What's all the hype over Ubuntu?

[Arch Willingham]

I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I ended up using Fedora
was it was the first link I clicked on that worked (I think it was FC3). Since that time,
I have around fifteen machines running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as
of yesterday, is running the beta of FC9.

With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running except Fedora.
What's all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could download an install a copy but I
never really saw any reason to since FCx seems to work great.

I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better...just trying to get an idea of
why its seems so popular.

Thanks!

Arch

[John Summerfield]

Ian Chapman wrote:
>  Les Mikesell wrote:
>  
> >> But I must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
> >> basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was 
> >> magically different about deb.
> >
> > Try to find something that isn't included in the standard repository. 
> > With fedora, you won't even find the names of additional repositories 
> > documented, so you ask here.  You'll get several different answers and 
> > if you are looking for Sun Java, none of them will apply.  For 
> > anything else, like vlc or the Nvidia driver, you add all the 
> > recommended repos and tell yum to install something and you'll get rpm 
> > conflicts.   With ubuntu, you enable the pre-configured extra 
> > repositories, pick what you want and you are ready to run it.
>  
>  So it seems it's more about packaging strategy and what distros offer, 
>  rather than debs necessarily being inherently superior to rpm. I can 
>  understand what you've said in the context of Fedora and Ubuntu but Suse 
>  offers much of the same "non-free" stuff. Maybe Mandriva too I can't 
>  remember. I'd always assumed they were referring to the days when you 
>  tried to install program1.rpm which then said it needed libfoo.rpm, 
>  which in turn needed libbar.so.1 which you had to figure how which rpm 
>  it was in and so on, which is why I thought that viewpoint seemed outdated.
>   
debs have different information, and the ability to have different 
strength dependencies:
requires, like with rpm
recommends - may work better with these
suggests -- may work better with these.

At one point (years ago) I had to install X on RHL to use Ghostscript. 
Complete nonsense of course, but dpkg might have handled that better.

apt-get is about equivalent to yum, but does more such as download and 
(optionally) build source - it can get and install build deps too, it's 
quicker (at least with simple stuff) (at least with default options). 
apt-get (like up2date) can download updates without installing them:
   apt-get -yud dist-upgrade

yum's tools might be equivalent, but it's a terrible mish-mash. AFAIK 
there's no proper equivalent _in yum_ to the above apt-get command which 
fetches all available updates and copes with adding new packages - it's 
not only for release upgrades equivalent to f8 to f9.





-- 

Cheers
John

-- spambait
1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu  Z1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
-- Advice
http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

You cannot reply off-list:-)

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 19:27 -0700, Timothy Payne wrote:
>  ----- Original Message ----- 
>  From: "John Summerfield" <debian(a)herakles.homelinux.org&gt;
>  To: "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
>  Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:47 PM
>  Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?
>  
>  
>  > Ian Chapman wrote:
>  >> Les Mikesell wrote:
>  >>
>  >>>> But I must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
>  >>>> basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was
> magically 
>  >>>> different about deb.
>  >>>
>  >>> Try to find something that isn't included in the standard repository. 
>  >>> With fedora, you won't even find the names of additional repositories 
>  >>> documented, so you ask here.  You'll get several different answers and 
>  >>> if you are looking for Sun Java, none of them will apply.  For anything 
>  >>> else, like vlc or the Nvidia driver, you add all the recommended repos 
>  >>> and tell yum to install something and you'll get rpm conflicts.   With 
>  >>> ubuntu, you enable the pre-configured extra repositories, pick what you 
>  >>> want and you are ready to run it.
>  >>
>  >> So it seems it's more about packaging strategy and what distros offer, 
>  >> rather than debs necessarily being inherently superior to rpm. I can 
>  >> understand what you've said in the context of Fedora and Ubuntu but Suse 
>  >> offers much of the same "non-free" stuff. Maybe Mandriva too I
> can't 
>  >> remember. I'd always assumed they were referring to the days when you 
>  >> tried to install program1.rpm which then said it needed libfoo.rpm, which 
>  >> in turn needed libbar.so.1 which you had to figure how which rpm it was 
>  >> in and so on, which is why I thought that viewpoint seemed outdated.
>  >>
>  >
>  > debs have different information, and the ability to have different 
>  > strength dependencies:
>  > requires, like with rpm
>  > recommends - may work better with these
>  > suggests -- may work better with these.
>  >
>  > At one point (years ago) I had to install X on RHL to use Ghostscript. 
>  > Complete nonsense of course, but dpkg might have handled that better.
>  >
>  > apt-get is about equivalent to yum, but does more such as download and 
>  > (optionally) build source - it can get and install build deps too, it's 
>  > quicker (at least with simple stuff) (at least with default options). 
>  > apt-get (like up2date) can download updates without installing them:
>  >   apt-get -yud dist-upgrade
>  >
>  > yum's tools might be equivalent, but it's a terrible mish-mash. AFAIK 
>  > there's no proper equivalent _in yum_ to the above apt-get command which 
>  > fetches all available updates and copes with adding new packages - it's 
>  > not only for release upgrades equivalent to f8 to f9.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > -- 
>  >
>  > Cheers
>  > John
>  >
>  > -- spambait
>  > 1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu  Z1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
>  > -- Advice
>  > http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
>  > http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>  > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
>  >
>  > You cannot reply off-list:-)
>  >
>  > -- 
>  > fedora-list mailing list
>  > fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  > To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  
>  
>  I'm not a programmer please keep that in mind,  could a mirror be set up to 
>  use apt?  I used it on RH 7.3 @ Dag, and had forgot about it untlil then. 
>  But I assume a mirror will need help for free from smarter people than I.  
You can already use apt-get (and synaptic etc.) on Fedora, as many of
the repos offer apt-configured versions. Note that this is apt with
RPMs, not with DEBs.

poc

[vincenzo romero]

*sigh* ...

i guess either Xen it to run itunes on Windoze ..

or Windoze and VMWare to run your favorite linux distro ...

thanks then - if anyone know of any shareware or application that can
manage mp3 that would allow me to migrate my home network into linux
and bye-bye windoze and Apple for good!

- V

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  vincenzo romero wrote:
>   > Great thread ...
>   >
>   > Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>   > ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>   > availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>   > itunes support?  etc....
>   >
>   > My son's Apple G4 is a victim of logic board issues and soldering bad
>   > design - I want to just suck the info out into our NAS drive and just
>   > get a cheap laptop - wondering what linux version would be a good one
>   > to deploy for home use ..
>   >
>   > any thoughts esp vis a vis mp3 support would be greatly appreciated ..
>   >
>
>   There's not a huge difference among linux distros in the applications
>   that are available if you track them down.  Most won't include anything
>   with patented or even questionable functionality in the base distro.
>   Fedora won't publically admit that such stuff exists.  Ubuntu has it in
>   repositories that easily be enabled.  There are several media players
>   around but I don't think any will play drm-affected AAC files from the
>   itunes store and playlist management probably won't quite match itunes.
>
>
>   --
>     Les Mikesell
>      lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
>
>   --
>
>
>  fedora-list mailing list
>   fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>   To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  


