm sure it must be possible to do something about this, but it's a specialist area. I wonder if Kevin Koffler can help? I feel that there must be specialist lists for handling language problems. I'd be inclined to try asking on kde-i18n-it - https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-i18n-it
Although the main focus is on translation they may well be able to tell you what you need to do to get the languages correctly aligned.
HTH
Anne
On 12/21/2008 02:05 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted -
..
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:
- I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)
- Session save remains broken - still
- gdm configuration is scattered and peculiar (combination of /etc/gdm/ files, /etc/gconf, each users gconf, user gdm gconf) ... but it does work
- keyring management needs help - and getting gpg-agent and ssh-agent to work sanely took some scripting which now works perfectly for me.
- overall I am content at this point.
I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.
gene
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
On 12/21/2008 02:05 PM, Mail Lists wrote:
I am a long time KDE user - in part for similar reasons to Linus - it was configurable, flexible and let me set things up the way I wanted -
..
(1) Are the fedora KDE users moving back to gnome ? ... is KDE dead or alive ?
Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
I disagree, and I am always have been a gnome user.
Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:
I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)
Session save remains broken - still
There is a way of implementing a "manual" session save for gnome:
http://blogs.sun.com/mattman/entry/gnome_2_24_session_save1
It is working just fine for me, even with compiz. I just need to click on a panel icon to send my terminals and applications to their appropriate locations.
Note that this works only for gnome-terminal 2.24 (F10). gnome-terminal 2.18 (F8) seems to not allow the changing of a terminal title.
Mail Lists wrote:
Switching was not without some discomfort and effort ... of note:
- I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)
System -> Preferences -> Look and Feel -> Main Menu
I'm able to add and remove items using this tool.
- keyring management needs help - and getting gpg-agent andssh-agent to work sanely took some scripting which now works perfectly for me.
If you're on F10, you're probably trying too hard. At least ssh-agent functionality is built in to the gnome-keyring-daemon. You don't have to start it yourself. You probably don't even need to run 'ssh-add'; you'll be prompted for the passphrase to keys in the default paths when ssh tries to use them for the first time (or at login, if you click a checkbox).
On 01/28/2009 11:07 PM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
Mail Lists wrote:
- I've been unable to add items to my desktop menu(s)
System -> Preferences -> Look and Feel -> Main Menu
I'm able to add and remove items using this tool.
I was thinking of Right (or left) Click on Background Menu rather than the Applications menu on the panel ... i don't see it there - maybe I am not looking right ..
If you're on F10, you're probably trying too hard. At least ssh-agent functionality is built in to the gnome-keyring-daemon. You don't have to start it yourself. You probably don't even need to run 'ssh-add'; you'll be prompted for the passphrase to keys in the default paths when ssh tries to use them for the first time (or at login, if you click a checkbox).
Yes thank you - I am aware of that - but the behaviour of that I found not to my taste - it grabs focus and refuses to let go. I went back to the standard ssh-agent and openssh askpass and ssh-add.
Thank you for your thoughts ..
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
Have fun. I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0. Quite frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out there at this point. It's definitely ready.
I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.
Are you trying to draw flames or something? KDE is functional, configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you absolutely batty.
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote: Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
Have fun. I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0. Quite frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out there at this point. It's definitely ready.
I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.Are you trying to draw flames or something? KDE is functional, configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you absolutely batty.
---- the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote: Followup to let you know what I decided for myself - I have switched from KDE to Gnome. I tried, but KDE4 is just not ready today.
Have fun. I've been with KDE since 3.2, and KDE 4 since 4.0. Quite frankly, 4.2 beats the pants off of just about anything I've seen out there at this point. It's definitely ready.
I know I am not the only person who has switched to Gnome. I will revisit this in the coming months and perhaps KDE can recover to be the functional, configurable, useful desktop it once was.Are you trying to draw flames or something? KDE is functional, configurable and useful, unless you're so totally tied to the Windows desktop metaphor that the very concept of something else drives you absolutely batty.
the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I switched from Gnome to KDE.
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:51 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I switched from Gnome to KDE.
I thought that was what blogs are for.
Craig
This thread suggests otherwise.
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 12:07 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 11:51 -0600, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
I guess I should have posted a public announcement back when I switched from Gnome to KDE.
I thought that was what blogs are for.
Craig
This thread suggests otherwise.
---- Go to dailykos.com and see their dictionary for gbcw...
Always good when done with dramatic flair even if entirely pointless
Craig
On Friday 30 January 2009 16:47:13 Craig White wrote:
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Absolutely correct. However, there is a difference between saying that you are much happier with a different desktop, and saying that what you dislike is crap. Personal likes and choices are just that.
Anne
Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
\SNIP
the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so frustrated. I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work but that was my fault. I didn't know about the session selector in GDM and was trying switch desktop function.
After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations. Some nice improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS Windows. No real control to improve the efficiency.
KDE 4.1 is pretty good. I am having some weird issues that I don't like but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes. I hear 4.2 is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy. Of course that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista like menu.
