Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon. Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro. Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
Thanks,
----- Lee
On Jan 11, 2025, at 07:24, Lee Thomas Stephen lee.iitb@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon. Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro. Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
I’m not sure if it makes sense to ask if IBM had plans for this. Red Hat may or may not have plans but IBM doesn’t direct Red Hat in such a manner.
Red Hat already is a leader in the field of providing an enterprise server, but it isn’t a drop-in replacement for Windows Server. I don’t see any reason why Red Hat would need to change to address that.
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
On Sat, 2025-01-11 at 10:57 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote:
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
The thing that gets brought up to me if I ever mention Linux to a friend is gaming. He's into all that World of Warcraft immersive fantasy and 3D shoot-em-up stuff. High-resolution graphics, high frame rate, probably only released for Windows stuff.
I'm not into gaming, at all. I probably played Tetris a few times on Fedora while stuck waiting on the phone several years ago. Go back 20 years, I dabbled with Midtown Madness on Win98, with just about enough stupidity and fun to make it playable, even on my basic PC. Go back to the 1990s, and Deluxe Pacman on the Amiga 1200 was about my limit. Three different games... "Woo." (said very dully).
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 02:48 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Sat, 2025-01-11 at 10:57 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote:
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
The thing that gets brought up to me if I ever mention Linux to a friend is gaming. He's into all that World of Warcraft immersive fantasy and 3D shoot-em-up stuff. High-resolution graphics, high frame rate, probably only released for Windows stuff.
Just to stick my oar in, the use of Linux for gaming has evolved enormously in the past couple of years, mainly owing to Valve's putting real money and effort into the Proton compatibility shim (built on Wine) in order to support the Steam Deck handheld, which is based on Arch Linux. I'm retired and took up gaming a few years ago. I used to jump through hoops to get Windows working in a VM with PCI passthrough so the guest could have direct access to the GPU. I haven't had to do that in at least two years. Not everything works, particularly games with anti-cheat systems implemented as kernel-level blobs, but I don;t care about those gamnes anyway so no loss.
A look at https://www.protondb.com/https://www.protondb.com/ gives an idea of the current state of play (pun intended). Interestingly, the games that do work sometimes have better performance on Proton than on Windows. BTW, Steam is about to release SteamOS for competitor's handhelds, Lenovo being the first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
poc
On 12/1/25 03:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 02:48 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Sat, 2025-01-11 at 10:57 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote:
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
The thing that gets brought up to me if I ever mention Linux to a friend is gaming. He's into all that World of Warcraft immersive fantasy and 3D shoot-em-up stuff. High-resolution graphics, high frame rate, probably only released for Windows stuff.
Just to stick my oar in, the use of Linux for gaming has evolved enormously in the past couple of years, mainly owing to Valve's putting real money and effort into the Proton compatibility shim (built on Wine) in order to support the Steam Deck handheld, which is based on Arch Linux. I'm retired and took up gaming a few years ago. I used to jump through hoops to get Windows working in a VM with PCI passthrough so the guest could have direct access to the GPU. I haven't had to do that in at least two years. Not everything works, particularly games with anti-cheat systems implemented as kernel-level blobs, but I don;t care about those gamnes anyway so no loss.
A look at https://www.protondb.com/https://www.protondb.com/ gives an idea of the current state of play (pun intended). Interestingly, the games that do work sometimes have better performance on Proton than on Windows. BTW, Steam is about to release SteamOS for competitor's handhelds, Lenovo being the first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
I have had a look at games in Fedora under steam, and what I have found is games that are tagged as Windows don't run under linux and games tagged as Linux don't run under Windows. I have also had issues with games tagged as Linux, not running in Fedora because at the time the nvidia driver version from rpmfusion was too old for what the game wanted, and I don't know of a Linux equivalent of "Nvidia Experience" that allows the downloading and installation of current nvidia drivers and also provides optimisation capabilities of supported games.
regards, Steve
poc
On 1/11/25 4:58 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:
I have had a look at games in Fedora under steam, and what I have found is games that are tagged as Windows don't run under linux and games tagged as Linux don't run under Windows. I have also had issues with games tagged as Linux, not running in Fedora because at the time the nvidia driver version from rpmfusion was too old for what the game wanted, and I don't know of a Linux equivalent of "Nvidia Experience" that allows the downloading and installation of current nvidia drivers and also provides optimisation capabilities of supported games.
I haven't had any issues running the "Windows" games under Steam, other than I often have to override the compatibility setting to use the latest emulation option. However, I also only use AMD graphics cards.
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 11:58 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
On 12/1/25 03:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 02:48 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Sat, 2025-01-11 at 10:57 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote:
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
The thing that gets brought up to me if I ever mention Linux to a friend is gaming. He's into all that World of Warcraft immersive fantasy and 3D shoot-em-up stuff. High-resolution graphics, high frame rate, probably only released for Windows stuff.
Just to stick my oar in, the use of Linux for gaming has evolved enormously in the past couple of years, mainly owing to Valve's putting real money and effort into the Proton compatibility shim (built on Wine) in order to support the Steam Deck handheld, which is based on Arch Linux. I'm retired and took up gaming a few years ago. I used to jump through hoops to get Windows working in a VM with PCI passthrough so the guest could have direct access to the GPU. I haven't had to do that in at least two years. Not everything works, particularly games with anti-cheat systems implemented as kernel-level blobs, but I don;t care about those gamnes anyway so no loss.
