list/email -- toppost -- off topic..

[bruce]

Hey..

long time lurker.

every now and then a thread will evolve, with multiple inputs over time.

in some cases, someone will "say" -- don't top post!

I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to check
out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments" within a email
thread..

as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
wherever it does.

quick search, didn't find anything yet, so thought I'd post here as well.
Any solutions to this that you guys have seen/implemented?

thanks

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 06:31:51 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> every now and then a thread will evolve, with multiple inputs over
> time.
>
> in some cases, someone will "say" -- don't top post!

Top-posting is annoying because the content is not at the right place.
This is essential especially for longer discussions.
> I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to
> check out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments"
> within a email thread..
>
> as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
> wherever it does.
>
> quick search, didn't find anything yet, so thought I'd post here as
> well. Any solutions to this that you guys have seen/implemented?

Gmail and most other web mailers (also some desktop clients) are just
crap for participating in mailing lists. Get a real mail software like
Claws Mail or Thunderbird and connect to gmail with that.

[bruce]

Sorry.. that's not happening..

gmail will continue to be used.. in fact, it's used by quite a few people
around the world.

i get what you're saying though..

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:35 AM Marco Moock  wrote:
> Am 26.04.2025 um 06:31:51 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> > every now and then a thread will evolve, with multiple inputs over
> > time.
> >
> > in some cases, someone will "say" -- don't top post!
>
> Top-posting is annoying because the content is not at the right place.
> This is essential especially for longer discussions.
> > I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to
> > check out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments"
> > within a email thread..
> >
> > as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
> > wherever it does.
> >
> > quick search, didn't find anything yet, so thought I'd post here as
> > well. Any solutions to this that you guys have seen/implemented?
>
> Gmail and most other web mailers (also some desktop clients) are just
> crap for participating in mailing lists. Get a real mail software like
> Claws Mail or Thunderbird and connect to gmail with that.
>
> --
> Gruß
> Marco
> Send unsolicited bulk mail to [e-mail]
>
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[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 06:45:15 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> Sorry.. that's not happening..
>
> gmail will continue to be used.. in fact, it's used by quite a few
> people around the world.

Most of them don't take part in mailing lists. If they do, they might
get bullied away as others (especially "grey-bearded" technicians) are
not that happy with the gmail user's communication style.

[bruce]

well..  I think your using  the bully term is most appropriate!   but not
too welcoming if u want linux to spread to others!   but im not trying to
fight that battle..   the world is waaaay too screwed up for that!

thanks

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 6:48 AM Marco Moock  wrote:
> Am 26.04.2025 um 06:45:15 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> > Sorry.. that's not happening..
> >
> > gmail will continue to be used.. in fact, it's used by quite a few
> > people around the world.
>
> Most of them don't take part in mailing lists. If they do, they might
> get bullied away as others (especially "grey-bearded" technicians) are
> not that happy with the gmail user's communication style.
>
> --
> Gruß
> Marco
> Send unsolicited bulk mail to [e-mail]
>
> users mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
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[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:35 AM Marco Moock  wrote:
> Am 26.04.2025 um 06:31:51 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> > every now and then a thread will evolve, with multiple inputs over
> > time.
> >
> > in some cases, someone will "say" -- don't top post!
>
> Top-posting is annoying because the content is not at the right place.
> This is essential especially for longer discussions.
> > I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to
> > check out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments"
> > within a email thread..
> >
> > as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
> > wherever it does.
> >
> > quick search, didn't find anything yet, so thought I'd post here as
> > well. Any solutions to this that you guys have seen/implemented?
>
> Gmail and most other web mailers (also some desktop clients) are just
> crap for participating in mailing lists. Get a real mail software like
> Claws Mail or Thunderbird and connect to gmail with that.

One of the most important reasons I use Gmail is because it supports
multi-factor authentication (mfa). MFA is great at helping keeping an
account secure. Consider, the IETF has never updated SMPT, IMAP or POP
to include MFA workflows.

For me, the choice had nothing to do with composition features. And to
point out the obvious... top posting is a choice by the user. It is
not a property of a mail client.

