How can we improve the spin?

[Jayson Rowe]

What's up everybody.

I've debated this mail for a while - I'm the 'new kid' around these
parts, but in a short time I've developed quite a passion around
Fedora, and especially the Xfce spin. I've put some thought and
research into this, so thanks for humoring me and reading.

As great as our spin is, I know it can be better. In reality anything
can be better - there should be a constant evolution of improvements.
I know as Xfce users, we are a smaller niche group from what would use
the default Desktop spin, or perhaps even the KDE spin. It is true,
however that Xfce is experiencing a spike in popularity lately.

Now, although I've only recently finally made the full switch back to
Fedora (I used RHL and Fedora through Core2 before switching) I only
regret not coming back sooner.

Now to the point at hand, how can we make Fedora's Xfce spin
first-class. I guess first, we have to define what *is* first class. I
loaded up different distros with Xfce in VM's and poked around, just
to see how they looked and felt, and my only real impressions were:

a) many aspects of panel layout/themes are very much personal preference

---and---

b) sadly, every Xfce 'spin' I tried felt at least somewhat more
polished than Fedora's out-of-the box presentation in one way or
another...

There are tons of screenshots on the web, but here are mine from my
VMs (with my thoughts for each).

Xubuntu: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/xubuntu_12_04.png

So - looks nice. Greybird is my favorite theme. The wallpaper has been
the same for at least 2, maybe 3 releases (I think, Charlie Kraviez
can correct me on this I'm sure as he was one the Xubuntu Project
Leader).
I never liked the 'auto-hide' dock...in fact, I generally hate the
'extra' Xfce panel anyway. The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
together.

Sabayon 9: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/sabayon_9.png
Although not really a 'mainstream' distro, I really only loaded it up
out of curiosity to see what they had done w/ Xfce since most of the
reviews and stuff online focus on the GNOME and KDE spins of this
distro. I actually kinda like what they did. A 2 panel layout that
could easily appeal to GNOME2 refugees, but still different from a
GNOME2 layout. Again, nice icons, although everything doesn't match as
nicely as in Xubuntu, still looks pretty polished. The default theme
is nice (looks to be custom to the distro, perhaps) and the use the
default Xfce window decorations.

openSUSE 12.2 (Beta):
In terms of competition for similar user-bases, I would think of
openSUSE and Fedora to have the two most similar potential user bases.
I like the single panel layout, although the icons seems stock Xfce,
they look nicely integrated. The mixer applet on the panel (Gmixer)
doesn't seem to be in our repos, but the icon for it looks nicer than
the faded icon w/ the blue half-circles we have w/ the default Xfce
mixer applet. They are using Adwaita for a GTK theme, and a custom
window decoration (that seems closely based on the default Xfce
decorations).

Linux Mint Debian Edition:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/linux_mint_debi...
I find the GTK theme a little too 'white' (along w/ the default
wallpaper), but both the theme and window decorations seem to be
modified versions of Greybird. Green (aka Mint) icons, but all of the
icons match, look nicely integrated, and the system tray icons match,
except for using the same mixer icon we use.\

And now, we all know the default Fedora 17 look:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_default.png
Here I will point out mainly what I don't like: First, I don't like
the borders around the clock and notification area...just looks
unfinished to me. I also wish the Applications Menu icon were the
Fedora logo. I think the Adwaita theme works well (supports GTK3), but
the Nodoka window decorations look dated. I hate the mixer icon, but
like the rest of the 'Fedora' icon set.

This next screenshot is how *I* would improve the look we have now,
sticking with a same/similar layout:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png
Changes? The Fedora logo for the Applications Menu, no borders around
the clock and notification area, and the default Xfce window
decoration. Before I took this screenshot, I also ugraded to 4.10, and
added the 'Action Buttons' plugin to the panel.

Next, I simply eliminate a *personal* pet peeve - the second, bigger
panel that doesn't take up the entire width of the screen. It seems
wasteful to me (especially with maximized windows). I also reduced the
top panel to 24px.:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_b.png

The next layout would appeal to GNOME 2 refugees:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_c.png
A second (24px) panel is added back, and a places applet displaying
label only is added to the top panel. Reduced the text of the App menu
button to just display 'Applications'. This layout looks very much
like GNOME2 (to me anyway).

