Is there a standard for how multi-axis trackballs (spaceballs) interact with X? Are they common enough to "just work" now or is it the usual proprietary-hardware-nightmare still?
The common trackball seems to have the ball, some scrollwheel replacement and a bunch of buttons. It would be nice to be able to *rotate* the ball, or push it in various directions, etc. But only if there's a sane mapping to X events.
On 07/05/2011 02:01 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
Is there a standard for how multi-axis trackballs (spaceballs) interact with X? Are they common enough to "just work" now or is it the usual proprietary-hardware-nightmare still?
"They've gone.......plaid! Prepare for ludicrous speed!" (sorry, couldn't resist a Mel Brooks plug)
The common trackball seems to have the ball, some scrollwheel replacement and a bunch of buttons. It would be nice to be able to *rotate* the ball, or push it in various directions, etc. But only if there's a sane mapping to X events.
I've never seen a standard mapping for them. They are pretty open to interpretation so you may have a problem finding a consensus.
I'd bring up xevent or whatever and push/pull/poke/twist, take note of what events it generates and do your own thing. Perhaps THAT would become the standard. We have to start somewhere, your idea may be the start of it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, C2 Hosting ricks@nerd.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 22643734 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - grasshopotomaus: A creature that can leap to tremendous heights... - - ...once. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Stevens ricks@nerd.com writes:
I'd bring up xevent or whatever and push/pull/poke/twist, take note of what events it generates and do your own thing.
At this point, I'm still wondering if ANYTHING would show up in xevent :-)
I know XInput can handle a larger numbers of buttons. Can it handle more than two motion channels? I know they won't map to the X cursor's X,Y location, but still, if that's what the spaceball is producing...
On 07/05/2011 02:39 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
Rick Stevens ricks@nerd.com writes:
I'd bring up xevent or whatever and push/pull/poke/twist, take note of what events it generates and do your own thing.
At this point, I'm still wondering if ANYTHING would show up in xevent :-)
I know XInput can handle a larger numbers of buttons. Can it handle more than two motion channels? I know they won't map to the X cursor's X,Y location, but still, if that's what the spaceball is producing...
As I said, try it and see. You might want to try xev. It shows motion events and the lot. You should be able to get anything the beastie spits out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, C2 Hosting ricks@nerd.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2 ICQ: 22643734 Yahoo: origrps2 - - - - I'm afraid my karma just ran over your dogma - ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Stevens ricks@nerd.com writes:
As I said, try it and see.
They're too expensive to "just try it", hence wanting to see if someone else has already tried it and had some info on how well X interacted with the hardware, and if there was a standard way to talk to it from software.
You might want to try xev.
I know about xev, thanks.
On 07/05/2011 09:01 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
Is there a standard for how multi-axis trackballs (spaceballs) interact with X? Are they common enough to "just work" now or is it the usual proprietary-hardware-nightmare still?
axis are 'x' and 'y'. no 'z', or other direction.
The common trackball seems to have the ball, some scrollwheel replacement and a bunch of buttons and portions of angle. It would be nice to be able to *rotate* the ball, or push it in various directions, etc. But only if there's a sane mapping to X events.
*roll* would be a better description than 'rotate'.
with 'optical' trackballs, you will note that they are of two colors, most being red with black dots.
there are ir leds emitting at surface of balls and ir detectors receiving reflections from ball surface.
the arrangement of leds and detectors are such that, when track ball is rolled, the movement can be determined and passed to circuitry that can determine 'x' - 'y' movement.
output from this circuitry is _pure_ 'x' - 'y' and ratio determines amount of angular movement, same as with a standard mouse.
i have been using a Logitech TrackMan Marble m/n T-CH11, 3 button thumb marble, with ps/2 connector, that i purchased about 6 months after they where first released.
from day one of use, i have never had a problem using it and have noted that it has always been listed as a "PS/2 Logitech Mouse".
from which i can conclude that there is nothing really special in signal output or the drivers used.
even when X used a config file for keyboard, monitor, video card, mouse, etc, there has never been anything special in configuration.
so, long story short, if you want a trackball mouse, i recommend that you get a Logitech 'thumb marble' mouse.
you should have no problems using it and linux will see it and install the proper driver.
advantages that i have found with my 'space ball' is that it is convent, comfortable, fast, easy to use, and i can still have a messy desktop.
i do recommend that you get a small stiff bristle brush to keep the 3 'bearing points' clean because they will build up with dust and slow down ball movement.
hth.
