problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

To all:

Installed f12 without any problems.

Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I could 
edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.

Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"

Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
cliché again, "not groovy".

I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours between 
friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper (which may be 
not documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to kick the X.

I have three computer on a KVM and I often need to kick one of them if 
it boots up and the KVM isn't directed at it cause its on one of the 
others.. I've never understood why X has to actually connect to the 
monitor to be correct, but X is pretty near a black box as far as I am 
concerned (sigh).

Thanks in advance,
Paul

Thanks,
Paul

[Eric Tanguy]

Le 27/12/2009 09:42, Paul Allen Newell a écrit :
> To all:
>
> Installed f12 without any problems.
>
> Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I could 
> edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
>
> Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> cliché again, "not groovy".
>
> I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours between 
> friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper (which may be 
> not documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to kick the X.
>
> I have three computer on a KVM and I often need to kick one of them if 
> it boots up and the KVM isn't directed at it cause its on one of the 
> others.. I've never understood why X has to actually connect to the 
> monitor to be correct, but X is pretty near a black box as far as I am 
> concerned (sigh).
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Paul
>
> Thanks,
> Paul

In gnome, go to system, preferences, keyboard, after that i don't know 
the exact translation in english.
So go to the 2nd tab,  at the bottom right you find something like 
"options ..." and you find key sequence to kill the  server ...

Eric

[Karl-Olov Serrander]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009, Eric Tanguy wrote:
> Le 27/12/2009 09:42, Paul Allen Newell a écrit :
> > ...
> > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours between 
> > friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper (which may be not 
> > documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to kick the X.
> > ...
>
> In gnome, go to system, preferences, keyboard, after that i don't know the 
> exact translation in english.
> So go to the 2nd tab,  at the bottom right you find something like "options 
> ..." and you find key sequence to kill the  server ...
>
> Eric

How to set this systemwide ?

Regards

[Paul Allen Newell]

Eric Tanguy wrote:
> Le 27/12/2009 09:42, Paul Allen Newell a écrit :
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I 
> > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> >
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
> >
> > Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> > icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> > cliché again, "not groovy".
> >
> > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours 
> > between friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper 
> > (which may be not documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to 
> > kick the X.
> >
> > I have three computer on a KVM and I often need to kick one of them 
> > if it boots up and the KVM isn't directed at it cause its on one of 
> > the others.. I've never understood why X has to actually connect to 
> > the monitor to be correct, but X is pretty near a black box as far as 
> > I am concerned (sigh).
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Paul
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Paul
>
> In gnome, go to system, preferences, keyboard, after that i don't know 
> the exact translation in english.
> So go to the 2nd tab,  at the bottom right you find something like 
> "options ..." and you find key sequence to kill the  server ...
>
> Eric

Eric:

Thank you for reply, later email from Kevin Fenzi had like to website to 
show this as well. Once I've reinstalled f12, will give it a try.

Paul

[François Patte]

Paul Allen Newell  a écrit :
> To all:
>
> Installed f12 without any problems.
>
> Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I  
> could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install  
> system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the  
> default that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the  
> cliché, "groovy"
>
> Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora  
> icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use  
> the cliché again, "not groovy".
>
> I figure I have no choice but to reinstall

Why don't edit grub "boot line" to switch to level 3 and see what  
happens using startx? Then examine the log files Xorg.0.log*

--
François Patte
UFR de mathématiques et informatique
Université Paris Descartes
45, rue des Saints Pères
F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
Tél. [phone]
http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

[Paul Allen Newell]

François Patte wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell  a écrit :
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I 
> > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> >
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
> >
> > Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> > icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> > cliché again, "not groovy".
> >
> > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall
>
> Why don't edit grub "boot line" to switch to level 3 and see what 
> happens using startx? Then examine the log files Xorg.0.log*
>
> -- 
> François Patte
> UFR de mathématiques et informatique
> Université Paris Descartes
> 45, rue des Saints Pères
> F-75270 Paris Cedex 06
> Tél. [phone]
> http://www.math-info.univ-paris5.fr/~patte
>
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

François:

Thanks for the reply. Given the "here it is" replies from Eric and 
Kevin, I'm going to take the easy route and use that rather than get 
myself into more trouble with Xorg.

Paul

[Robert McBroom]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> François Patte wrote:
> > Paul Allen Newell  a écrit :
> > > To all:
> > >
> > > Installed f12 without any problems.
> > >
> > > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I 
> > > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> > >
> > > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
> > >
> > > Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> > > icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> > > cliché again, "not groovy".
> > >
> > > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall
> >
> > Why don't edit grub "boot line" to switch to level 3 and see what 
> > happens using startx? Then examine the log files Xorg.0.log*
> > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
> François:
>
> Thanks for the reply. Given the "here it is" replies from Eric and 
> Kevin, I'm going to take the easy route and use that rather than get 
> myself into more trouble with Xorg.
>
> Paul

If you use the advice from François you can make the other changes by using
su - to get to root without having to reinstall.  In textmode you have
control over your system that the graphical boot takes away from you. 
Besides on all the systems I've tried so far it is much faster to login and
type startx than is tis to wait for all the graphics.

Robert McBroom

[Paul Allen Newell]

TNWestTex wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > François Patte wrote:
> > > Paul Allen Newell  a écrit :
> > > > To all:
> > > >
> > > > Installed f12 without any problems.
> > > >
> > > > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I 
> > > > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> > > >
> > > > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > > > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > > > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
> > > >
> > > > Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> > > > icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> > > > cliché again, "not groovy".
> > > >
> > > > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall
> > >
> > > Why don't edit grub "boot line" to switch to level 3 and see what 
> > > happens using startx? Then examine the log files Xorg.0.log*
> > >
> > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> >
> > François:
> >
> > Thanks for the reply. Given the "here it is" replies from Eric and 
> > Kevin, I'm going to take the easy route and use that rather than get 
> > myself into more trouble with Xorg.
> >
> > Paul
>
> If you use the advice from François you can make the other changes by using
> su - to get to root without having to reinstall.  In textmode you have
> control over your system that the graphical boot takes away from you. 
> Besides on all the systems I've tried so far it is much faster to login and
> type startx than is tis to wait for all the graphics.
>
> Robert McBroom

Robert:

Though I certainly agree with the benefits you describe, I have to admit 
that I don't feel secure enough in my skills to venture into such. Just 
trying to run vanilla quite often gets me into trouble. That being said, 
fedora / red hat / linux is one heck of alot easier than Windows as far 
as I am concerned.

Once I have a stable f12 install, I'll read man page / web to learn more 
about startx as your advice indicates it is probably something I could 
find useful.

Thanks for the email,
Paul

[Craig White]

On Sun, 2009-12-27 at 00:42 -0800, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> To all:
>
> Installed f12 without any problems.
>
> Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I could 
> edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
>
> Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> cliché again, "not groovy".
>
> I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours between 
> friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper (which may be 
> not documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to kick the X.
>
> I have three computer on a KVM and I often need to kick one of them if 
> it boots up and the KVM isn't directed at it cause its on one of the 
> others.. I've never understood why X has to actually connect to the 
> monitor to be correct, but X is pretty near a black box as far as I am 
> concerned (sigh).

----
put into /etc/X11/xorg.conf

Section "ServerFlags"
        Option          "DontZap" "false"      
EndSection

then you can kill X with <Control><Alt><Backspace> as before (after you
restart X of course.