Next, is a layout similar to what openSUSE had:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
A single bottom panel, 24px.

Finally, is basically what I'm using:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_e.png
It's the same as the last layout, but using Greybird and the
Elementary icon theme. For my personal use, I'm still a little torn
between this and Adwaita, however I think the Elementary icon theme
looks SO much nicer, even that ugly mixer icon is fixed ;-) It just
looks more polished and integrated. I know everyone doesn't like the
darker grey panel look/menus etc...

So...now that I've said all of that what do you think? Like I said, I
was torn about jumping in as a new guy with suggestions, but I figured
why not...the worst y'all could do is say 'go away, your bothering
me'...so I did it.
Other thoughts I've had is, what other things do we do as a 'SIG'. I
noticed an e-mail from Rex Dieter to fedora-devel speaking of a KDE
SIG meeting - have we as a SIG ever had IRC meetings? Would there be
any value? Would anyone attend? Since I'm just now jumping in, has
there been other recent discussion I've missed about plans for F18? I
know Kevin has spoken of moving to LightDM, and has included Greybird
as being installed by default in the spin for F18.

I'm not looking to ruffle feathers, just get discussion going and make
Fedora 18's Xfce spin even more awesome.

Thanks for reading!
Jayson
-- 
-jayson

[Sergio Cipolla]

Hi, Jayson.
I think Fedora currently ships the upstream Xfce layout. That doesn't 
mean that it can't be improved. For instance, the Xfce menu isn't the 
upstream menu as it adds an 'Administration' category and eliminates 
duplicities (I use this menu when I install Xfce 4.10; the latter has 
the upstream original menu).
I think that your suggested modifications look nicer ( 
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png 
), although the xfwm theme that comes with the spin is nice too.
Personally, I think that Adwaita is a good GTK theme to use on the spin 
if only because it's from GNOME and so it works properly (GTK3 up to now 
keeps braking themes). I don't use it, I use MediterraneanNight (from 
gnome-look.org ) because it has options for window background that ain't 
white.
I also think that the panel width should be kept as it is; 24px can be 
small for some people. The second panel is also there so people are 
inspired to play with the panel capabilities. I use it for launchers in 
auto-hiding mode (try using a 1024x768 screen like me).
Once I wrote to Christoph Wickert about adding a matching icon theme for 
Claws mail but it must be packaged, so there's this limitation too.

Personally I think the spin is very good. It's lightweight and brings 
only what one needs to start (more on this below).
I don't think the looks is that important. If the default look was so 
bad we would report a bug upstream so they would fix it.

The most important thing I see now is to replace GDM and whatever GNOME 
stuff that ain't strictly necessary for the system (like NetworkManager, 
which works well and should be kept, IMO).

Ideally I think that there could be separate spins with and without 
Asian languages/input methods support. That's the only thing that's 
bloat for one that uses only the Latin alphabet.

[Jayson Rowe]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi, Jayson.
>  I think that your suggested modifications look nicer (
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png ),
>  although the xfwm theme that comes with the spin is nice too. 
I agree, that Nodoka looks nice, it just looks dated. I think it's
been around since Fedora 8 or 9.
My biggest nags w/ the default layout are the borders around the clock
and notification area - not sure why they bother me so :)
Same for the App menu logo.

>  Personally, I think that Adwaita is a good GTK theme to use on the
> spin if
>  only because it's from GNOME and so it works properly (GTK3 up to now keeps
>  braking themes). I don't use it, I use MediterraneanNight (from
>  gnome-look.org ) because it has options for window background that ain't
>  white. 
I agree 100% on Adwaita. Although I like the darker look/feed of
Greybird, I know it's an acquired taste for sure.

>  I also think that the panel width should be kept as it is; 24px can
> be small
>  for some people. 
Interesting thought...GNOME 2 had 24px panels by defualt, and I don't
know that I'd ever seen anyone grow them to 30(+)...but I'd honestly
never thought of 24px being too small. Good point though.

> The second panel is also there so people are inspired to
>  play with the panel capabilities. I use it for launchers in auto-hiding mode
>  (try using a 1024x768 screen like me). 
I can see that use for it...*if* on autohide (Xubuntu has a
transparent bottom panel on autohide to mimic a 'dock').

