(07:56:59 PM) tw2113: MichaelBeckwith | ||
(07:57:00 PM) JonRob: JonRob here | ||
(07:57:04 PM) ricky: RickyZhou | ||
(07:57:08 PM) spevack: MaxSpevack | ||
(07:57:16 PM) giarc_w: CraigThomas | ||
(07:57:20 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: ping | ||
(07:57:50 PM) juank_prada: JuanCamiloPrada | ||
(07:57:55 PM) ivazquez: IgnacioVazquezAbrams | ||
(07:58:33 PM) spevack: I'm gonna wait a minute or two for mmcgrath, | ||
since it's important that he be here also. Then we'll get started. | ||
(07:58:47 PM) epkphoto [n=epkphoto@129.21.233.244] entered the room. | ||
(07:58:51 PM) ricky: glezos: Are you around? | ||
(07:58:56 PM) spevack: thank you all for being here | ||
(07:58:58 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: pong | ||
(07:59:08 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: thank _you_ | ||
(07:59:19 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: didn't want to start without you | ||
(07:59:19 PM) ***ricky hopes that glezos will be able to help with | ||
some l10n decisions :-) | ||
(07:59:19 PM) glezos: ricky: I'm here | ||
(07:59:20 PM) spevack: ok. so let's roll... | ||
(07:59:22 PM) ricky: Ah, great. | ||
(07:59:25 PM) glezos: DimitrisGlezo | ||
(07:59:26 PM) glezos: s | ||
(07:59:30 PM) spevack: TOPIC 1: Current status of things, as related | ||
to the websites team and F9 | ||
(07:59:35 PM) spevack: i'll start with a few words | ||
(08:00:07 PM) spevack: I've been a *customer* of the Fedoraw Websites | ||
team for a while, but never really had too much insight into how it | ||
all happens myself. It always Just Happens, so let's talk about it, | ||
and lift the curtain from my eyes a bit too. | ||
(08:00:18 PM) spevack: What are the things that are coming together here for F9? | ||
(08:00:27 PM) spevack: I know we update the content on the non-wiki pages. | ||
(08:00:29 PM) spevack: what else? | ||
(08:00:35 PM) spevack: who's got the knowledge here to tell me what's going on | ||
(08:00:48 PM) mmcgrath: well I do. | ||
(08:01:02 PM) mmcgrath: so basically some things just happen (mostly | ||
thanks to ricky's self direction) | ||
(08:01:21 PM) mmcgrath: but there's lots of stuff that people want to | ||
have happen and its just not come together as a team yet. | ||
(08:01:26 PM) mmcgrath: So things for F9 are coming along. | ||
(08:01:35 PM) mmcgrath: I'm not sure if stuff is frozen for the | ||
translations team yet. | ||
(08:02:05 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: are you wanting to know about actual | ||
workflow? Or just a higher level view? | ||
(08:02:15 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: i want to talk about a few things. | ||
(08:02:35 PM) spevack: first, i want to talk specifically about F9 | ||
website content, and make sure that we're on target with whatever is | ||
already in the pipeline | ||
(08:02:44 PM) spevack: then, i want to raise the discussion up a level | ||
(08:02:46 PM) mmcgrath: ah, so there's really 3 aspects to our websites. | ||
(08:03:05 PM) mmcgrath: at the base layer is the infrastructure team. | ||
The proxy servers, caching ,etc. | ||
(08:03:08 PM) spevack: and understand the general processes we go | ||
through during non-release time, and then as we coordinate the | ||
websites around a release. | ||
(08:03:23 PM) spevack: right | ||
(08:03:29 PM) mmcgrath: Right above that is the code that creates our | ||
websites (typically a mix of infrastructure people and websites) and | ||
above that is the look and feel of the site. Which is typically the | ||
websites team. | ||
(08:03:34 PM) jmbuser [n=jmbuser@195.229.24.83] entered the room. | ||
(08:03:43 PM) spevack: right. | ||
(08:03:47 PM) mmcgrath: So for this release I've requested a list of | ||
all the links we're going to give out in press releases and stuff. | ||
(08:03:55 PM) ricky: spevack: The process during non-release doesn't | ||
exist, and part of that is that we don't have a great process to | ||
handle l10n yet. | ||
(08:03:57 PM) mmcgrath: I'll be making sure those are cached in | ||
memory. But thats not really "website stuff" | ||
(08:04:07 PM) ricky: So as I mentioned, I'm always afraid that making | ||
a single change will bring translations out of sync. | ||
(08:04:10 PM) spevack: it's the interface of infrastructure and web. | ||
(08:04:44 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: glezos: do we have a deadline for when | ||
we need to string freeze the website? | ||
(08:04:44 PM) ivazquez: The non-release process is "someone suggests a | ||
change and someone else implements it". | ||
(08:04:44 PM) spevack: ok, so still mmcgrath, that's one need that you | ||
have. has that list been provided to you? | ||
(08:04:47 PM) ivazquez: It's duct tape and chewing gum. | ||
(08:04:49 PM) glezos: ricky: I think it's better to have correct | ||
information on the website rather than having 100% translations of | ||
faulty information. | ||
(08:04:56 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: there's actually a meeting about it | ||
later this week with releng, marketing, etc. | ||
(08:05:09 PM) spevack: ok. | ||
(08:05:21 PM) spevack: So item 1 -- the list of links and content that | ||
are most important, and making sure we can serve those up under heavy | ||
traffic. | ||
(08:05:24 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: looking | ||
(08:05:30 PM) ricky: glezos: The way I see it, it's not so much about | ||
faulty information as it is about new information | ||
(08:05:41 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: juding by the content volume I'd say | ||
4-5 days translation period. | ||
