Improving wiki localization

[Samuel Bizien]

Hi,
                
I'm Samuel Bizien, a young french student working in the french l10n
team, especially on wiki pages.
                
We've seen that, while there's a lot of pages translated into french,
french readers are not always aware that they exist, and surf the wiki
in english. Several tumes, i've seen french community members sending
links to english page, where we had translated it. I think other l10n
team may have the same problem. 
I've seen that this point has been discussed, but i haven't seen any
answer.

To solve this problem, we could imagine 2 different solutions:
1. As for FedoraMain page, redirect user to the localized version of the
page he asked for. It seems to be a bit complicated...

2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it was
impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the feature
request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
- List all translations available on the english page
- In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
Maybe to do that, a macro would be "the top". I do not know how to write
a macro. But we could use a template, defined for all l10n teams. An
example of what it could be :
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SamuelBizien/Example_en
You're allowed and encouraged to modify this page, test different
solution, templates, or look. 
What do you think of it ?

Obviously, this need to be discussed, that's just ideas that i share.

Regards,

Samuel Bizien.


PS: I hope you've understood my (poor) english language. Ask me to
explain a bit more if you do not.

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:

>  We've seen that, while there's a lot of pages translated into
> french,
>  french readers are not always aware that they exist, and surf the wiki
>  in english. Several tumes, i've seen french community members sending
>  links to english page, where we had translated it. I think other l10n
>  team may have the same problem. 
>  I've seen that this point has been discussed, but i haven't seen any
>  answer. 
Great for bringing this up Samuel! We really need to find a solution and apply
it so that people are directed to the most helpful page for them.

>  2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it
> was
>  impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the feature
>  request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
>  could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
>  - List all translations available on the english page
>  - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page. 
I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:

  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages

Once we finalize the discussion we can write there some guidelines for the wiki
translation.

I added another approach: create a subpage listing translations and linking from
all pages there, so that all localized pages link to all the rest. I used a
table and some CSS to style it up (which could be moved to our CSS file
screen-common.css).

We need to decide on the separation character for the page names: Blah.fr_FR,
Blah_fr_FR, or Blah-fr_FR?

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
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"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Samuel Bizien]

Le samedi 23 juin 2007 à 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  > 2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw
> it was
>  > impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the feature
>  > request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
>  > could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
>  > - List all translations available on the english page
>  > - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
>  
>  I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:
>  
>    http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages 
I prefer your version, i think
it's more "clear".

>  I added another approach: create a subpage listing translations and
> linking from
>  all pages there, so that all localized pages link to all the rest. I used a
>  table and some CSS to style it up (which could be moved to our CSS file
>  screen-common.css). 
That sounds pretty a good solution.


>  We need to decide on the separation character for the page names:
> Blah.fr_FR,
>  Blah_fr_FR, or Blah-fr_FR? 
For the moment, we prefix adresses by language name. For
example:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join
-> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/fr_FR/RejoindreFedora
-> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/pt_BR/Join
-> [...]
The french version of the wiki is under fr_FR/ "directory", but original
names are not always kept.

Regards.

Samuel Bizien.

[Diego Búrigo Zacarão]

>  >   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear".
>
>  
Here another suggestion I have done times ago:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/OverViewi18n

I personally also liked the Dimitris's version.

Regards

-- 
Diego Búrigo Zacarão
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE

[Samuel Bizien]

Le dimanche 24 juin 2007 à 13:30 -0300, Diego Búrigo Zacarão a écrit :
>          >   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>          I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear". 
>  Here another suggestion I have done times ago: 
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/OverViewi18n
>  
>  I personally also liked the Dimitris's version. 
I also like your version.
But I think it's necessary to use subpage to manage translation list:
those who have subscribed to the page doesn't want to be warned each
time a translation is added. And the subpage can also be included in all
translations of the page.


Samuel.

