Between F11 and F12, which would you choose?

[Reg Clemens]

I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.

I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
to say about the pair.

[Michael Schwendt]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 01:17:15 -0700, reg wrote:
> I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
>
> I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> to say about the pair.

F11.  But you need to consider your specific requirements (if any).

For GNOME desktop usage, F12 is less stable here. There seem to be
problems in nautilus/gnome-panel/dbus, for example, as sometimes there
are crashes which make the desktop icons disappear.
http://bugz.fedoraproject.org/nautilus is flooded with ABRT generated
tickets, which is evidence of how many people are affected by such issues.

[Anoop]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM,   wrote:
> I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
>
> I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> to say about the pair.

F11. Everything use to work there.
In F12, my sound is not working and sometimes my Laptop's keyboard
stop working, until I reboot. This is really annoying.

Thanks,
Anoop
> --
>                                        Reg.Clemens
>                                        [e-mail]
>
> --
> users mailing list
> [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

[Sawrub]

@ Anoop
Does your mouse also stop to work. As in my case the keyboard and
mouse both stop to work and i have to restart the machine. Faced the
same issue with live CD of karmic too so was considering this to be a
hardware issue.

Thanks
Saurabh

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Anoop  wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM,   wrote:
> > I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> > Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
> >
> > I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> > the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> > that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> > to say about the pair.
>
> F11. Everything use to work there.
> In F12, my sound is not working and sometimes my Laptop's keyboard
> stop working, until I reboot. This is really annoying.
>
> Thanks,
> Anoop
> > --
> >                                        Reg.Clemens
> >                                        [e-mail]
> >
> > --
> > users mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
>
> --
> users mailing list
> [e-mail]
> To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

[Tony Molloy]

On Friday 29 January 2010 11:31:44 Saurabh Sharma wrote:
> @ Anoop
> Does your mouse also stop to work. As in my case the keyboard and
> mouse both stop to work and i have to restart the machine. Faced the
> same issue with live CD of karmic too so was considering this to be a
> hardware issue.
>
> Thanks
> Saurabh

I've had the same problem but was blaming it on my KVM switch ;-)

Tony
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Anoop  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM,   wrote:
> > > I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> > > Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough
> > > alone.
> > >
> > > I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> > > the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> > > that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> > > to say about the pair.
> >
> > F11. Everything use to work there.
> > In F12, my sound is not working and sometimes my Laptop's keyboard
> > stop working, until I reboot. This is really annoying.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Anoop
> > > --
> > >                                        Reg.Clemens
> > >                                        [e-mail]
> > >
> > > --
> > > users mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > > Guidelines:
> > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
> >
> > --
> > users mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > Guidelines:
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

[Anoop]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Saurabh Sharma  wrote:
> @ Anoop
> Does your mouse also stop to work. As in my case the keyboard and
> mouse both stop to work and i have to restart the machine. Faced the
> same issue with live CD of karmic too so was considering this to be a
> hardware issue.

No Saurabh, Its just the keyboard, everything else is fine. I do a
reboot gracefully using my mouse :)

Thanks,
Anoop
> Thanks
> Saurabh
>
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Anoop  wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM,   wrote:
> > > I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> > > Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
> > >
> > > I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> > > the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> > > that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> > > to say about the pair.
> >
> > F11. Everything use to work there.
> > In F12, my sound is not working and sometimes my Laptop's keyboard
> > stop working, until I reboot. This is really annoying.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Anoop
> > > --
> > >                                        Reg.Clemens
> > >                                        [e-mail]
> > >
> > > --
> > > users mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
> >
> > --
> > users mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

[Anoop]

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Anoop  wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Saurabh Sharma  wrote:
> > @ Anoop
> > Does your mouse also stop to work. As in my case the keyboard and
> > mouse both stop to work and i have to restart the machine. Faced the
> > same issue with live CD of karmic too so was considering this to be a
> > hardware issue.
>
> No Saurabh, Its just the keyboard, everything else is fine. I do a
> reboot gracefully using my mouse :)

The behaviour which you are talking is seen on my Desktop running F12.
Recently some update broke its resolutions also.
> Thanks,
> Anoop
> > Thanks
> > Saurabh
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Anoop  wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:47 PM,   wrote:
> > > > I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> > > > Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
> > > >
> > > > I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> > > > the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> > > > that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> > > > to say about the pair.
> > >
> > > F11. Everything use to work there.
> > > In F12, my sound is not working and sometimes my Laptop's keyboard
> > > stop working, until I reboot. This is really annoying.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Anoop
> > > > --
> > > >                                        Reg.Clemens
> > > >                                        [e-mail]
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > users mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > > > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines
> > >
> > > --
> > > users mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > To unsubscribe or change subscription options:
> > > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users
> > > Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/MailingListGuidelines