>  Once I wrote to Christoph Wickert about adding a matching icon theme
> for
>  Claws mail but it must be packaged, so there's this limitation too. 
The Elementary Icon Theme has a nice mail icon that Claws picks up.


>  Personally I think the spin is very good. It's lightweight and
> brings only
>  what one needs to start (more on this below).
>  I don't think the looks is that important. If the default look was so bad we
>  would report a bug upstream so they would fix it. 
I agree 100%. It doesn't look 'bad' at all, just trying to think of
ways to add polish.


>  The most important thing I see now is to replace GDM and whatever
> GNOME
>  stuff that ain't strictly necessary for the system (like NetworkManager,
>  which works well and should be kept, IMO). 
I agree there as well. I'm looking forward to LightDM in F18 (assuming
that's still the plan).

Thanks so much for your comments Sergio!



-- 
-jayson

[Miro Hrončok]

Hi,
I like this a lot:
http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png

It reminds me Fedora 14:
http://www.linuxexpres.cz/uploads/gallery/original/4846.jpg

Miro Hrončok

Jabber: miro(a)hroncok.cz
Telefon: [phone]


2012/6/28 Jayson Rowe <jayson.rowe(a)gmail.com&gt;:
>  What's up everybody.
>
>  I've debated this mail for a while - I'm the 'new kid' around these
>  parts, but in a short time I've developed quite a passion around
>  Fedora, and especially the Xfce spin. I've put some thought and
>  research into this, so thanks for humoring me and reading.
>
>  As great as our spin is, I know it can be better. In reality anything
>  can be better - there should be a constant evolution of improvements.
>  I know as Xfce users, we are a smaller niche group from what would use
>  the default Desktop spin, or perhaps even the KDE spin. It is true,
>  however that Xfce is experiencing a spike in popularity lately.
>
>  Now, although I've only recently finally made the full switch back to
>  Fedora (I used RHL and Fedora through Core2 before switching) I only
>  regret not coming back sooner.
>
>  Now to the point at hand, how can we make Fedora's Xfce spin
>  first-class. I guess first, we have to define what *is* first class. I
>  loaded up different distros with Xfce in VM's and poked around, just
>  to see how they looked and felt, and my only real impressions were:
>
>  a) many aspects of panel layout/themes are very much personal preference
>
>  ---and---
>
>  b) sadly, every Xfce 'spin' I tried felt at least somewhat more
>  polished than Fedora's out-of-the box presentation in one way or
>  another...
>
>  There are tons of screenshots on the web, but here are mine from my
>  VMs (with my thoughts for each).
>
>  Xubuntu: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/xubuntu_12_04.png
>
>  So - looks nice. Greybird is my favorite theme. The wallpaper has been
>  the same for at least 2, maybe 3 releases (I think, Charlie Kraviez
>  can correct me on this I'm sure as he was one the Xubuntu Project
>  Leader).
>  I never liked the 'auto-hide' dock...in fact, I generally hate the
>  'extra' Xfce panel anyway. The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
>  the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
>  together.
>
>  Sabayon 9: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/sabayon_9.png
>  Although not really a 'mainstream' distro, I really only loaded it up
>  out of curiosity to see what they had done w/ Xfce since most of the
>  reviews and stuff online focus on the GNOME and KDE spins of this
>  distro. I actually kinda like what they did. A 2 panel layout that
>  could easily appeal to GNOME2 refugees, but still different from a
>  GNOME2 layout. Again, nice icons, although everything doesn't match as
>  nicely as in Xubuntu, still looks pretty polished. The default theme
>  is nice (looks to be custom to the distro, perhaps) and the use the
>  default Xfce window decorations.
>
>  openSUSE 12.2 (Beta):
>  In terms of competition for similar user-bases, I would think of
>  openSUSE and Fedora to have the two most similar potential user bases.
>  I like the single panel layout, although the icons seems stock Xfce,
>  they look nicely integrated. The mixer applet on the panel (Gmixer)
>  doesn't seem to be in our repos, but the icon for it looks nicer than
>  the faded icon w/ the blue half-circles we have w/ the default Xfce
>  mixer applet. They are using Adwaita for a GTK theme, and a custom
>  window decoration (that seems closely based on the default Xfce
>  decorations).
>
>  Linux Mint Debian Edition:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/linux_mint_debi...