[Diego Búrigo Zacarão]

+1

2007/6/24, Samuel Bizien <samuel-bizien(a)club-internet.fr&gt;:
>  Le dimanche 24 juin 2007 à 13:30 -0300, Diego Búrigo Zacarão a écrit :
>  >         >   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  >         I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear".
>
>  > Here another suggestion I have done times ago:
>  > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/OverViewi18n
>  >
>  > I personally also liked the Dimitris's version.
>  I also like your version.
>  But I think it's necessary to use subpage to manage translation list:
>  those who have subscribed to the page doesn't want to be warned each
>  time a translation is added. And the subpage can also be included in all
>  translations of the page.
>
>
>  Samuel.
>
>  --
>  Fedora-websites-list mailing list
>  Fedora-websites-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-websites-list
>
>
>  

-- 
Diego Búrigo Zacarão
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
>  Le samedi 23 juin 2007 à 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
> >> 2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it was
> >> impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the feature
> >> request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
> >> could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
> >> - List all translations available on the english page
> >> - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
> > I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:
> >
> >   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>
>  I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear". 
Cool. :-) We can start using the standard way of an included subpage then. Is
the short name "langs" OK? Maybe we should go with a more descriptive
"PageLanguages"?

Also, how are we going to separate the page name from the language? I prefer the
dot.

 * Wikipage.pt_BR
 * Wikipage_pt_BR
 * Wikipage-pt_BR

If there are no objections, I can go on to put the CSS in screen-common (this
should be done prior of starting to use the standard). After this, we can tweak
the CSS however we like and affect all pages.

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Samuel Bizien]

Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 01:27 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
>  > Le samedi 23 juin 2007 à 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  >>> 2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it was
>  >>> impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the
> feature
>  >>> request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
>  >>> could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
>  >>> - List all translations available on the english page
>  >>> - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
>  >> I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:
>  >>
>  >>   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  >
>  > I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear".
>  
>  Cool. :-) We can start using the standard way of an included subpage then. Is
>  the short name "langs" OK? Maybe we should go with a more descriptive
>  "PageLanguages"? 
"Langs" is simple and clear. 

>  
>  Also, how are we going to separate the page name from the language? I prefer the
>  dot.
>  
>   * Wikipage.pt_BR
>   * Wikipage_pt_BR
>   * Wikipage-pt_BR 
All translated wiki pages are under "ln_LN/" directory
(fr_FR/, zh_CN,
es_ES, pt_BR, el_EL, ...) for the moment. couldn't we keep this
separation ? It's quite simple, and allows to translate even WikiNames.


>  If there are no objections, I can go on to put the CSS in
> screen-common (this
>  should be done prior of starting to use the standard). After this, we can tweak
>  the CSS however we like and affect all pages. 
Based on your version, I tried a new
one, featuring "official" Fedora
colors (from palette found on Mairin Duffy blog), a small icon with
flags (is it useful ?), found on translate.fp.o, and a link to L10N page
(to encourage people to translate to their language). I don't like
colors (for my proposition), but other ideas can be kept.

Regards

Samuel.

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
>  All translated wiki pages are under "ln_LN/" directory
> (fr_FR/, zh_CN,
>  es_ES, pt_BR, el_EL, ...) for the moment. couldn't we keep this
>  separation ? It's quite simple, and allows to translate even WikiNames. 
Agreed. With this approach we even have the opportunity to create new pages for
each language, etc.

So, the convention will be that the Langs page will exist on the English page.

> > If there are no objections, I can go on to put the CSS in
> screen-common (this
> > should be done prior of starting to use the standard). After this, we can tweak
> > the CSS however we like and affect all pages.
>  
>  Based on your version, I tried a new one, featuring "official" Fedora
>  colors (from palette found on Mairin Duffy blog), a small icon with
>  flags (is it useful ?), found on translate.fp.o, and a link to L10N page
>  (to encourage people to translate to their language). I don't like
>  colors (for my proposition), but other ideas can be kept. 
Any link for us to see? :)

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Samuel Bizien]

Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 12:49 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  > Based on your version, I tried a new one, featuring
> "official"
>  Fedora
>  > colors (from palette found on Mairin Duffy blog), a small icon with
>  > flags (is it useful ?), found on translate.fp.o, and a link to L10N
>  page
>  > (to encourage people to translate to their language). I don't like
>  > colors (for my proposition), but other ideas can be kept.
>  
>  Any link for us to see? :) 
Oops, I forget to "save" the page I was
working on, this morning, sorry.
This is here: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages

Samuel.