A look at https://www.protondb.com/https://www.protondb.com/ gives an idea of the current state of play (pun intended). Interestingly, the games that do work sometimes have better performance on Proton than on Windows. BTW, Steam is about to release SteamOS for competitor's handhelds, Lenovo being the first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
I have had a look at games in Fedora under steam, and what I have found is games that are tagged as Windows don't run under linux and games tagged as Linux don't run under Windows. I have also had issues with games tagged as Linux, not running in Fedora because at the time the nvidia driver version from rpmfusion was too old for what the game wanted, and I don't know of a Linux equivalent of "Nvidia Experience" that allows the downloading and installation of current nvidia drivers and also provides optimisation capabilities of supported games.
I can only say that you must be doing it wrong. Have you actually installed Steam on Fedora? See:
$ rpm -qi steam-1.0.0.82-1.fc41.i686 Name : steam Version : 1.0.0.82 Release : 1.fc41 Architecture: i686 Install Date: Fri 29 Nov 2024 22:14:24 GMT Group : Unspecified Size : 19552823 License : Steam License Agreement and MIT Signature : RSA/SHA256, Sat 16 Nov 2024 10:52:08 GMT, Key ID 6a2af96194843c65 Source RPM : steam-1.0.0.82-1.fc41.src.rpm Build Date : Sun 10 Nov 2024 14:23:42 GMT Build Host : buildvm-03.online.rpmfusion.net Packager : RPM Fusion Vendor : RPM Fusion URL : http://www.steampowered.com/ Summary : Installer for the Steam software distribution service Description : Steam is a software distribution service with an online store, automated installation, automatic updates, achievements, SteamCloud synchronized savegame and screenshot functionality, and many social features.
I've played multiple AAA games under both Steam and other systems (Lutris, Hero Games Launcher, etc.) and although there is the occasional tweak required to the Proton settings they have generally worked extremely well. I now have an AMD GPU but when I had an Nvidia the experience was essentially the same. I can even play remotely on my TV using the Sunshine server on Fedora and the Moonlight app on the TV box.
poc
On 12/1/25 21:55, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 11:58 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
On 12/1/25 03:45, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 02:48 +1030, Tim via users wrote:
On Sat, 2025-01-11 at 10:57 -0500, Jonathan Billings wrote:
If you are asking about RHEL Workstation as a Windows Desktop replacement, I don’t believe that’s part of Red Hat’s strategic objective. Maybe for large engineering or animation workshops but not as a general computing devices.
That isn’t to say you can’t use it that way, I’ve done it for a large part of my career as a desktop Linux sysadmin. But your question is about whether IBM or Red Hat would promote it as a Windows replacement.
I suggest Fedora Workstation instead of Windows.
The thing that gets brought up to me if I ever mention Linux to a friend is gaming. He's into all that World of Warcraft immersive fantasy and 3D shoot-em-up stuff. High-resolution graphics, high frame rate, probably only released for Windows stuff.
Just to stick my oar in, the use of Linux for gaming has evolved enormously in the past couple of years, mainly owing to Valve's putting real money and effort into the Proton compatibility shim (built on Wine) in order to support the Steam Deck handheld, which is based on Arch Linux. I'm retired and took up gaming a few years ago. I used to jump through hoops to get Windows working in a VM with PCI passthrough so the guest could have direct access to the GPU. I haven't had to do that in at least two years. Not everything works, particularly games with anti-cheat systems implemented as kernel-level blobs, but I don;t care about those gamnes anyway so no loss.
A look at https://www.protondb.com/https://www.protondb.com/ gives an idea of the current state of play (pun intended). Interestingly, the games that do work sometimes have better performance on Proton than on Windows. BTW, Steam is about to release SteamOS for competitor's handhelds, Lenovo being the first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
I have had a look at games in Fedora under steam, and what I have found is games that are tagged as Windows don't run under linux and games tagged as Linux don't run under Windows. I have also had issues with games tagged as Linux, not running in Fedora because at the time the nvidia driver version from rpmfusion was too old for what the game wanted, and I don't know of a Linux equivalent of "Nvidia Experience" that allows the downloading and installation of current nvidia drivers and also provides optimisation capabilities of supported games.
I can only say that you must be doing it wrong. Have you actually installed Steam on Fedora? See:
$ rpm -qi steam-1.0.0.82-1.fc41.i686 Name : steam Version : 1.0.0.82 Release : 1.fc41 Architecture: i686 Install Date: Fri 29 Nov 2024 22:14:24 GMT Group : Unspecified Size : 19552823 License : Steam License Agreement and MIT Signature : RSA/SHA256, Sat 16 Nov 2024 10:52:08 GMT, Key ID 6a2af96194843c65 Source RPM : steam-1.0.0.82-1.fc41.src.rpm Build Date : Sun 10 Nov 2024 14:23:42 GMT Build Host : buildvm-03.online.rpmfusion.net Packager : RPM Fusion Vendor : RPM Fusion URL : http://www.steampowered.com/ Summary : Installer for the Steam software distribution service Description : Steam is a software distribution service with an online store, automated installation, automatic updates, achievements, SteamCloud synchronized savegame and screenshot functionality, and many social features.I've played multiple AAA games under both Steam and other systems (Lutris, Hero Games Launcher, etc.) and although there is the occasional tweak required to the Proton settings they have generally worked extremely well. I now have an AMD GPU but when I had an Nvidia the experience was essentially the same. I can even play remotely on my TV using the Sunshine server on Fedora and the Moonlight app on the TV box.