-- 
best,

Vince

[Les Mikesell]

vincenzo romero wrote:
>  Great thread ...
>  
>  Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>  ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>  availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>  itunes support?  etc....
>  
>  My son's Apple G4 is a victim of logic board issues and soldering bad
>  design - I want to just suck the info out into our NAS drive and just
>  get a cheap laptop - wondering what linux version would be a good one
>  to deploy for home use ..
>  
>  any thoughts esp vis a vis mp3 support would be greatly appreciated ..
>  
There's not a huge difference among linux distros in the applications 
that are available if you track them down.  Most won't include anything 
with patented or even questionable functionality in the base distro. 
Fedora won't publically admit that such stuff exists.  Ubuntu has it in 
repositories that easily be enabled.  There are several media players 
around but I don't think any will play drm-affected AAC files from the 
itunes store and playlist management probably won't quite match itunes.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Ed Greshko]

Da Rock wrote:

> > If the answers to the problems are found on ubuntu web pages
> doesn't that 
> > mean the problems also exist in ubuntu?  If ubuntu handled the problem 
> > directly then there would be no point in asking how to do it...  :-)
> >
> > Do the results/resolution to the problem translate to other distros or are 
> > they specific to ubuntu?
>  
>  Actually 90% of the time they do correlate. If Ubuntu does nothing else,
>  it does help newbies work out linux- even on other distros. If the user
>  gets stuck trying to work out how to sort it on their own distro they
>  can can get (although usually curt, hence why they would ask Ubuntu) a
>  response from the distro's team of players. 
With all of the above being the case then I venture to say that the appeal 
of ubuntu is not based on its technical merits.  I do know that if I were 
going to start playing tennis again (or even when I was young enough to 
start tennis for the first time) I would feel intimidated joining a group 
that included Rodger Sampras.  I get the feeling that has much to do with 
ubuntu's popularity.  Also, in general, given no clear reason people will 
stick with what they know and once they know a distro they will stick with it.

>  
> > FWIW, I have ubuntu installed on a VM and do play with it from time to time. 
> >   Probably need more time to learn its quarks.  But the one thing I noticed 
> > is that the folks on their mailing lists, IMHO, tend to be greener than 
> > average and the amount of bad advice or misinformation is greater than other 
> > lists that have insufferable geeks.  :-)
>  
>  This is true as well, but the Ubuntu lists appear to have real techs
>  roving the lists to fix issues. 
I think you will find that true of all the lists of the major distros.

>  Love it or hate it, Ubuntu does appear to be here to stay, and it
> does
>  appear to be doing some good in the war against M$ as many (even
>  hardcore) M$ users will at least try it out for usability. My personal
>  opinion is to put complete newbies on it so they're not thrown in the
>  deep end- at least they have floaties! ;) Once they've gained their feet
>  then put them on something more reliable and stable. I find Ubuntu is
>  not as stable or functional as other linux distros, but easier to use.
>  It is of course far more stable than Windows at least- and
>  tougher/solid- while offering pretty much the same functionality they're
>  used to. 
Linux is like religion.  There is room in this world for all.  Except, of 
course, those that feel it is their mission to stamp out all others.  :-)

>  Ok I'm done. Hope I don't start something with this- I tend
> to agree
>  with the sentiment that this could get ugly here. 
If not ugly, at least OT when it comes to talking about fedora issues.

[Da Rock]

On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 09:12 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  Da Rock wrote:
>  
>  >> If the answers to the problems are found on ubuntu web pages doesn't that 
>  >> mean the problems also exist in ubuntu?  If ubuntu handled the problem 
>  >> directly then there would be no point in asking how to do it...  :-)
>  >>
>  >> Do the results/resolution to the problem translate to other distros or are 
>  >> they specific to ubuntu?
>  > 
>  > Actually 90% of the time they do correlate. If Ubuntu does nothing else,
>  > it does help newbies work out linux- even on other distros. If the user
>  > gets stuck trying to work out how to sort it on their own distro they
>  > can can get (although usually curt, hence why they would ask Ubuntu) a
>  > response from the distro's team of players.
>  
>  With all of the above being the case then I venture to say that the appeal 
>  of ubuntu is not based on its technical merits.  I do know that if I were 
>  going to start playing tennis again (or even when I was young enough to 
>  start tennis for the first time) I would feel intimidated joining a group 
>  that included Rodger Sampras.  I get the feeling that has much to do with 
>  ubuntu's popularity.  Also, in general, given no clear reason people will 
>  stick with what they know and once they know a distro they will stick with it.
>   
True, but better Ubuntu than insufferable M$ crap. Besides, they may
tire and want something better once they see what is possible.


>  > 
>  >> FWIW, I have ubuntu installed on a VM and do play with it from time to time. 
>  >>   Probably need more time to learn its quarks.  But the one thing I noticed 
>  >> is that the folks on their mailing lists, IMHO, tend to be greener than 
>  >> average and the amount of bad advice or misinformation is greater than other 
>  >> lists that have insufferable geeks.  :-)
>  > 
>  > This is true as well, but the Ubuntu lists appear to have real techs
>  > roving the lists to fix issues.
>  
>  I think you will find that true of all the lists of the major distros.
>   
True again, but the point was made that less "usable" information was
made by less experienced users on Ubuntu lists. Most of these are caught
by the techs and corrected. I will point out, though, that the same can
happen on any list- although it is less likely. I have been known to be
wrong at times even.

>  > Love it or hate it, Ubuntu does appear to be here to stay, and
> it does
>  > appear to be doing some good in the war against M$ as many (even
>  > hardcore) M$ users will at least try it out for usability. My personal
>  > opinion is to put complete newbies on it so they're not thrown in the
>  > deep end- at least they have floaties! ;) Once they've gained their feet
>  > then put them on something more reliable and stable. I find Ubuntu is
>  > not as stable or functional as other linux distros, but easier to use.
>  > It is of course far more stable than Windows at least- and
>  > tougher/solid- while offering pretty much the same functionality they're
>  > used to.
>  
>  Linux is like religion.  There is room in this world for all.  Except, of 
>  course, those that feel it is their mission to stamp out all others.  :-)
>   
Yes, I agree with that. Actually that goes for all open source, but my
general feeling is that M$ is more addiction than religion (And no, I
don't want a philosophical debate here- this is just my opinion. You may
consider it and take it onboard or not, I don't mind either way). People
just won't let it go ("its not really a problem") and they suffer
withdrawal if they don't have it- sound like addiction to you? Sounds
silly, yes, but very true when you consider it.

>  > Ok I'm done. Hope I don't start something with this- I
> tend to agree
>  > with the sentiment that this could get ugly here.
>  
>  If not ugly, at least OT when it comes to talking about fedora issues.
>

[Rex Dieter]

Les Mikesell wrote:

>  vincenzo romero wrote: 
> > any thoughts esp vis a vis mp3 support would be greatly
> appreciated .. 
>  There's not a huge difference among linux distros in the
> applications
>  that are available if you track them down.  Most won't include anything
>  with patented or even questionable functionality in the base distro.
>  Fedora won't publically admit that such stuff exists.  
         ^^^^^
s/won't/can't/ => contributory infringement.
In addition, distributing even potentially encumberred bits violates (at
least the spirit of) the GPL.

>  Ubuntu has it in repositories that easily be enabled. 
Ah, the joys of being based in the Isle of Man, outside (most) legal
juridiction.

-- Rex

[Paul Shaffer]

I like the color - cooool pastel green.  Easy on the eyes.  Now there's a rock solid
reason to distro hop!