[Bart Couvreur]

Op maandag 25-06-2007 om 08:34 uur [tijdzone +0200], schreef Samuel
Bizien:
>  Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 01:27 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  > O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
>  > > Le samedi 23 juin 2007 à 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  > >>> 2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it was
>  > >>> impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the
> feature
>  > >>> request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n
> teams
>  > >>> could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
>  > >>> - List all translations available on the english page
>  > >>> - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
>  > >> I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:
>  > >>
>  > >>   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  > >
>  > > I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear".
>  > 
>  > Cool. :-) We can start using the standard way of an included subpage then. Is
>  > the short name "langs" OK? Maybe we should go with a more descriptive
>  > "PageLanguages"?
>  "Langs" is simple and clear. 
>  
>  > 
>  > Also, how are we going to separate the page name from the language? I prefer the
>  > dot.
>  > 
>  >  * Wikipage.pt_BR
>  >  * Wikipage_pt_BR
>  >  * Wikipage-pt_BR
>  All translated wiki pages are under "ln_LN/" directory (fr_FR/, zh_CN,
>  es_ES, pt_BR, el_EL, ...) for the moment. couldn't we keep this
>  separation ? It's quite simple, and allows to translate even WikiNames.
>   
Yeah, we *definitely* need to keep this structure.
>  
>  > If there are no objections, I can go on to put the CSS in screen-common (this
>  > should be done prior of starting to use the standard). After this, we can tweak
>  > the CSS however we like and affect all pages.
>  Based on your version, I tried a new one, featuring "official" Fedora
>  colors (from palette found on Mairin Duffy blog), a small icon with
>  flags (is it useful ?), found on translate.fp.o, and a link to L10N page
>  (to encourage people to translate to their language). I don't like
>  colors (for my proposition), but other ideas can be kept. 
Flags is a questionable thing, it's generally not advised to use flags
(I remember reading that in Fedora's case it was even not allowed), due
to political feelings etc.


>  
>  Regards
>  
>  Samuel. 
I'm actually wondering about the use of *Dict-pages as well, didn't
these give people the ability to link the translated page to the English
original. I'm not sure here though.

Regards
Bart

-- 
Bart <couf(a)fedoraproject.org&gt; <couf(a)skynet.be&gt;
key fingerprint: 6AAB 544D 3432 D013 776D  3602 ADB6 6B2A D93F 0F93

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Bart Couvreur έγραψε:
>  I'm actually wondering about the use of *Dict-pages as well,
> didn't
>  these give people the ability to link the translated page to the English
>  original. I'm not sure here though. 
I'm wondering about that as well. And also about some patches that exist which
use a mediawiki-like language selection box in the sidebar. AFAICT, this is not
included in the main trunk yet, but there are some successful implementations
out there.

The question is, should we choose the laborious path of creating subpages with
the available languages, or the laborious too path of maintaining a patchset for
the Fedora wiki?

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Karsten Wade]

On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:13 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote:

>  The question is, should we choose the laborious path of creating
> subpages with
>  the available languages, or the laborious too path of maintaining a patchset for
>  the Fedora wiki? 
We already maintained a patched Wiki.  The question is, will Fedora
Infrastructure approve/support the idea?  Can't hurt to ask, and if it
saves us endless hours in the future for a limited amount of hours now
and with each (twice-yearly?) upgrade ... that would be a good thing.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Karsten Wade]

On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:05 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:

>  Flags is a questionable thing, it's generally not advised to use
> flags
>  (I remember reading that in Fedora's case it was even not allowed), due
>  to political feelings etc. 
It is true that we try to watch that carefully; I don't think there is a
strict "not allowed" rule.  The idea is to not associate a specific
nation's flag with a specific language.  When thought about, this should
be obvious -- people don't have to fly a certain flag to speak (or
translate into) a language.

When I saw Dimitris used a flag icon on
http://translate.fedoraproject.org, I thought about bringing that up.  I
figured he used a stock icon to convey the idea.  The more I think about
it, the more I realize it doesn't really work.  Even the flags used in
the current icon are potentially contentious to any number of millions
of people around the world.  We should leave the flags to the nation
states, and think up a new icon.  Time for an Art Team icon request?

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Rahul Sundaram]

Karsten Wade wrote:
>  On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:05 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:
>  
> > Flags is a questionable thing, it's generally not advised to use flags
> > (I remember reading that in Fedora's case it was even not allowed), due
> > to political feelings etc.
>  
>  It is true that we try to watch that carefully; I don't think there is a
>  strict "not allowed" rule.  
Actually there is. I wrote that up a while back and announced it where I 
could. See 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Languages#head-2ae52dbef2515e18d66fba220112...