(08:05:56 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: and really thats not a websites | ||
concern. They may put some of that content up, and design what it | ||
looks like but its more releng and marketing to decide what canonical | ||
links to give out. | ||
(08:06:26 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: fair enough... so let's assume for a | ||
moment, from the perspective of this meeting, that the list exists. | ||
(08:06:28 PM) mmcgrath: just because its releng and marketing that | ||
actually do the releases. | ||
(08:06:30 PM) mmcgrath: <nod> | ||
(08:06:33 PM) spevack: What *is* important to Websites Team is the | ||
*content* on those pages. | ||
(08:06:37 PM) glezos: ricky: if it's a whole page or sections it's | ||
less of a problem than little changes here and there. So the whole | ||
website will look ok except one page, which will gradually get more | ||
translations. | ||
(08:06:47 PM) mmcgrath: AFAIK the F9 content is in good shape, its | ||
just not that different from the F8 content. | ||
(08:07:14 PM) spevack: I assume we will be updating the get-fedora and | ||
home pages. | ||
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: numbers and code names change. | ||
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: <nod> | ||
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: do we have the F9 site up somewhere to | ||
look at right now? | ||
(08:07:20 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: http://publictest10.fedoraproject.org/ | ||
(08:07:31 PM) giarc_w: we have verify page we want up for f9 as well | ||
(lots or requests for that post f8 launch) | ||
(08:07:36 PM) ricky: Still need to add jigdo links on get-fedora. | ||
(08:07:39 PM) giarc_w: *of | ||
(08:07:51 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: thanks. | ||
(08:07:56 PM) spevack: ok... so I ask all of you now... are there any | ||
big things needed for the immediate release of F9 that we need to | ||
handle in this meeting, or shall we move to the next topic? | ||
(08:08:13 PM) ricky: glezos: That's probably the right priority to go | ||
with, but a set process would definitely make it easier on us :) | ||
(08:08:21 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: AFAIK, not for F9 | ||
(08:08:54 PM) tw2113: screenshots? | ||
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: no big things anyway | ||
(08:08:56 PM) tw2113: i noticed we still have the old ones | ||
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: tw2113: ahh, good catch. | ||
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: who provided those last time? | ||
(08:08:56 PM) ricky: tw2113: Good point, those were kind of | ||
last-minute for F8. Is most of the final artwork in rawhide yet? | ||
(08:08:56 PM) ivazquez: It is. | ||
(08:09:01 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: I did, day of the release, I think :) | ||
(08:09:03 PM) tw2113: i believe all the final artwork is in | ||
(08:09:19 PM) ***tw2113 has his desktop screenshot up on the site | ||
(08:09:21 PM) spevack: ok, so if the world isn't burning down for F9, | ||
then I think we can trust that the websites content for this release | ||
is pretty much good to go, and move the conversation to a larger | ||
topic. | ||
(08:09:21 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: hah, yeah lets make sure to get those | ||
ahead of time. | ||
(08:09:21 PM) jmbuser left the room ("Leaving"). | ||
(08:09:39 PM) ***ivazquez was there when halfline requested the wave | ||
artwork for inclusion | ||
(08:09:41 PM) tw2113: i'll provide a default desktop screenshot again | ||
if you want | ||
(08:09:56 PM) spevack: I'm going to say what I think is important, and | ||
then I'd like some of you guys to tell me what you think is important. | ||
(08:10:07 PM) spevack: From my point of view, overall, the Fedora | ||
Websites team needs to do a few things: | ||
(08:10:12 PM) ricky: Cool, then who should I contact about getting | ||
those? I should still remember the method that I used (not Xnest, but | ||
Xephyr) | ||
(08:10:44 PM) tw2113: i'll work with you on it tonight and tomorrow ricky | ||
(08:10:48 PM) ricky: tw2113: OK, thanks | ||
(08:11:12 PM) spevack: 1) Have new content around the releases | ||
(08:11:51 PM) spevack: 2) Work with artwork and infrastructure to | ||
provide a service to various other parts of fedora | ||
(08:12:02 PM) spevack: 3) take ownership of the layout and look and | ||
feel for *.fedoraproject.org | ||
(08:12:21 PM) spevack: and around all three of those points | ||
(08:12:27 PM) iWolf [n=jft@fedora/iWolf] entered the room. | ||
(08:12:38 PM) spevack: is the question of what workflow and processes | ||
we have, and what workflow and processes we need to help track things, | ||
make things more efficient, etc. | ||
(08:13:01 PM) ***mmcgrath agrees on those 3 points. | ||
(08:13:03 PM) spevack: what do you guys think? There was a lot of | ||
talk on the mailing list, it seemed, about the larger vision that | ||
Fedora Websites needs to have | ||
(08:13:07 PM) ***spevack will shut up and listen now | ||
(08:13:12 PM) juank_prada: spevack: from all those points its that | ||
comes the whole discussion that leads to this meeting | ||
(08:13:48 PM) tw2113: i'm no exception, but we have a lot of people | ||
throwing ideas around, but no one creating actual visuals of those | ||
ideas | ||
(08:13:51 PM) spevack: ricky: i have a question for you. | ||
(08:13:58 PM) mmcgrath: Right now there's a workflow for making | ||
changes. But not a workflow for really... accepting what changes get | ||
made. | ||