Craig

[Paul Allen Newell]

Craig White wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-12-27 at 00:42 -0800, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I could 
> > edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> >
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché, "groovy"
> >
> > Reboot system and it immediately hangs after that cute little Fedora 
> > icon finishes to say that it booted. Just hangs and hangs. To use the 
> > cliché again, "not groovy".
> >
> > I figure I have no choice but to reinstall (what's a few hours between 
> > friends (grumble)) ... but would like to know the proper (which may be 
> > not documented) way to restore "crtl-alt-backspace" to kick the X.
> >
> > I have three computer on a KVM and I often need to kick one of them if 
> > it boots up and the KVM isn't directed at it cause its on one of the 
> > others.. I've never understood why X has to actually connect to the 
> > monitor to be correct, but X is pretty near a black box as far as I am 
> > concerned (sigh).
>
> put into /etc/X11/xorg.conf
>
> Section "ServerFlags"
>         Option          "DontZap" "false"      
> EndSection
>
> then you can kill X with <Control><Alt><Backspace> as before (after you
> restart X of course.
>
> Craig

Craig:

The plan originally was to use the DontZap once I proved that using 
system-config-display to create Xorg would work. Never made it far 
enough and, given the posting from Eric and especially Kevin, I think I 
am better off with a reinstall and using the Keyboard Layout.

Thanks for the reply,
Paul

[Kevin Fenzi]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> To all:
>
> Installed f12 without any problems.
>
> Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.

How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)
> Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> "groovy"

Don't do that. See:

http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...

(with screenshots even! :)

There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
can cause problems moving forward.

kevin

[Paul Allen Newell]

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
> Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)

Of course (smile)
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install 
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default 
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> > "groovy"
>
> Don't do that. See:
>
> http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
>
> (with screenshots even! :)
>
> There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> can cause problems moving forward.
>
> kevin

Kevin:

Many thanks for the link (gotta love when screen-shots are included!). 
When I went hunting on the web, I got stuck on the system-config-display 
thread which gives me an Xorg to put in DontZap info. I think I ended up 
on an F11 thread instead of an F12 as a look afterword shows me that my 
searches were Fedoraguide.info ... bad on my part for remembering prior 
forum discusssions about DontZap and jumping to wrong conclusion.

I wish my Goggling had hit this article first and/or instead ... another 
lesson learned by hitting thumb with hammer instead of hitting nail.

I am quite happy to not mess with Xorg, I remember it making my life 
miserable on fc5 and I wasn't exactly looking forward to having to mess 
with it again.

Once again, my thanks ... now I just have to reinstall to try it out,
Paul

another question on "Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace"

[Paul Allen Newell]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > Don't do that. See:
> > http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
> >
> > (with screenshots even! :)
> > There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> > can cause problems moving forward.
> > kevin

Kevin or anyone who has a suggestion:

I tried the suggestion in the link you provided and it works ... as 
advertised (???). If I have logged in, enabling that setting does mean 
that crtl+alt+backspace will restart X and put me back at the login screen.

But it doesn't help in the one situation that I usually want to restart 
X. I turn on a machine but the KVM is pointing to another machine. When 
I am ready to use the machine that I have just powered up, the screen 
size settings are wonked and I want to crtl+alt+backspace to restart and 
get the screen size correct. In this case, it doesn't work.

From what I can figure out, there is some part of the boot process that 
polls the monitor and, if it the KVM has it pointing elsewhere, it makes 
"worst-case default assumptions" since it doesn't see the monitor.

I am now assuming that the setting that I have made via the link's 
suggestion works once a login has occurred and all shell stuff has been 
resolved.

Is there a way to enable the key combination to work prior to logging 
in? I am certainly happier that I can at least login, kick it, and get 
settings back ... but that seems "wrong" since I don't think I really 
should be restarting X once logged in.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

ps: I am also looking into all the other suggestions made in this thread 
to see if I prefer any of the others, but figured I'd at least ask about 
this "almost what I want" solution.

another question on "Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace"

[Robert Moskowitz]

More butting in...

On 01/04/2010 10:32 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > > Don't do that. See:
> > > http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
> > >
> > > (with screenshots even! :)
> > > There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> > > can cause problems moving forward.
> > > kevin
>
> Kevin or anyone who has a suggestion:
>
> I tried the suggestion in the link you provided and it works ... as 
> advertised (???). If I have logged in, enabling that setting does mean 
> that crtl+alt+backspace will restart X and put me back at the login 
> screen.
>
> But it doesn't help in the one situation that I usually want to 
> restart X. I turn on a machine but the KVM is pointing to another 
> machine. When I am ready to use the machine that I have just powered 
> up, the screen size settings are wonked and I want to 
> crtl+alt+backspace to restart and get the screen size correct. In this 
> case, it doesn't work.
>
> From what I can figure out, there is some part of the boot process 
> that polls the monitor and, if it the KVM has it pointing elsewhere, 
> it makes "worst-case default assumptions" since it doesn't see the 
> monitor.

I have my KVM on my notebook at boot time, and still only get 800x600. 
So there is more wrong here than this.
> I am now assuming that the setting that I have made via the link's 
> suggestion works once a login has occurred and all shell stuff has 
> been resolved.
>
> Is there a way to enable the key combination to work prior to logging 
> in? I am certainly happier that I can at least login, kick it, and get 
> settings back ... but that seems "wrong" since I don't think I really 
> should be restarting X once logged in.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Paul
>
> ps: I am also looking into all the other suggestions made in this 
> thread to see if I prefer any of the others, but figured I'd at least 
> ask about this "almost what I want" solution.

[Suvayu Ali]

On Sunday 27 December 2009 11:06 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
> Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> > "groovy"
>
> Don't do that. See:
>
> http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
>
> (with screenshots even! :)
>
> There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> can cause problems moving forward.
>
> kevin

If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to 
have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,

setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp

;)

[Paul Allen Newell]

Suvayu Ali wrote:
> On Sunday 27 December 2009 11:06 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
> > Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > > To all:
> > >
> > > Installed f12 without any problems.
> > >
> > > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> > > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> >
> > How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)
> > > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install
> > > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default
> > > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> > > "groovy"
> >
> > Don't do that. See:
> >
> > http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
> >
> > (with screenshots even! :)
> >
> > There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> > can cause problems moving forward.
> >
> > kevin
>
> If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to 
> have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,
>
> setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
>
> ;)

Suvayu:

Thanks, this is interesting. So it is in .bash_profile and not .bashrc? 
Is there a similar way to do in either cshrc or, preferably, tcshrc?

Paul

[Tim]

On Sun, 2009-12-27 at 22:52 -0800, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> So it is in .bash_profile and not .bashrc?

Abbreviating down to the salient comments,
~/.bash_profile says:
# User specific environment and startup programs

~/.bashrc says:
# User specific aliases and functions

[Tim]

On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 17:58 +1030, Tim wrote:
> Abbreviating down to the salient comments,
> ~/.bash_profile says:
> # User specific environment and startup programs
>
> ~/.bashrc says:
> # User specific aliases and functions

NB:  I should add that's the textbook situation.  When it comes to
practice, there may be a need to bend the rules.  I don't know how well
you can rely on things always working in the expected manner.

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi Paul,

On Sunday 27 December 2009 10:52 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to
> > have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,
> >
> > setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
> >
> > ;)
>
> Suvayu:
>
> Thanks, this is interesting. So it is in .bash_profile and not .bashrc?
> Is there a similar way to do in either cshrc or, preferably, tcshrc?

~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment 
when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does this. (I 
don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).

~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell, maybe by 
opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.

This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile & ~/.bashrc 
gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like 
gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.

So ideally, (As Tim said in a later post) your environment variables 
should be defined in your ~/.bash_profile where as your aliases and 
functions should be defined in ~/.bashrc.

What I say is true assuming your login shell is bash. Since you asked 
about csh or tcsh, as far as I understood from a quick look at the 
respective manpages (section: startup and shutdown) they behave 
differently. There is no file corresponding to ~/.bash_profile for 
either of them. (maybe this is how C-shells behave?) However ~/.tcshrc 
or ~/.cshrc does get sourced (in that order). So you can define this in 
one of those files and see whether this works.
> Paul

GL

[Aaron Konstam]

On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On Sunday 27 December 2009 10:52 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to
> > > have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,
> > >
> > > setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
> > >
> > > ;)
> >
> > Suvayu:
> >
> > Thanks, this is interesting. So it is in .bash_profile and not .bashrc?
> > Is there a similar way to do in either cshrc or, preferably, tcshrc?
>
> ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment 
> when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does this. (I 
> don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
>
> ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell, maybe by 
> opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
>
> This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile & ~/.bashrc 
> gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like 
> gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.