Rahul

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Rahul Sundaram έγραψε:
>  Karsten Wade wrote:
> > On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:05 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote:
> >
> >> Flags is a questionable thing, it's generally not advised to use flags
> >> (I remember reading that in Fedora's case it was even not allowed), due
> >> to political feelings etc.
> >
> > It is true that we try to watch that carefully; I don't think there is a
> > strict "not allowed" rule. 
>  
>  Actually there is. I wrote that up a while back and announced it where I
>  could. See
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Languages#head-2ae52dbef2515e18d66fba220112...
I agree about not associating a flag with a particular language.

Note, though, that localization is all about tweaking Fedora for a particular
region/country, which *is* associated with a flag. So, while putting the flag of
Brazil on the brazilian portuguese language is wrong, putting it on the website
of the "Fedora Brazil" team is not only fair, but very accurate.

Also, associating a bunch of (preferably non-existing) flags with the term
"localization" or "translations" shouldn't be bad either. The
Artwork project
could indeed create an icon with non-existing-flags, like the Tango one:

http://tango.freedesktop.org/static/cvs/tango-icon-theme/32x32/apps/prefe...

-d


-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Diego Búrigo Zacarão]

>  I agree about not associating a flag with a particular language.
>
>  Note, though, that localization is all about tweaking Fedora for a
>  particular
>  region/country, which *is* associated with a flag. So, while putting the
>  flag of
>  Brazil on the brazilian portuguese language is wrong, putting it on the
>  website
>  of the "Fedora Brazil" team is not only fair, but very accurate.
>
>  Also, associating a bunch of (preferably non-existing) flags with the term
>  "localization" or "translations" shouldn't be bad either. The
> Artwork
>  project
>  could indeed create an icon with non-existing-flags, like the Tango one:
>
>
>
> http://tango.freedesktop.org/static/cvs/tango-icon-theme/32x32/apps/prefe...
>
>  -d
>  
Here there is a icon suggestion:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/TestPage

Regards

-- 
Diego Búrigo Zacarão
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE

[Samuel Bizien]

Le mercredi 27 juin 2007 à 11:25 -0300, Diego Búrigo Zacarão a écrit :
>          
>          I agree about not associating a flag with a particular
>          language.
>          
>          Note, though, that localization is all about tweaking Fedora
>          for a particular 
>          region/country, which *is* associated with a flag. So, while
>          putting the flag of
>          Brazil on the brazilian portuguese language is wrong, putting
>          it on the website
>          of the "Fedora Brazil" team is not only fair, but very
>          accurate. 
>          
>          Also, associating a bunch of (preferably non-existing) flags
>          with the term
>          "localization" or "translations" shouldn't be bad either.
> The
>          Artwork project
>          could indeed create an icon with non-existing-flags, like the
>          Tango one: 
>          
>         
> http://tango.freedesktop.org/static/cvs/tango-icon-theme/32x32/apps/prefe...
>          
>          -d
>  
>  Here there is a icon suggestion:
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/TestPage 
Great ! 
I've also dropped a request for art team, and Nicu Buculei made us a
preview of what it could be: i used his icon on
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages .
Both icons looks good.

Samuel.

[Dimitris Glezos]

O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
> > Here there is a icon suggestion:
> > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DiegoZacarao/TestPage 
I've uploaded Diego's ideas on:

  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/WikiElements

Currently the screen-common.css file links to one of those flags.

>  Great ! 
>  I've also dropped a request for art team, and Nicu Buculei made us a
>  preview of what it could be: i used his icon on
>  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages .
>  Both icons looks good. 
Any 16px renderings? Diego's icons look great at 16px.

-d

-- 
Dimitris Glezos
Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
http://dimitris.glezos.com/

"He who gives up functionality for ease of use
loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
--

[Diego Búrigo Zacarão]

I have made a new suggestion for menu style using the structure "Page.Lang"
based on "Quick links" of ArtWork Team Wiki Page:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages

Regards

2007/6/24, Dimitris Glezos <dimitris(a)glezos.com&gt;:
>  O/H Samuel Bizien έγραψε:
>  > Le samedi 23 juin 2007 à 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos a écrit :
>  >>> 2. Include a list of translation available on the pages. I saw it was
>  >>> impossible to do it automatically with MoinMoin (it's one of the
>  feature
>  >>> request -and there's a lot of feature requests-). Maybe the l10n teams
>  >>> could manage it, no ? For example, we could :
>  >>> - List all translations available on the english page
>  >>> - In translated version, add a link to english (original) page.
>  >> I've copied your page to our wikispace, at:
>  >>
>  >>   http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Wikipages
>  >
>  > I prefer your version, i think it's more "clear".
>
>  Cool. :-) We can start using the standard way of an included subpage then.
>  Is
>  the short name "langs" OK? Maybe we should go with a more descriptive
>  "PageLanguages"?
>
>  Also, how are we going to separate the page name from the language? I
>  prefer the
>  dot.
>
>  * Wikipage.pt_BR
>  * Wikipage_pt_BR
>  * Wikipage-pt_BR
>
>  If there are no objections, I can go on to put the CSS in screen-common
>  (this
>  should be done prior of starting to use the standard). After this, we can
>  tweak
>  the CSS however we like and affect all pages.
>
>  -d
>
>
>  --
>  Dimitris Glezos
>  Jabber ID: glezos(a)jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B
>  http://dimitris.glezos.com/
>
>  "He who gives up functionality for ease of use
>  loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous)
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Diego Búrigo Zacarão
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE

[Karsten Wade]

On Sat, 2007-06-23 at 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote:

>  I added another approach: create a subpage listing translations and
> linking from
>  all pages there, so that all localized pages link to all the rest. I used a
>  table and some CSS to style it up (which could be moved to our CSS file
>  screen-common.css). 
How about using the Category* tool?  For example, all pages translated
into French would have this at the bottom:

----
CategoryfrFR

If that is confusing, how about "CategoryLangfrFR".

The category tool is a bit resource intensive to use, AIUI.  Still, if
every translated page were part of a category of pages in that language,
it would make pulling up all translated pages a bit easier.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
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[Diego Búrigo Zacarão]

Great idea!

So, in pages under /wiki/pt_BR/, for example, it only need add a new
category.

Regards

2007/6/25, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>  On Sat, 2007-06-23 at 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
>
>  > I added another approach: create a subpage listing translations and
>  linking from
>  > all pages there, so that all localized pages link to all the rest. I
>  used a
>  > table and some CSS to style it up (which could be moved to our CSS file
>  > screen-common.css).
>
>  How about using the Category* tool?  For example, all pages translated
>  into French would have this at the bottom:
>
>  ----
>  CategoryfrFR
>
>  If that is confusing, how about "CategoryLangfrFR".
>
>  The category tool is a bit resource intensive to use, AIUI.  Still, if
>  every translated page were part of a category of pages in that language,
>  it would make pulling up all translated pages a bit easier.
>
>  - Karsten
>  --
>     Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project
>  Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
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>  ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
>
>  --
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>  Fedora-websites-list(a)redhat.com
>  https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-websites-list
>
>
>  

-- 
Diego Búrigo Zacarão
Linux User #402589
USE SOFTWARE LIVRE

[Samuel Bizien]

Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 09:00 -0300, Diego Búrigo Zacarão a écrit :
>  Great idea!
>  
>  So, in pages under /wiki/pt_BR/, for example, it only need add a new
>  category.
>  
>  Regards
>  
>  2007/6/25, Karsten Wade <kwade(a)redhat.com&gt;:
>          On Sat, 2007-06-23 at 19:52 +0100, Dimitris Glezos wrote:
>          
>          > I added another approach: create a subpage listing
>          translations and linking from 
>          > all pages there, so that all localized pages link to all the
>          rest. I used a
>          > table and some CSS to style it up (which could be moved to
>          our CSS file
>          > screen-common.css).
>          
>          How about using the Category* tool?  For example, all pages
>          translated 
>          into French would have this at the bottom:
>          
>          ----
>          CategoryfrFR
>          
>          If that is confusing, how about "CategoryLangfrFR".
>          
>          The category tool is a bit resource intensive to use,
>          AIUI.  Still, if 
>          every translated page were part of a category of pages in that
>          language,
>          it would make pulling up all translated pages a bit easier. 
I don't understand ... What is it for ?
Isn't it more simpler to have all translated version of the page listed
on the same page, than on different category pages ?

Regards.

[Karsten Wade]

On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:08 +0200, Samuel Bizien wrote:
>  I don't understand ... What is it for ? 
When you put a CategoryFoo at the bottom of a page, it is automatically
picked up as a link in the category.  Then, navigating to
fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryFoo automatically builds out the list of
pages.