(08:14:30 PM) giarc_w: right, there is no peer review or 'approval', | ||
changes just in or they don't | ||
(08:14:47 PM) mmcgrath: which is a common problem in Fedora for teams. | ||
Actual decision making is fuzzy. | ||
(08:15:22 PM) juank_prada: the problem comes when those new ideas are | ||
discarded because of the lack of that review or approval | ||
(08:15:23 PM) ***JonRob brb, it sounds like my wall is collapsing :S | ||
(08:15:31 PM) spevack: one of the things that i like about Fedora | ||
Websites is its speed and flexibility | ||
(08:15:32 PM) tw2113: mentally, i'd really like to get some loose ends | ||
on my side of things tied up, and then actually start actively helping | ||
create on the website team | ||
(08:15:35 PM) spevack: if i want a change made to redhat.com, it takes | ||
me a week. | ||
(08:15:44 PM) juank_prada: then the website hangs for a long time | ||
unchanged with the same content and makes it almost useless | ||
(08:15:45 PM) spevack: if i want a change made to fedoraproject.org, | ||
it is usually done in a few hours. | ||
(08:16:06 PM) tw2113: how many people do we have actually making the | ||
changes spevack ? | ||
(08:16:11 PM) spevack: i don't know | ||
(08:16:11 PM) giarc_w: that speed is nice and important to keep i think | ||
(08:16:31 PM) spevack: whenever i need something done, I ask ricky | ||
(08:16:35 PM) ***mmcgrath looks at how many people can access it. | ||
(08:16:50 PM) ivazquez: I think we have only about 3 people making changes. | ||
(08:16:59 PM) giarc_w: there are a small handful who actually commit | ||
content changes | ||
(08:17:01 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: 38 | ||
(08:17:04 PM) ivazquez: Excluding tfx, of course. | ||
(08:17:05 PM) tw2113: this may just be my naivety overall, but the two | ||
people who i know actually making changes are ricky and mmcgrath | ||
(08:17:13 PM) tw2113: well, paul too | ||
(08:17:14 PM) mmcgrath: So all of these people have access to make | ||
changes to the web. | ||
(08:17:16 PM) mmcgrath: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/dump/web | ||
(08:17:17 PM) tw2113: just remembered | ||
(08:17:23 PM) ivazquez: And myself. | ||
(08:17:25 PM) ricky: ivazquez: Good point, 37 or 36, then. | ||
(08:17:28 PM) ***mmcgrath tries not to make changes ever... has no | ||
idea what he's doing with css and html :) | ||
(08:17:31 PM) ivazquez: Although not recently. | ||
(08:18:08 PM) spevack: ok, so let me ask a simple question that can be | ||
+1 or -1'd | ||
(08:18:40 PM) spevack: Is one of the priorities of this team to "build | ||
a more formal process around editing content on *.fp.o while also not | ||
losing our flexibitiy to act quickly?" | ||
(08:18:49 PM) ricky: +1 | ||
(08:18:51 PM) giarc_w: +1 | ||
(08:18:55 PM) juank_prada: +1 | ||
(08:18:55 PM) mmcgrath: +1 | ||
(08:18:58 PM) glezos: +1 | ||
(08:19:00 PM) ivazquez: How formal? | ||
(08:19:05 PM) mmcgrath: just "more" | ||
(08:19:06 PM) spevack: ivazquez: not for me to say | ||
(08:19:15 PM) epkphoto: +1 | ||
(08:19:16 PM) ivazquez: +1 then. | ||
(08:19:16 PM) tw2113: 1+ | ||
(08:19:21 PM) tw2113: :D | ||
(08:19:21 PM) mmcgrath: something other then just "ricky and ivazquez | ||
sort of do it or they don't" | ||
(08:19:21 PM) giarc_w: right, just more, so we *have* a process | ||
(08:19:21 PM) Rasther: +1 | ||
(08:19:27 PM) juank_prada: ivazquez: at least a process because whe lack of one | ||
(08:19:46 PM) giarc_w: nothing too complex, or anything | ||
(08:20:03 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: and there's two parts to that. | ||
(08:20:12 PM) mmcgrath: 1) making changes (you or paul comes in and | ||
says "I need this) | ||
(08:20:14 PM) mmcgrath: and | ||
(08:20:17 PM) mmcgrath: 2) overhauls. | ||
(08:20:35 PM) juank_prada: i agree with mmcgrath | ||
(08:20:38 PM) mmcgrath: and its 2) I think that juank_prada has | ||
something in mind for and we've only done it one other time in the | ||
history of my being here IIRC. | ||
(08:20:51 PM) mmcgrath: and it was when we created the website as a | ||
way to avoid wiki breakdowns. | ||
(08:21:12 PM) mmcgrath: so there was no real process, I think we just | ||
went to some people like mizmo, got something together. I put some | ||
requirements on it (size wise, etc) and it just went though. | ||
(08:21:20 PM) giarc_w: overhauls seem to involve lots of other teams, | ||
art, marketing and infra so we probably really need process to handle | ||
bopth | ||
(08:21:22 PM) mmcgrath: now though we've been wanting to make all the | ||
websites look the same. | ||
(08:21:47 PM) tw2113: cohesive looks +1 | ||
(08:22:04 PM) juank_prada: but we still need to know which one is the | ||
look and feel wer are going to use... | ||
(08:22:13 PM) mmcgrath: we all want the sites to look the same | ||
(there's been a ticket open for a year now) but without the process | ||
its been a non-starter. | ||
(08:22:26 PM) ***spevack is being pulled away for about 2 mins... keep | ||
talking, i'll read backward | ||
(08:22:57 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: I believe we have went a good way | ||
towards that goal so far. I remember our websites a year ago and | ||
everything was completely different than each other. | ||
(08:23:03 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: If we already have know the look, then | ||
I don't think it needs a process - it's just a simple task. | ||
(08:23:56 PM) juank_prada: ricky: the process is still needed in order | ||
to do that overhaul to the website | ||
(08:24:08 PM) mmcgrath: well how do we get the workerbees in to | ||
actually make everything look the same then? | ||