Chris Mohler <cr33dog(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:  On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:06 PM, vincenzo
romero wrote:
>  Great thread ...
>
>  Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>  ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>  availability of most applications that teenagers would like? ....
>  itunes support? etc.... 
I've been meaning to check out Linux Mint myself:
http://www.linuxmint.com/

Chris

-- 
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list


       
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[Da Rock]

On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 14:04 -0400, Arch Willingham wrote:
>  For the heck of it, this weekend, I installed their current beta on
> the laptop I was using for FC9. I don't see what the big deal is. It was nice to have
> it ask to install stuff (like flash) when it encounterd the need but I had the same issues
> with wireless that I have had with FC8/FC9. I had to end up using ndiswrapper to get it to
> work (Linksys WPC54GS). The only things I noted of real interest were: Firefox starts much
> faster than in either FC8 or FC9 and the update thingy hauls booty compared to YUM. Most
> annoying things were the weird colors and this stupid jungle sound that goes off any time
> you log in. Also, the whole "You can't get to root" thing is weird.
>  
>  Just my two cents.
>  
>  Arch
>  
>   
Yeah that root thing is really unusual the first time- turned me off
installing for quite a while. They actually use the user password IF you
have wheel group access: same as sudoers.

>  
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
> Arthur Pemberton
>  Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 2:24 PM
>  To: For users of Fedora
>  Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?
>  
>  On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Chris Mohler <cr33dog(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  > On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:06 PM, vincenzo romero <new2xen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  >  > Great thread ...
>  >  >
>  >  >  Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>  >  >  ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>  >  >  availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>  >  >  itunes support?  etc....
>  >
>  >  I've been meaning to check out Linux Mint myself:
>  >  http://www.linuxmint.com/
>  >
>  
>  Frankly, I think distro hopping is a waste of time if you current
>  distro  meets your needs.
>  
>  
>  --
>  Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
>  ( www.pembo13.com )
>  
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>

[Harrison Caudill]

I've been an ubuntu user since Google.  The software available 'out of
the box' is significantly more extensive than redhat/fedora/centos,
and a bit more friendly to the end-user.  Some people (myself
included) prefer debian-based systems (*buntu, knoppix, etc.) as
compared to the redhat-based systems for their home-systems.

Ubuntu tends to be a bit further up the dev pipeline than fedora, and
more geared towards home/dev-environment use rather than server-use.
The installation process is also a bit simpler imo (using the
'double-click-to-install' method) causing a lower entry-barrier.

All that being said, I started using Ubuntu for the same reason I
started using Python: my job demanded it, so, at this point, I'm
accustomed to it.

I realize that much of this explanation is a bit hand-wavy -- that's
quite deliberate.  In most cases, it seems to simply be a matter of
taste.

+$.02

-Harrison

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Bruce Byfield <bbyfield(a)axion.net&gt; wrote:
>  On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 14:02 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
>   > Arch Willingham wrote:
>   > > For the heck of it, this weekend, I installed their current beta on the laptop
> I was using for FC9. I don't see what the big deal is. It was nice to have it ask to
> install stuff (like flash) when it encounterd the need but I had the same issues with
> wireless that I have had with FC8/FC9. I had to end up using ndiswrapper to get it to work
> (Linksys WPC54GS). The only things I noted of real interest were: Firefox starts much
> faster than in either FC8 or FC9 and the update thingy hauls booty compared to YUM. Most
> annoying things were the weird colors and this stupid jungle sound that goes off any time
> you log in. Also, the whole "You can't get to root" thing is weird.
>   > >
>   >
>   > It's a 'you don't need a separate root password' and 'you
> shouldn't log
>   > in as root' thing.  If you want to be root, just 'sudo su -' and use
>   > your own password when prompted.
>
>   You can also change the root password and remove sudo in less than five
>   minutes.
>
>
>   --
>   Bruce Byfield 604-421-7177
>   Burnaby, BC, Canada
>   web: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield
>   blog: http://brucebyfield.wordpress.com/
>
>
>
>
>   --
>   fedora-list mailing list
>   fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>   To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  


-- 
Harrison Caudill
Swiss Army Knife
Cell - 408.621.3193
Web - www.hypersphere.org
Home - 404.550.6038

[Bruce Byfield]

On Mon, 2008-03-31 at 14:02 -0500, Les Mikesell wrote:
>  Arch Willingham wrote:
>  > For the heck of it, this weekend, I installed their current beta on the laptop I was
> using for FC9. I don't see what the big deal is. It was nice to have it ask to install
> stuff (like flash) when it encounterd the need but I had the same issues with wireless
> that I have had with FC8/FC9. I had to end up using ndiswrapper to get it to work (Linksys
> WPC54GS). The only things I noted of real interest were: Firefox starts much faster than
> in either FC8 or FC9 and the update thingy hauls booty compared to YUM. Most annoying
> things were the weird colors and this stupid jungle sound that goes off any time you log
> in. Also, the whole "You can't get to root" thing is weird.
>  > 
>  
>  It's a 'you don't need a separate root password' and 'you
> shouldn't log 
>  in as root' thing.  If you want to be root, just 'sudo su -' and use 
>  your own password when prompted. 
You can also change the root password and remove sudo in less than five
minutes.


-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7177
Burnaby, BC, Canada
web: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield
blog: http://brucebyfield.wordpress.com/

[Les Mikesell]

Arch Willingham wrote:
>  For the heck of it, this weekend, I installed their current beta on
> the laptop I was using for FC9. I don't see what the big deal is. It was nice to have
> it ask to install stuff (like flash) when it encounterd the need but I had the same issues
> with wireless that I have had with FC8/FC9. I had to end up using ndiswrapper to get it to
> work (Linksys WPC54GS). The only things I noted of real interest were: Firefox starts much
> faster than in either FC8 or FC9 and the update thingy hauls booty compared to YUM. Most
> annoying things were the weird colors and this stupid jungle sound that goes off any time
> you log in. Also, the whole "You can't get to root" thing is weird.
>   
It's a 'you don't need a separate root password' and 'you
shouldn't log 
in as root' thing.  If you want to be root, just 'sudo su -' and use 
your own password when prompted.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Arch Willingham]

For the heck of it, this weekend, I installed their current beta on the laptop I was using
for FC9. I don't see what the big deal is. It was nice to have it ask to install stuff
(like flash) when it encounterd the need but I had the same issues with wireless that I
have had with FC8/FC9. I had to end up using ndiswrapper to get it to work (Linksys
WPC54GS). The only things I noted of real interest were: Firefox starts much faster than
in either FC8 or FC9 and the update thingy hauls booty compared to YUM. Most annoying
things were the weird colors and this stupid jungle sound that goes off any time you log
in. Also, the whole "You can't get to root" thing is weird.

Just my two cents.

Arch



-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
Arthur Pemberton
Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 2:24 PM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Chris Mohler <cr33dog(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:06 PM, vincenzo romero
> <new2xen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>   > Great thread ...
>   >
>   >  Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>   >  ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>   >  availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>   >  itunes support?  etc....
>
>   I've been meaning to check out Linux Mint myself:
>   http://www.linuxmint.com/
>  
Frankly, I think distro hopping is a waste of time if you current
distro  meets your needs.