>  I find the GTK theme a little too 'white' (along w/ the default
>  wallpaper), but both the theme and window decorations seem to be
>  modified versions of Greybird. Green (aka Mint) icons, but all of the
>  icons match, look nicely integrated, and the system tray icons match,
>  except for using the same mixer icon we use.\
>
>  And now, we all know the default Fedora 17 look:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_default.png
>  Here I will point out mainly what I don't like: First, I don't like
>  the borders around the clock and notification area...just looks
>  unfinished to me. I also wish the Applications Menu icon were the
>  Fedora logo. I think the Adwaita theme works well (supports GTK3), but
>  the Nodoka window decorations look dated. I hate the mixer icon, but
>  like the rest of the 'Fedora' icon set.
>
>  This next screenshot is how *I* would improve the look we have now,
>  sticking with a same/similar layout:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png
>  Changes? The Fedora logo for the Applications Menu, no borders around
>  the clock and notification area, and the default Xfce window
>  decoration. Before I took this screenshot, I also ugraded to 4.10, and
>  added the 'Action Buttons' plugin to the panel.
>
>  Next, I simply eliminate a *personal* pet peeve - the second, bigger
>  panel that doesn't take up the entire width of the screen. It seems
>  wasteful to me (especially with maximized windows). I also reduced the
>  top panel to 24px.:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_b.png
>
>  The next layout would appeal to GNOME 2 refugees:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_c.png
>  A second (24px) panel is added back, and a places applet displaying
>  label only is added to the top panel. Reduced the text of the App menu
>  button to just display 'Applications'. This layout looks very much
>  like GNOME2 (to me anyway).
>
>  Next, is a layout similar to what openSUSE had:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
>  A single bottom panel, 24px.
>
>  Finally, is basically what I'm using:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_e.png
>  It's the same as the last layout, but using Greybird and the
>  Elementary icon theme. For my personal use, I'm still a little torn
>  between this and Adwaita, however I think the Elementary icon theme
>  looks SO much nicer, even that ugly mixer icon is fixed ;-) It just
>  looks more polished and integrated. I know everyone doesn't like the
>  darker grey panel look/menus etc...
>
>  So...now that I've said all of that what do you think? Like I said, I
>  was torn about jumping in as a new guy with suggestions, but I figured
>  why not...the worst y'all could do is say 'go away, your bothering
>  me'...so I did it.
>  Other thoughts I've had is, what other things do we do as a 'SIG'. I
>  noticed an e-mail from Rex Dieter to fedora-devel speaking of a KDE
>  SIG meeting - have we as a SIG ever had IRC meetings? Would there be
>  any value? Would anyone attend? Since I'm just now jumping in, has
>  there been other recent discussion I've missed about plans for F18? I
>  know Kevin has spoken of moving to LightDM, and has included Greybird
>  as being installed by default in the spin for F18.
>
>  I'm not looking to ruffle feathers, just get discussion going and make
>  Fedora 18's Xfce spin even more awesome.
>
>  Thanks for reading!
>  Jayson
>  --
>  -jayson
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce

[Jayson Rowe]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Miro Hrončok <miro(a)hroncok.cz&gt; wrote:
>  Hi,
>  I like this a lot:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
>
>  It reminds me Fedora 14:
>  http://www.linuxexpres.cz/uploads/gallery/original/4846.jpg
>
>  Miro Hrončok
>
>  Jabber: miro(a)hroncok.cz
>  Telefon: [phone] 
Yes, I like that as well! Seems to be a 30px panel w/ no text on the
Applications menu (which has the Fedora logo). To *me* that looks much
more polished than what is default in F17.

-- 
-jayson

[Sergio Cipolla]

I have another observation.
I wouldn't ship Midori with the spin.
It isn't an Xfce app. It uses git.xfce.org but it's an Elementary 
Project app.*
It isn't so lightweight on resources. It's small but that's because it 
uses the stock webkit-gtk engine which isn't small (but, granted, GIMP 
needs it too so the spin doesn't get much larger).
But most importantly, it's unusable currently as it crashes everywhere 
and Firefox does the job pretty well.