(08:24:14 PM) giarc_w: i would agree with ricky, once we do know, but | ||
how do we decide? | ||
(08:24:19 PM) ricky: juank_prada: I was referring to the theming, not | ||
the overhaul. | ||
(08:24:21 PM) mmcgrath: well here's a question (I'll ask for a +1 or -1) | ||
(08:24:27 PM) juank_prada: ok | ||
(08:24:48 PM) mmcgrath: "We should change the look of the primary | ||
website as what we have now should be changed, even if it is just a | ||
little bit) | ||
(08:24:52 PM) ***spevack reads backwards... sorry | ||
(08:25:16 PM) mmcgrath: so +1 or -1? | ||
(08:25:18 PM) ***giarc_w does not understand the question ? | ||
(08:25:30 PM) ***juank_prada is not sure to understand either | ||
(08:25:32 PM) ivazquez: "Should" is a bit loaded. | ||
(08:25:35 PM) ricky: giarc_w: Should we change the theme on fp.o? | ||
(08:25:43 PM) mmcgrath: So what we have at http://fedoraproject.org/ | ||
is whats there. We've had people propose an overhaul to it. | ||
(08:25:55 PM) mmcgrath: do we want to leave http://fedoraproject.org/ | ||
or do we want to change it? | ||
(08:26:08 PM) ivazquez: At least "more" in the previous question had a | ||
single direction. "Should" fuzzes it too much. | ||
(08:26:08 PM) mmcgrath: because as http://fedoraproject.org/ goes, so | ||
goes the rest of our sites. | ||
(08:26:13 PM) ***tw2113 points to the recent Suse website talk | ||
(08:26:19 PM) juank_prada: the thing is an overhaul doesnt really mean | ||
that we need to change the look of the website | ||
(08:26:22 PM) spevack: ok... I have caught up. | ||
(08:26:24 PM) tw2113: the 3 button front page | ||
(08:26:36 PM) juank_prada: and thats the whole idea of CSS thing | ||
(08:26:46 PM) spevack: let me share my perspective. | ||
(08:26:47 PM) ivazquez: A better question is "If we want to change the | ||
site, do we have a definite direction we want to move in?". | ||
(08:26:56 PM) juank_prada: we can pretty much add content to the site | ||
without altering the look of it | ||
(08:27:03 PM) spevack: there are folks here who don't remember the Old | ||
Days of Fedora Website Doom | ||
(08:27:09 PM) ricky: And that's where I start to worry about translations. | ||
(08:27:14 PM) ricky: ^(content) | ||
(08:27:16 PM) spevack: we had fedora.redhat.com (which was never | ||
updated and had horrible content) | ||
(08:27:20 PM) glezos: I'm -1 for overhaul, at least until we have a | ||
thorough study on how they should look. There are some minor fixes I'd | ||
suggest, though, like decreasing the font size a bit in the menu. | ||
(08:27:24 PM) spevack: and we had fedoraproject.org, which was only the wiki. | ||
(08:27:37 PM) spevack: The "current" version of fedoraproject.org was | ||
born out of two desires by me: | ||
(08:27:51 PM) tw2113: I'm +1 for an overall as a long term goal | ||
(08:27:52 PM) spevack: 1) To kill fedora.redhat.com and remove all | ||
fedora content from Red Hat machines | ||
(08:27:53 PM) spevack: and | ||
(08:28:04 PM) spevack: 2) to have a few static pages that could sit | ||
above the wiki and provide a more professional look to our site. | ||
(08:28:09 PM) tw2113: F10 to F11 timeframe | ||
(08:28:12 PM) spevack: So... | ||
(08:28:26 PM) spevack: now we also have planet, docs, fedorahosted, etc. | ||
(08:28:39 PM) spevack: lots of other sites that are in the Fedora | ||
world, and it would be nice to get a unified look and feel there. | ||
(08:28:39 PM) glezos: spevack: +mirrors, transifex | ||
(08:28:51 PM) spevack: So that people can just realize "hey, this is a | ||
Fedora Property" | ||
(08:29:19 PM) spevack: A common look and feel, as mmcgrath says, can | ||
only come after there is a consensus of *what* that look and feel | ||
should be | ||
(08:29:24 PM) tw2113: this topic reminds me of my alma mater | ||
(08:29:32 PM) spevack: some people like really minimal websites | ||
(08:29:35 PM) tw2113: they're still in the process of updating the | ||
entire span of the website | ||
(08:29:36 PM) giarc_w: -1 to overhaul look and feel until we have at | ||
least caught up with making that 'hey, this is fedora' realization a | ||
reality | ||
(08:29:40 PM) spevack: there's a million ideas for how to do a website. | ||
(08:29:44 PM) juank_prada: spevack: in order to accomplish the idea of | ||
the static page there should be information to be displayed in it... | ||
right now the website lacks of information and all of it is being held | ||
in the wiki which makes havin fp.o a lack of resources and a domain | ||
(08:29:47 PM) tw2113: and it's been a year long process | ||
(08:29:48 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: http://mmcgrath.fedorapeople.org/rhold/ :) | ||
(08:29:49 PM) spevack: and i've been in enough meetings to realize | ||
that most of them are ratholes | ||
(08:30:27 PM) spevack: there are a few key questions, IMHO | ||
(08:30:36 PM) spevack: and all design or engineering decisions come | ||
from the answers to those questions | ||
(08:30:46 PM) spevack: 1) what information do we want to give? | ||
(08:30:52 PM) spevack: 2) how often do we want to update information? | ||
(08:30:58 PM) spevack: 3) who do we want updating information? | ||
(08:31:15 PM) spevack: let me be honest with you all... | ||
(08:31:28 PM) spevack: i'm not really sure the best way to wrap my | ||
head around this problem. | ||
(08:31:33 PM) juank_prada: if you allow me to answer those questions, | ||
ill try to do so from the point of view of a user | ||
(08:31:42 PM) spevack: juank_prada: go ahead | ||
(08:32:22 PM) juank_prada: 1) if the users look for the primary site | ||
of a project (in this case fp.o) what he is looking for is primary | ||