--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Ric Moore]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 10:08 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  
>  
>  > OT: how can https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/ not have a
>  > search box?
>  
>  Sssh... you didn't hear this from me, but... (ok, you did, still)...
>  The fedora-infrastucture folks are working tirelessly to provide (something
>  like) that.  A sort of "My Fedora" portal, that can include all sorts of
>  customizable fedora'y content, including package info/updates, planet
>  blogs, bugzilla, and all sorts of other cool unspeakable hooks. 
Fedora meets YouTube? <cackles> That'll be a hoot! Luv it! Ric
 
-- 
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net  <---down4now too
================================================

[Da Rock]

If you guys don't mind, I'll add my 2c here...
On Fri, 2008-03-28 at 08:07 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  Tom Horsley wrote:
>  
>  > Naturally, I turned to google, and all the top hits I
>  > got were (mostly pretty informative) pages from
>  > either ubuntu or gentoo web sites.
>  > 
>  > I have had this same experience on different searches
>  > many times before.
>  > 
>  > I can imagine folks who constantly find descriptions
>  > of how to solve their problems on ubuntu web pages
>  > might at some point be tempted to just go ahead and
>  > run ubuntu so they don't have to track down any
>  > differences between the distros in order to follow the
>  > advice.
>  > 
>  > Of course they might get the same idea about gentoo,
>  > but comparing the install process of gentoo and ubuntu
>  > would send most folks screaming to ubuntu every time :-).
>  
>  Bit of Devil's Advocate here....
>  
>  If the answers to the problems are found on ubuntu web pages doesn't that 
>  mean the problems also exist in ubuntu?  If ubuntu handled the problem 
>  directly then there would be no point in asking how to do it...  :-)
>  
>  Do the results/resolution to the problem translate to other distros or are 
>  they specific to ubuntu? 
Actually 90% of the time they do correlate. If Ubuntu does nothing else,
it does help newbies work out linux- even on other distros. If the user
gets stuck trying to work out how to sort it on their own distro they
can can get (although usually curt, hence why they would ask Ubuntu) a
response from the distro's team of players.

>  
>  FWIW, I have ubuntu installed on a VM and do play with it from time to time. 
>    Probably need more time to learn its quarks.  But the one thing I noticed 
>  is that the folks on their mailing lists, IMHO, tend to be greener than 
>  average and the amount of bad advice or misinformation is greater than other 
>  lists that have insufferable geeks.  :-) 
This is true as well, but the Ubuntu lists appear to have real techs
roving the lists to fix issues.

Love it or hate it, Ubuntu does appear to be here to stay, and it does
appear to be doing some good in the war against M$ as many (even
hardcore) M$ users will at least try it out for usability. My personal
opinion is to put complete newbies on it so they're not thrown in the
deep end- at least they have floaties! ;) Once they've gained their feet
then put them on something more reliable and stable. I find Ubuntu is
not as stable or functional as other linux distros, but easier to use.
It is of course far more stable than Windows at least- and
tougher/solid- while offering pretty much the same functionality they're
used to.

Ok I'm done. Hope I don't start something with this- I tend to agree
with the sentiment that this could get ugly here.

[Chris Mohler]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:06 PM, vincenzo romero <new2xen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Great thread ...
>
>   Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>   ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>   availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>   itunes support?  etc.... 
I've been meaning to check out Linux Mint myself:
http://www.linuxmint.com/

Chris

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Chris Mohler <cr33dog(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:06 PM, vincenzo romero
> <new2xen(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>   > Great thread ...
>   >
>   >  Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
>   >  ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
>   >  availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
>   >  itunes support?  etc....
>
>   I've been meaning to check out Linux Mint myself:
>   http://www.linuxmint.com/
>  
Frankly, I think distro hopping is a waste of time if you current
distro  meets your needs.


-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

[Tom Horsley]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:05:24 -0500
Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)math.unl.edu&gt; wrote:

>  > It seems surprising to me in this age of code-sharing that
> anyone still
>  > has to work tirelessly to re-invent a web server that provides the same
>  > services as a million other web servers.  Isn't there something that is
>  > reusable and would work for any project?  
>  
>  fwiw, the code of which I speak will be reusable (and opensource) TurboGears
>  widgets. 
Hey, sendmail is open source, but that doesn't mean you don't have to
work tirelessly to get it setup and working :-).

[Kevin Kofler]

Timothy Payne <tim <at> tmpco.com> writes:
>  I'm not a programmer please keep that in mind,  could a mirror be
> set up to 
>  use apt?  I used it on RH 7.3 @ Dag, and had forgot about it untlil then. 
>  But I assume a mirror will need help for free from smarter people than I.  
You don't need special mirrors to use APT for RPM anymore, it nowadays supports 
the repomd format yum is using.

        Kevin Kofler

[Ed Greshko]

Tom Horsley wrote:

>  Naturally, I turned to google, and all the top hits I
>  got were (mostly pretty informative) pages from
>  either ubuntu or gentoo web sites.
>  
>  I have had this same experience on different searches
>  many times before.
>  
>  I can imagine folks who constantly find descriptions
>  of how to solve their problems on ubuntu web pages
>  might at some point be tempted to just go ahead and
>  run ubuntu so they don't have to track down any
>  differences between the distros in order to follow the
>  advice.
>  
>  Of course they might get the same idea about gentoo,
>  but comparing the install process of gentoo and ubuntu
>  would send most folks screaming to ubuntu every time :-). 
Bit of Devil's Advocate here....

If the answers to the problems are found on ubuntu web pages doesn't that 
mean the problems also exist in ubuntu?  If ubuntu handled the problem 
directly then there would be no point in asking how to do it...  :-)

Do the results/resolution to the problem translate to other distros or are 
they specific to ubuntu?

FWIW, I have ubuntu installed on a VM and do play with it from time to time. 
  Probably need more time to learn its quarks.  But the one thing I noticed 
is that the folks on their mailing lists, IMHO, tend to be greener than 
average and the amount of bad advice or misinformation is greater than other 
lists that have insufferable geeks.  :-)





-- 
Proper treatment will cure a cold in seven days, but left to itself,
a cold will hang on for a week.
		-- Darrell Huff

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 5:30 PM, Tom Horsley <tom.horsley(a)att.net&gt; wrote:
>  Just another possible reason for an ubuntu preference:
>
>   I've just been trying to find out how to get my new
>   bluetooth keyboard to be automagically connected at
>   boot time.
>
>   Naturally, I turned to google, and all the top hits I
>   got were (mostly pretty informative) pages from
>   either ubuntu or gentoo web sites. 
This is the single most sensible reason to use Ubuntu. I can find no
other reason myself. Fedora has no equivalent to this.

-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

[Kevin Kofler]

Arch Willingham <arch <at> tuparks.com> writes:
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux
>  running except Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? 
All marketing.

All the Ubuntu policies are copied from either Debian (e.g. packaging format, 
only security updates for stable releases, Free Software*) or Fedora (e.g. 
6-month release cycle, Free Software*).

* (though they aren't quite as consistent as Fedora or Debian there, see 
their "restricted drivers" lameness)

What distinguishes Ubuntu from other distributions is the huge amount of 
marketing hype behind it.

        Kevin Kofler

[Tom Horsley]

Just another possible reason for an ubuntu preference:

I've just been trying to find out how to get my new
bluetooth keyboard to be automagically connected at
boot time.

Naturally, I turned to google, and all the top hits I
got were (mostly pretty informative) pages from
either ubuntu or gentoo web sites.

I have had this same experience on different searches
many times before.

I can imagine folks who constantly find descriptions
of how to solve their problems on ubuntu web pages
might at some point be tempted to just go ahead and
run ubuntu so they don't have to track down any
differences between the distros in order to follow the
advice.