It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program is run
in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
> So ideally, (As Tim said in a later post) your environment variables 
> should be defined in your ~/.bash_profile where as your aliases and 
> functions should be defined in ~/.bashrc.
>
> What I say is true assuming your login shell is bash. Since you asked 
> about csh or tcsh, as far as I understood from a quick look at the 
> respective manpages (section: startup and shutdown) they behave 
> differently. There is no file corresponding to ~/.bash_profile for 
> either of them. (maybe this is how C-shells behave?) However ~/.tcshrc 
> or ~/.cshrc does get sourced (in that order). So you can define this in 
> one of those files and see whether this works.
> > Paul
> GL
>
> Suvayu
>
> Open source is the future. It sets us free.

--
=======================================================================
The problem with any unwritten law is that you don't know where to go to
erase it. -- Glaser and Way
=======================================================================
Aaron Konstam telephone: [phone] e-mail: [e-mail]

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi Aaron,

On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment
> > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does this. (I
> > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> >
> > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell, maybe by
> > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> >
> > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile&  ~/.bashrc
> > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
>
> It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program is run
> in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.

By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is exactly 
what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you run 
something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe Alt-F2 then 
~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables defined there 
won't be available to you. If you want something like that, you need to 
define it in your ~/.bash_profile.

Hope this makes my point clearer. :)

[Paul Allen Newell]

Suvayu Ali wrote:
> Hi Aaron,
>
> On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment
> > > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does 
> > > this. (I
> > > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> > >
> > > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell, 
> > > maybe by
> > > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> > >
> > > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile&  ~/.bashrc
> > > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
> >
> > It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program is run
> > in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
>
> By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is 
> exactly what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you 
> run something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe Alt-F2 
> then ~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables defined 
> there won't be available to you. If you want something like that, you 
> need to define it in your ~/.bash_profile.
>
> Hope this makes my point clearer. :)

Naive question .... it sounds like if a user has selected bash as 
shell-of-choice, then bash_profile is there for any operation (terminal 
or not) that would involve the use of the shell? I might not be saying 
this right, but I am trying to understand just how global bash_profile 
is and, if not, why it isn't as it seems by your email that for all 
intents and purposes it is global to a user's login process.

Thanks for bearing with the question given that you already know I am 
running tcsh and therefore this is a learning exercise as opposed to a 
real occurrence in my usage of fedora.

Paul

[Ed Greshko]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > Hi Aaron,
> >
> > On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment
> > > > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does
> > > > this. (I
> > > > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> > > >
> > > > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell,
> > > > maybe by
> > > > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> > > >
> > > > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile& 
> > > > ~/.bashrc
> > > > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > > > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
> > >
> > > It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program is run
> > > in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
> >
> > By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is
> > exactly what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you
> > run something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe
> > Alt-F2 then ~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables
> > defined there won't be available to you. If you want something like
> > that, you need to define it in your ~/.bash_profile.
> >
> > Hope this makes my point clearer. :)
>
> Naive question .... it sounds like if a user has selected bash as
> shell-of-choice, then bash_profile is there for any operation
> (terminal or not) that would involve the use of the shell? I might not
> be saying this right, but I am trying to understand just how global
> bash_profile is and, if not, why it isn't as it seems by your email
> that for all intents and purposes it is global to a user's login process.
>
> Thanks for bearing with the question given that you already know I am
> running tcsh and therefore this is a learning exercise as opposed to a
> real occurrence in my usage of fedora.
>
> Paul

Why not just read "man bash"?

[Paul Allen Newell]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > Hi Aaron,
> > >
> > > On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment
> > > > > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does
> > > > > this. (I
> > > > > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> > > > >
> > > > > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell,
> > > > > maybe by
> > > > > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> > > > >
> > > > > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile& 
> > > > > ~/.bashrc
> > > > > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > > > > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
> > > >
> > > > It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program is run
> > > > in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
> > >
> > > By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is
> > > exactly what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you
> > > run something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe
> > > Alt-F2 then ~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables
> > > defined there won't be available to you. If you want something like
> > > that, you need to define it in your ~/.bash_profile.
> > >
> > > Hope this makes my point clearer. :)
> >
> > Naive question .... it sounds like if a user has selected bash as
> > shell-of-choice, then bash_profile is there for any operation
> > (terminal or not) that would involve the use of the shell? I might not
> > be saying this right, but I am trying to understand just how global
> > bash_profile is and, if not, why it isn't as it seems by your email
> > that for all intents and purposes it is global to a user's login process.
> >
> > Thanks for bearing with the question given that you already know I am
> > running tcsh and therefore this is a learning exercise as opposed to a
> > real occurrence in my usage of fedora.
> >
> > Paul
>
> Why not just read "man bash"?

Because bring up the "man bash" pages and searching for "profile" gives 
me info about what happens with a shell or a non-interactive --login 
shell and doesn't give me any meta information that either answers my 
question or makes it clear that I am asking the wrong question.

http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/bashref.html

One of the reasons to watch/read this forum is to get answers to 
questions that man pages don't supply. In my experience, if you want to 
know exactly how to do something with a given command/whatever, they are 
great. If you want to get an understanding of the overall picture of the 
command/whatever, they aren't very good as they assume you have already 
commit to "this is what I am using so how do I do this particular 
operation".

To ask what is the scope of ".bash_profile" outside of sourcing order in 
particular occurrences, I don't see it in the man pages.

I am more than happy to be told that I am totally incorrect in my 
interpretation of this.

Thanks (and that includes making me double-check the man pages to prove 
to myself that I am not seeing the answer I am looking for!),
Paul

[Ed Greshko]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
> > Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > > Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > >
> > > > On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > > > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop
> > > > > > environment
> > > > > > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does
> > > > > > this. (I
> > > > > > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell,
> > > > > > maybe by
> > > > > > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile&
> > > > > > ~/.bashrc
> > > > > > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > > > > > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program
> > > > > is run
> > > > > in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
> > > >
> > > > By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is
> > > > exactly what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you
> > > > run something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe
> > > > Alt-F2 then ~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables
> > > > defined there won't be available to you. If you want something like
> > > > that, you need to define it in your ~/.bash_profile.
> > > >
> > > > Hope this makes my point clearer. :)
> > >
> > > Naive question .... it sounds like if a user has selected bash as
> > > shell-of-choice, then bash_profile is there for any operation
> > > (terminal or not) that would involve the use of the shell? I might not
> > > be saying this right, but I am trying to understand just how global
> > > bash_profile is and, if not, why it isn't as it seems by your email
> > > that for all intents and purposes it is global to a user's login
> > > process.
> > >
> > > Thanks for bearing with the question given that you already know I am
> > > running tcsh and therefore this is a learning exercise as opposed to a
> > > real occurrence in my usage of fedora.
> > >
> > > Paul
> >
> > Why not just read "man bash"?
>
> Because bring up the "man bash" pages and searching for "profile"
> gives me info about what happens with a shell or a non-interactive
> --login shell and doesn't give me any meta information that either
> answers my question or makes it clear that I am asking the wrong
> question.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/bashref.html
>
> One of the reasons to watch/read this forum is to get answers to
> questions that man pages don't supply. In my experience, if you want
> to know exactly how to do something with a given command/whatever,
> they are great. If you want to get an understanding of the overall
> picture of the command/whatever, they aren't very good as they assume
> you have already commit to "this is what I am using so how do I do
> this particular operation".
>
> To ask what is the scope of ".bash_profile" outside of sourcing order
> in particular occurrences, I don't see it in the man pages.
>
> I am more than happy to be told that I am totally incorrect in my
> interpretation of this.
>
> Thanks (and that includes making me double-check the man pages to
> prove to myself that I am not seeing the answer I am looking for!),
> Paul

I suppose I don't understand your question or what makes you think the
man page doesn't answer it.....

The man page tells you under what conditions the various files
(/etc/profile, ~/.bash_profile ~/.bash_login etc) are read depending on
what type of shell (interactive, login).