information about the project | ||
(08:32:58 PM) juank_prada: also, information about the state of the | ||
project, what thing are being donte, what is the difference between | ||
this project and some other | ||
(08:34:05 PM) ***mmcgrath never goes to suse or ubuntu's website for | ||
information about their projects.. I always go to download ubuntu or | ||
suse. | ||
(08:34:10 PM) juank_prada: if that information catch his attention he | ||
will start digging in the site looking for more specific information, | ||
wich my lead to a user looking for how to join or how to install/use | ||
fedora | ||
(08:34:26 PM) ivazquez: How do you feel that we succeed on that account? | ||
(08:34:46 PM) ivazquez: s/succeed/do/ | ||
(08:35:02 PM) juank_prada: i dont really think that we are succeeding. | ||
(08:35:04 PM) spevack: Well, look, I think there are a few fairly | ||
distinct areas of work that we need to be operating in. | ||
(08:35:14 PM) spevack: (1) Displaying appropriate content and | ||
information on our websites. | ||
(08:35:19 PM) tw2113: gotta go, cya all in the marketing meeting tomorrow :) | ||
(08:35:21 PM) spevack: (2) Theme and look and feel of *.fedoraproject.org | ||
(08:35:27 PM) ricky: tw2113: Thanks for coming | ||
(08:35:32 PM) spevack: (3) Process around getting changes (either | ||
trivial or large) made. | ||
(08:35:32 PM) giarc_w: ciao tw2113 | ||
(08:35:46 PM) ricky: Content seems to be the big discussion right now | ||
(08:35:57 PM) giarc_w: yeah, i agree, content is king | ||
(08:35:58 PM) juank_prada: as i said before most of the information is | ||
on the wiki, which makes having fp.o useless as at the end a user | ||
looking for information wont stay on fp.o, instead he will be going to | ||
the wiki | ||
(08:36:00 PM) JonRob: theme and look and feel is informed by content | ||
(08:36:04 PM) glezos: ricky: thankfully we've got a few examples we | ||
could look at, I guess. | ||
(08:36:12 PM) spevack: From the perspective of attacking all of these | ||
things simultaneously, I think we need to be able to have some leaders | ||
in each of those categories. | ||
(08:36:55 PM) tw2113: just a note: content is king. you can style a | ||
pile of poo 3 ways to sunday and throw some glitter on it to top it | ||
off, but in the end it's still poo. get good content | ||
(08:37:13 PM) giarc_w: juank_prada, if the user finds information on | ||
the wiki by using the website, how is that a useless web site? | ||
(08:37:23 PM) giarc_w: seems to have worked to me | ||
(08:37:33 PM) spevack: here's the other key question -- Who Makes The | ||
Final Decision? | ||
(08:37:34 PM) ivazquez: juank_prada: Can you point to specific failure points? | ||
(08:37:59 PM) spevack: Before we start working on a bunch of different | ||
visions for content on fp.o, who is going to make the call of what we | ||
go with in the end? Does Fedora need a "webmaster"? | ||
(08:38:00 PM) juank_prada: giarc_w: the problem is how many clicks a | ||
user need to do in order to reach information... in web engineering | ||
that one of the things to deal with | ||
(08:38:28 PM) ***mmcgrath is under the constant opinion that the wiki | ||
is not to be trusted, is confusing and suffers from a complete lack of | ||
any vision whatsoever. | ||
(08:38:33 PM) spevack: Someone that the websites team trusts to sort | ||
of be the decision-maker from a content point of view, and someone | ||
(probably someone else) who can be the decision maker from a technical | ||
point of view. | ||
(08:38:40 PM) glezos: spevack: judging by the work/discussions we've | ||
done so far and the progress seen, this big task sounds like a good | ||
idea for a workshop at FUDCon. | ||
(08:38:47 PM) spevack: glezos: yeah | ||
(08:39:11 PM) glezos: ie. a get-together attack instead of many | ||
distributed people working on different tasks. | ||
(08:39:12 PM) juank_prada: ivazquez: one would be the information | ||
about spins... in the get fedora section we point to the mirrors to | ||
download spins.. but we never said ther what are those, or whats the | ||
difference of those spins | ||
(08:39:17 PM) ivazquez: mmcgrath: Perhaps then we need to do away with | ||
huge swaths of the wiki and make them static content instead. | ||
(08:39:34 PM) spevack: When people come to the Fedora website, there | ||
are two things that I want them to be able to do. | ||
(08:39:35 PM) mmcgrath: ivazquez: I think there was a plan for that | ||
but no manpower to do it. | ||
(08:39:39 PM) spevack: 1) GET FEDORA | ||
(08:39:41 PM) ricky: juank_prada: There was talk of having an | ||
explanatory spins.fp.o, but that never materialized :( | ||
(08:39:42 PM) spevack: 2) JOIN FEDORA | ||
(08:39:52 PM) spevack: we've done a good job of making that a reality. | ||
(08:40:01 PM) MostafaDaneshvar [n=Mostafa@217.219.95.36] entered the room. | ||
(08:40:27 PM) spevack: i think that the vision that was spins.fp.o is | ||
exactly what "GET FEDORA" should become. | ||
(08:40:31 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: and spins never came about because no | ||
one ever gave us templates to incorporate. No worker beers. | ||
(08:40:34 PM) mmcgrath: err worker bees. | ||
(08:40:40 PM) JonRob: heh | ||
(08:40:51 PM) spevack: well, there are a lot of people in this meeting. | ||
(08:40:54 PM) spevack: obviously a lot of people who care. | ||
(08:41:00 PM) ***mmcgrath would have done that.... but it would have | ||
come out terrible. | ||
(08:41:06 PM) glezos: brb in 5 | ||
(08:41:07 PM) glezos is now known as glezos_afk | ||
(08:41:11 PM) spevack: let me put it this way... | ||
(08:41:48 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: mizmo did a great job on some | ||