I have steam installed under Windows, Fedora and Ubuntu, but looking at the Fedora install things may have now changed from what used to happen. Having configured steam to accept the beta services it has installed the proton system which seems to provide better support for Windows processes. A lot of the issues I used to have of games tagged in steam as being Windows wouldn't even install because of operating system checks they were doing, but the proton implementation seems to have removed a lot of that, but I am still having issues with one of the Windows games I play not being usable under linux, but this is because of the anti-cheat system in the game which is also documented as potentially not working under linux. All the solutions I have read for the error I'm getting from the anti-cheat system don't work under linux and what they are indicating as to what is installed doesn't match the install that happened under linux, a second game that I run under Windows seems to install and run in linux without any issues.
regards, Steve
poc
On Wed, 2025-01-22 at 09:22 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
I am still having issues with one of the Windows games I play not being usable under linux, but this is because of the anti-cheat system in the game which is also documented as potentially not working under linux. All the solutions I have read for the error I'm getting from the anti-cheat system don't work under linux and what they are indicating as to what is installed doesn't match the install that happened under linux, a second game that I run under Windows seems to install and run in linux without any issues.
I don't play any games with anti-cheat systems. AFAIK these are all multi-player, which doesn't interest me. The Windows anti-cheat systems require kernel-level modifications, so it's hardly surprising that they don't work on Linux.
poc
On 22/1/25 22:02, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Wed, 2025-01-22 at 09:22 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
I am still having issues with one of the Windows games I play not being usable under linux, but this is because of the anti-cheat system in the game which is also documented as potentially not working under linux. All the solutions I have read for the error I'm getting from the anti-cheat system don't work under linux and what they are indicating as to what is installed doesn't match the install that happened under linux, a second game that I run under Windows seems to install and run in linux without any issues.
I don't play any games with anti-cheat systems. AFAIK these are all multi-player, which doesn't interest me. The Windows anti-cheat systems require kernel-level modifications, so it's hardly surprising that they don't work on Linux.
True, but when the files that are documented to run to fix issues with that system under Windows don't exist under linux, it seems that steam has done a different install under linux, so I would have expected that it would have installed linux compatible versions of the files, but that doesn't seem to have happened. To get these features available you have to activate the beta functionality, which from what I've read installs a modified version of wine, it would be interesting to see if I can add the installer for utilities I haven't been able to install under wine in the past and run those under steam to actually install the product. It would be even nicer if the linux version of steam and the Windows version of steam could be installed and utilised under a shared location, but linux's case sensitivity potentially precludes that functionality, as evidenced by Thunderbird's functionality with local folders.
regards, Steve
poc
On Tue, 2025-01-28 at 09:13 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
I don't play any games with anti-cheat systems. AFAIK these are all multi-player, which doesn't interest me. The Windows anti-cheat systems require kernel-level modifications, so it's hardly surprising that they don't work on Linux.
True, but when the files that are documented to run to fix issues with that system under Windows don't exist under linux, it seems that steam has done a different install under linux, so I would have expected that it would have installed linux compatible versions of the files, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
What files are you talking about?
poc
So, it is a symbiotic relationship.
MS Partners, like OEMs and device manufacturers, provide Windows/Office pre-installed, and manufacturers offer Windows-only drivers. MS keeps changing things so that the new version runs well if you buy a new OEM computer or device. I posted this message because the kernel, starting with RHEL 9.5, warns during boot that a future major release (RHEL 10?) will probably not support my CPU. This means RHEL is also trying out the MS strategy. Anyway, I ordered a new Computer, which I hope RHEL versions will run for another 15 years. (I bought the current Dell Desktop in 2010). Thank you all for the interesting information you shared. I can download a Red Hat AI image and try it out on the new PC once I get it.
Thanks, --- Lee
On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 3:51 AM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, 2025-01-28 at 09:13 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
I don't play any games with anti-cheat systems. AFAIK these are all multi-player, which doesn't interest me. The Windows anti-cheat systems require kernel-level modifications, so it's hardly surprising that they don't work on Linux.
True, but when the files that are documented to run to fix issues with that system under Windows don't exist under linux, it seems that steam has done a different install under linux, so I would have expected that it would have installed linux compatible versions of the files, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
What files are you talking about?
poc
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
Lee Thomas Stephen lee.iitb@gmail.com writes:
I posted this message because the kernel, starting with RHEL 9.5, warns during boot that a future major release (RHEL 10?) will probably not support my CPU.
RHEL 10 is going to require you to have... a ten year old or younger computer. If your computer is older than 10 years, stay on RHEL 9 until you can upgrade, or use Fedora. Most enterprise folk upgrade their hardware much more often than that, and supporting x86-64-v3 offers many performance upgrades.
https://developers.redhat.com/articles/2024/01/02/exploring-x86-64-v3-red-ha...
Pro tip - RHEL doesn't support 32-bit systems any more either. Time to upgrade! ;-)
MS keeps changing things so that the new version runs well if you buy a new OEM computer or device. This means RHEL is also trying out the MS strategy.
Not at all. You're just not the target customer if your hardware is ancient.
On Wed, 2025-01-29 at 20:03 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
So, it is a symbiotic relationship.
Kindly refrain from hijacking threads. This topic has *nothing* to do with the post you decided to reply to, and changing the Subject line does not make it OK. When you want to post on a new topic. create a new post and don't just reply to an existing one.
This has been stated multiple times on the list, including in the past few days. You may find it profitable to read the list Guidelines, linked to at the end of every message here.
poc
On Wed, 2025-01-29 at 23:07 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Wed, 2025-01-29 at 20:03 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
So, it is a symbiotic relationship.