>  Isn't it more simpler to have all translated version of the page
> listed
>  on the same page, than on different category pages ? 
That page would have to be created and maintained manually, yes?

I think a manual page would be hard to keep updated.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
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////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Samuel Bizien]

Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 10:22 -0700, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:08 +0200, Samuel Bizien wrote:
>  > I don't understand ... What is it for ?
>  
>  When you put a CategoryFoo at the bottom of a page, it is automatically
>  picked up as a link in the category.  Then, navigating to
>  fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryFoo automatically builds out the list of
>  pages. 
Yes, but ...
What will be the goal ? Having a list of all pages that are translated
in a given language ?
We thought about it, few days ago, on fedora-trans-fr list. But it's
quite long (and not "user-friendly"), for a visitor to watch a page
listing all translated pages (for french version of the wiki, we have
about a hundred of translated pages ...).

But maybe i did not understand your point ...

But it could be useful for language teams, to keep track of all pages
that are translated.

>  > Isn't it more simpler to have all translated version of the
> page listed
>  > on the same page, than on different category pages ?
>  
>  That page would have to be created and maintained manually, yes? 
Err ... yes (until
we get automatic tools to do it).

>  I think a manual page would be hard to keep updated. 
Not
necessary. It will be hard to switch to this tool, on wiki, as we'll
have to add these subpages to all translated pages in the wiki. But once
it's done, translators will have to keep these pages up to date: each
time they translate or update a page, they verify that their language is
listed. We could create a "mini-guideline" for this.


Samuel.

[Karsten Wade]

On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 19:36 +0200, Samuel Bizien wrote:
>  Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 10:22 -0700, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  > On Mon, 2007-06-25 at 14:08 +0200, Samuel Bizien wrote:
>  > > I don't understand ... What is it for ?
>  > 
>  > When you put a CategoryFoo at the bottom of a page, it is automatically
>  > picked up as a link in the category.  Then, navigating to
>  > fedoraproject.org/wiki/CategoryFoo automatically builds out the list of
>  > pages.
>  Yes, but ...
>  What will be the goal ? 
>  Having a list of all pages that are translated
>  in a given language ? 
I have just finished catching up on the thread, and I see my idea
doesn't approach the usability the other ideas have.  As you said ...

>  We thought about it, few days ago, on fedora-trans-fr list. But
> it's
>  quite long (and not "user-friendly"), for a visitor to watch a page
>  listing all translated pages (for french version of the wiki, we have
>  about a hundred of translated pages ...). 
... it is not user friendly.

>  But it could be useful for language teams, to keep track of all
> pages
>  that are translated. 
Yes, that would be useful.

Maybe we offer it as a practice suggestion/guideline.  "One way to help
keep track of your translated pages is to add CategoryLang$LANG to the
bottom of the page.  This helps you make sure that no pages are
forgotten after being translated, so they can be linked in to the
per-language table of contents."

BTW, side note ... I'm sorry that you all have to translate directly
into the Wiki.  IMO, you are heroes for the effort alone.  My hope is
that some of the systems being worked on right now are going to give us
a way to yank strings from the Wiki pages, put them in POT files, and
make this part of the regular tools.

- Karsten
-- 
   Karsten Wade, 108 Editor       ^     Fedora Documentation Project 
 Sr. Developer Relations Mgr.     |  fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject
   quaid.108.redhat.com           |          gpg key: AD0E0C41
////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

[Samuel Bizien]

Le lundi 25 juin 2007 à 12:00 -0700, Karsten Wade a écrit :
>  Maybe we offer it as a practice suggestion/guideline.  "One way
> to help
>  keep track of your translated pages is to add CategoryLang$LANG to the
>  bottom of the page.  This helps you make sure that no pages are
>  forgotten after being translated, so they can be linked in to the
>  per-language table of contents."
>  
>  BTW, side note ... I'm sorry that you all have to translate directly
>  into the Wiki.  IMO, you are heroes for the effort alone.  My hope is
>  that some of the systems being worked on right now are going to give us
>  a way to yank strings from the Wiki pages, put them in POT files, and
>  make this part of the regular tools. 
Don't be sorry... Wiki is a great tool for
team work: we can test, try,
and correct pages unlimitedly. Within french team, we're defining
guidelines to translate and correct french wiki pages: tools provided by
wiki are really useful for us. And no one is alone, in the translation
team, there's a strong "team spirit" :-) .

Samuel.