templates to be used for spins.fedoraproject.org but as ivazquez said | ||
it never materialized | ||
(08:42:01 PM) ivazquez: mmcgrath: How it looks is unimportant in the | ||
grand scheme of things. | ||
(08:42:08 PM) spevack: If I were the King of Fedora, and I could just | ||
present a vision and make it happen instantly, I focus all me efforts | ||
on making it as simple as possible for people to join fedora (which | ||
we've been doing well) and in making it as simple as possible for | ||
people to see all the different Fedora spins that exist, and then have | ||
a mechanism to either download them or build them on their own. | ||
(08:42:21 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: nope, no templates were ever | ||
given to me. Just mockups. There was one person on that team that | ||
kept saying "I'll get you the templates" but I never got a thing. | ||
(08:43:18 PM) daMaestro left the room (quit: "Leaving"). | ||
(08:43:21 PM) giarc_w: I think that if we distrust the wiki, we should | ||
identify the info we want from the wiki and make those pages static so | ||
there is tighter control of it's message to users | ||
(08:43:32 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: i can work on it on this weekend | ||
(08:43:36 PM) spevack: Ok... we can talk in circles all day. But | ||
here's my leadership/management style. It's to ask who is willing to | ||
commit to a specific action. | ||
(08:44:05 PM) JonRob: spevack: you beat me to that very question! | ||
(08:44:06 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: sounds like juank_prada just | ||
committed (please correct me if I'm wrong) | ||
(08:44:16 PM) spevack: and then to make sure that those actions all | ||
tie together to a unified vision | ||
(08:44:31 PM) spevack: juank_prada: so, what exactly are you going to | ||
take a look at and work on? | ||
(08:44:36 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: you are right... ill start | ||
working on the spins layout | ||
(08:44:38 PM) mmcgrath: but really juank_prada seems to be a guy that | ||
has a vision for the website, and has even built some mockups. | ||
(08:44:56 PM) spevack: great -- that's exactly the sort of design | ||
leadership that we're looking for. | ||
(08:44:58 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: do you have access to the web repo btw? | ||
(08:45:18 PM) spevack: ok, so one item for next week's agenda is to | ||
let juank_prada present his vision and show us whatever mockups he has | ||
built. | ||
(08:45:26 PM) juank_prada: i think ricky gave me access although ive | ||
never had the time to commit any changes until now | ||
(08:45:35 PM) spevack: two -- ricky, correct me if I'm wrong, but it | ||
seems like most actual process stuff tends to flow through you right | ||
now. | ||
(08:45:38 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: k, ping me in here or | ||
#fedora-admin if you have any questions. | ||
(08:45:40 PM) spevack: is that right? | ||
(08:45:49 PM) ricky: spevack: Yeah. | ||
(08:45:52 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: ok... :) | ||
(08:46:16 PM) ricky: But that ends up amounting to relatively little, | ||
to be honest. | ||
(08:46:26 PM) spevack: ricky: so, do you want to be in charge of doing | ||
whatever you think is right to make the actual change processes more | ||
scalable, better, etc. Basically taking ownership of being the | ||
interface between Infrastructure and Websites? | ||
(08:47:00 PM) ricky: Sure thing (and l10n too) | ||
(08:47:09 PM) spevack: ricky: this comes with no mandates from me, | ||
other than to acknowledge that everyone looks at you as The Guy Who | ||
Gets Stuff Done on The Website and to make sure you have the power to | ||
construct those processes however you like. | ||
(08:47:59 PM) spevack: ok, so how about for next week you be ready to | ||
share with us wha tyou think is good, or where you think we need to | ||
make improvements | ||
(08:48:11 PM) ***spevack keeps having his irc connection hang on | ||
him... very annoying | ||
(08:48:42 PM) juank_ [n=juanky@200.114.38.35] entered the room. | ||
(08:48:45 PM) spevack: ok, what else? mmcgrath, anything else that | ||
was on your mind that we haven't touched on yet? | ||
(08:48:53 PM) spevack: i don't expect to solve everything today, but I | ||
want to see us moving forward. | ||
(08:48:56 PM) juank_: sorry guys... internet crashed :S | ||
(08:49:03 PM) ricky: OK. There are two main things preventing us from | ||
having more freedom with content - first, a unified vision for | ||
content, and then the process for getting it in. | ||
(08:49:12 PM) ricky: What can we do to resolve these? | ||
(08:49:31 PM) JonRob: we could do like the art team does for art work, | ||
re: vision for content | ||
(08:49:34 PM) giarc_w: ricky, are you including getting translated | ||
content in those 2? | ||
(08:49:35 PM) spevack: Here's the thing, folks... all of us can have | ||
visions for the website, but we have to have a couple of people who | ||
are empowered to actually build up test instances, let people play | ||
with things, etc. We need some web engineers. | ||
(08:49:36 PM) JonRob: or maybe that's over kill | ||
(08:49:41 PM) ricky: giarc_w: That's the process. | ||
(08:49:54 PM) spevack: Do we need to do some recruiting? | ||
(08:50:08 PM) juank_: that would be good | ||
(08:50:12 PM) ricky: juank_prada: I've seen some really insightful | ||
discussions about content on the marketing/art lists. | ||
(08:50:18 PM) ricky: juank_prada: Oops, I mean JonRob | ||