Kindly refrain from hijacking threads. This topic has *nothing* to do with the post you decided to reply to, and changing the Subject line does not make it OK. When you want to post on a new topic. create a new post and don't just reply to an existing one.
My bad. I misread your post and apologise for my reaction. This was in part because you replied to my post (itself in reply to Stephen Morris) but said nothing about the subtopic we were discussing.
It would have been better to back up a few levels.
poc
Hi Patrick,
I am primarily a lurker on this list and only post on rare occasions. As someone unfamiliar with all the unwritten rules of the community, I should have been more careful and considerate in my response. Thank you for pointing this out, and I will try to be more mindful in the future.
Thanks, --- Lee
On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 4:54 AM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, 2025-01-29 at 23:07 +0000, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Wed, 2025-01-29 at 20:03 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
So, it is a symbiotic relationship.
Kindly refrain from hijacking threads. This topic has *nothing* to do with the post you decided to reply to, and changing the Subject line does not make it OK. When you want to post on a new topic. create a new post and don't just reply to an existing one.
My bad. I misread your post and apologise for my reaction. This was in part because you replied to my post (itself in reply to Stephen Morris) but said nothing about the subtopic we were discussing.
It would have been better to back up a few levels.
poc
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On Thu, 2025-01-30 at 12:40 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
I am primarily a lurker on this list and only post on rare occasions. As someone unfamiliar with all the unwritten rules of the community, I should have been more careful and considerate in my response. Thank you for pointing this out, and I will try to be more mindful in the future.
Thanks for your comment.
However I should point out that I wasn't (in my initial overreaction) talking about unwritten rules. The list Guidelines are explicit about not hijacking threads (and other practices such as top-posting, preference for plain-text and so on).
Once again: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
All the best.
poc
On Thu, Jan 30, 2025 at 3:57 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for your comment.
However I should point out that I wasn't (in my initial overreaction) talking about unwritten rules. The list Guidelines are explicit about not hijacking threads (and other practices such as top-posting, preference for plain-text and so on).
Once again: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines
All the best.
poc
Hi Patrick,
Aah, NO Top-Posting. I often forget that, as most colleagues use Gmail or other HTML mailers for work. I wish there was some Gmail plugin that could fix top posting.
Thanks for the link, which I now see is in the footer. --- Lee
On Fri, 2025-01-31 at 10:13 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
Aah, NO Top-Posting. I often forget that, as most colleagues use Gmail or other HTML mailers for work. I wish there was some Gmail plugin that could fix top posting.
There used to be an option in Gmail Labs that let you mark a section of text before hitting Reply, quote the marked text, and place the cursor at the end. In other words, sanity.
It was removed several years ago.
For lists such as this one, I use my desktop MUA (Evolution in my case) even though my email account is on Gmail.
poc
On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 4:05 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
There used to be an option in Gmail Labs that let you mark a section of text before hitting Reply, quote the marked text, and place the cursor at the end. In other words, sanity.
It was removed several years ago.
For lists such as this one, I use my desktop MUA (Evolution in my case) even though my email account is on Gmail.
poc
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for the suggestion. I would have used Evolution as my desktop MUA, but I found this [https://support.google.com/mail/answer/13384326] feature in Gmail is invaluable, especially for replying to long threads like this one. It helps me stay organized and ensures I don't miss any crucial points.
Thanks again for your understanding.
Best, --- Lee
On Tue, 2025-02-11 at 08:24 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 4:05 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
There used to be an option in Gmail Labs that let you mark a section of text before hitting Reply, quote the marked text, and place the cursor at the end. In other words, sanity.
It was removed several years ago.
For lists such as this one, I use my desktop MUA (Evolution in my case) even though my email account is on Gmail.
poc
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for the suggestion. I would have used Evolution as my desktop MUA, but I found this [https://support.google.com/mail/answer/13384326] feature in Gmail is invaluable, especially for replying to long threads like this one. It helps me stay organized and ensures I don't miss any crucial points.
I don't understand. The link is to a Help piece on Gemini (which doesn't appeal to me for email), and seems to be related to Google Workspace, not Gmail. It also doesn't appear to say anything about top- posting.
poc
On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 5:35 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
I don't understand. The link is to a Help piece on Gemini (which doesn't appeal to me for email), and seems to be related to Google Workspace, not Gmail. It also doesn't appear to say anything about top- posting.
poc
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
You are correct that the Gmail feature I mentioned does not directly address top-posting. My poor English writing skills often lead me to miss important points, and I have found that using the Workspace lab feature (which uses Gemini as the backend) has improved people's comprehension of my emails. Evolution does not have this feature. When I start Ordinary Gmail in the browser, I see the Gmail Workspace Image, so Gmail is considered a Workpace App by Google.
Best, --- Lee
On Wed, 2025-02-12 at 00:10 +0530, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 5:35 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
I don't understand. The link is to a Help piece on Gemini (which doesn't appeal to me for email), and seems to be related to Google Workspace, not Gmail. It also doesn't appear to say anything about top- posting.
poc
Hi Patrick,
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
You are correct that the Gmail feature I mentioned does not directly address top-posting.
So not actually relevant to this subthread.
My poor English writing skills often lead me to miss important points, and I have found that using the Workspace lab feature (which uses Gemini as the backend) has improved people's comprehension of my emails. Evolution does not have this feature.
IMHO that simply isn't a core function for an email MUA, though I can see it being useful as an optional add-on.
When I start Ordinary Gmail in the browser, I see the Gmail Workspace Image, so Gmail is considered a Workpace App by Google.