Of course they might get the same idea about gentoo,
but comparing the install process of gentoo and ubuntu
would send most folks screaming to ubuntu every time :-).

[Rick Stevens]

vincenzo romero wrote:
>  *sigh* ...
>  
>  i guess either Xen it to run itunes on Windoze ..
>  
>  or Windoze and VMWare to run your favorite linux distro ...
>  
>  thanks then - if anyone know of any shareware or application that can
>  manage mp3 that would allow me to migrate my home network into linux
>  and bye-bye windoze and Apple for good! 
If you're not worried about DRM (digital rights management for those who
don't know the acronym), almost any Linux distro will play almost any
media.  MP3s are burdened with a copyright thing so you'll have to go
offshore to get an MP3 decoder, but there's a bunch of them out there.
I've used several.  Currently, I use Xine and/or Amarok a lot (Amarok
uses Xine as its playback engine).

To get MP3 capacity, you need to install xine-extras-nonfree, but that's
no biggie.

Once you've got that, you're good to go.  One of my machines acts as a
big media server (HDTV tuner, MP3 repository, OGG repository, general
file stuff as well) and the rest of the house uses its features.

>  
>  - V
>  
>  On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> > vincenzo romero wrote:
> >  > Great thread ...
> >  >
> >  > Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
> >  > ( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
> >  > availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
> >  > itunes support?  etc....
> >  >
> >  > My son's Apple G4 is a victim of logic board issues and soldering bad
> >  > design - I want to just suck the info out into our NAS drive and just
> >  > get a cheap laptop - wondering what linux version would be a good one
> >  > to deploy for home use ..
> >  >
> >  > any thoughts esp vis a vis mp3 support would be greatly appreciated ..
> >  >
> >
> >  There's not a huge difference among linux distros in the applications
> >  that are available if you track them down.  Most won't include anything
> >  with patented or even questionable functionality in the base distro.
> >  Fedora won't publically admit that such stuff exists.  Ubuntu has it in
> >  repositories that easily be enabled.  There are several media players
> >  around but I don't think any will play drm-affected AAC files from the
> >  itunes store and playlist management probably won't quite match itunes.
> >
> >
> >  --
> >    Les Mikesell
> >     lesmikesell(a)gmail.com
> >
> >  --
> >
> >
> > fedora-list mailing list
> >  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
> >  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
> >
>  
>  
>   

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer                       rps2(a)nerd.com -
- Hosting Consulting, Inc.                                           -
-                                                                    -
-   NEWS FLASH! Intelligence of mankind decreasing!  Details at...   -
-     uh, when, uh, the little hand is, uh, on the...  Aw, NUTS!     -
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[vincenzo romero]

Great thread ...

Quick question - for those of you who deployed Ubuntu for your home -
( i have played with it at work, indeed like a toy) ... does it have
availability of most applications that teenagers would like?  ....
itunes support?  etc....

My son's Apple G4 is a victim of logic board issues and soldering bad
design - I want to just suck the info out into our NAS drive and just
get a cheap laptop - wondering what linux version would be a good one
to deploy for home use ..

any thoughts esp vis a vis mp3 support would be greatly appreciated ..

- V

On Thu, Mar 27, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Tom Horsley <tom.horsley(a)att.net&gt; wrote:
>  On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:05:24 -0500
>   Rex Dieter <rdieter(a)math.unl.edu&gt; wrote:
>
>   > > It seems surprising to me in this age of code-sharing that anyone still
>   > > has to work tirelessly to re-invent a web server that provides the same
>   > > services as a million other web servers.  Isn't there something that is
>   > > reusable and would work for any project?
>   >
>   > fwiw, the code of which I speak will be reusable (and opensource) TurboGears
>   > widgets.
>
>   Hey, sendmail is open source, but that doesn't mean you don't have to
>   work tirelessly to get it setup and working :-).
>
>
>
>   --
>   fedora-list mailing list
>   fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>   To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list
>  


-- 
best,

Vince

[Rex Dieter]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:

>  I note that increasing numbers of third-party packages are easily
>  available for [K]ubuntu and sometimes not so easily for Fedora. Take a
>  look at getmiro.com for a typical example. Which distro do you think is
>  better supported by the Miro devels? 
Good thing one of the Miro developers is helping maintain Miro in the main
Fedora repository then. :)

-- Rex

[Rex Dieter]

Les Mikesell wrote:

>  Rex Dieter wrote:
> > Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >> OT: how can https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/ not have a
> >> search box?
> > 
> > Sssh... you didn't hear this from me, but... (ok, you did, still)...
> > The fedora-infrastucture folks are working tirelessly to provide
> > (something
> > like) that.  A sort of "My Fedora" portal, that can include all sorts of
> > customizable fedora'y content, including package info/updates, planet
> > blogs, bugzilla, and all sorts of other cool unspeakable hooks.
>  
>  It seems surprising to me in this age of code-sharing that anyone still
>  has to work tirelessly to re-invent a web server that provides the same
>  services as a million other web servers.  Isn't there something that is
>  reusable and would work for any project? 
fwiw, the code of which I speak will be reusable (and opensource) TurboGears
widgets.

-- Rex

[Les Mikesell]

Rex Dieter wrote:
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  
>  
> > OT: how can https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/ not have a
> > search box?
>  
>  Sssh... you didn't hear this from me, but... (ok, you did, still)...
>  The fedora-infrastucture folks are working tirelessly to provide (something
>  like) that.  A sort of "My Fedora" portal, that can include all sorts of
>  customizable fedora'y content, including package info/updates, planet
>  blogs, bugzilla, and all sorts of other cool unspeakable hooks. 
It seems surprising to me in this age of code-sharing that anyone still 
has to work tirelessly to re-invent a web server that provides the same 
services as a million other web servers.  Isn't there something that is 
reusable and would work for any project?

-- 
  Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Thu, 2008-03-27 at 06:56 -0500, Rex Dieter wrote:
>  Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
>  
>  > I note that increasing numbers of third-party packages are easily
>  > available for [K]ubuntu and sometimes not so easily for Fedora. Take a
>  > look at getmiro.com for a typical example. Which distro do you think is
>  > better supported by the Miro devels?
>  
>  Good thing one of the Miro developers is helping maintain Miro in the main
>  Fedora repository then. :) 
Indeed. In fact I just noticed this when I did an update this morning.
Pity it's not mentioned on the Miro site. The Download page leads you on
an endless (and circular) trek through multiple useless pages. I'll
complain to the site maintainers.

OT: how can https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/ not have a
search box?

poc

[Ric Moore]

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 15:24 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  2008/3/25 Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt;:
>  > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get an
>  > idea of why its seems so popular.
>  
>  Nothing good will come of this. 
Amen! Ric

-- 
================================================
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256 Sign up at: http://counter.li.org/
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/oar
http://www.wayward4now.net  <---down4now too
================================================

[Ian Chapman]

Les Mikesell wrote:

> > But I must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum
> has 
> > basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was magically 
> > different about deb.
>  
>  Try to find something that isn't included in the standard repository. 
>  With fedora, you won't even find the names of additional repositories 
>  documented, so you ask here.  You'll get several different answers and 
>  if you are looking for Sun Java, none of them will apply.  For anything 
>  else, like vlc or the Nvidia driver, you add all the recommended repos 
>  and tell yum to install something and you'll get rpm conflicts.   With 
>  ubuntu, you enable the pre-configured extra repositories, pick what you 
>  want and you are ready to run it. 
So it seems it's more about packaging strategy and what distros offer, 
rather than debs necessarily being inherently superior to rpm. I can 
understand what you've said in the context of Fedora and Ubuntu but Suse 
offers much of the same "non-free" stuff. Maybe Mandriva too I can't 
remember. I'd always assumed they were referring to the days when you 
tried to install program1.rpm which then said it needed libfoo.rpm, 
which in turn needed libbar.so.1 which you had to figure how which rpm 
it was in and so on, which is why I thought that viewpoint seemed outdated.