(08:50:37 PM) mmcgrath: recruiting is good, it might be best to make | ||
sure we have something for people to do and that it can get put | ||
through the process before we ask people to come though. | ||
(08:50:40 PM) JonRob: yeah, i know the ones you mean ricky | ||
(08:50:53 PM) ivazquez: Perhaps we should get Marketing involved in | ||
content generation. | ||
(08:51:00 PM) giarc_w: ivazquez, +1 | ||
(08:51:04 PM) JonRob: ok: here's my suggestion | ||
(08:51:05 PM) juank_: ivazquez: +1 | ||
(08:51:12 PM) giarc_w: and or docs writers | ||
(08:51:27 PM) spevack: JonRob: go! | ||
(08:51:35 PM) JonRob: we take this week to discuss with marketing and | ||
artwork, and anyone else who's interested, to get some visions for | ||
what the websites need to become | ||
(08:51:36 PM) ricky: +1 | ||
(08:51:47 PM) JonRob: it doesn't matter if we get one or several | ||
(08:51:50 PM) JonRob: but to get some ideas | ||
(08:52:07 PM) JonRob: we can talk about this next week and either a) | ||
figure which one we'd like to pick up and run with | ||
(08:52:23 PM) JonRob: it doesn't matter if it follows the original | ||
spec perfectly, release early and often etc :) | ||
(08:52:30 PM) ivazquez: Absolutely. We're capable of doing the | ||
implementation, but without the ideas there's no point. | ||
(08:52:34 PM) JonRob: or we can run with several and wittle it down as we go | ||
(08:52:52 PM) spevack: So, sorry if I'm repeating myself, but let me | ||
ask this question: | ||
(08:53:03 PM) spevack: Is what we lack a VISION FOR CONTENT, or PEOPLE | ||
TO ACTUALLY DO WORK, or both? | ||
(08:53:10 PM) ricky: Both, and a clear process. | ||
(08:53:16 PM) ricky: So we have a lot of work to do :-) | ||
(08:53:21 PM) epkphoto: both, especially the clear process part | ||
(08:53:25 PM) juank_: i agree with ricky | ||
(08:53:26 PM) ivazquez: More the former from my POV. | ||
(08:53:31 PM) JonRob: i think with a vision would come more people to help | ||
(08:53:37 PM) spevack: ok, well I've appointed Ricky "process guy". | ||
(08:53:42 PM) giarc_w: vision, i think...it seems we have the hands to implement | ||
(08:53:50 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: really we're looking at the last | ||
remnance of the way things used to be... One or two people just doing | ||
the work. its like starting the websites team from scratch again. | ||
(08:53:58 PM) spevack: juank_ has indicated that he wants to present | ||
at least one vision of Content | ||
(08:54:10 PM) mmcgrath: stuff is getting done, but its because of the | ||
dedication of the individuals on the team, not the team itself. We | ||
need to move to a team environment. | ||
(08:54:20 PM) ivazquez: We've shown in the past that we can get the | ||
work done... when there's work to be done. | ||
(08:54:29 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: *nod* | ||
(08:54:56 PM) spevack: well look, if we're basically rebooting the | ||
Fedora Websites team | ||
(08:55:09 PM) spevack: we need the interface to Infrastructure (ricky) | ||
(08:55:15 PM) spevack: We need an interface to Artwork (???) | ||
(08:55:26 PM) ricky: mizmo? | ||
(08:55:29 PM) couf: Docs here | ||
(08:55:36 PM) spevack: mizmo would make sense | ||
(08:55:48 PM) ricky: quaid + couf? | ||
(08:55:50 PM) mmcgrath: we probably shouldn't volunteer her without | ||
her being here though. | ||
(08:55:55 PM) ***abadger1999 has been watching the wrong channel :-( | ||
(08:56:14 PM) mmcgrath: ianweller might be another one. | ||
(08:56:15 PM) giarc_w: tw2113, maybe as well | ||
(08:56:20 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: Ah, true. | ||
(08:56:30 PM) ianweller: hmm? | ||
(08:56:30 PM) ***ianweller wakes up | ||
(08:56:35 PM) ivazquez: We have no shortage of Art people in the Websites team. | ||
(08:56:45 PM) spevack: I think we can get all sorts of good art. | ||
(08:56:50 PM) giarc_w: (or infra) | ||
(08:57:18 PM) juank_: but we first need to tell them what exactly is | ||
what should be done.. and that will only happens after knowing what | ||
kind of info will be shown | ||
(08:57:33 PM) ivazquez: Infra is more tightly defined though, so | ||
having a single Infra POC is a good idea. | ||
(08:57:34 PM) spevack: juank_: and you're going to present us with a | ||
vision for that next week, right? | ||
(08:57:42 PM) mmcgrath: <nod> | ||
(08:57:50 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: its up to you, do you want to be | ||
primary infra POC or should I? | ||
(08:57:53 PM) ***mmcgrath doesn't care. | ||
(08:58:26 PM) ianweller: is this a meeting right now? | ||
(08:58:28 PM) juank_: spevack: ill work on spins section... and i | ||
already did a change to the first page on fp.o to manage some other | ||
content | ||
(08:58:39 PM) giarc_w: ianweller, yep | ||
(08:58:39 PM) spevack: juank_: excellent. | ||
(08:58:50 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: Sure - it'll be good to have two people :) | ||
(08:59:44 PM) ***ricky suddenly wonders about news.fedoraproject.org | ||
(08:59:46 PM) spevack: ok, what else do you guys want to talk about? | ||
Do people feel like we've made any progress in this hour? At least | ||
identified a few issues and started to carve out some ownership | ||
(08:59:59 PM) JonRob: ricky: progres is being made :) | ||
(09:00:13 PM) ricky: Eeeexcellent :) | ||
(09:00:15 PM) juank_: somebody to help ricky would be good... as he | ||
pointed in the ml he was very busy with FAS2 so ther should be | ||
somebody else so ricky dont get overwhelmed with tasks | ||
(09:00:53 PM) ricky: juank_: +1! | ||
(09:01:00 PM) giarc_w: i'll over to help, where ever I can, just point me | ||
(09:01:03 PM) giarc_w: offer | ||