Are you saying there is a situation not covered?

Remember, everything that is executed is executed under a shell.

[Paul Allen Newell]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Ed Greshko wrote:
> > > Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > > > Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > > Hi Aaron,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Monday 28 December 2009 02:11 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, 2009-12-28 at 03:04 -0800, Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop
> > > > > > > environment
> > > > > > > when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does
> > > > > > > this. (I
> > > > > > > don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell,
> > > > > > > maybe by
> > > > > > > opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile&
> > > > > > > ~/.bashrc
> > > > > > > gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like
> > > > > > > gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
> > > > > > >           
> > > > > > >               
> > > > > > It is my impression that.bashrc is souurced whenever any program
> > > > > > is run
> > > > > > in a bash environment. I am willing to be corrected.
> > > > >
> > > > > By bash environment if you mean a terminal emulator then that is
> > > > > exactly what I meant in my previous post. However if for example you
> > > > > run something using a menu or shortcut on your desktop or maybe
> > > > > Alt-F2 then ~/.bashrc is _not_ sourced, and environment variables
> > > > > defined there won't be available to you. If you want something like
> > > > > that, you need to define it in your ~/.bash_profile.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this makes my point clearer. :)
> > > >
> > > > Naive question .... it sounds like if a user has selected bash as
> > > > shell-of-choice, then bash_profile is there for any operation
> > > > (terminal or not) that would involve the use of the shell? I might not
> > > > be saying this right, but I am trying to understand just how global
> > > > bash_profile is and, if not, why it isn't as it seems by your email
> > > > that for all intents and purposes it is global to a user's login
> > > > process.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for bearing with the question given that you already know I am
> > > > running tcsh and therefore this is a learning exercise as opposed to a
> > > > real occurrence in my usage of fedora.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > >
> > > Why not just read "man bash"?
> >
> > Because bring up the "man bash" pages and searching for "profile"
> > gives me info about what happens with a shell or a non-interactive
> > --login shell and doesn't give me any meta information that either
> > answers my question or makes it clear that I am asking the wrong
> > question.
> >
> > http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/bashref.html
> >
> > One of the reasons to watch/read this forum is to get answers to
> > questions that man pages don't supply. In my experience, if you want
> > to know exactly how to do something with a given command/whatever,
> > they are great. If you want to get an understanding of the overall
> > picture of the command/whatever, they aren't very good as they assume
> > you have already commit to "this is what I am using so how do I do
> > this particular operation".
> >
> > To ask what is the scope of ".bash_profile" outside of sourcing order
> > in particular occurrences, I don't see it in the man pages.
> >
> > I am more than happy to be told that I am totally incorrect in my
> > interpretation of this.
> >
> > Thanks (and that includes making me double-check the man pages to
> > prove to myself that I am not seeing the answer I am looking for!),
> > Paul
>
> I suppose I don't understand your question or what makes you think the
> man page doesn't answer it.....
>
> The man page tells you under what conditions the various files
> (/etc/profile, ~/.bash_profile ~/.bash_login etc) are read depending on
> what type of shell (interactive, login).
>
> Are you saying there is a situation not covered?
>
> Remember, everything that is executed is executed under a shell.

Ed,

Thanks for bearing with me on this.

I think part of my confusion is that I am not understanding whether a 
login shell covers everything that is done once I have logged in via 
splash screen or if it is confined to "logining into a shell". If the 
former, then I would assume bash_profiles is hit once and everything 
done thereafter would be under its command. If the latter, then I am 
probably unclear about whether launching a terminal is a "login" act 
(hence under bash_profile only within that shell).

As I said on my initial reply to this thread, "Naive question". I may be 
missing a fundamental understanding of shells and logins and all that 
sort of stuff.

Paul

[Ed Greshko]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> I think part of my confusion is that I am not understanding whether a
> login shell covers everything that is done once I have logged in via
> splash screen or if it is confined to "logining into a shell". If the
> former, then I would assume bash_profiles is hit once and everything
> done thereafter would be under its command. If the latter, then I am
> probably unclear about whether launching a terminal is a "login" act
> (hence under bash_profile only within that shell).
>
> As I said on my initial reply to this thread, "Naive question". I may
> be missing a fundamental understanding of shells and logins and all
> that sort of stuff.

A login shell is what it says it is.  A shell created as a consequence
of logging in.  That could be a console login in run level 3, the GUI
login screen in run level 5, an ssh login from a remote system, etc. 
Starting, for example, "gnome-terminal", does not constitute a login shell.

One thing you can do to learn when .bashrc and .bash_profile are sourced
is to add something like....

touch /tmp/bashrc.time   to the end of your .bashrc file and a similar
line to your .bash_profile.  Then you can
"ls -l --time-style=full-iso"  (to display the seconds).

I also think you may want to learn about PID's and PPID's  (Process ID,
and Parent Process ID).

[Ed Greshko]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > I think part of my confusion is that I am not understanding whether a
> > login shell covers everything that is done once I have logged in via
> > splash screen or if it is confined to "logining into a shell". If the
> > former, then I would assume bash_profiles is hit once and everything
> > done thereafter would be under its command. If the latter, then I am
> > probably unclear about whether launching a terminal is a "login" act
> > (hence under bash_profile only within that shell).
> >
> > As I said on my initial reply to this thread, "Naive question". I may
> > be missing a fundamental understanding of shells and logins and all
> > that sort of stuff.
>
> A login shell is what it says it is.  A shell created as a consequence
> of logging in.  That could be a console login in run level 3, the GUI
> login screen in run level 5, an ssh login from a remote system, etc. 
> Starting, for example, "gnome-terminal", does not constitute a login shell.

I also forgot to mention the "-i and -l" parameters on the #!/bin/bash
line of a shell script that would also affect the type of shell.
> One thing you can do to learn when .bashrc and .bash_profile are sourced
> is to add something like....
>
> touch /tmp/bashrc.time   to the end of your .bashrc file and a similar
> line to your .bash_profile.  Then you can
> "ls -l --time-style=full-iso"  (to display the seconds).
>
> I also think you may want to learn about PID's and PPID's  (Process ID,
> and Parent Process ID).

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi Paul,

On Monday 28 December 2009 09:21 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
> > The man page tells you under what conditions the various files
> > (/etc/profile, ~/.bash_profile ~/.bash_login etc) are read depending on
> > what type of shell (interactive, login).
> > Are you saying there is a situation not covered?
> >
> > Remember, everything that is executed is executed under a shell.
>
> I think part of my confusion is that I am not understanding whether a
> login shell covers everything that is done once I have logged in via
> splash screen or if it is confined to "logining into a shell". If the
> former, then I would assume bash_profiles is hit once and everything
> done thereafter would be under its command. If the latter, then I am
> probably unclear about whether launching a terminal is a "login" act
> (hence under bash_profile only within that shell).

I think a small experiment is in order. Open up any terminal emulator of 
your choice, go fullscreen (well just stretching it to be really big 
should be enough for the experiment ;) )

Now run the following,

$ ps uf -u `whoami`

The output might be a little truncated on the right depending on the 
size of your monitor, but that is not too important. As you can see, the 
command to start your desktop is initiated by a shell. So if you setup 
your environment variables appropriately, then all those should be 
available to the shell starting your desktop. This allows you to have a 
consistent environment for your applications no matter how you launch 
them, from a terminal or from the gui of your desktop.

The lesson to learn here are the differences between shells/apps 
inheriting the environment of its parent shell/process depending on how 
you set the environment.

If you are interested, you can try another small experiment to see for 
yourself what I mean. Try putting this in your ~/.bash_profile,

export PATH=$PATH:${HOME}/bin

And then put a symbolic link to some small application of your choice in 
your ${HOME}/bin.

For example I did this, (I chose thunar as I use XFCE)

$ ln -s -T `which thunar` ${HOME}/bin/fakethunar

Now logout and log back in. Try running `fakethunar' with the Alt-F2 
dialogue. It will open up thunar. Now comment out those lines, logout, 
login again and repeat that. You will get an error message. You can do 
many different variations of this to explore some more subtleties. But I 
think this paints a clearer picture now. :)
> Paul

Have fun hacking.