Jeff

[bruce]

hi Jeff.

thanks.   as far as I can tell.  and it could be user err!!  one can reply
at top  or end.   I haven't found a way within a msg to insert comments at
a given point of a thread?  let me know if there's a way!

thanks

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 7:20 AM Jeffrey Walton  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 6:35 AM Marco Moock  wrote:
> > Am 26.04.2025 um 06:31:51 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> > > every now and then a thread will evolve, with multiple inputs over
> > > time.
> > >
> > > in some cases, someone will "say" -- don't top post!
> >
> > Top-posting is annoying because the content is not at the right place.
> > This is essential especially for longer discussions.
> > > I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to
> > > check out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments"
> > > within a email thread..
> > >
> > > as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
> > > wherever it does.
> > >
> > > quick search, didn't find anything yet, so thought I'd post here as
> > > well. Any solutions to this that you guys have seen/implemented?
> >
> > Gmail and most other web mailers (also some desktop clients) are just
> > crap for participating in mailing lists. Get a real mail software like
> > Claws Mail or Thunderbird and connect to gmail with that.
>
> One of the most important reasons I use Gmail is because it supports
> multi-factor authentication (mfa). MFA is great at helping keeping an
> account secure. Consider, the IETF has never updated SMPT, IMAP or POP
> to include MFA workflows.
>
> For me, the choice had nothing to do with composition features. And to
> point out the obvious... top posting is a choice by the user. It is
> not a property of a mail client.
> Jeff
>
> users mailing list -- [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe send an email to [e-mail]
> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
> List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
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[Jonathan Billings]

On Apr 26, 2025, at 07:30, bruce  wrote:
> hi Jeff.
>
> thanks.   as far as I can tell.  and it could be user err!!  one can reply at top  or end.   I haven't found a way within a msg to insert comments at a given point of a thread?  let me know if there's a way!
>
> thanks

I use gmail for my work account, it’s not too difficult.  When replying, near the bottom of the message there are three grey dots.  Click on them.  It should expand to the message, where you can reply in-line.

For what it’s worth, I like using my iPad to read and reply to email, and every single time I post I have to copy my signature from the top of the message and paste it at the bottom, trim excessive quoted text, and general make it a bit more presentable.  I have to be careful not to paste formatted text because the built in client likes to create MIME attachments if I do it wrong.

[Sam Varshavchik]

Jeffrey Walton writes:
> One of the most important reasons I use Gmail is because it supports
> multi-factor authentication (mfa). MFA is great at helping keeping an
> account secure. Consider, the IETF has never updated SMPT, IMAP or POP
> to include MFA workflows.

Neither SMTP, or IMAP, or POP3, will ever "include MFA workflows" for the  
same reason that, say, a recipe for a strawberry shortcake will never  
include jalapeno peppers: it does not belong there. All three protocols  
implement SASL, and that's as far as they go, or should go.

A brief search finds several implementations of OTP on top of SASL. There's  
your MFA for SMTP, IMAP, and POP3. You're welcome.

[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 2025-04-26 at 07:30 -0400, bruce wrote:
> thanks.   as far as I can tell.  and it could be user err!!  one can reply
> at top  or end.   I haven't found a way within a msg to insert comments at
> a given point of a thread?  let me know if there's a way!

I use Gmail via IMAP for mailing lists, with Evolution as MUA, but
occasionally on another machine have had to reply with the web
interface and have taken care to do this correctly. It's trivial but
laborious. Expand the message being replied to and simply edit it as
you would anything else.

Gmail at one time had a "Labs" feature which made this much easier. It
not only placed the cursor at the end but if you preselected the
material you wanted to quote it included only that and not the whole
message. Unfortunately that feature was retired several years ago,
leaving manual editing as the only recourse.

poc

[bruce]

hi Johnathan.

did a quick test.  gmail from android phone.  saw the 3 dots at the end..
when selecting, the thread is displayed.  but appears to be in a block that
can't be manipulated.  has solid left side lines that show indentation
thread segments.

hmmm...