-- 
Ian Chapman.

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 14:15 -0500, Arthur Pemberton wrote:
>  On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Ian Chapman
>  <packages(a)amiga-hardware.com&gt; wrote:
>  > Arch Willingham wrote:
>  >
>  >  > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get
>  >  > an idea of why its seems so popular.
>  >
>  >  Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other answers,
>  >  on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't use
>  >  rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because
>  >  they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think
> that
>  >  view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)
>  >
>  
>  It's a ridiculous view point as in terms of dependencies rpms and debs
>  are almost equivalent. Both are capable of causing dep problems. The
>  only major diff that I am aware of is that devs have a concept of soft
>  deps for optional packages 
I use Fedora at home and have done for many years. I installed Kubuntu
for some family members and friends, and have recently installed it on
my office machine where I had also used Fedora for many years. Neither
system is problem-free, but [K]ubuntu tends to have far fewer dependancy
issues. It's also significantly easier to upgrade the distro from one
version to the next.

I note that increasing numbers of third-party packages are easily
available for [K]ubuntu and sometimes not so easily for Fedora. Take a
look at getmiro.com for a typical example. Which distro do you think is
better supported by the Miro devels?

None of this should be taken as a showstopping argument, just my 2c.

poc

[Les Mikesell]

Ian Chapman wrote:
>  
> >>  Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other answers,
> >>  on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't 
> >> use
> >>  rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because
> >>  they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think
> that
> >>  view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)
> >>
> > It's a ridiculous view point as in terms of dependencies rpms and debs
> > are almost equivalent.
>  
>  Well I've never extensively used any deb based distro but then I've been 
>  pretty stuck with RH and friends for about that last 10 years since 
>  starting out with RH 5.1 rough cuts on an Amiga of all things :) But I 
>  must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
>  basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was magically 
>  different about deb. 
Try to find something that isn't included in the standard repository. 
With fedora, you won't even find the names of additional repositories 
documented, so you ask here.  You'll get several different answers and 
if you are looking for Sun Java, none of them will apply.  For anything 
else, like vlc or the Nvidia driver, you add all the recommended repos 
and tell yum to install something and you'll get rpm conflicts.   With 
ubuntu, you enable the pre-configured extra repositories, pick what you 
want and you are ready to run it.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Paul Shaffer]

More people are becoming more advanced users.  I like to think of it in terms of a math
equation.  User + Purpose = OS.  For example:
   
  Noob, just point and click + Web and email = Windows
   
  Noob, just point and click + Web and email at work = Windows (Pro)
   
  Power user, still mostly point and click + Web and email = Ubuntu
   
  Power user, command line literate + Web and email = Fedora
   
  Sysadmin + basic nonessential services = ANYTHING, doesn't matter.
   
  Sysadmin + essential services = RHEL, CentOS, BSD
   
  Satellite systems engineer + Mission critical ground console = HPUX
   
  Or something along those lines.

       
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 3:07 PM, Bruce Byfield <bbyfield(a)axion.net&gt; wrote:
>  On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 19:50 +0000, Ian Chapman wrote:
>
>   > But I
>   > must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has
>   > basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was magically
>   > different about deb.
>
>   The reason for the confusion is that the supposed superiority of .DEBs
>   wasn't just the software, but the strict packaging policies and testing
>   of Debian, which historically were far more rigid than most
>   distributions', no matter what package system they used. You can still
>   see the difference today if you compare Ubuntu to Debian; generally
>   speaking, Debian's packages in official releases still have far fewer
>   problems.
>
>   In my experience, Fedora packages fare reasonably well compared to
>   Debian's, especially since the merge of the Core and Extras
>   repositories. I would say that Debian has an edge over Fedora, but that
>   may reflect the bias inherent in the fact that I've used Debian much
>   longer than Fedora. 

I think that's when the Fedora packing guys brought the build systems online.


-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

[Bruce Byfield]

On Wed, 2008-03-26 at 19:50 +0000, Ian Chapman wrote:

>  But I 
>  must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
>  basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was magically 
>  different about deb. 
The reason for the confusion is that the supposed superiority of .DEBs
wasn't just the software, but the strict packaging policies and testing
of Debian, which historically were far more rigid than most
distributions', no matter what package system they used. You can still
see the difference today if you compare Ubuntu to Debian; generally
speaking, Debian's packages in official releases still have far fewer
problems.

In my experience, Fedora packages fare reasonably well compared to
Debian's, especially since the merge of the Core and Extras
repositories. I would say that Debian has an edge over Fedora, but that
may reflect the bias inherent in the fact that I've used Debian much
longer than Fedora.

-- 
Bruce Byfield 604-421-7177
Burnaby, BC, Canada
web: http://members.axion.net/~bbyfield
blog: http://brucebyfield.wordpress.com/

[Ian Chapman]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:

> >  Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other
> answers,
> >  on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't use
> >  rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because
> >  they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think that
> >  view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)
> >
>  It's a ridiculous view point as in terms of dependencies rpms and debs
>  are almost equivalent. 
Well I've never extensively used any deb based distro but then I've been 
pretty stuck with RH and friends for about that last 10 years since 
starting out with RH 5.1 rough cuts on an Amiga of all things :) But I 
must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was magically 
different about deb.

-- 
Ian Chapman.

[Les Mikesell]

Arthur Pemberton wrote:
> >
> >  > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get
> >  > an idea of why its seems so popular.
> >
> >  Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other answers,
> >  on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't use
> >  rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because
> >  they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think that
> >  view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)
> >
>  
>  It's a ridiculous view point as in terms of dependencies rpms and debs
>  are almost equivalent. Both are capable of causing dep problems. The
>  only major diff that I am aware of is that devs have a concept of soft
>  deps for optional packages 
There don't seem to be a bazillion independent .deb repositories with 
conflicting contents, though, and more or at least equivalent total 
content.  Is that from fewer political/policy disagreements?

-- 
   Les Mikesell
     lesmikeell(a)gmail.com

[Arch Willingham]

Sorry...that was not my intention.

-----Original Message-----
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
Arthur Pemberton
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:25 PM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?

2008/3/25 Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt;:
>  I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better...just trying
> to get an
>  idea of why its seems so popular. 
Nothing good will come of this.

--
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

--
fedora-list mailing list
fedora-list(a)redhat.com
To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list

[Mike]

2008/3/26 Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt;:

>   I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way
> I
>  ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked (I
>  think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines running
>  it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of yesterday, is running
>  the beta of FC9.
>
>
>
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running
>  except Fedora. What's all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could download
>  an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since FCx seems to
>  work great.
>
>
>  

>  I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying
> to get an
>  idea of why its seems so popular.
>
>
>
>  Thanks!
>
>
>
>  Arch
>
>  --
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list 

Their marketing seems to have worked well. 'Linux for humans'. Also their
free CD drops and active forums do alot to help.