PS: This kind of info is usually in the FILES or INVOCATION section of 
the man pages.

[Paul Allen Newell]

Suvayu and Ed:

Thanks for these replies. Points taken as they help me see the 
weaknesses in my understanding. So, yeah, I got hacking / homework ahead 
... and seeing if I can figure out enough to feel comfortable learning / 
switch to bash from tcsh.

Paul

Suvayu Ali wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On Monday 28 December 2009 09:21 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Ed Greshko wrote:
> > > The man page tells you under what conditions the various files
> > > (/etc/profile, ~/.bash_profile ~/.bash_login etc) are read depending on
> > > what type of shell (interactive, login).
> > > Are you saying there is a situation not covered?
> > >
> > > Remember, everything that is executed is executed under a shell.
> >
> > I think part of my confusion is that I am not understanding whether a
> > login shell covers everything that is done once I have logged in via
> > splash screen or if it is confined to "logining into a shell". If the
> > former, then I would assume bash_profiles is hit once and everything
> > done thereafter would be under its command. If the latter, then I am
> > probably unclear about whether launching a terminal is a "login" act
> > (hence under bash_profile only within that shell).
>
> I think a small experiment is in order. Open up any terminal emulator 
> of your choice, go fullscreen (well just stretching it to be really 
> big should be enough for the experiment ;) )
>
> Now run the following,
>
> $ ps uf -u `whoami`
>
> The output might be a little truncated on the right depending on the 
> size of your monitor, but that is not too important. As you can see, 
> the command to start your desktop is initiated by a shell. So if you 
> setup your environment variables appropriately, then all those should 
> be available to the shell starting your desktop. This allows you to 
> have a consistent environment for your applications no matter how you 
> launch them, from a terminal or from the gui of your desktop.
>
> The lesson to learn here are the differences between shells/apps 
> inheriting the environment of its parent shell/process depending on 
> how you set the environment.
>
> If you are interested, you can try another small experiment to see for 
> yourself what I mean. Try putting this in your ~/.bash_profile,
>
> export PATH=$PATH:${HOME}/bin
>
> And then put a symbolic link to some small application of your choice 
> in your ${HOME}/bin.
>
> For example I did this, (I chose thunar as I use XFCE)
>
> $ ln -s -T `which thunar` ${HOME}/bin/fakethunar
>
> Now logout and log back in. Try running `fakethunar' with the Alt-F2 
> dialogue. It will open up thunar. Now comment out those lines, logout, 
> login again and repeat that. You will get an error message. You can do 
> many different variations of this to explore some more subtleties. But 
> I think this paints a clearer picture now. :)
> > Paul
>
> Have fun hacking.
>
> PS: This kind of info is usually in the FILES or INVOCATION section of 
> the man pages.

[Paul Allen Newell]

Suvayu and Tim:

A very good explanation of the differences and what to expect from each.

Suvayu is correct in understanding my emails that I am running tcsh as 
that is the shell I am most familiar with thanks to work environments. 
Given the info that I have gotten here, I will take a stab at finding 
out from our sysAdmins whether there is anything similar in tcsh. You 
can probably tell that, being a tcsh user, the concept of a "_profile" 
is a new one to me ... more learning on my part is in order now that 
you've pointed me in right direction.

Thanks,
Paul

Suvayu Ali wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On Sunday 27 December 2009 10:52 PM, Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > > If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to
> > > have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,
> > >
> > > setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
> > >
> > > ;)
> >
> > Suvayu:
> >
> > Thanks, this is interesting. So it is in .bash_profile and not .bashrc?
> > Is there a similar way to do in either cshrc or, preferably, tcshrc?
>
> ~/.bash_profile gets sourced by any "well behaved" desktop environment 
> when ever you login. In my experience XFCE and WindowMaker does this. 
> (I don't use Gnome/KDE as often, so can't comment on them).
>
> ~/.bashrc gets sourced when ever you open an interactive shell, maybe 
> by opening a terminal emulator or login in remotely.
>
> This means whenever you login remotely both ~/.bash_profile & 
> ~/.bashrc gets sourced. However if you open a terminal emulator like 
> gnome-terminal or xterm only your ~/.bashrc gets sourced.
>
> So ideally, (As Tim said in a later post) your environment variables 
> should be defined in your ~/.bash_profile where as your aliases and 
> functions should be defined in ~/.bashrc.
>
> What I say is true assuming your login shell is bash. Since you asked 
> about csh or tcsh, as far as I understood from a quick look at the 
> respective manpages (section: startup and shutdown) they behave 
> differently. There is no file corresponding to ~/.bash_profile for 
> either of them. (maybe this is how C-shells behave?) However ~/.tcshrc 
> or ~/.cshrc does get sourced (in that order). So you can define this 
> in one of those files and see whether this works.
> > Paul
>
> GL

[Ed Greshko]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Suvayu Ali wrote:
> > On Sunday 27 December 2009 11:06 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> > > On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
> > > Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > > > To all:
> > > >
> > > > Installed f12 without any problems.
> > > >
> > > > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> > > > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
> > >
> > > How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)
> > > > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install
> > > > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default
> > > > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> > > > "groovy"
> > >
> > > Don't do that. See:
> > >
> > > http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
> > >
> > > (with screenshots even! :)
> > >
> > > There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> > > can cause problems moving forward.
> > >
> > > kevin
> >
> > If the OP is interested, the command line way to do this would be to
> > have one of your login scripts like ~/.bash_profile say,
> >
> > setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp
> >
> > ;)
>
> Suvayu:
>
> Thanks, this is interesting. So it is in .bash_profile and not
> .bashrc? Is there a similar way to do in either cshrc or, preferably,
> tcshrc?

At this point it would be helpful to read "man bash" and "man tcsh"
which will answer your questions about when the various ~/. files are read.

[Robert Moskowitz]

Putting my problem into this thread...

On 12/27/2009 02:06 PM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 00:42:19 -0800
> Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > To all:
> >
> > Installed f12 without any problems.
> >
> > Discovered that crtl-alt-backspace was disabled in f12 and how I
> > could edit my xorg.conf to restore that feature.
>
> How did you discover this? Trying it in a gnome desktop? :)
> > Searched Fedora f12 web pages and they told me to install
> > system-config-display to create an xorg.conf that matched the default
> > that the opSys was using. Worked great and, to use the cliché,
> > "groovy"
>
> Don't do that. See:
>
> http://ryanler.wordpress.com/2009/06/11/controlaltbackspace-shortcut-does-no...
>
> (with screenshots even! :)
>
> There is no need at all to make an xorg.conf, and as you have seen it
> can cause problems moving forward.

And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal 
display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to get 
higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more 
without the xorg.conf?

BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always 
run it at 1024x768.

[Ed Greshko]

Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal
> display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to
> get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more
> without the xorg.conf?
>
> BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always
> run it at 1024x768.

When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
"Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
notebook)" fix my issue.

[Paul Allen Newell]

Ed Greshko wrote:
> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal
> > display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to
> > get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more
> > without the xorg.conf?
> >
> > BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always
> > run it at 1024x768.
>
> When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
> Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
> "Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
> notebook)" fix my issue.

Ed:

But doesn't the execution of system-config-display generate an 
xorg.conf, which is what I know I am trying to avoid (and I think Robert 
from his additions)? I scanned the web and didn't spot anything implying 
the contrary, but I admit my web searching skills have been lacking on 
the past couple times I've tried to find thing.

Paul

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Tuesday 05 January 2010 05:00:02 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Ed Greshko wrote:
> > Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal
> > > display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to
> > > get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more
> > > without the xorg.conf?
> > >
> > > BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always
> > > run it at 1024x768.
> >
> > When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
> > Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
> > "Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
> > notebook)" fix my issue.
>
> But doesn't the execution of system-config-display generate an
> xorg.conf, which is what I know I am trying to avoid (and I think Robert
> from his additions)?

Sorry to jump in this thread, but have you tried to use xrandr to set up the 
resolution you want? That way you don't need to generate xorg.conf, and can 
convince X to give you any resolution you want (if supported by hardware).