I see settings for GW (even in Gmail) but this particular one doesn't appear to be there.
poc
On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 5:35 PM Patrick O'Callaghan pocallaghan@gmail.com wrote:
I see settings for GW (even in Gmail) but this particular one doesn't appear to be there.
Hi Patrick,
I was able to sign up for Workspace Labs by using a VPN. It took about a month to get enabled after I applied. [https://workspace.google.com/labs-sign-up] VPN is not necessary now. Thanks again for your help and suggestions.
Best, --- Lee
On 28/1/25 09:19, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
On Tue, 2025-01-28 at 09:13 +1100, Stephen Morris wrote:
I don't play any games with anti-cheat systems. AFAIK these are all multi-player, which doesn't interest me. The Windows anti-cheat systems require kernel-level modifications, so it's hardly surprising that they don't work on Linux.
True, but when the files that are documented to run to fix issues with that system under Windows don't exist under linux, it seems that steam has done a different install under linux, so I would have expected that it would have installed linux compatible versions of the files, but that doesn't seem to have happened.
What files are you talking about?
It looks like the documentation I read on how to fix the EasyAntiCheat issue was either rubbish or old as the .bat file the documentation was saying to run doesn't exist in the Windows Game installation either.
regards, Steve
poc
On 1/11/25 4:23 AM, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon. Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro. Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
Thanks,
Lee
Hi Lee,
Kaisen: constant change
RHEL is wonderful if you have an "appliance" application. Appliance, meaning "set and forget". Nothing must ever change. RHEL is AWFUL for a Kaisen situation: upgrade, new features etc.
Fedroa wonderful for Kaisen, which would be almost all of your standard computer users.
There really is no opportunity for RHEL with W10 expiring.
I have my foot in both the Fedora and Windows pool. This is what I see happening.
1) w10 users just gets a good antivirus and ignore the end of life
2) they upgrade to W11, if they can.
3) they buy a new computer that meets W11's asinine hardware requirements
4) they install Tiny-11, which is a stripped W11 and I highly recommend it (get around the hardware requirements, the spyware accounts, remove tons of M$ trash)
5) they have me install Fedora on their old equipment
Here is the thing. Fedora is vastly superior to Windows in technology, security, and quality.
Fedora is easier to use than Windows (not gnome). This was not the case in the far past but not for a lot of years. I install MATE on my low skill users. I recommend MATE, Xfce, KDE.
Windows has all their favorite apps: M$ Office, Adobe stuff, Quick Books, Family Tree Maker, Turbo Tax, etc.. This is Fedora's only downfall the typically deal killer.
Fedora has Wine, but Wine is Alpha code at best. Most Windows apps do not run in it.
But Fedora also has qemu-kvm, which runs Windows really well, but virtual machine are typically over the standard users heads. It is confusing for them (not anyone on this mail list though.)
My two cents. -T
Hi Todd,
The suggestion came from my personal experience. I use RHEL as my personal/work desktop workstation. After moving to RHEL 9, I boot to Windows 10 twice yearly, only to check for updates. I never miss Windows because most of today's apps are available on DNF, Flatpak, or the Browser. I have used Fedora for 2 years because I was okay with formatting once every 6 months. I moved to RHEL after work (at home) became more hectic, and I did not want any more distractions.
Thanks ----- Lee
On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 8:37 AM ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 1/11/25 4:23 AM, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon. Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro. Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
Thanks,
Lee
Hi Lee,
Kaisen: constant change
RHEL is wonderful if you have an "appliance" application. Appliance, meaning "set and forget". Nothing must ever change. RHEL is AWFUL for a Kaisen situation: upgrade, new features etc.
Fedroa wonderful for Kaisen, which would be almost all of your standard computer users.
There really is no opportunity for RHEL with W10 expiring.
I have my foot in both the Fedora and Windows pool. This is what I see happening.
- w10 users just gets a good antivirus and ignore
the end of life
they upgrade to W11, if they can.
they buy a new computer that meets W11's
asinine hardware requirements
- they install Tiny-11, which is a stripped
W11 and I highly recommend it (get around the hardware requirements, the spyware accounts, remove tons of M$ trash)
- they have me install Fedora on their old equipment
Here is the thing. Fedora is vastly superior to Windows in technology, security, and quality.
Fedora is easier to use than Windows (not gnome). This was not the case in the far past but not for a lot of years. I install MATE on my low skill users. I recommend MATE, Xfce, KDE.
Windows has all their favorite apps: M$ Office, Adobe stuff, Quick Books, Family Tree Maker, Turbo Tax, etc.. This is Fedora's only downfall the typically deal killer.
Fedora has Wine, but Wine is Alpha code at best. Most Windows apps do not run in it.
But Fedora also has qemu-kvm, which runs Windows really well, but virtual machine are typically over the standard users heads. It is confusing for them (not anyone on this mail list though.)
My two cents. -T
-- _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On 1/12/25 1:41 PM, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
Hi Todd,
The suggestion came from my personal experience. I use RHEL as my personal/work desktop workstation. After moving to RHEL 9, I boot to Windows 10 twice yearly, only to check for updates. I never miss Windows because most of today's apps are available on DNF, Flatpak, or the Browser. I have used Fedora for 2 years because I was okay with formatting once every 6 months. I moved to RHEL after work (at home) became more hectic, and I did not want any more distractions.
Thanks
Lee
Hi Lee,
I do not blame you.
The work I do on my Linux customers is mainly installing, configuring, and teaching. It is quite enjoyable.
The work I do on my Windows customers is endless system issues. I am good at it, but it is no fun at all.
