hi,
I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser start page start.fedoraproject.org.
following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so free, tracking your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing mail and passwords from privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a bug or must-have feature for maps?).
IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora repos do not include software with non-free licenses but links to a non free search engine company the same time...
any ideas?
why not point to a more free alternative search engine like duckduckgo.com?
TIA, Meine __________________ meine linux fedora 15 gnome 3 & fedora 16 lxde
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:07:09AM +0100, trialero wrote:
hi,
I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser start page start.fedoraproject.org.
following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so free, tracking your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing mail and passwords from privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a bug or must-have feature for maps?).
IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora repos do not include software with non-free licenses but links to a non free search engine company the same time...
any ideas?
why not point to a more free alternative search engine like duckduckgo.com?
The Fedora Board recently discussed duckduckgo. We found that duckduckgo is not more free (in terms of free software) than google.
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
-Toshio
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Toshio Kuratomi a.badger@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 12:07:09AM +0100, trialero wrote:
hi,
I wonder why google is the search engine used on the default browser
start page start.fedoraproject.org.
following the news there are frequent messages about google being not so
free, tracking your searches, combining your data without opt-out, stealing mail and passwords from privately owned wifi all over the world (was it a bug or must-have feature for maps?).
IMHO this is in contrast to the Fedora philosophy of Freedom. Fedora
repos do not include software with non-free licenses but links to a non free search engine company the same time...
any ideas?
why not point to a more free alternative search engine like
duckduckgo.com?
The Fedora Board recently discussed duckduckgo. We found that duckduckgo is not more free (in terms of free software) than google.
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
-Toshio
-- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
As for the website team view: Most of as prefer to get rid of start.fedoraproject.org entirely https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
Things that I've already started in april[1].
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are. But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add a discrete box like: "Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install process!"
Like that we 1) break things 2) ask people that don't like this change to contribute 3) move forward
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2011-April/018501.html
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are. But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add a discrete box like: "Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install
Dont know much but once I came accross this :
"YaCy is a free search engine that anyone can use to build a search portal for their intranet or to help search the public internet. When contributing to the world-wide peer network, the scale of YaCy is limited only by the number of users in the world and can index billions of web pages. It is fully decentralized, all users of the search engine network are equal, the network does not store user search requests and it is not possible for anyone to censor the content of the shared index. We want to achieve freedom of information through a free, distributed web search which is powered by the world's users. "
-- Digvijay Patankar Senior Research Fellow, Dept. of Civil Engineering, Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore - 560012
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Kévin Raymond shaiton@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no
current
open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-)
Things that I've already started in april[1].
@team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are.
I know where we are. The current fp.o page is really cluttered, and it has no clear purpose, as detailed in the wiki page. If we want to drop the page, we need a permission from the board to do it, but we were all to lazy to bring this up to the board. If we want to use it as a what'snew page (similar to what Firefox does after an update) that will explain what's new in the release, we would need a design (it needs to be more attractive than a wiki page and well designed), we need someone to update it every release, we need a permission from the board, and we need to speak with the Firefox package maintainers to make sure users will only see this page when they first open firefox after a new installation of Fedora or an upgrade, and never again until they upgrade to the next Fedora.
But we could change the default search engine to duckduckgo, and add a discrete box like: "Don't like the default search engine? Join us and contribute to a new feature, called "Select the default search engine during the install process!"
Like that we
- break things
- ask people that don't like this change to contribute
- move forward
[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2011-April/018501.html
-- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 01:06:10PM +0200, Elad Alfassa wrote:
On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Kévin Raymond shaiton@fedoraproject.org wrote:
> It does have a privacy policy that is more stringent about the data that > duckduckgo keeps than the data that google keeps, though. With no current > open source search engine, the Board decided that the website team could > decide for itself what search technology to use to implement start.fp.o > (which I see you are raising here, in the appropriate list :-) > Things that I've already started in april[1]. @team, we spoke about redesigning start.fpo, don't know where we are.I know where we are. The current fp.o page is really cluttered, and it has no clear purpose, as detailed in the wiki page. If we want to drop the page, we need a permission from the board to do it, but we were all to lazy to bring this up to the board. If we want to use it as a what'snew page (similar to what Firefox does after an update) that will explain what's new in the release, we would need a design (it needs to be more attractive than a wiki page and well designed), we need someone to update it every release, we need a permission from the board, and we need to speak with the Firefox package maintainers to make sure users will only see this page when they first open firefox after a new installation of Fedora or an upgrade, and never again until they upgrade to the next Fedora.
The present Board will most likely Okay any redesign you'd like to do. They'd probably be okay with dropping it as well if you know where you want the default start page for firefox to be instead.
-Toshio
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
On 02/02/2012 08:48 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
The present Board will most likely Okay any redesign you'd like to do. They'd probably be okay with dropping it as well if you know where you want the default start page for firefox to be instead.
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
Just for some history:
Years ago Docs noticed that we owned the default local index.html that came up in the browser (/usr/share/docs/HTML/index.html). We started loading it with information useful to users - links to release-notes, sub-projects, forums, help, etc. - and getting it translated.
Along the way, others realized we could have an actual web page to hit instead of using a local page, which made it easier to make it useful to users on the fly - reload the page instead of updating the package. This came in with discussing if there was some value to Fedora in having an arrangement with a search engine provider to be the chosen-one for our default search box. There being none, we went with the popular choice.