HTH, :-)
Marko

Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/05/2010 05:39 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 January 2010 05:00:02 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Ed Greshko wrote:
> > > Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > > > And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal
> > > > display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to
> > > > get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more
> > > > without the xorg.conf?
> > > >
> > > > BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always
> > > > run it at 1024x768.
> > >
> > > When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
> > > Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
> > > "Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
> > > notebook)" fix my issue.
> >
> > But doesn't the execution of system-config-display generate an
> > xorg.conf, which is what I know I am trying to avoid (and I think Robert
> > from his additions)?
>
> Sorry to jump in this thread, but have you tried to use xrandr to set up the
> resolution you want? That way you don't need to generate xorg.conf, and can
> convince X to give you any resolution you want (if supported by hardware).

OK. So I have seen this mention of xandr before so I did a man on it. 
Here is what I see from just xandr and with the xorg.conf:

Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1024 x 768, maximum 4096 x 4096
LVDS1 connected 1024x768+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 
261mm x 163mm
1024x768 60.0*+
1280x800 59.8 +
800x600 60.3 56.2
640x480 59.9
VGA1 connected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
800x600 60.3 56.2
640x480 59.9
TV1 unknown connection (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
1024x768 60.0 +
800x600 60.3
640x480 59.9

Now my internal is 'right', but my external is either 800x600, or at 
times when both are showing, it IS 1024x768, but blown up really BIG and 
only part of the screen showing and panning not working. So how can I 
learn to use xandr? From the man I see an example:

Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA:
xrandr --newmode "1024x768" 63.50 1024 1072 1176 1328 768 771
775 798 -hsync +vsync
xrandr --addmode VGA 1024x768
xrandr --output VGA --mode 1024x768

And I 'think' VGA is my external device because it is still at 800x600 
in the above query. And I would have to set LVDS1 so I can drop the 
xorg.conf.

This is REALLY better than xorg.conf? In what way?

Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Tuesday 05 January 2010 14:21:19 Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> On 01/05/2010 05:39 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > Sorry to jump in this thread, but have you tried to use xrandr to set up
> > the resolution you want? That way you don't need to generate xorg.conf,
> > and can convince X to give you any resolution you want (if supported by
> > hardware).
>
> OK. So I have seen this mention of xandr before so I did a man on it.
> Here is what I see from just xandr and with the xorg.conf:
>
> Screen 0: minimum 320 x 200, current 1024 x 768, maximum 4096 x 4096
> LVDS1 connected 1024x768+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
> 261mm x 163mm
> 1024x768 60.0*+
> 1280x800 59.8 +
> 800x600 60.3 56.2
> 640x480 59.9

This looks ok, if you are satisfied with 1024x768 for the laptop display. I see 
it is possible for it to do 1280x800, which is its 'native' resolution, I 
guess.
> VGA1 connected (normal left inverted right x axis y axis)
> 800x600 60.3 56.2
> 640x480 59.9

This doesn't look ok. Only these two low resolutions are available for the 
external display, and AFAIK this is always available by assumption. But the 
resolutions of your monitor are not autodetected properly. What kind of 
monitor do you have connected to VGA? If you are sure it can do 1024x768, then 
something is not well with EDID detection. Can you post the 
/var/log/Xorg.0.log, after booting with external monitor connected? There 
should be some info there on what resolutions get autodetected for external 
monitor (and if not, why not). Do you have something physically connected 
between the monitor and computer? A KVM switch, a splitter, maybe a faulty VGA 
extension cable, or such? Or the monitor is too old and doesn't provide EDID 
data?
> Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA:
> xrandr --newmode "1024x768" 63.50 1024 1072 1176 1328 768 771
> 775 798 -hsync +vsync
> xrandr --addmode VGA 1024x768
> xrandr --output VGA --mode 1024x768

Umm, that should be VGA1, not VGA.

Normally there is no need to specify the modeline manually, so the last 
command only should be enough. But it appears your monitor doesn't get 
detected properly, so manually specifying the modeline may be the only 
solution. This is of course easier to put in xorg.conf.

Also, what kind of setup would you like to have? Do you want cloned or 
independent displays? Which goes on the left and which on the right? What 
resolutions?
> This is REALLY better than xorg.conf? In what way?

Ok, I said I jumped in on this thread, maybe I missed something. What are your 
reasons against using xorg.conf in the first place? The difference between 
xorg.conf and xrandr is that the former is being used at boot, while the 
latter is targeted for interactive use. It is also a bit easier on the syntax 
(if your displays are detected correctly). If you have some specific reason for 
not using xorg.conf, you can experiment with various xrandr setups, and once 
you are satisfied, put the resulting command in a script somewhere to be 
executed on login or such.

Post the output of /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see what is the problem with 
autodetection of the external display, and your desired configuration, and then 
we'll see what is the best way to fix it.

HTH, :-)
Marko

Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 January 2010 14:21:19 Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > On 01/05/2010 05:39 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > > Sorry to jump in this thread, but have you tried to use xrandr to set up
> > > the resolution you want? That way you don't need to generate xorg.conf,
> > > and can convince X to give you any resolution you want (if supported by
> > > hardware).
>
> [...]
> Post the output of /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see what is the problem with 
> autodetection of the external display, and your desired configuration, and then 
> we'll see what is the best way to fix it.
>
> HTH, :-)
> Marko

Marko:

I captured the output of both /var/log/Xorg.0.log and xrandr when
booting up with the KVM pointed to the machine ("*__FOCUS") and pointed
to another machine (actually, a turned-off machine) ("*__NO_FOCUS)

Pretty clear to me that its doing a "default" lower res setting if it
doesn't see the monitor during the boot.

I read the xrandr and "think" that what I want to do is (based on the
example "Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA ..."):

xrandr --output DVI-I-1 --mode 1680x1050

If presume that this stays with the machine and is not session based
(don't know where the info goes, don't know if I care).

I wanted to check to see if I am understanding xrandr correctly and if
all I need is this one command since it already knows about DVD-I-1 and
the 1680x1050 resolution.

My other question is I noticed that I seem to be hooked up so my single
monitor is coming out of DVI-I-1 and not DVD-I-0. Haven't had any
problems with such, so I am assuming either DVI can be used if there is
only one monitor. But I thought I would ask in case there is something I
don't know about the system which would want me to move to DVI-I-0.

Thanks in advance,
Paul

ps: attachments enclosed ... first time rejected as I forgot to gzip ... 
do I tarballed and gzipped them up, hope this is acceptable for second try.

Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Monday 11 January 2010 03:51:16 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > Post the output of /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see what is the problem
> > with autodetection of the external display, and your desired
> > configuration, and then we'll see what is the best way to fix it.
>
> I captured the output of both /var/log/Xorg.0.log and xrandr when
> booting up with the KVM pointed to the machine ("*__FOCUS") and pointed
> to another machine (actually, a turned-off machine) ("*__NO_FOCUS)

Yes, well, from the logs it is evident that the monitor gets properly detected 
in both cases (when in focus and when not), but the resolution chosen 
(automatically) when not in focus is wrong, 800x600. This is probably some 
artifact of the interaction with KVM. Not sure precisely where is the problem, 
though.
> I read the xrandr and "think" that what I want to do is (based on the
> example "Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA ..."):
>
> xrandr --output DVI-I-1 --mode 1680x1050

Yes, that should be it. Try it out and see if it works. You should probably 
try it both when in focus and when not. It just might happen that the system 
refuses to give you 1680x1050 when not in focus, so in that case you should 
manually switch the resolution every time you get focus (with the above 
command).
> If presume that this stays with the machine and is not session based
> (don't know where the info goes, don't know if I care).

No, AFAIK xrandr is interactive and does not store the settings anywhere. If 
you want the settings to stick, you can either use xorg.conf, or create a 
script (with the above command inside) and execute it whenever necessary --- 
after login, or after getting focus, or whenever the resolution isn't 
correct...
> My other question is I noticed that I seem to be hooked up so my single
> monitor is coming out of DVI-I-1 and not DVD-I-0.