I would not have a job if not for Windows poor quality.
Switching to Linux, you do have to "learn something new", which frustrated a lot of my customers to no end. Linux usually has alternate ways around those popular Windows only packages. Usually.
-T
On Sun, 2025-01-12 at 14:11 -0800, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
The work I do on my Linux customers is mainly installing, configuring, and teaching. It is quite enjoyable.
The work I do on my Windows customers is endless system issues. I am good at it, but it is no fun at all.
I would not have a job if not for Windows poor quality.
Switching to Linux, you do have to "learn something new", which frustrated a lot of my customers to no end. Linux usually has alternate ways around those popular Windows only packages. Usually.
The common retort "you have to learn a new way of doing things" if you leave Windows to use Linux gets me. Windows constantly makes people have to learn a new way of doing things, and people pay for that with time and effort, and real money.
On 1/12/25 8:30 PM, Tim via users wrote:
Switching to Linux, you do have to "learn something new", which frustrated a lot of my customers to no end. Linux usually has alternate ways around those popular Windows only packages. Usually.
The common retort "you have to learn a new way of doing things" if you leave Windows to use Linux gets me. Windows constantly makes people have to learn a new way of doing things, and people pay for that with time and effort, and real money.
Ya, no fooling. As soon as M$ gets their OS fairly stable (well for M$), they start over. It is like someone broke into your house and re arranged all your furniture.
I have a Fedroa server at a customer site that is maybe ten or fifteen years old. I have never upgraded it because one of their mission critical pieces of software is such a house of cards, I do not dare change anything. I can not tell the difference unless I ask the operating system what it is. It is pretty easy at a glance with Windows.
Open Shell get you around a lot of the M$ menu nonsense.
So here is the thing, when I set up a new computer -- be it Windows or Linux -- I create desktop and task bar icons of the programs the user wants to run. The user never goes into the menus. And they are happy.
Tim:
The common retort "you have to learn a new way of doing things" if you leave Windows to use Linux gets me. Windows constantly makes people have to learn a new way of doing things, and people pay for that with time and effort, and real money.
ToddAndMargo:
Ya, no fooling. As soon as M$ gets their OS fairly stable (well for M$), they start over. It is like someone broke into your house and re arranged all your furniture.
And ripped the arms off the chairs and glued them back on upside down... People go on courses to learn Word, but it's different, TOO different, from the version they have at work and home. So they only use it like an electric typewriter.
If you use your computer to type, read email, browse, you can do that on any system without much pain in the few minutes it takes to find the differences between them. What happens with downloads becomes a mystery to many, no matter what system, too.
I have a Fedroa server at a customer site that is maybe ten or fifteen years old. I have never upgraded it because one of their mission critical pieces of software is such a house of cards, I do not dare change anything. I can not tell the difference unless I ask the operating system what it is. It is pretty easy at a glance with Windows.
I left my file server / test webserver / mail server running on an out- of-date release for many years. It's only internal, it did it's job just as well as when it was new.
So here is the thing, when I set up a new computer -- be it Windows or Linux -- I create desktop and task bar icons of the programs the user wants to run. The user never goes into the menus. And they are happy.
I quite like the (old) Gnome menus. They're categorised mostly sensibly, other than putting Evolution into office rather than internet (but I add it there). They do suffer from the problem that any OS has, with various program names giving no clue to what they do (a PDF reader called evince, for instance).
On 1/13/25 12:16 AM, Tim via users wrote:
I quite like the (old) Gnome menus.
Take a look at MATE https://fedoraproject.org/spins/mate
Just simple. And gets the job done
Tim via users wrote:
I quite like the (old) Gnome menus.
ToddAndMargo:
Take a look at MATE https://fedoraproject.org/spins/mate
Just simple. And gets the job done
Yes, it's what I've been using for many years. It's so close to being the old Gnome, that it's virtually the same. And it's not just the simpleness of how it looks, it doesn't place big demands on the OS.
The fancier ones were too much of a drain on resources. And if you were trying to break into the office desktop market, having a release that requires an expensive graphic card just ain't gonna fly.
I've put Mint on a few people's PCs when I've been asked to replace Windows with something that doesn't drive them nuts. They'd heard of it, heard good things, so I've done that. I've shown them my system, with Fedora or CentOS running Mate and asked if they'd like something the same, and set Mint up with the same kind of desktop.
I can't stand the usual Ubuntu install. I can't find where they've hidden things. A friend using it can't multitask, he can't swap between browser and something else (he closes the browser to find the desktop to start something, then closes that to find the desktop to restart the browser), so I wouldn't call it idiot-friendly. And if you went looking for answers on their forum, it was always the blind leading the blind. Trying to do updates was confusing. Which program was the updater? What's this package manager do? Why won't it update Firefox? (They, Ubuntu, had blocked Firefox from being updated, you had to force it, and had to find out how to do that.)
So just about any OS has its stupidities in design. And that's why they invented Mac, as another friend would say... I find various Mac users to be the most rudimentary of computer literate. Oh it can't do this, so they make no attempt to try. I tried telling one that they could just drag and drop a file into something to use it, only for them to tell me that "it isn't Windows," completely oblivious to really being the Mac that pioneered drag-n-drop (I'm deliberately saying pioneered rather than invented - they really spread the technique, I'm not sure who really invented it).
On 1/13/25 3:46 AM, Tim via users wrote:
Tim via users wrote:
I quite like the (old) Gnome menus.