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 7:52 AM Jonathan Billings  wrote:
> On Apr 26, 2025, at 07:30, bruce  wrote:
>
> hi Jeff.
>
> thanks.   as far as I can tell.  and it could be user err!!  one can reply
> at top  or end.   I haven't found a way within a msg to insert comments at
> a given point of a thread?  let me know if there's a way!
>
> thanks
>
> I use gmail for my work account, it’s not too difficult.  When replying,
> near the bottom of the message there are three grey dots.  Click on them.
> It should expand to the message, where you can reply in-line.
>
> For what it’s worth, I like using my iPad to read and reply to email, and
> every single time I post I have to copy my signature from the top of the
> message and paste it at the bottom, trim excessive quoted text, and general
> make it a bit more presentable.  I have to be careful not to paste
> formatted text because the built in client likes to create MIME attachments
> if I do it wrong.
>
> --
> Jonathan Billings
> --
> _______________________________________________
> users mailing list -- [e-mail]
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> Fedora Code of Conduct:
> https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/
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[Patrick O'Callaghan]

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025, 13:04 bruce,  wrote:
> hi Johnathan.
>
> did a quick test.  gmail from android phone.  saw the 3 dots at the end..
> when selecting, the thread is displayed.  but appears to be in

You mean like this?

a block that can't be manipulated.  has solid left side lines that show
> indentation thread segments.

Replying from my Android phone. Note that I also deleted all the crap at
the end.

poc

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 07:07:49 Uhr schrieb bruce:
> well..  I think your using  the bully term is most appropriate!   but
> not too welcoming if u want linux to spread to others!   but im not
> trying to fight that battle..   the world is waaaay too screwed up
> for that!

If those people don't want to use a reasonable mailer, they might use
web forums to ask their questions.

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 07:19:45 Uhr schrieb Jeffrey Walton:
> One of the most important reasons I use Gmail is because it supports
> multi-factor authentication (mfa). MFA is great at helping keeping an
> account secure. Consider, the IETF has never updated SMPT, IMAP or POP
> to include MFA workflows.

If people used long passwords and made sure they don't give them to
phishing sites, not MFA would be needed.
> For me, the choice had nothing to do with composition features. And to
> point out the obvious... top posting is a choice by the user. It is
> not a property of a mail client.

Some clients make inline posting almost impossible or very hard, e.g.
current versions of Outlook.

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 07:52:08 Uhr schrieb Jonathan Billings:
> For what it’s worth, I like using my iPad to read and reply to email,
> and every single time I post I have to copy my signature from the top
> of the message and paste it at the bottom, trim excessive quoted
> text, and general make it a bit more presentable.  I have to be
> careful not to paste formatted text because the built in client likes
> to create MIME attachments if I do it wrong.

That's why I discourage using such clients for mail. I only use Claws
Mail at home, I don't have a "smart" phone or a tablet, as I don't like
their user interface.

[Michael Schwendt]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 2:04 PM bruce  wrote:
> hi Johnathan.
>
> did a quick test.  gmail from android phone.  saw the 3 dots at the end..
> when selecting, the thread is displayed.  but appears to be in a block that
> can't be manipulated.

Works here.

[Neal Becker]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 9:25 AM Michael Schwendt 
wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 2:04 PM bruce  wrote:
> > hi Johnathan.
> >
> > did a quick test.  gmail from android phone.  saw the 3 dots at the
> > end..  when selecting, the thread is displayed.  but appears to be in a
> > block that can't be manipulated.
>
> Works here.

I wish I could use an alternative interface to gmail, such as thunderbird.
Problem is, gmail has a really useful way of labeling mail into e.g.,
promotions, social, forums,...  that just works so well and I don't think
anything else can match.  But these labels don't work through IMAP.  So
there just isn't any other interface that provides that vital (to me)
feature.

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2025 um 09:38:41 Uhr schrieb Neal Becker:
> I wish I could use an alternative interface to gmail, such as
> thunderbird.

Gmail supports IMAP, either with an app password or with OAuth.
> Problem is, gmail has a really useful way of labeling mail into
> e.g., promotions, social, forums,...  that just works so well and I
> don't think anything else can match.  But these labels don't work
> through IMAP.  So there just isn't any other interface that provides
> that vital (to me) feature.

You can create your own rulesets for that. Does gmail support +
addresses?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 7:57 AM Sam Varshavchik  wrote:
> Jeffrey Walton writes:
> > One of the most important reasons I use Gmail is because it supports
> > multi-factor authentication (mfa). MFA is great at helping keeping an
> > account secure. Consider, the IETF has never updated SMPT, IMAP or POP
> > to include MFA workflows.
>
> Neither SMTP, or IMAP, or POP3, will ever "include MFA workflows" for the
> same reason that, say, a recipe for a strawberry shortcake will never
> include jalapeno peppers: it does not belong there. All three protocols
> implement SASL, and that's as far as they go, or should go.
>
> A brief search finds several implementations of OTP on top of SASL. There's
> your MFA for SMTP, IMAP, and POP3. You're welcome.