It appears you have two DVI outputs on your graphics card, but only one is 
connected to a monitor. I guess that the outputs are equivalent and either can 
be used, but if you want to test it, just plug in the cable in the other 
connector. :-) Anyway, I believe this should not matter much.

Best, :-)
Marko

Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Monday 11 January 2010 03:51:16 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > > Post the output of /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see what is the problem
> > > with autodetection of the external display, and your desired
> > > configuration, and then we'll see what is the best way to fix it.
> >
> > I captured the output of both /var/log/Xorg.0.log and xrandr when
> > booting up with the KVM pointed to the machine ("*__FOCUS") and pointed
> > to another machine (actually, a turned-off machine) ("*__NO_FOCUS)
>
> Yes, well, from the logs it is evident that the monitor gets properly detected 
> in both cases (when in focus and when not), but the resolution chosen 
> (automatically) when not in focus is wrong, 800x600. This is probably some 
> artifact of the interaction with KVM. Not sure precisely where is the problem, 
> though.
> > I read the xrandr and "think" that what I want to do is (based on the
> > example "Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA ..."):
> >
> > xrandr --output DVI-I-1 --mode 1680x1050
>
> Yes, that should be it. Try it out and see if it works. You should probably 
> try it both when in focus and when not. It just might happen that the system 
> refuses to give you 1680x1050 when not in focus, so in that case you should 
> manually switch the resolution every time you get focus (with the above 
> command).
> > If presume that this stays with the machine and is not session based
> > (don't know where the info goes, don't know if I care).
>
> No, AFAIK xrandr is interactive and does not store the settings anywhere. If 
> you want the settings to stick, you can either use xorg.conf, or create a 
> script (with the above command inside) and execute it whenever necessary --- 
> after login, or after getting focus, or whenever the resolution isn't 
> correct...
> > My other question is I noticed that I seem to be hooked up so my single
> > monitor is coming out of DVI-I-1 and not DVD-I-0.
>
> It appears you have two DVI outputs on your graphics card, but only one is 
> connected to a monitor. I guess that the outputs are equivalent and either can 
> be used, but if you want to test it, just plug in the cable in the other 
> connector. :-) Anyway, I believe this should not matter much.
>
> Best, :-)
> Marko

Marko:

Thanks for the multiple confirms of questions, I'll give it a try now 
that I know what I was going to do isn't horribly wrong.

Paul

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > On Monday 11 January 2010 03:51:16 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > > Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > > > Post the output of /var/log/Xorg.0.log, so we can see what is the 
> > > > problem
> > > > with autodetection of the external display, and your desired
> > > > configuration, and then we'll see what is the best way to fix it.
> > >
> > > I captured the output of both /var/log/Xorg.0.log and xrandr when
> > > booting up with the KVM pointed to the machine ("*__FOCUS") and pointed
> > > to another machine (actually, a turned-off machine) ("*__NO_FOCUS)
> >
> > Yes, well, from the logs it is evident that the monitor gets properly 
> > detected in both cases (when in focus and when not), but the 
> > resolution chosen (automatically) when not in focus is wrong, 
> > 800x600. This is probably some artifact of the interaction with KVM. 
> > Not sure precisely where is the problem, though.
> > > I read the xrandr and "think" that what I want to do is (based on the
> > > example "Forces to use a 1024x768 mode on an output called VGA ..."):
> > >
> > > xrandr --output DVI-I-1 --mode 1680x1050
> >
> > Yes, that should be it. Try it out and see if it works. You should 
> > probably try it both when in focus and when not. It just might happen 
> > that the system refuses to give you 1680x1050 when not in focus, so 
> > in that case you should manually switch the resolution every time you 
> > get focus (with the above command).
> > > If presume that this stays with the machine and is not session based
> > > (don't know where the info goes, don't know if I care).
> >
> > No, AFAIK xrandr is interactive and does not store the settings 
> > anywhere. If you want the settings to stick, you can either use 
> > xorg.conf, or create a script (with the above command inside) and 
> > execute it whenever necessary --- after login, or after getting 
> > focus, or whenever the resolution isn't correct...
> > > My other question is I noticed that I seem to be hooked up so my single
> > > monitor is coming out of DVI-I-1 and not DVD-I-0.
> >
> > It appears you have two DVI outputs on your graphics card, but only 
> > one is connected to a monitor. I guess that the outputs are 
> > equivalent and either can be used, but if you want to test it, just 
> > plug in the cable in the other connector. :-) Anyway, I believe this 
> > should not matter much.
> >
> > Best, :-)
> > Marko
>
> Marko:
>
> Thanks for the multiple confirms of questions, I'll give it a try now 
> that I know what I was going to do isn't horribly wrong.
>
> Paul

I tried out a couple of combinations and know that
1) the xrandr command does work
2) switching video to DVI-I-0 shows the same "kvm lack-of-focus" problem 
which xrandr fixed
3) after scanning web and etc/rc.d files, it seemed to me that I should 
have been able to put this xrandr command in rc.local and have it occur 
when the boot is finished ---  did not work (but, since I have to have 
the kvm pointed elsewhere to test, not certain if my test is valid)

It would seem to me that there should be a way I can have the boot 
process look to the info from xrandr and set itself to the "+" setting, 
but I can't figure out a way. I know its been an issue for many Fedoras 
/ RHELs which ctrl+alt+backspace at the gui login splash would solve, 
but f12 seems to only let me get that feature back once I have logged in 
(and kicking the display and getting an X restart once logged in isn't 
as clean as the xrandr command once logged in).

Thanks for help,
Paul

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 16:20:52 -0800,
  Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> I tried out a couple of combinations and know that
> the xrandr command does work
> switching video to DVI-I-0 shows the same "kvm lack-of-focus" problem
>
> which xrandr fixed
> 3) after scanning web and etc/rc.d files, it seemed to me that I should 
> have been able to put this xrandr command in rc.local and have it occur 
> when the boot is finished ---  did not work (but, since I have to have 
> the kvm pointed elsewhere to test, not certain if my test is valid)

In init you are not attached to a screen, so you will likely need to add
some options to xrandr to specifiy one.

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 16:20:52 -0800,
>   Paul Allen Newell  wrote:
> > I tried out a couple of combinations and know that
> > the xrandr command does work
> > switching video to DVI-I-0 shows the same "kvm lack-of-focus" problem
> >
> > which xrandr fixed
> > 3) after scanning web and etc/rc.d files, it seemed to me that I should 
> > have been able to put this xrandr command in rc.local and have it occur 
> > when the boot is finished ---  did not work (but, since I have to have 
> > the kvm pointed elsewhere to test, not certain if my test is valid)
>
> In init you are not attached to a screen, so you will likely need to add
> some options to xrandr to specifiy one.

Bruno:

Thanks for info ... I am now pretty certain that "init" is not the right 
place to try to kick the display.

Paul

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Tuesday 19 January 2010 00:20:52 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> I tried out a couple of combinations and know that
> the xrandr command does work

Good. :-)
> switching video to DVI-I-0 shows the same "kvm lack-of-focus" problem
>
> which xrandr fixed

That's expected, the two outputs should be treated equivalently by the system. 
If a problem appears on one, it is natural to assume it will appear on the 
other as well. But it was a good idea to check, just to be sure.
> after scanning web and etc/rc.d files, it seemed to me that I should
>
> have been able to put this xrandr command in rc.local and have it occur
> when the boot is finished ---  did not work (but, since I have to have
> the kvm pointed elsewhere to test, not certain if my test is valid)

Not sure, but I think that rc.local is executed before X is up. In that sense 
I'm not surprised that it doesn't work from rc.local.

Anyway, I suggest that you put the xrandr command in a shell script, and 
execute it using the Autostart feature of your DE (I know how to set it up in 
KDE, somebody else should know about Gnome, XFCE and others). Basically, 
create a file named "fixmymonitor.sh", put it in your ~/bin directory (create it 
if you don't have one), make it executable (chmod a+x fixmymonitor.sh), and put 
the following inside (use a text editor):

#! /bin/bash
xrandr ... (fill this line with the actual command that works for you)
exit

After you have created it, have your DE execute it automatically upon login. 
That is what I do basically (although for a different reason).