[Patrick Bartek]

--- On Fri, 1/29/10, [e-mail]  wrote:
> I have a half dozen machines updated
> to F11, and one to F12.
> Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave
> well enough alone.
>
> I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable'
> status, and
> the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more
> months to reach
> that status, but would be interested in hearing what other
> users have
> to say about the pair.

Stay with F11 for now as long as it does everything you need it to do without problems.  "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has always been my philosophy.

B

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Freitag, den 29.01.2010, 01:17 -0700 schrieb [e-mail]:
> I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
>
> I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> to say about the pair.

It depends on your definition of "stable":
If you define stable as "everything works", then I'd say go for F12. F12
is one of the best releases we ever had, it was already rock solid when
it was still the beta or release candidate.
But when you define stable as feature complete, no API changes and only
a few updates, then it's F11. There is still a lot of updates coming for
F12 while F11 has calmed down.

Regards,
Christoph

[Roger]

Stay with F11 for now as long as it does everything you need it to do 
without problems. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has always been my 
philosophy.

I entirely agree with this, there are still too many problems with 
Fedora 12.
As someone (Craig, I think) pointed out to me a while ago, new releases 
are test beds not intended for production.

The question remains: Do you just want to experiment and incur the 
problems that require expertise to fix, or do you want to use the os to 
drive applications which achieve results, if the latter then stick with 
Fedora 11.

Roger

[Alan Cox]

> The question remains: Do you just want to experiment and incur the 
> problems that require expertise to fix, or do you want to use the os to 
> drive applications which achieve results, if the latter then stick with 
> Fedora 11.

12 is visually much nicer, and has some good improvements - but I think
that's good advice. The FC12 virtualisation still crashes (in bugzilla
getting debugged) and there are some other rough edges.

[Allann Jones]

F12 fixes all the problems on a ACER notebook that I have including
keyboard that I had problems on F10 (US International with ABNT2
layout).

But on a notebook with SiS chipsets (671/771) I still using F11
because the xorg version on F12 has break some graphic drivers that
depends on the old xorg architecture (maybe the major problems are
with shared vga static variables defined on xf86resources.h that was
removed). I got the SiS driver from Debian and build for F11 and need
to compile the latest stable kernel to put ACPI (hibernate and suspend
capabilities) correctly.

I still using F11 on a machine with NVidia graphic cards but I will
try to upgrade. F11 fixes many problems found on F8 on that machine
including the video resolution. On machines with Intel graphic cards
F12 is great.

Gnome 2.28 is great. Many Nautilus bugs are fixed on display of
directories in tree mode. I think that Gnome cut some old great
resources to reorganize them and put each one again in a consistent
and simpler mode in the correct time.

F12 has some problems on v4l that F11 does not have. On F12 sometimes
is necessary to download manually and build the latest v4l-dvb for
some webcams to work correctly, I think the problem is on libv4l.

I think that F12 can be better if upgrade the kernel to the latest
release to use the new ACPI functionalities, running on a greater
number of portable computers and having a functional hibernate and
suspend capabilities, and without the need to disable ACPI on
installer (that on F12 is better but the 2.6.32 or later kernels is
great). Some variables was changed with this new kernel, but this was
already ignored with xorg package.

Read the release notes to check if your architecture was marked as
obsolete on F12 or not.

Regards.

[Roger]

On 01/30/2010 10:14 AM, Alan Cox wrote:
> > The question remains: Do you just want to experiment and incur the
> > problems that require expertise to fix, or do you want to use the os to
> > drive applications which achieve results, if the latter then stick with
> > Fedora 11.
>
> 12 is visually much nicer, and has some good improvements - but I think
> that's good advice. The FC12 virtualisation still crashes (in bugzilla
> getting debugged) and there are some other rough edges.