ToddAndMargo:
Take a look at MATE https://fedoraproject.org/spins/mate
Just simple. And gets the job done
Yes, it's what I've been using for many years. It's so close to being the old Gnome, that it's virtually the same. And it's not just the simpleness of how it looks, it doesn't place big demands on the OS.
The fancier ones were too much of a drain on resources. And if you were trying to break into the office desktop market, having a release that requires an expensive graphic card just ain't gonna fly.
I've put Mint on a few people's PCs when I've been asked to replace Windows with something that doesn't drive them nuts. They'd heard of it, heard good things, so I've done that. I've shown them my system, with Fedora or CentOS running Mate and asked if they'd like something the same, and set Mint up with the same kind of desktop.
I can't stand the usual Ubuntu install. I can't find where they've hidden things. A friend using it can't multitask, he can't swap between browser and something else (he closes the browser to find the desktop to start something, then closes that to find the desktop to restart the browser), so I wouldn't call it idiot-friendly. And if you went looking for answers on their forum, it was always the blind leading the blind. Trying to do updates was confusing. Which program was the updater? What's this package manager do? Why won't it update Firefox? (They, Ubuntu, had blocked Firefox from being updated, you had to force it, and had to find out how to do that.)
So just about any OS has its stupidities in design. And that's why they invented Mac, as another friend would say... I find various Mac users to be the most rudimentary of computer literate. Oh it can't do this, so they make no attempt to try. I tried telling one that they could just drag and drop a file into something to use it, only for them to tell me that "it isn't Windows," completely oblivious to really being the Mac that pioneered drag-n-drop (I'm deliberately saying pioneered rather than invented - they really spread the technique, I'm not sure who really invented it).
1+ Well stated!!!
Oh and on the Mac front. Virtually every user I have helped I have had to show them how to restart and shut down their computer and how to actuality exit their programs.
A tablet would do them much better than a $3000 computer
Hi,
I apologize for the slip. I have been using Fedora Desktops/CentOS Servers since 2009. My boss and some staff sometimes insisted on Ubuntu. In 2019, I switched to RHEL with version 8 and then to version 9. After going to 9, I have used RHEL exclusively. I have been using the RHEL Developer login for my home office. I want to use a license sometime soon.
Thanks
----- Lee
On Mon, Jan 13, 2025 at 3:11 AM Lee Thomas Stephen lee.iitb@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Todd,
The suggestion came from my personal experience. I use RHEL as my personal/work desktop workstation. After moving to RHEL 9, I boot to Windows 10 twice yearly, only to check for updates. I never miss Windows because most of today's apps are available on DNF, Flatpak, or the Browser. I have used Fedora for 2 years because I was okay with formatting once every 6 months. I moved to RHEL after work (at home) became more hectic, and I did not want any more distractions.
Thanks
Lee
On Sun, Jan 12, 2025 at 8:37 AM ToddAndMargo via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 1/11/25 4:23 AM, Lee Thomas Stephen wrote:
Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon. Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro. Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
Thanks,
Lee
Hi Lee,
Kaisen: constant change
RHEL is wonderful if you have an "appliance" application. Appliance, meaning "set and forget". Nothing must ever change. RHEL is AWFUL for a Kaisen situation: upgrade, new features etc.
Fedroa wonderful for Kaisen, which would be almost all of your standard computer users.
There really is no opportunity for RHEL with W10 expiring.
I have my foot in both the Fedora and Windows pool. This is what I see happening.
- w10 users just gets a good antivirus and ignore
the end of life
they upgrade to W11, if they can.
they buy a new computer that meets W11's
asinine hardware requirements
- they install Tiny-11, which is a stripped
W11 and I highly recommend it (get around the hardware requirements, the spyware accounts, remove tons of M$ trash)
- they have me install Fedora on their old equipment
Here is the thing. Fedora is vastly superior to Windows in technology, security, and quality.
Fedora is easier to use than Windows (not gnome). This was not the case in the far past but not for a lot of years. I install MATE on my low skill users. I recommend MATE, Xfce, KDE.
Windows has all their favorite apps: M$ Office, Adobe stuff, Quick Books, Family Tree Maker, Turbo Tax, etc.. This is Fedora's only downfall the typically deal killer.
Fedora has Wine, but Wine is Alpha code at best. Most Windows apps do not run in it.
But Fedora also has qemu-kvm, which runs Windows really well, but virtual machine are typically over the standard users heads. It is confusing for them (not anyone on this mail list though.)
My two cents. -T
-- _______________________________________________ users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025, 09:24 Lee Thomas Stephen, lee.iitb@gmail.com wrote:
Hi All and RedHatters,
Windows 10 is going to be End of Life soon.
Win10 pro, yes, October 2025.
However Win10 LTSC 2021 will receive security fixes until Jan2027. And Win10 IoT until 2032.
You can also install 0patch (free for home/non commercial use) and get security hotfixes until 2030.
More info on 0patch below. They don't openly admit of taking Microsoft patches for Win10 iot and repackaging them for delivery thru the 0patch agent but I suspect that's precisely what they may do in the vast majority of bugs and exploits discovered and officially patched my MSFT. Others they patch on their own (eg they still provide hot fixes to this day for Win7)
https://www.pcmag.com/explainers/0patch-explained-how-it-works-and-what-it-m...
It costs USD $28/EUR25 per machine per year, which is less costly than the Microsoft Extended support (ESU) which has a price of $61 the first year, $122 the second and $244 for the third year and that's it.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/cant-quit-windows-10-microsoft-will-charge-for...
Home users will only get a single year of ESU for $30.
Which makes 0patch even more enticing https://blog.0patch.com/2024/06/long-live-windows-10-with-0patch.html
Just my $0.02 FC
Canonical is promoting Ubuntu Pro.