(09:01:04 PM) ivazquez: I can help with the VCS part, but I don't know | ||
the metal that well. | ||
(09:01:04 PM) spevack: I have one more question | ||
(09:01:12 PM) spevack: actually, no i don't | ||
(09:01:16 PM) spevack: i think we have enough swirling right now | ||
(09:01:25 PM) mmcgrath: juank_: yeah, ricky and I will just keep the | ||
lines open with eachother. Ricky's off to college soon too so I | ||
suspect he doesn't quite know how much free time is in his future :) | ||
(09:01:26 PM) ricky: I should start to be more open with the process | ||
on the ml (and with asking people to do stuff) | ||
(09:01:34 PM) ianweller: so do we need a point of contact for artwork? | ||
(09:01:39 PM) ricky: Yeah :) | ||
(09:01:52 PM) giarc_w: i have a question about translations: what are | ||
we planning to do with new pages that do not have translations? | ||
(09:01:54 PM) ivazquez: And maybe we should have one for Marketing as well. | ||
(09:02:07 PM) spevack: Who will be at FUDCon boston? | ||
(09:02:08 PM) ***ricky | ||
(09:02:09 PM) giarc_w: should they wait, or do in | ||
(09:02:11 PM) giarc_w: ? | ||
(09:02:14 PM) giarc_w: go | ||
(09:02:21 PM) ***ivazquez nominates juank_ for the Marketing POC | ||
(09:02:29 PM) ricky: giarc_w: At this point, I'm with go in. | ||
(09:02:39 PM) giarc_w: ok | ||
(09:02:41 PM) ianweller: i'd be willing to be an artwork POC, you | ||
could ask tw2113 too, and make sure you let mizmo know | ||
(09:02:42 PM) ricky: giarc_w: But I'd feel much better if I could put | ||
it in and know that it'd be translated within say, 2 weeks. | ||
(09:03:09 PM) ricky: ianweller: We should probably email a few lists | ||
about this soon | ||
(09:03:10 PM) giarc_w: <nod> how can we do that ? | ||
(09:03:18 PM) juank_: i wouldnt mind to be the Marketing POC if you | ||
all agree with that | ||
(09:03:36 PM) couf: juank_: hired | ||
(09:03:36 PM) juank_prada left the room (quit: Read error: 110 | ||
(Connection timed out)). | ||
(09:03:38 PM) JonRob: no problems here :) | ||
(09:03:38 PM) giarc_w: +1 for juank_ POC with marketing | ||
(09:03:38 PM) MostafaDaneshvar left the room ("Konversation terminated!"). | ||
(09:03:38 PM) ricky: giarc_w: One idea that I mentioned was a sort of | ||
website translation cycle that l10n would be aware of (although I'm | ||
not sure how much that could affect our speed/flexibility) | ||
(09:04:30 PM) spevack: ok... so I think we're about ready to adjourn | ||
the official part of this meeting, though everyone can keep talking. | ||
JonRob... about that volunteering to be secretary? Will you get a log | ||
posted and also glean out of it the various action items that we have? | ||
(09:04:41 PM) JonRob: yep | ||
(09:04:47 PM) JonRob: lol is the only reason i'm here really!! | ||
(09:04:47 PM) ricky: Important thing: Next meeting time? | ||
(09:04:53 PM) spevack: JonRob: thank you -- i cannot tell you how much | ||
i appreciate that. | ||
(09:04:55 PM) ricky: We're on top of a docs meeting now, I think. | ||
(09:04:58 PM) ricky: JonRob: Thanks! | ||
(09:05:11 PM) JonRob: np - good excuse for avoiding essay writing :p | ||
(09:05:50 PM) ricky: So wednesdays are really good for me, except for | ||
- 21:30 UTC or so. | 20:10 | |
(09:06:11 PM) ricky: What other days/times are convenient for everybody? | ||
(09:06:27 PM) juank_: i cant really do on wednesday... i rather | ||
mondays o fridays ... (today was an exception) | ||
(09:06:39 PM) ianweller: i have school and usually i can pop in IRC | ||
about 20:00-21:00 UTC on weekdays. | ||
(09:06:53 PM) ianweller: any time before that is impossible for me | ||
(09:07:02 PM) JonRob: shall i set up a matrix on the wiki? or is that overkill? | ||
(09:07:08 PM) JonRob: i know it works for docs | ||
(09:07:20 PM) ***giarc_w is pretty flexible and will be able to make | ||
most any time | ||
(09:07:23 PM) ricky: JonRob: That'd be great, can you post a link | ||
along with the meeting log? | ||
(09:07:30 PM) ***ricky actually has to run now, since it's almost 20:10 :) | ||
(09:07:41 PM) JonRob: yep...hopefully all should be up later tonight | ||
(09:07:49 PM) ianweller: cool | ||
(09:08:09 PM) ricky: All right, then - thanks a lot, everybody. | ||
(09:08:14 PM) JonRob: though if anyone wants to let me know how to do | ||
the irc to html conversion so it looks swish on the wiki that'd be | ||
cool | ||
(09:08:18 PM) ricky: spevack: and thanks for stepping up to make this happen1 | ||
(09:08:44 PM) JonRob: yep - you guys got some good work done this eve, | ||
congrats to all | ||
(09:08:44 PM) spevack: ricky: well, i'll drive these meetings for the | ||
forseeable future. If there's one skill I have, it's repeating "who's | ||
doing X" over and over again :) | ||
(09:08:45 PM) couf: JonRob: talk to jmbuser he knows how it works | ||
(09:08:55 PM) spevack: so is there a plan to figure out the next meeting time? | ||
(09:09:00 PM) ricky: JonRob: Sending the log to the mailing list is convenient. | ||
(09:09:01 PM) JonRob: couf: thanks | ||
(09:09:09 PM) JonRob: ricky: i'll do both | ||
(09:09:10 PM) ricky: (Infrastructure does that + a link to the ml post | ||
from the wiki) | ||
(09:09:29 PM) ricky: spevack: So far, it looks like wiki matrix + | ||
boucing times around on the ml | ||
(09:09:33 PM) ricky: JonRob: Thanks a lot | ||
(09:09:35 PM) spevack: ok | ||
(09:09:57 PM) spevack: ok, well we'll see you all next week... and | ||
I'll be hounding folks on the ML who accepted action items. :) | ||
(09:10:02 PM) spevack: Thanks for coming, all | ||
(09:10:08 PM) spevack: ============ adjourned ============== |
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