Well, Back in 2010 I heard f15 will feature experimental wayland support (from Alan Jackson AKA ajax). Anyone knows what's the latest update on that issue? Will we ever gonna see wayland replacing X? Junayeed Ahnaf Nirjhor
On 21/10/12 08:10, Junayeed Ahnaf wrote:
Well,
Back in 2010 I heard f15 will feature experimental wayland support (from Alan Jackson AKA ajax). Anyone knows what's the latest update on that issue? Will we ever gonna see wayland replacing X?
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2012-September/005460.ht...
On 10/21/2012 09:10 AM, Junayeed Ahnaf wrote:
Well,
Back in 2010 I heard f15 will feature experimental wayland support (from Alan Jackson AKA ajax). Anyone knows what's the latest update on that issue? Will we ever gonna see wayland replacing X?
The Wayland project is very much alive and well.
You can read the latest news about Wayland by keeping an eye on phoronix.com as Michael follows Wayland development pretty closely. Just search their site for Wayland and you get the latest news.
As far as replacing X with Wayland goes, my guess it's a matter of time. Wayland 1.0 will be announced next week which means there's a stable API/ABI which projects now living on top of X can use to make their apps available on Wayland.
Regards, Patrick
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Patrick Lists < fedora-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 10/21/2012 09:10 AM, Junayeed Ahnaf wrote:
Well,
Back in 2010 I heard f15 will feature experimental wayland support (from Alan Jackson AKA ajax). Anyone knows what's the latest update on that issue? Will we ever gonna see wayland replacing X?
The Wayland project is very much alive and well.
You can read the latest news about Wayland by keeping an eye on phoronix.com as Michael follows Wayland development pretty closely. Just search their site for Wayland and you get the latest news.
As far as replacing X with Wayland goes, my guess it's a matter of time. Wayland 1.0 will be announced next week which means there's a stable API/ABI which projects now living on top of X can use to make their apps available on Wayland.
Regards, Patrick
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I have not been following this closely, but it sure looks interesting.
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
On 10/21/2012 06:59 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: [snip]
I have not been following this closely, but it sure looks interesting.
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
I'm not a developer but my guess is that X's 25 year old codebase is dragging along a tremendous amount of dead/unused/legacy code while Wayland is just a couple of years old and does not have that baggage. There are a fair amount of videos about Wayland and the website can probably provide you with more information:
http://wayland.freedesktop.org/
Also Wayland is in the Fedora 17 yum repository.
Regards, Patrick
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:05:36 +0200 Patrick Lists fedora-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl wrote:
On 10/21/2012 06:59 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: [snip]
I have not been following this closely, but it sure looks interesting.
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
I'm not a developer but my guess is that X's 25 year old codebase is dragging along a tremendous amount of dead/unused/legacy code while Wayland is just a couple of years old and does not have that baggage.
I wonder if a safer approach were to just look at and drop such code within the project. I guess I worry that this might break an established setup that has stood the test of time....but then it is harder to have maintainers than developers (not much fun in the first set of tasks).
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:05:36 +0200 Patrick Lists fedora-list@puzzled.xs4all.nl wrote:
On 10/21/2012 06:59 PM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote: [snip]
I have not been following this closely, but it sure looks interesting.
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
I'm not a developer but my guess is that X's 25 year old codebase is dragging along a tremendous amount of dead/unused/legacy code
X is a protocol not a codebase. You can write a new X server without using any existing code. The protocol can be extended and the extensions can do much. There are however some deeply wired assumptions that may one day break - one example usually quoted is the co-ordinate range of the display.
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:59:26 +0200 Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
On 10/21/2012 01:06 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:59:26 +0200 Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
Finally somebody talks some sense!
--doug
On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 01:40:49PM -0400, Doug wrote:
On 10/21/2012 01:06 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:59:26 +0200 Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
Finally somebody talks some sense!
As what he is saying is not true, I don't see how it makes sense.
Christopher Svanefalk:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Tom Horsley:
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
I think it ought to be mandatory for programmers to read "The Emperor's New Clothes," plus a tutorial that makes it damn clear what message you're supposed to take from the story.
Some days you think they've got the same training as the completely hollow people who work in sales and marketing.
The most significant change wayland will bring over X is the ability to softwares directly talking to hardwares instead of middlewares. Less hangup and stuffs.
Junayeed Ahnaf Nirjhor
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 04:18:36AM +1030, Tim wrote:
Christopher Svanefalk:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Tom Horsley:
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
I think it ought to be mandatory for programmers to read "The Emperor's New Clothes," plus a tutorial that makes it damn clear what message you're supposed to take from the story.
Some days you think they've got the same training as the completely hollow people who work in sales and marketing.
What Tom stated is incorrect/outdated.
On 10/21/2012 07:06 PM, Tom Horsley wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:59:26 +0200 Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
Loss of remote display capability? Destruction of compatibility for tens of thousands of existing applications? But it is shiny and new and written from scratch, so obviously it is better.
I would expect you to be able to use X with those tens of thousands of applications for years to come. The vested interest of the Enterprise will probably demand that. And if I understand the thread below correctly then there seems to be remote display capability:
http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/wayland-devel/2012-February/002355.htm...
Regards, Patrick
On 10/21/2012 09:59 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
http://lwn.net/Articles/517375/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)
Wayland lacks a lot of features that exist in X.org, currently. I think the idea that X11 can't be fixed, as presented in the first link, is overstated. X11 can definitely lock keyboard and mouse access, though that functionality isn't used in all of the places that it's needed. A lot of my interest in Wayland is hope that they don't make input handling *worse* than X11.
On 10/22/2012 01:31 AM, Gordon Messmer wrote:
On 10/21/2012 09:59 AM, Christopher Svanefalk wrote:
What would be some key benefits of replacing X with Wayland?
http://lwn.net/Articles/517375/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayland_(display_server_protocol)
Wayland lacks a lot of features that exist in X.org, currently. I think the idea that X11 can't be fixed, as presented in the first link, is overstated.
Short version: X11 can certainly be fixed. The fix is called Wayland.
Longer version: The problem inherent to any real fix at the protocol level would involve breaking backward compatibility and we have seen a large amount effort go into maintaining that compatibility through a patchwork of extensions that has pushed forward X far beyond its original limitations. However that comes at a very significant cost in terms of code complexity and people willing to work on X have dwindled down partly because of this c.f Google SoC and Xorg.
Wayland was started by a major Xorg developer and has the support of several other Xorg developers because it doesn't throw away and restart everything from scratch. It uses infrastructure built over a number of years including KMS, DRI2 and so on. With the advent of xwayland, compatibility concerns are addressed as well. Having said that, there are likely to be teething issues and transition is going to be very slow and incremental. The ability to run X apps will have to be retained pretty much forever anyway.
Rahul
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Alan Cox -
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Doug -
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Gordon Messmer -
Junayeed Ahnaf -
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Ranjan Maitra -
Tim -
Tom Horsley