Does IBM have any plans for Red Hat to take advantage of this opportunity? I post this here as I see many people with @redhat.com frequenting here.
Thanks,
Lee
users mailing list -- users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to users-leave@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/users@lists.fedoraproject.org Do not reply to spam, report it: https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/new_issue
On Mon, 2025-01-13 at 15:01 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
It costs USD $28/EUR25 per machine per year, which is less costly than the Microsoft Extended support (ESU) which has a price of $61 the first year, $122 the second and $244 for the third year and that's it.
!?>!?!
They release something that's flawed, seriously flawed, they never get it right, and want you to pay more to receive things that attempt to fix it into the condition that it should have been in the first place!?
On Mon, Jan 13, 2025, 23:04 Tim via users users@lists.fedoraproject.org wrote:
On Mon, 2025-01-13 at 15:01 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
It costs USD $28/EUR25 per machine per year, which is less costly than the Microsoft Extended support (ESU) which has a price of $61 the first year, $122 the second and $244 for the third year and that's it.
!?>!?!
They release something that's flawed, seriously flawed, they never get it right, and want you to pay more to receive things that attempt to fix it into the condition that it should have been in the first place!?
They want you to move to Windows 11
They make you pay a penalty for being stubborn and having to keep releasing win10 security fixes three more years.
Not very different from Java vendors charging for support to those who insist on still running Java 8 instead of moving to newer releases.
In the real world everything has a cost. And keeping programmers fixing old code instead of working on the latest version is a burden.
FC
On Mon, 2025-01-13 at 23:45 -0300, Fernando Cassia wrote:
They make you pay a penalty for being stubborn and having to keep releasing win10 security fixes three more years.
Not very different from Java vendors charging for support to those who insist on still running Java 8 instead of moving to newer releases.
In the real world everything has a cost. And keeping programmers fixing old code instead of working on the latest version is a burden.
How about they get it right, in the first place?! Imagine car manufacturers getting away with non-working brakes, and you'll just put up with it until you buy the next model! They're forced to get it right, at their expense.
I'm reminded of a scene from one of the Bond films from 1997, Tomorrow Never Dies. The supervillain is having a teleconference with his lackeys:
Supervillain: Are we ready to release our new software?
Lackey: Yes sir, as requested it's full of bugs, which means people will be forced to upgrade for years.
Supervillain: Outstanding!
I reckon the author was having his revenge in writing that scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm4Rll9axkQ
On 1/13/25 5:44 PM, Tim via users wrote:
!?>!?!
They release something that's flawed, seriously flawed, they never get it right, and want you to pay more to receive things that attempt to fix it into the condition that it should have been in the first place!?
Well stated.
The problem is that it does not matter how much better or easier to use Fedora is, users will not move to Fedora until the popular apps they like support Fedora directly. They do not want substitute apps the have to relearn.
And Wine is Alpha code at best.
On Mon, 2025-01-13 at 20:56 -0800, ToddAndMargo via users wrote:
The problem is that it does not matter how much better or easier to use Fedora is, users will not move to Fedora until the popular apps they like support Fedora directly. They do not want substitute apps the have to relearn.
Yes, I've come across that.
-- I want an OS that doesn't crash, wreck my data, and waste my time and money. -- Sure, you could us *ix, instead. -- Can I still run my Windows software on it? -- You do realise it was mostly *that* software that did the crashing?
On 1/14/25 3:31 AM, Tim via users wrote:
-- Can I still run my Windows software on it? -- You do realise it was mostly*that* software that did the crashing?
"That" software is no more buggy with their Linux offerings than it is on Windows offering.
The problem is the unstable platform (Win) that those programs are running on.
Tim:
-- Can I still run my Windows software on it? -- You do realise it was mostly*that* software that did the crashing?
ToddAndMargo:
"That" software is no more buggy with their Linux offerings than it is on Windows offering.
The problem is the unstable platform (Win) that those programs are running on.
Well, there is that. But my take has always been that it's usually the software you're using that crashes (browser, word processor, spreadsheet, etc), and the OS may or may not fail to handle it.
What you were actually trying to do (use an app) has gone tits up, and destroyed hours of work (hence why I save things very often while working on them). And using that same software on something else doesn't really help you avoid that issue.
From my point of view, the OS should *never* fail. Everything depends on it. It should do proper error handling. And OS creators should spend much more effort on getting it right. They should, also, spend far less time re-inventing the wheel, keeping the OS much more stable, small, and easier to maintain, adding *NEW* things as external functions that are not directly part of the OS.
And buffer overflow, anyone? The bane of virtually every Windows- related screw-up and exploit. It's long past time that programmers learnt how to handle input and output properly, and compilers should probably be removing functions that are particularly vulnerable to it.
There's no way that receiving more input than expected ought to do anything more than get truncated and completely disappear, then the function return an error. It's inexcusable that the overflow can actually do something.
On 1/18/25 11:16 PM, Tim via users wrote:
From my point of view, the OS should*never* fail. Everything depends on it. It should do proper error handling. And OS creators should spend much more effort on getting it right. They should, also, spend far less time re-inventing the wheel, keeping the OS much more stable, small, and easier to maintain, adding*NEW* things as external functions that are not directly part of the OS.
Well stated.
-
DJ Delorie -
Fernando Cassia -
Jonathan Billings -
Lee Thomas Stephen -
Patrick O'Callaghan -
Samuel Sieb -
Stephen Morris -
Tim -
ToddAndMargo