My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
I will drink to that. To each their own. The person that turned me onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 4.2 comes out.
On Monday 02 February 2009 13:54:00 Robin Laing wrote:
Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
\SNIP
the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so frustrated. I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work but that was my fault. I didn't know about the session selector in GDM and was trying switch desktop function.
After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations. Some nice improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS Windows. No real control to improve the efficiency.
KDE 4.1 is pretty good. I am having some weird issues that I don't like but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes. I hear 4.2 is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy. Of course that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista like menu.
Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in kick-off that is like window$, but I have yet to find out. I don't see anything to be the same except that there are some things and you click on them.
My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
that's the first time I'm hearing this.
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
I will drink to that. To each their own. The person that turned me onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 4.2 comes out.
KDE 4.2 is already out and I'v been using it for 2 months now (from RC) and the final came out last tuesday. You can get it from kde-redhat repo.
-- Robin Laing
Armin wrote:
On Monday 02 February 2009 13:54:00 Robin Laing wrote:
Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
\SNIP
KDE 4.1 is pretty good. I am having some weird issues that I don't like but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes. I hear 4.2 is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy. Of course that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista like menu.
Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in kick-off that is like window$, but I have yet to find out. I don't see anything to be the same except that there are some things and you click on them.
I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface. To many clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu.
My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
that's the first time I'm hearing this.
I wouldn't know how similar it is but those are her thoughts. I will try to convert her. :)
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
I will drink to that. To each their own. The person that turned me onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 4.2 comes out.
KDE 4.2 is already out and I'v been using it for 2 months now (from RC) and the final came out last tuesday. You can get it from kde-redhat repo.
I don't have that repo but I will have to get it.
-- Robin Laing
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:29:32 -0700 Robin Laing wrote:
Ok, honestly, I have been trying to find out what do you guys in kick-off that is like window$, but I have yet to find out. I don't see anything to be the same except that there are some things and you click on them.
I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface. To many clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
I don't know about KDE kick-off, but it is certainly clear that GDM is desperate to be a clone of the windows login screen and gnome logout as well, with the annoying window fade to black & white animation (that takes forever to update when running in an NX session so you have to wait forever before you can push the damn go ahead and exit already button :-).
On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 14:29 -0700, Robin Laing wrote:
I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface. To many clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu.
---- as long as you realize that you can merely right click the 'Application Launcher' widget to 'Switch to Classic Menu Style'
Craig
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Craig White craigwhite@azapple.com wrote:
On Mon, 2009-02-02 at 14:29 -0700, Robin Laing wrote:
I find the way the menu is now into multi-levels in KDE to be like my experience with Vista and XP without the classic interface. To many clicks/mouse motions to get to where I want to be.
I prefer the classic menu as it drops one more menu.
as long as you realize that you can merely right click the 'Application Launcher' widget to 'Switch to Classic Menu Style'
LXDE:) works like a charm, nice and lean just how software should be.
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 9:54 AM, Robin Laing Robin.Laing@drdc-rddc.gc.ca wrote: <..snip...>
My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
Funny thing. While using KDE 4.1 in F10, I was tweaking settings and the very first moment I saw the layout of the System Settings control panel I though "Time warp! it looks like Mac OS X..." I did not think there was anything wrong with that. I found the control panel to be quite functional.
~af
Robin Laing wrote:
Craig White wrote:
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 09:53 -0500, Kelly Miller wrote:
On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Mail Lists lists@sapience.com wrote:
\SNIP
the truth is though, that he is not the only one who switched from KDE to GNOME. It's about the expectations.
When I installed F10 on the first machine, I tried Gnome and was so frustrated. I tried to switch to KDE but I couldn't get it to work but that was my fault. I didn't know about the session selector in GDM and was trying switch desktop function.
After playing with Gnome, I found the same frustrations. Some nice improvements over the version in F7 but still reminded me of using MS Windows. No real control to improve the efficiency.
KDE 4.1 is pretty good. I am having some weird issues that I don't like but I have not had a chance to figure out all the changes. I hear 4.2 is so much better than 4.2 so I think I will be really happy. Of course that is after I change the menu back to the classic menu from the Vista like menu.
My daughter prefers Gnome over KDE because KDE makes here think of Macs and she has had her fair share of nightmares with Mac's.
I personally agree that I would rather be using the KDE on F10 than GNOME but not everyone who disagrees is inherently wrong.
Craig
I will drink to that. To each their own. The person that turned me onto KDE now uses Gnome but is thinking of checking it out again when 4.2 comes out.
I've went back to GNOME after the third time I had to press the hard reset button on the front of the machine. This is *nix, and my memories of *nix based OS is from SCO. In the 90's I worked for NASDAQ and their (at the time) communications machines ran SCO, we had boxes that had up-times measured in years. So, when KDE 4.1 (this is from the downloaded F10 DVD I did ... maybe two and a half weeks ago) hung hard enough to need to reset button, it was time to switch. I haven't rebooted since.... now if only I could sync with my lifedrive...
Michael
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