I mention that so it can help in understanding how we got to what we have today, in searching for where to go next.
- - Karsten - -- name: Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Sr. Community Architect team: Red Hat Community Architecture & Leadership uri: http://communityleadershipteam.org http://TheOpenSourceWay.org gpg: AD0E0C41
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them, since that's what you really want to do.
~m
2012/2/2 Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them, since that's what you really want to do.
~m
-- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
I'd say we keep Firefox's default about:home, we don't change default homepage in other browsers, so we shouldn't change it on Firefox as well (stick to upstream policy).
The dashboard idea sounds good though, especially because more GNOME applications are going to have these soon ( https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointThree/Features/Blank%20slate%20helps%20you%...). We could install this Firefox extension you are talking about by default with Fedora if it's stable enough (and 100% free with no legal issues). If you link me to the specific extension, I'll try to get it packaged (if it isn't already), which is the first thing we need to make it default.
2012/2/2 Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org
On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:33 -0800, Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote:
I totally understand redesigning, but not understanding the dropping of the page - what would be a reasonable replacement?
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
E.g., if I open a web browser, I'm going to view my web calendar, read planet Fedora, or look something up on wikipedia.
So the alternative is a dashboard built into the browser (Firefox provides this via a plugin, I think the others do too) that shows your most frequently visited sites so you can easily click to access them, since that's what you really want to do.
~m
-- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
I agree with Mairin, the most folks would want to go to their own website after the launch the browser.
The only way I could think of having start.fedoraproject.org being of any use it to link the user to the corresponding Release Notes [1] (as an example). This way the user would have a quick glance of what's new and what has changed and they go on with their daily business. Another reason for going to that page is the "CommonBugs" page which is important, especially after an upgrade.
Unless we something like I mention above is done, my thought recently has been to remove it or maybe just replace start.fp.o with fedoraproject.org
Sijis
[1] - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_16_Alpha_release_notes
@Elad Alfassa
Firefox's about:home is a local page. Mo's idea is also 100% local.
file is indeed local --> /usr/lib/firefox/omni.ja/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutHome.xhtml
but here Google is the search engine...
@Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
question is then what people want to do after starting their browser end how we can facilitate this. maybe open a page with all the categorized bookmarks in [+]/[-] expandable/collapsable lists?
//meine
2012/2/5 trialero trialero@gmx.com
@Elad Alfassa
Firefox's about:home is a local page. Mo's idea is also 100% local.
file is indeed local --> /usr/lib/firefox/omni.ja/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutHome.xhtml
but here Google is the search engine...
Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get paid by Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
@Máirín Duffy duffy@fedoraproject.org
The rationale is that when people open up a web browser, they want to go to where they want to go, and that is very likely not start.fedoraproject.org.
question is then what people want to do after starting their browser end how we can facilitate this. maybe open a page with all the categorized bookmarks in [+]/[-] expandable/collapsable lists?
//meine
websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get paid by Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
Except that it is, because of our agreement to use the Firefox trademark - we can't modify the browser at all.
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Jon Stanley jonstanley@gmail.com wrote:
On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Elad Alfassa elad@fedoraproject.org wrote:
Google is the default search engine in Firefox because mozilla get paid
by
Google for it to be this way. It's not difficult to change it.
Except that it is, because of our agreement to use the Firefox trademark - we can't modify the browser at all. -- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
We can't modify the code unless the modifications are approved by mozilla, but we can modify default preferences.
Hi there,
This is an old thread, we have not decided anything because: - Alternatives are not 100% Open Source - Users like the Google results.
I haven't checked about seeks update, but nowadays we could use https://startpage.com/ which is search engine based on Google (it just forward queries), but protecting our privacy. It uses Bing for pictures and blinkx.com for movies.
http://duckduckgo.com/ Is by far the most interesting search engine, and using the bang! syntax (!sp) we could ask DDG to give us startpage results (i.e. Google!).
We are a leading edge community, we are not simple users, we should change start.fpo, and see with our browsers maintainer if they want to switch.
Of course, this is only my voice, what about you?
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:32 PM, Kévin Raymond shaiton@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
Hi there,
This is an old thread, we have not decided anything because:
- Alternatives are not 100% Open Source
- Users like the Google results.
I haven't checked about seeks update, but nowadays we could use https://startpage.com/ which is search engine based on Google (it just forward queries), but protecting our privacy. It uses Bing for pictures and blinkx.com for movies.
http://duckduckgo.com/ Is by far the most interesting search engine, and using the bang! syntax (!sp) we could ask DDG to give us startpage results (i.e. Google!).
We are a leading edge community, we are not simple users, we should change start.fpo, and see with our browsers maintainer if they want to switch.
Of course, this is only my voice, what about you?
-- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
start.fpo is useful and used by many users (Mairin gave us some stats about her blog).
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Kévin Raymond shaiton@fedoraproject.orgwrote:
My opinion is that we should drop start.fedoraproject.org entirely. See discussion here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Start.fpo_redesign
start.fpo is useful and used by many users (Mairin gave us some stats about her blog).
-- Kévin Raymond (shaiton) GPG-Key: A5BCB3A2 -- websites mailing list websites@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/websites
If so, it needs to be re-designed, because the current design has too much visual clutter.
websites@lists.fedoraproject.org
-
Digvijay Patankar -
Elad Alfassa -
Jon Stanley -
Karsten Wade -
Kévin Raymond -
meine -
Máirín Duffy -
Sijis Aviles -
Toshio Kuratomi