* I used to use Midori as I translated it back then and kept always 
running the development version. I'm not a programmer so I can't say if 
one thing has to do with the other but ever since Christian (the main 
dev) started focusing on GTK3 support and that Ubuntu 
'menu-on-the-panel' thing Midori went downhill. Mainly, I suppose, 
because the stock webkit-gtk engine browser crashes everywhere and so 
does Midori.

[Johannes Lips]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  I have another observation.
>  I wouldn't ship Midori with the spin.
>  It isn't an Xfce app. It uses git.xfce.org but it's an Elementary Project
>  app.*
>  It isn't so lightweight on resources. It's small but that's because it
>  uses the stock webkit-gtk engine which isn't small (but, granted, GIMP
>  needs it too so the spin doesn't get much larger).
>  But most importantly, it's unusable currently as it crashes everywhere and
>  Firefox does the job pretty well.
>
>
>  * I used to use Midori as I translated it back then and kept always
>  running the development version. I'm not a programmer so I can't say if one
>  thing has to do with the other but ever since Christian (the main dev)
>  started focusing on GTK3 support and that Ubuntu 'menu-on-the-panel' thing
>  Midori went downhill. Mainly, I suppose, because the stock webkit-gtk
>  engine browser crashes everywhere and so does Midori.
>
>  ______________________________**_________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>
> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/xfce<https://admin....
>  
Sorry but midori is still a Xfce app, even if it's developed with some
focus on keeping the elementary design. Also it's not that unstable if you
just use it for basic web browsing.
I could observe a lot of crashes related to flash. If you try to avoid
flash it works pretty flawless.

Johannes

[Jayson Rowe]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Johannes Lips <johannes.lips(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
> >
> > I have another observation.
> > I wouldn't ship Midori with the spin.
> > It isn't an Xfce app. It uses git.xfce.org but it's an Elementary Project
> > app.*
> > It isn't so lightweight on resources. It's small but that's because it
> > uses the stock webkit-gtk engine which isn't small (but, granted, GIMP needs
> > it too so the spin doesn't get much larger).
> > But most importantly, it's unusable currently as it crashes everywhere and
> > Firefox does the job pretty well.
> >
> >
> > * I used to use Midori as I translated it back then and kept always
> > running the development version. I'm not a programmer so I can't say if one
> > thing has to do with the other but ever since Christian (the main dev)
> > started focusing on GTK3 support and that Ubuntu 'menu-on-the-panel' thing
> > Midori went downhill. Mainly, I suppose, because the stock webkit-gtk engine
> > browser crashes everywhere and so does Midori.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > xfce mailing list
> > xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
>
>  Sorry but midori is still a Xfce app, even if it's developed with some focus
>  on keeping the elementary design. Also it's not that unstable if you just
>  use it for basic web browsing.
>  I could observe a lot of crashes related to flash. If you try to avoid flash
>  it works pretty flawless.
>
>  Johannes
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 
I use Midori a lot - Chrome is my 'main' browser, but at work, I use
Midori to keep out ticketing system, wiki and intranet up - it's light
on resources, and works well for that task, and helps me keep my
personal stuff (chrome) separate from my chrome stuff.

-- 
-jayson

[Jayson Rowe]

On Thu, Jun 28, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Miro Hrončok <miro(a)hroncok.cz&gt; wrote:

>  It reminds me Fedora 14:
>  http://www.linuxexpres.cz/uploads/gallery/original/4846.jpg
>
>  Miro Hrončok
>
>  Jabber: miro(a)hroncok.cz
>  Telefon: [phone]
>  
I just wanted to add, I *really* like this screenshot of F14. I've set
up my work machine here to be similar to that, and I could definitely
live with this as default, and not tweak a thing. Under F17, I'm using
Adwaita and 'Default' as window decoration.

[Christoph Wickert]

Hi Jayson,

thanks for your elaborate mail. I wanted to get back to you already over
the "Non-flattering review of Fedora XFCE", but this mail just became
too long and I never finished it.

This time I'll only reply to some parts and skip the rest.