Someone else may have a better suggestion where to have the script executed 
(During GDM initialization? Somewhere in X? Elsewhere?).

If all else fails, you can always put the script in your favorite launcher or 
as an icon on the desktop, and click on it manually after you log in. :-) But 
I would recommend the autostart functionality of a DE, it is known to work.

HTH, :-)
Marko

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 January 2010 00:20:52 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > I tried out a couple of combinations and know that
> > the xrandr command does work
>
> Good. :-)
> > switching video to DVI-I-0 shows the same "kvm lack-of-focus" problem
> >
> > which xrandr fixed
>
> That's expected, the two outputs should be treated equivalently by the system. 
> If a problem appears on one, it is natural to assume it will appear on the 
> other as well. But it was a good idea to check, just to be sure.
> > after scanning web and etc/rc.d files, it seemed to me that I should
> >
> > have been able to put this xrandr command in rc.local and have it occur
> > when the boot is finished ---  did not work (but, since I have to have
> > the kvm pointed elsewhere to test, not certain if my test is valid)
>
> Not sure, but I think that rc.local is executed before X is up. In that sense 
> I'm not surprised that it doesn't work from rc.local.

That answers that, thanks. I figure there must be someplace to put it 
right before the login splash screen comes up, but I haven't been able 
to find that info.
> Anyway, I suggest that you put the xrandr command in a shell script, and 
> execute it using the Autostart feature of your DE (I know how to set it up in 
> KDE, somebody else should know about Gnome, XFCE and others). Basically, 
> create a file named "fixmymonitor.sh", put it in your ~/bin directory (create it 
> if you don't have one), make it executable (chmod a+x fixmymonitor.sh), and put 
> the following inside (use a text editor):
>
> #! /bin/bash
> xrandr ... (fill this line with the actual command that works for you)
> exit
>
> After you have created it, have your DE execute it automatically upon login. 
> That is what I do basically (although for a different reason).
>
> Someone else may have a better suggestion where to have the script executed 
> (During GDM initialization? Somewhere in X? Elsewhere?).
>
> If all else fails, you can always put the script in your favorite launcher or 
> as an icon on the desktop, and click on it manually after you log in. :-) But 
> I would recommend the autostart functionality of a DE, it is known to work.
>
> HTH, :-)
> Marko

I've already created the bash script that is in Desktop so I can just 
click it. If anyone has a Gnome suggestion for your KDE solution, I'd 
gladly try it.

Really appreciate the initial help and the follow-up,
Paul

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Tuesday 19 January 2010 05:06:45 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> I've already created the bash script that is in Desktop so I can just
> click it. If anyone has a Gnome suggestion for your KDE solution, I'd
> gladly try it.

I am certain that Gnome has autostart functionality, I just don't know exactly 
how to configure it, because I've never used it in Gnome. Just google "Gnome 
autostart". :-) For example,

http://www.ghacks.net/2009/04/08/add-an-application-to-gnomes-autostart/

Best, :-)
Marko

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Rick Stevens]

On 01/19/2010 04:31 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> On Tuesday 19 January 2010 05:06:45 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > I've already created the bash script that is in Desktop so I can just
> > click it. If anyone has a Gnome suggestion for your KDE solution, I'd
> > gladly try it.
>
> I am certain that Gnome has autostart functionality, I just don't know exactly
> how to configure it, because I've never used it in Gnome. Just google "Gnome
> autostart". :-) For example,
>
> http://www.ghacks.net/2009/04/08/add-an-application-to-gnomes-autostart/

It's fairly simple.  In gnome:

System->Preferences->Startup Applications

Click on the "Add" button, fill in the form and click "Add".  Then in
the previous screen (which pops back up), make sure the box associated
with your application is checked.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer                      [e-mail] -
- AIM/Skype: therps2        ICQ: 22643734            Yahoo: origrps2 -
-                                                                    -
-       "I'd explain it to you, but your brain might explode."       -
----------------------------------------------------------------------

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Paul Allen Newell]

Rick Stevens wrote:
> On 01/19/2010 04:31 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
> > On Tuesday 19 January 2010 05:06:45 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> > > I've already created the bash script that is in Desktop so I can just
> > > click it. If anyone has a Gnome suggestion for your KDE solution, I'd
> > > gladly try it.
> >
> > I am certain that Gnome has autostart functionality, I just don't know exactly
> > how to configure it, because I've never used it in Gnome. Just google "Gnome
> > autostart". :-) For example,
> >
> > http://www.ghacks.net/2009/04/08/add-an-application-to-gnomes-autostart/
>
> It's fairly simple.  In gnome:
>
> System->Preferences->Startup Applications
>
> Click on the "Add" button, fill in the form and click "Add".  Then in
> the previous screen (which pops back up), make sure the box associated
> with your application is checked.
> Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer                      [e-mail] -
> AIM/Skype: therps2        ICQ: 22643734            Yahoo: origrps2 -
>                                                                -
>   "I'd explain it to you, but your brain might explode."       -

Rick and Marco:

I spotted a different reference to settings once a user has logged in. 
Maybe I am asking too much, but I'd like to try to find a way to slip 
the xrandr command in after X has started and before the GUI login 
splash screen happens so that, hopefully, things will be 1680x1050 at 
that point and I won't have do it on a per user basis (quick reading of 
Marko's post made it appear that way, I'd be happy to be corrected).

Thanks for advice, I will certainly give it a go this weekend as it 
sounds better than shell scripts to execute on the desktop.

Paul

[MOSTLY SOLVED] Re: Using xandr -- Re: problems with system-config-display and crtl-alt-backspace

[Marko Vojinovic]

On Wednesday 20 January 2010 02:28:43 Paul Allen Newell wrote:
> I spotted a different reference to settings once a user has logged in.
> Maybe I am asking too much, but I'd like to try to find a way to slip
> the xrandr command in after X has started and before the GUI login
> splash screen happens so that, hopefully, things will be 1680x1050 at
> that point and I won't have do it on a per user basis (quick reading of
> Marko's post made it appear that way, I'd be happy to be corrected).

Well, as far as I can see, the likely candidate where you can put xrandr early 
on is /etc/X11/prefdm --- try putting the xrandr line just after the plymouth 
line. Use the full path (/usr/bin/xrandr) just in case.

I don't guarantee that this will work, never tried it. Also, if this borks 
your system, kills X, blows up your monitor, or whatever --- I am not to be 
held responsible. :-)

Btw, the prefdm file might get overwritten by an update, so be aware of that as 
well.

All in all, this is an ugly hack, YMMV. That said, I don't see any better 
place to put xrandr in order to achieve what you want (if it even works 
there).

HTH, :-)
Marko

[Robert Moskowitz]

On 01/04/2010 11:40 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the internal
> > display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf to
> > get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me more
> > without the xorg.conf?
> >
> > BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have always
> > run it at 1024x768.
>
> When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
> Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
> "Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
> notebook)" fix my issue.

And this creates a xorg.conf.  My point exactly.  This DOES fix my 
internal LCD device, but not the external monitor.  Even when the KVM is 
'on' the notebook at boot time.

[Tony Nelson]

On 10-01-04 23:40:46, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> > And I cannot get my notebook to even go over 800x600 for the
>
> internal
> > display without using system-config-display to create a xorg.conf
>
> to
> > get higher resolution with FC12.  How do I convince X to give me
>
> more
> > without the xorg.conf?
> >
> > BTW, this is on an HP nc2400 that has a 12" display, but I have
>
> always
> > run it at 1024x768.
>
> When you run system-config-display what shows as "Hardware--->Monitor
> Type".  I had, what I believe, was a similar problem.  Setting it to
> "Generic LCD Display--->LCD Panel (with native resolution of my
> notebook)" fix my issue.

I see that the native resolution is widescreen 1280x800.  If you want 
to use that but text is too small, try changing Resolution to a 
higher number in System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Fonts -> 
Details (gnome-appearance-properties).