[snip long rants]
The "customers" of Fedora are the users. If you irritate or frustrate your users, especially if the cost is $0 to move to something else, you WILL lose market share and hence mind share.
Additional data points that might add to the flames:
1) I have a co-worker new to Linux. He tried F15 and hated it, then went back to F14. I believe WinXP/Vista/7 users trying Linux for the first time ARE confused by F15/Gnome3.
2) Other friends/co-workers have moved to Ubuntu for their desktop and only use RHEL/CentOS for servers (No Fedora).
3) It took me hours to get my F15 laptop sane including finding obscure settings to turn on the minimize in windows, and a working printer configuration application.
These are the reasons why only one of my Linux-based laptops/netbooks/desktops is F15 and the rest are F14 or Ubuntu.
I hope to try Fedora 16 alpha soon. I hope that most of the major objections to Gnome 3 in F15 have been addressed and that developers have listened to the complaints. I plan to remain a loyal Fedora user as I have used RHL & Fedora since about RHL 2 or 3 circa 1995 (and Slackware before that).
Open source is GREAT, but developers must remember that the cost (time and $) to move from one version to another is very low....
Cheers, -- Wade Hampton
On 09/28/2011 08:32 AM, Wade Hampton wrote:
Additional data points that might add to the flames:
I have a co-worker new to Linux. He tried F15 and hated it, then went back to F14. I believe WinXP/Vista/7 users trying Linux for the first time ARE confused by F15/Gnome3.
Other friends/co-workers have moved to Ubuntu for their desktop and only use RHEL/CentOS for servers (No Fedora).
It took me hours to get my F15 laptop sane including finding obscure settings to turn on the minimize in windows, and a working printer configuration application.
I have largely stayed out of these conversations, but I would just like to interject that I have had exactly the opposite experience. I love Gnome 3 and would be frustrated if I had to go back to anything like Gnome 2 or any other environment I have used before. I will be the first to admit that things are not complete yet, but I really feel that people who are complaining about any sort of design issues are missing the point. The basic user interactions baked into Gnome 3 tend to be much easier for me and a lot of complaints I see come from users actively fighting to use the interface in a way that it was not intended.
For instance, there really is no need to minimize a window with Gnome 3. I know it sounds condescending to say that, and you can feel free to feel insulted by me, the Gnome devs and God herself if you want, but once I got the hang of it, never having to manage minimized windows was amazingly freeing. Likewise, you can turn on focus follows mouse, but if you do you will likely become frustrated with the experience. I have used focus follows mouse for over 20 years prior to Gnome 3, and it was one of the thing that made using X based desktops a joy for me, but I've been running for about 1 month with click to focus and I don't miss focus follows mouse one bit.
Gnome 3 might really irritate you, or might be specifically bad for your particular use cases, and I completely understand if you want to continue with the desktop metaphors that have served you well in the past, but that does not mean it will be a general failure. Sure, there is a bit of a learning curve, and I installed it on my machines to get the hang of it before putting it on anything that anyone else will use, but it only takes about 15 minutes to run through the changes with someone sitting in front of the computer for them to get the hang of it.
That being said, I share your pain on the printer setup, and I really hope that gets easier.
Woogie
Open source is GREAT, but developers must remember that the cost (time and $) to move from one version to another is very low....
Most of the Gnome developers probably are not Fedora users anyway, and why should they care which distro people use ? Similarly from a commercial perspective 'what's the business case ?'
As to distro switching - yes it isn't hard, and the desktop switching option in Fedora is even easier.
yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm
End of problem
Alan
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 09:02:30AM -0400, Mike Wohlgemuth wrote:
amazingly freeing. Likewise, you can turn on focus follows mouse, but if you do you will likely become frustrated with the experience. I have
Focus-follows-mouse is just very bugyy in F15. It behaves better in 3.2 (F16), and hopefully it'll work nicely in 3.4.
On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm
- EFAIL screensaver - EFAIL set desktop background - EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing) - Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop.
End of problem
Start of new problems ;)
Ralf
On Wed, 2011-09-28 at 16:26 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm
- EFAIL screensaver
- EFAIL set desktop background
- EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing)
- Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop.
End of problem
Start of new problems ;)
---- hopefully you made bug reports
Craig
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:26:44 +0200 Ralf Corsepius rc040203@freenet.de wrote:
On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm
- EFAIL screensaver
--verbose? Hopefully you aren't trying to use gnome-screensaver. xscreensaver should work fine.
- EFAIL set desktop background
Works fine here.
- EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing)
That issue affects gnome-terminal, and yes, there's a fix in testing. Xfce Terminal works fine and always has. ;)
- Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop.
There's been some reports of this. I have been unable to isolate it. Somehow the window manager crashes on logout and the session gets saved without it. There's an upstream bug open on it... more information welcome.
End of problem
Start of new problems ;)
Sadly, all software has issues. ;)
kevin
On 09/29/2011 03:29 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
On Wed, 28 Sep 2011 16:26:44 +0200 Ralf Corsepiusrc040203@freenet.de wrote:
On 09/28/2011 03:42 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
yum groupinstall "XFCE" set your desktop at gdm
Remark: I am still using F14 as regular OS, however I have F15 testing installations (not in regular use) on 2 testing machines.
- EFAIL screensaver
--verbose?
1) On machine #1, xscreensaver never "blackens" the screen, but continues infinitely. It tried to tweak its settings, but no success so far.
2) On machine #1 (a netbook with intel GPU), after many hours (could be either 12 or 24 hrs) of xscreensaver activity, the machines "deep freezes" (no local nor remote login possible, Alt-F<X> doesn't react) - Of course, this issue could be caused by something else, but fact is it only happens when xscreensaver is active.
On machine #2 (a ca 10 years old PIII w/ a ca. 6 years old nvidia GPU), xscreensaver dumps core after some time. My wild guess would be issues with GL, because Gnome3 crashes immediately and Gnome3/fallback also crashes after some hours. F14/Gnome2 had worked flawlessly.
Hopefully you aren't trying to use gnome-screensaver. xscreensaver should work fine.
It's xscreensaver.
- EFAIL set desktop background
Works fine here.
OK, I will try to recheck - May-be I missed something or may-be something has changed.
- EFAIL terminal sizing (Fix lingering in testing)
That issue affects gnome-terminal, and yes, there's a fix in testing. Xfce Terminal works fine and always has. ;)
After ca. 10 years of using Gnome, I so far prefer using gnome-terminal and am trying to stay with nautilus w/ xfce :)
- Sporadic -EFAIL restoring desktop.
There's been some reports of this. I have been unable to isolate it. Somehow the window manager crashes on logout and the session gets saved without it. There's an upstream bug open on it... more information welcome.
OK. I also can't reproduce it deterministically.
Two other issues, I haven't mentioned yet:
* xfce's interaction with NetworkManager. The NM configuration I was using under F14/Gnome2 and F15/Gnome3 did not work with F15/xfce. I had to change it to get it working with xfce.
* How to get rid of gdm and what to replace it with? Gdm had always been a major nuissance, which had never worked flawlessly, so I am inclined to use switching to xfce as an oportunty to get rid of it, as well.
End of problem
Start of new problems ;)
Sadly, all software has issues. ;)
Inevitably ;)
Ralf
On 09/28/2011 11:34 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
- How to get rid of gdm and what to replace it with?
Gdm had always been a major nuissance, which had never worked flawlessly, so I am inclined to use switching to xfce as an oportunty to get rid of it, as well.
I switched to KDM a while back - works fine for me just put it in to /etc/sysconfig/desktop
DISPLAYMANAGER="KDE"
gene/
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