On 07/06/2011 03:06 AM, g wrote: <>
there are ir leds emitting at surface of balls and ir detectors receiving reflections from ball surface.
in addition, there are some trackball mice that use a roller bar, ie, like a standard mouse. i do not recommend them. they do not track well.
you will also find 'palm ball' types, but they are not as convent to use as a 'thumb ball'. i had one and gave it away.
g geleem@bellsouth.net writes:
It would be nice to be able to *rotate* the ball, or push it in various directions, etc. But only if there's a sane mapping to X events.
*roll* would be a better description than 'rotate'.
Not at all, since I'm talking about spaceballs, not trackballs.
A spaceball can sense not only the usual X/Y rolling motion that a trackball supports, but it can also sense rotation (CW/CCW) and pressure (think "clicking" the ball itself, in various directions (X/Y/Z)).
On 07/06/2011 04:22 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: <>
Not at all, since I'm talking about spaceballs, not trackballs.
ok. so how about a link to who makes 'spaceballs'.
A spaceball can sense not only the usual X/Y rolling motion that a trackball supports, but it can also sense rotation (CW/CCW) and pressure (think "clicking" the ball itself, in various directions (X/Y/Z)).
cw/ccw rotation can very well be detected as standard trackball x/y.
'z' could be from a strain gauge, or thru leverage.
for sure, cw/ccw and x/y/z will need special drivers.
have you checked oem site to see just what they reveal?
On 07/06/2011 05:04 AM, g wrote:
On 07/06/2011 04:22 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: <>
Not at all, since I'm talking about spaceballs, not trackballs.
ok. so how about a link to who makes 'spaceballs'.
well, not to wait for a reply, a quick google search provided some answers.
Logitech's subsidiary, 3Dconnexion, is a maker of '3d' mice, which i was aware of, but not aware of use of term 'spaceball'.
checking 3Dconnexion site;
led to;
http://www.3dconnexion.com/service/drivers.html
where a search of product and os shows that not all of the 3d mice are linux compatible.
so if you are interested in a 3d mouse, which really is not a *ball*, even tho called such, you will need to check second link to see which 3d mice have linux drivers.
hth.
On 07/06/2011 07:31 AM, g wrote:
so if you are interested in a 3d mouse, which really is not a *ball*, even tho called such,
Earlier DLR/3DConnexion "space mouses" looked like balls on a pole.
Ca. 6-8 cms/2-3 inches in diameter, looking a bit like an oversized "golfball on a tee on a display-board".
see http://www.dlr.de/rm/en/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-3808/6234_read-8998/
An image of the space mouse/ball can be found on the left side on the center of the page. IIRC, earlier versions were larger and had a rectangular box underneath the ball.
Colloquially, they often were called "space balls", though the article tells the DLR initially had called the device "Control Ball".
Ralf
On 07/06/2011 06:22 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
ggeleem@bellsouth.net writes:
It would be nice to be able to *rotate* the ball, or push it in various directions, etc. But only if there's a sane mapping to X events.
*roll* would be a better description than 'rotate'.
Not at all, since I'm talking about spaceballs, not trackballs.
A spaceball can sense not only the usual X/Y rolling motion that a trackball supports, but it can also sense rotation (CW/CCW) and pressure (think "clicking" the ball itself, in various directions (X/Y/Z)).
The terminology former co-workers of mine used, who used to operate such a device, was that being used in flight dynamics/robotics/3D/CAD: pitch, roll, yaw
Wrt. your original question, I don't know the answer. At least, with the fairly common Magellan/SpacePilot/SpaceExplorer/SpaceNavigator family, though there is some limited linux support, I gather it's still it's all proprietary/mostly closed-source [1].
May-be you should ask the vendor/manufacturer (in case of the SpaceNavigator 3dconnexion.{de,com})?
Ralf
[1] For further reading http://www.linux.com/archive/feed/60918 seems to be a good start.
Coming into this discussion a bit late...
We (my work) also refer to these devices as SpaceBalls as they used to have a ball, and every axis is controlled by a strain gage. The original ones were serial but my current HP SpacePilot is USB based and has a knob instead of a ball.
I would be willing to test if anyone would like (Shhh... Don't tell anyone, I dual boot my work laptop to Fedora :) I saw some references to xevent or xev.
Thanks, Richard
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DJ Delorie -
g -
Ralf Corsepius -
Richard Shaw -
Rick Stevens