[Arthur Pemberton]

2008/3/25 Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt;:
>  I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying
> to get an
>  idea of why its seems so popular. 
Nothing good will come of this.

-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

[Arthur Pemberton]

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Ian Chapman
<packages(a)amiga-hardware.com&gt; wrote:
>  Arch Willingham wrote:
>
>   > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get
>   > an idea of why its seems so popular.
>
>   Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other answers,
>   on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't use
>   rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because
>   they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think that
>   view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)
>  
It's a ridiculous view point as in terms of dependencies rpms and debs
are almost equivalent. Both are capable of causing dep problems. The
only major diff that I am aware of is that devs have a concept of soft
deps for optional packages

-- 
Fedora 7 : sipping some of that moonshine
( www.pembo13.com )

[Ian Chapman]

Arch Willingham wrote:

>  I’m not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to
> get 
>  an idea of why its seems so popular. 
Well something else to throw into the pot along with the other answers, 
on several occasions I've heard Ubuntu fans cite the fact it doesn't use 
rpm (ubuntu uses deb) as one of the main reasons they use it because 
they don't like the "dependency hell" of rpm. Personally I think that 
view is at best outdated but each to their own. :-)

-- 
Ian Chapman.

[Robin Laing]

Arch Willingham wrote:
>  I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I
>
>  ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked 
>  (I think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines 
>  running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of yesterday, 
>  is running the beta of FC9.
>  
>   
>  
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running 
>  except Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could 
>  download an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since 
>  FCx seems to work great.
>  
>   
>  
>  I’m not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get 
>  an idea of why its seems so popular.
>  
>   
>  
>  Thanks!
>  
>   
>  
>  Arch
>   
Many have stated the ease of install and longer term support over 
Fedora.  Even the issues with codecs/software have been mentioned.

My feeling is it is applications already made for the distribution. 
There are an awful lot of applications that I have looked at recently 
that have Ubuntu versions available but I have to compile the source 
myself to get a Fedora version.  Some applications have FC4 or other 
earlier versions that do not work on F7 or F8.

I have not tried Ubuntu but our sys admin has put Ubuntu onto machines 
that used to run Fedora because of software and upgrade issues.  And 
upgrade issues are a big one.

Reading this forum shows the problems with Fedora when you look at the 
different repositories and how they conflict with each other.  It would 
be nice to be able to get packages from freshrpms, livna or atrpms 
without worrying about borking your system.

I think the way to look at is as "Easy as Windows."  I shudder at the 
comment but that is what I hear for comments.

-- 
Robin Laing

[Les Mikesell]

Alan Cox wrote:
>  
> > I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I ended up using
> Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked (I think it was FC3). Since that
> time, I have around fifteen machines running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop
> which, as of yesterday, is running the beta of FC9.
> >
> > With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running except Fedora.
> What's all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could download an install a copy but I
> never really saw any reason to since FCx seems to work great.
> >
> > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better...just trying to get an idea
> of why its seems so popular.
>  
>  I guess because it has a less technical focus - try it. One nice thing
>  about Linux is you don't have to buy different hardware and new software
>  licences to try a few and see what suits you best. 
And you pretty much end up with the same stuff running anyway. The 
differences are mostly in the install, update, and administration 
procedures except for the accidental version skew from the different 
release schedules.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Tom Horsley]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:18:58 -0400
Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt; wrote:

>  What's all the hype around Ubuntu? 
My take is: Pretty functional system fits on one CD.
Apps you see right away (like the system updater) look
prettier and function better than the corresponding
"first impression" kind of apps in redhat/fedora.

But ubuntu is too easy! I'm currently working on installing
gentoo, and expect to have a kernel that actually boots sometime
this week so I can finish the install :-).

[Bill Davidsen]

Arch Willingham wrote:
>  I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I
>
>  ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked 
>  (I think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines 
>  running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of yesterday, 
>  is running the beta of FC9.
>  
>   
>  
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running 
>  except Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could 
>  download an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since 
>  FCx seems to work great.
>  
>   
>  
>  I’m not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get 
>  an idea of why its seems so popular.
>   
For the average person it works without spending forever on lists, 
repositories, etc. It will install codecs you need without chastising 
you with warnings that the codec are illegal and can't be shipped, 
drivers for common hardware, etc.

Fedora is "pure" of code with questionable provenance or license, and is 
the ideal distribution for lawyers. It works well on servers, and gives 
you a change to learn how to get the RPMs you need to do desktop 
operations from alternate repositories.


-- 
Bill Davidsen <davidsen(a)tmr.com&gt;
   "We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
the machinations of the wicked."  - from Slashdot

[Alan Cox]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:18:58 -0400
Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt; wrote:

>  I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I
> ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked (I think it was
> FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines running it. All of them run FC8
> except my laptop which, as of yesterday, is running the beta of FC9.
>  
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running except Fedora.
> What's all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could download an install a copy but I
> never really saw any reason to since FCx seems to work great.
>  
>  I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better...just trying to get an idea of
> why its seems so popular. 
I guess because it has a less technical focus - try it. One nice thing
about Linux is you don't have to buy different hardware and new software
licences to try a few and see what suits you best.

Alan

[Tim]

On Tue, 2008-03-25 at 16:18 -0400, Arch Willingham wrote:
>  What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? 
A Linux alternative to the other OSs, where the user wants a turn-key
solution.  It, pretty much, does what they want without hard labour
(plays MP3s, includes drivers that aren't free, etc.).

The poor-man's Macintosh, perhaps?  ;-)

That Mac remark was all the more reinforced, for me, when I've had a
brief dabble with it and found that it was hard to get under the bonnet
and twiddle things.  Firstly, it's different enough from Red Hat that
I'm on unfamiliar ground.  Secondly, I'd seen the Ubuntu forums to have
far less nitty-gritty technical information.  I'm reminded of the
difference between Windows and Linux advice...

Linux advice being to install the whatsit package, then configure it,
with many users knowing how to do that once pointed in the right
direction.  Compared to Windows advice, which necessitated a recipe of
step-by-step instructions, including where to find things in the menu,
because the users doing these things didn't understand a thing about
what they were doing, and often didn't want to.

Yes, that's a generalisation, but it's been the chalk and cheese
differences that I've usually witnessed on the two platforms.  The "it's
all done for you" premise attracts more users who'll dabble without
learning, and resist learning as hard as they can.

- How do I get to the shops?
- It's down the road, 1km, on the left.
- But how do I get to the shops??!!
- You take your car keys out of your pocket, and put them in the door,
  turn the key...
- To the left, or to the right?
- Grrrrrmrmrr...  Try walking!

-- 
Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.
I read messages from the public lists.

[Konstantin Svist]

Arch Willingham wrote:
>  I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I 
>  ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that 
>  worked (I think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen 
>  machines running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of 
>  yesterday, is running the beta of FC9.
>
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running 
>  except Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could 
>  download an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since 
>  FCx seems to work great.
>
>  I’m not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get 
>  an idea of why its seems so popular.
>
>  Thanks!
>
>  Arch
>  
Fedora: here's a box opener, have fun! If you cut yourself, we might 
have some spare bandages - ask on the mailing list.
Ubuntu: here's a pair of safety scissors, enjoy! In the unlikely even 
that you cut yourself, there's a full-service hospital at ubuntuforums.org

That's the way I see it, anyway :)

Ubuntu is more suited for getting the hell out of user's way & making 
things safer/easier. Sometimes, that shtick means long time between 
updates.. which is why I moved to Fedora. It's not that I like living on 
the edge - it's just that I have a choice of whether or not I want to 
update to latest versions/etc.