Am Mittwoch, den 27.06.2012, 23:44 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
>  a) many aspects of panel layout/themes are very much personal
> preference
>  
>  ---and---
>  
>  b) sadly, every Xfce 'spin' I tried felt at least somewhat more
>  polished than Fedora's out-of-the box presentation in one way or
>  another... 
I think we had some very good releases, like F14, that really impressed
some Xfce developers. Unfortunately we could not hold up the high
standard for 2 reasons:
     1. GNOME and GTK 3 and it's fallout on us
     2. We were too busy to care about Xfce.

There are definitely some bugs and annoyances in the F17 Xfce spin that
we should have caught with better QA, but both Kevin and me were just
too busy with our dayjobs.

>  Xubuntu:
> http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/xubuntu_12_04.png
>  
>  So - looks nice. Greybird is my favorite theme.  
Greybird is a nice theme and Simon is a pretty good artist. He can
completely focus on artwork. On the other hand we don't have a real
artist in the Xfce SIG, at least nobody who is active.

There are two things I hate about Greybird though:
     1. The dark menu and panels. Windows 7 started the trend and now
        everybody tries to mimic it.
     2. The window decorations use the window content color and as this
        one is the same for all windows, it is hard to see which window
        actually has the focus. Only the window title is different. This
        is annoying, because a small popup can 'steal' the focus and
        it's not visible at a glance.

While the first is a matter of personal taste, the second is a usability
issue.

>  The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
>  the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
>  together. 
As the icons in the system tray are provided by the appications, we have
no control over them. E.g. gnome-bluetooth hardcodes the icon name to
the monochrome 'symbolic' theme and there is nothing we can do about it.
blueman is IHMO no alternative as it tends to break with ever new
release of NetworkManager.

>  Sabayon 9:
> http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/sabayon_9.png
>  [...]
>  A 2 panel layout that could easily appeal to GNOME2 refugees, but
>  still different from a GNOME2 layout. 
If we change the layout, the one thing I don't want is a GNOME 2
lookalike panel. Xfce is a desktop of it's own and not a shelter for
GNOME refugees.

>  openSUSE 12.2 (Beta):
>  [...]
>  The mixer applet on the panel (Gmixer) doesn't seem to be in our
>  repos, 
It was, but was removed because it is unmaintained and orphaned
upstream.

>  but the icon for it looks nicer than the faded icon w/ the blue
>  half-circles we have w/ the default Xfce mixer applet. 
I very much like our icon, but that's just a personal preference.

>  And now, we all know the default Fedora 17 look:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_default.png
>  Here I will point out mainly what I don't like: First, I don't like
>  the borders around the clock and notification area...just looks
>  unfinished to me. 
IHMO this would need to be changed not only in the default panel layout
but in the code itself, so new clock applets and notification areas
don't have a border either. Otherwise it becomes inconsistent. I thought
about this, but never had the time to look into the code. Patches
welcome.

>  I also wish the Applications Menu icon were the Fedora logo. 
Unfortunately we cannot do this. Fedora has a strict de-branding policy.
All Fedora-specific icons must be in the fedora-logos package and by
replacing it with generic-logos, you get back a completely unbranded
system.

In Xfce 4.6 we just provided a svg graphic with the same name as the
original one (xfce4_xicon1). Because GTK prefers svg over png this
works, if the svg was removed, the panel would fall back to the original
one. Other distributions don't care about this and hardcode their icon
in the config.

>  I think the Adwaita theme works well (supports GTK3), but
>  the Nodoka window decorations look dated. 
Yes, this definitely is a bug, it's a leftover of the time when we had
Nodoka also as GTK theme, but with GTK3 we had to change to Adwaita and
by that time, we should have also changed the window decorations. I
recently removed that patch in rawhide.

>  This next screenshot is how *I* would improve the look we have now,
>  sticking with a same/similar layout:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png
>  Changes? The Fedora logo for the Applications Menu, no borders around
>  the clock and notification area, and the default Xfce window
>  decoration. 
IIRC we discussed all this already, but as I just explained, we cannot
make these changes, at least not easily.

>  Before I took this screenshot, I also ugraded to 4.10, and
>  added the 'Action Buttons' plugin to the panel. 
I have been thinking about this, too, but the "action menu" as it was
called in 4.8 was just completely broken. We should consider it for F18
though.

>  Next, I simply eliminate a *personal* pet peeve - the second, bigger
>  panel that doesn't take up the entire width of the screen.  
I agree it is a waste of space, but the alternative would be to hide it
(this is what I am using). However this seems to confuse new users and
as you said, you don't like hiding panels either.