Agreed.
Give it time and it will be a winner, but then Fedora 13 or 14 will be 
up and running.
This is why I look into upgrading a production os every  2nd or 3rd 
version and just play around with the latest version getting the hang of 
it's new attributes and capabilities.
R

[Bill Davidsen]

[e-mail] wrote:
> I have a half dozen machines updated to F11, and one to F12.
> Im wondering if I should update the F11s to F12 or leave well enough alone.
>
> I realize that the F11 distribution has reached a 'stable' status, and
> the F12 distribution will probably take a couple more months to reach
> that status, but would be interested in hearing what other users have
> to say about the pair.

A belated comment, F12 is worse than I thought it was. I have put it on six 
machines, reinstalled F11 on three, run two using the vesa video, and one works 
for the moment, although I have regular backups of it, and a set of F11 install 
and upgrade material stored in the same room.

Unless there is some major reason for F12, skip it, all the problems I have had 
were with display, keyboard, touchpad, or GNOME bits. Just one frustrating user 
interface thing after another. As a server it works fine, boot into runlevel 
three, run all my X apps from a remote display and it works fine. The only 
laptop which is useful run 2.6.33-rc5 plus a few patches, which I built myself. 
Not the optimal way to go.

Good luck with whatever you install.

[Allann Jones]

To fix one of my problems, I found a driver for SiS 671/771 graphic
card to X.org greater than 7.3 at here:

- http://estebanordano.com.ar/sis-m671m672-driver-for-xorg-xserver-7-5-on-debi...

Compiled and work on F12. It needs a fix on make 'man', fix or comment
it on Makefile.

But only 2D resources is working, no 3D, so no compiz, but the
resolution and performance is good.

The updates on F12 fixed the v4l problems on a Sonix webcam and on
Digital TV receivers, only needed to add the firmware files on
/lib/firmware.

There is a RPM for Mandriva that contains some firmware files at here:

- http://rpmlinux.org/dvb-firmware-pack

A howto for Digital TV configuration:

- http://dougsland.livejournal.com/103169.html

Need to configure the channels from the frequency table to each
country. On Brazil is like this:

- http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/ISDB-T_Frequency_Table

Install 'dvb-apps' and pass the file that contains the frequency table
to 'scandvb' application and redirect the output to a file, this
output is the channels frequencies that VLC player understand.

No need anymore to manually install the v4l-dvb from git. The RPM from
F12 works great.

The ACPI only works on the kernel 2.6.32-git* series on a ASUStek
board, not on older and newer with the same configuration. On newer
kernels I need to disable local APIC on boot with 'nolapic', so loose
hibernation and brightness control, I am sniffing the cause. But for a
while I am using 2.6.32-git14 and it works great.

I compiled and installed a Ethernet driver for Realtek 8111/8168B from
the Realtek homepage and blacklist the default driver module, only
need to add some 'include' definitions on the source that was changed
on newer kernels.

I only need to configure some soft-modems now based on ALSA ;)

Thank you. Regards.

Linux rules.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:34 AM, Allann Jones  wrote:
> F12 fixes all the problems on a ACER notebook that I have including
> keyboard that I had problems on F10 (US International with ABNT2
> layout).
>
> But on a notebook with SiS chipsets (671/771) I still using F11
> because the xorg version on F12 has break some graphic drivers that
> depends on the old xorg architecture (maybe the major problems are
> with shared vga static variables defined on xf86resources.h that was
> removed). I got the SiS driver from Debian and build for F11 and need
> to compile the latest stable kernel to put ACPI (hibernate and suspend
> capabilities) correctly.
>
> I still using F11 on a machine with NVidia graphic cards but I will
> try to upgrade. F11 fixes many problems found on F8 on that machine
> including the video resolution. On machines with Intel graphic cards
> F12 is great.
>
> Gnome 2.28 is great. Many Nautilus bugs are fixed on display of
> directories in tree mode. I think that Gnome cut some old great
> resources to reorganize them and put each one again in a consistent
> and simpler mode in the correct time.
>
> F12 has some problems on v4l that F11 does not have. On F12 sometimes
> is necessary to download manually and build the latest v4l-dvb for
> some webcams to work correctly, I think the problem is on libv4l.
>
> I think that F12 can be better if upgrade the kernel to the latest
> release to use the new ACPI functionalities, running on a greater
> number of portable computers and having a functional hibernate and
> suspend capabilities, and without the need to disable ACPI on
> installer (that on F12 is better but the 2.6.32 or later kernels is
> great). Some variables was changed with this new kernel, but this was
> already ignored with xorg package.
>
> Read the release notes to check if your architecture was marked as
> obsolete on F12 or not.