[Rodolfo Alcazar Portillo]

Am Dienstag, den 25.03.2008, 16:18 -0400 schrieb Arch Willingham:
>  ... I have never seen any other version of Linux running except
>  Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could download
>  an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since FCx seems
>  to work great.  
My 2 cents, from my little experience:

Ubuntu was a great choice in its moment. Simplified the debian
philosophy, allowed any newbie to install and listen mp3, view movies,
i.e. start working and enjoying. Fedora, Suse, Mandrake, etc, needed
some workarounds and bash-ing for many things to start working. Was very
stable and had almost no bugs. Had a lot of publicity, Ubuntu is
supported by a wealthy sponsor. Nowadays, keeps its goodness, although
the rest of distros had learn a lot from Ubuntu. Fedora, I suppose,
learned good lessons from Ubuntu (example: Fedora Live) in order to keep
its market place.

Cheers!

----------------------------------------------
Rodolfo Alcazar - rodolfo.alcazar(a)padep.org.bo
otbits.blogspot.com / counter.li.org: #367962
----------------------------------------------
"Mein Homer ist kein Kommunist. Er ist vielleicht ein Lügner, ein
Schwein, ein Idiot und ein Kommunist, aber er ist ganz sicherlich kein
Porno-Star!"
- Abraham Simpson

[max]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  Arch Willingham wrote:
>  > I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I
>  > ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked
>  > (I think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines
>  > running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of yesterday,
>  > is running the beta of FC9.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running
>  > except Fedora. What's all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could
>  > download an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since
>  > FCx seems to work great.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  > I'm not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get
>  > an idea of why its seems so popular.
>
>  Usability is a priority for them and they have a budget to make some
>  improvements.  But, they haven't been through a really hard upgrade
>  transition (like a major kernel number) yet so it's hard to make a long
>  term comparison as to whether it is really easier to keep things running.
>
>  
I know Ubuntu keeps one long term release and then at least one short term.
The next major long term release is due out soon.


Max

[Les Mikesell]

Arch Willingham wrote:
>  I first started dabbling with Linux about three years ago. The way I
>
>  ended up using Fedora was it was the first link I clicked on that worked 
>  (I think it was FC3). Since that time, I have around fifteen machines 
>  running it. All of them run FC8 except my laptop which, as of yesterday, 
>  is running the beta of FC9.
>  
>   
>  
>  With that said, I have never seen any other version of Linux running 
>  except Fedora. What’s all the hype around Ubuntu? I realize I could 
>  download an install a copy but I never really saw any reason to since 
>  FCx seems to work great.
>  
>   
>  
>  I’m not trying to start a battle of which is better…just trying to get 
>  an idea of why its seems so popular. 
Usability is a priority for them and they have a budget to make some 
improvements.  But, they haven't been through a really hard upgrade 
transition (like a major kernel number) yet so it's hard to make a long 
term comparison as to whether it is really easier to keep things running.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
    lesmikesell(a)gmail.com

[Arch Willingham]

Thanks!

________________________________
From: fedora-list-bounces(a)redhat.com [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of
max bianco
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 4:32 PM
To: For users of Fedora
Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Arch Willingham
<[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Sorry...that was not my intention.

Don't worry about it, reading the list  is voluntary .  Ubuntu was my first  linux
install, i didn't stay  with it long.  It tries to be  as easy  for the
average(non-geek)user as possible.

Max

[max]

On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 4:27 PM, Arch Willingham <arch(a)tuparks.com&gt; wrote:

>  Sorry...that was not my intention.
>  
Don't worry about it, reading the list  is voluntary .  Ubuntu was my first
linux install, i didn't stay  with it long.  It tries to be  as easy  for
the average(non-geek)user as possible.

Max

[Tim]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Summerfield" <debian(a)herakles.homelinux.org&gt;
To: "For users of Fedora" <fedora-list(a)redhat.com&gt;
Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: What's all the hype over Ubuntu?


>  Ian Chapman wrote:
> > Les Mikesell wrote:
> >
> >>> But I must admit, I never really understood that viewpoint as yum has 
> >>> basically eliminated "dependency hell" and wondered what was
> magically 
> >>> different about deb.
> >>
> >> Try to find something that isn't included in the standard repository. 
> >> With fedora, you won't even find the names of additional repositories 
> >> documented, so you ask here.  You'll get several different answers and 
> >> if you are looking for Sun Java, none of them will apply.  For anything 
> >> else, like vlc or the Nvidia driver, you add all the recommended repos 
> >> and tell yum to install something and you'll get rpm conflicts.   With 
> >> ubuntu, you enable the pre-configured extra repositories, pick what you 
> >> want and you are ready to run it.
> >
> > So it seems it's more about packaging strategy and what distros offer, 
> > rather than debs necessarily being inherently superior to rpm. I can 
> > understand what you've said in the context of Fedora and Ubuntu but Suse 
> > offers much of the same "non-free" stuff. Maybe Mandriva too I can't 
> > remember. I'd always assumed they were referring to the days when you 
> > tried to install program1.rpm which then said it needed libfoo.rpm, which 
> > in turn needed libbar.so.1 which you had to figure how which rpm it was 
> > in and so on, which is why I thought that viewpoint seemed outdated.
> >
>
>  debs have different information, and the ability to have different 
>  strength dependencies:
>  requires, like with rpm
>  recommends - may work better with these
>  suggests -- may work better with these.
>
>  At one point (years ago) I had to install X on RHL to use Ghostscript. 
>  Complete nonsense of course, but dpkg might have handled that better.
>
>  apt-get is about equivalent to yum, but does more such as download and 
>  (optionally) build source - it can get and install build deps too, it's 
>  quicker (at least with simple stuff) (at least with default options). 
>  apt-get (like up2date) can download updates without installing them:
>    apt-get -yud dist-upgrade
>
>  yum's tools might be equivalent, but it's a terrible mish-mash. AFAIK 
>  there's no proper equivalent _in yum_ to the above apt-get command which 
>  fetches all available updates and copes with adding new packages - it's 
>  not only for release upgrades equivalent to f8 to f9.
>
>
>
>
>
>  -- 
>
>  Cheers
>  John
>
>  -- spambait
>  1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu  Z1aaaaaaa(a)coco.merseine.nu
>  -- Advice
>  http://webfoot.com/advice/email.top.php
>  http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375
>
>  You cannot reply off-list:-)
>
>  -- 
>  fedora-list mailing list
>  fedora-list(a)redhat.com
>  To unsubscribe: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-list 

I'm not a programmer please keep that in mind,  could a mirror be set up to 
use apt?  I used it on RH 7.3 @ Dag, and had forgot about it untlil then. 
But I assume a mirror will need help for free from smarter people than I.

[Rex Dieter]

Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:


>  OT: how can https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/packages/ not have
> a
>  search box? 
Sssh... you didn't hear this from me, but... (ok, you did, still)...
The fedora-infrastucture folks are working tirelessly to provide (something
like) that.  A sort of "My Fedora" portal, that can include all sorts of
customizable fedora'y content, including package info/updates, planet
blogs, bugzilla, and all sorts of other cool unspeakable hooks.

-- Rex