From RFC 9051, Section 6.2.2.  AUTHENTICATE Command,
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9051/:

Note
      that the SASL framework allows for the creation of SASL mechanisms
      that support 2-factor authentication (2FA); however, none are
      fully ready to be recommended by this document.

Jeff

[Tim]

On Sat, 2025-04-26 at 06:31 -0400, bruce wrote:
> I'm using gmail, so recently, I had a few spare mins, and decided to
> check out.. can gmail permit the insertion of "content/comments"
> within a email thread..
>
> as opposed to hitting "reply" and letting the app place the comment
> wherever it does.

I just did a test on an Android tablet, to see if it's changed since
the last time.  And while the gmail app is a hideous thing for writing
and replying to emails, it is quite possible to break into the middle
of a slab of text.  It's not so great for reading mail either, but it's
do-able.

(Hint, try a different reply button than the plain reply button.)

Likewise, my experience was similar via the gmail website, though it's
easier to type because I have a proper keyboard.

Also, if I fetch my gmail on a mail client like Evolution, I can use it
like proper email.

Just because the mail thingy you're currently using presents your
cursor above a quoted slab of text does not mean that you have to type
there.  You can delete the blank space it'll put above quoted text. 
You can put the cursor somewhere else and reply.  You can plonk the
cursor into the middle of a block of text, hit return a few times and
break the block apart.  You can plonk it down below the quoted text.

That Google managed to make something worse than Hotmail is kind of
staggering, but not surprising.  Just finding my latest mail in my
inbox is ridiculous effort.  I tend to only use their web interface to
fix something, and only use the mobile app for those things that
require registration and email me a confirmation link.

For what it's worth, nearly ever email I reply to on here I edit the
crap out of it, because rarely is a full-quote needed nor wanted, and
I'm not lazy.

And if I have to reply to some crazy convoluted message that makes it
hard to do a neat reply, either because of how they wrote it, or the
thing I have to respond in is awful.  I tend to delete the quoted text
and respond like it's some kind of legal letter, and write a brief
explanatory intro before my responses.  For example:

1. In response your comment about top quoting...

Yes, I can avoid top quoting on the Gmail app, and their website.  I
delete the empty space it puts above the quote, then move my cursor to
elsewhere on the page where I'm going to put my response.

2. And regarding putting responses into the middle of quotes...

Yes, I can drop the cursor into the middle of text, break it into
sections, and reply the relevant parts of the text in a coherent
manner.

3. Regarding liking gmails special features beyond normal email..

They're not something that I use.

To be honest, I only use gmail where I virtually have to.  And there
are advantages to having more than one address, using a completely
different one for mailing lists.

Every now and then someone does a "it's too hard for me" to do things
the same as everybody else.  Usually it's not that hard.  It just
requires a bit of experimentation.  Having to fit in with others is a
part of life.

[bruce]

On Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 8:20 AM Patrick O'Callaghan 
wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Apr 2025, 13:04 bruce,  wrote:
> > hi Johnathan.
> >
> > did a quick test.  gmail from android phone.  saw the 3 dots at the
> > end..  when selecting, the thread is displayed.  but appears to be in
>
> You mean like this?

haa!!!
>

so.  as I thought.  a user error

doh!!

thanks poc!!
> >
> poc
>
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[Sam Varshavchik]

Jeffrey Walton writes:
> On Sat, Apr 26, 2025 at 7:57 AM Sam Varshavchik   
> wrote:
> > A brief search finds several implementations of OTP on top of SASL. There's
> > your MFA for SMTP, IMAP, and POP3. You're welcome.
>
> From RFC 9051, Section 6.2.2.  AUTHENTICATE Command,
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9051/:
>   Note
>   that the SASL framework allows for the creation of SASL mechanisms
>   that support 2-factor authentication (2FA); however, none are
>   fully ready to be recommended by this document.

RFC 9051 is IMAP, but the same applies to POP and SMTP.