>  It seems
>  wasteful to me (especially with maximized windows). I also reduced the
>  top panel to 24px.:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_b.png 
Too small IHMO.

>  The next layout would appeal to GNOME 2 refugees:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_c.png 
Please, no! Let Xfce be independent, even if GNOME 2 refugees seem to be
a big target audience.

>  Next, is a layout similar to what openSUSE had:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
>  A single bottom panel, 24px. 
I'm afraid this won't work on small screens. The main menu with menu
title, the pager and the action buttons menu take too much space. Try
this on a 14" screen and you'll see that there hardly is any space left
for the task bar.

>  So...now that I've said all of that what do you think? Like I
> said, I
>  was torn about jumping in as a new guy with suggestions, but I figured
>  why not...the worst y'all could do is say 'go away, your bothering
>  me'...so I did it. 
I appreciate your input. It's good to see people do care about Xfce in
Fedora and I even agree there are some things in the review you recently
posted that are just bugs and we need to fix them. However it is not
easy to incorporate the suggestions if we stick to the standards that
Fedora has:
      * Don't change a file that belongs to a package in a spin. Changes
        need to go into the package itself.
      * Don't change stuff that is not yours. I know that Xubuntu did
        this in the past when they had a stripped down gnome-session
        package that was different from the one in Ubuntu.
      * Make sure everything can get unbranded.

>  Other thoughts I've had is, what other things do we do as a
> 'SIG'. I
>  noticed an e-mail from Rex Dieter to fedora-devel speaking of a KDE
>  SIG meeting - have we as a SIG ever had IRC meetings? 
Yes, but only a few people attended and we decided to have meetings just
on demand.

>  Would there be any value? Would anyone attend? 
I am not sure if there is value. I think input is nice, but what we
really need is people doing stuff. We had these discussions several
times before, for example around F15 where we had a lot of GNOME
refugees. We had proposals for themes and panel layouts, but it just
didn't happen. Nobody provided patches or code.

I am willing to give it a new try, but we not only need to meet and talk
but get things done.

>  Since I'm just now jumping in, has
>  there been other recent discussion I've missed about plans for F18? 
Not really. We should draft something in the Wiki I think, on the
mailing list it can easily get lost.

>  I know Kevin has spoken of moving to LightDM,  
LightDM already was planned for F17, but it was not ready by that time.
It's still not really, but I think we'll make it for F18.

>  and has included Greybird
>  as being installed by default in the spin for F18. 
It is included in the spin, but it is not the default. Again, we would
not just change the spin but change the package and the package still
has Adwaita as you can see
http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/gitweb/?p=xfce4-settings.git;a=blob;f=xfce4...

IHMO we should stick to Adwaita, it is less 'controversial' than
Greybird and we should try to have a consistent look and feel across all
GTK based desktops in Fedora, that is GNOME, Xfce and LXDE.

There is a new GTK2 theme called Bridge [1] that mimics Adwaita and
AFAIK this will be merged into GNOME upstream. If we use this, we
finally have GTK2 and GTK3 look the same again.

Kind regards,
Christoph

[1] http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=151057

[Jayson Rowe]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Hi Jayson,
>
>  thanks for your elaborate mail. I wanted to get back to you already over
>  the "Non-flattering review of Fedora XFCE", but this mail just became
>  too long and I never finished it.
>
>  This time I'll only reply to some parts and skip the rest.
>
>  Am Mittwoch, den 27.06.2012, 23:44 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
> > a) many aspects of panel layout/themes are very much personal preference
> >
> > ---and---
> >
> > b) sadly, every Xfce 'spin' I tried felt at least somewhat more
> > polished than Fedora's out-of-the box presentation in one way or
> > another...
>
>  I think we had some very good releases, like F14, that really impressed
>  some Xfce developers. Unfortunately we could not hold up the high
>  standard for 2 reasons:
>      1. GNOME and GTK 3 and it's fallout on us
>      2. We were too busy to care about Xfce.
>
>  There are definitely some bugs and annoyances in the F17 Xfce spin that
>  we should have caught with better QA, but both Kevin and me were just
>  too busy with our dayjobs.
>
> > Xubuntu: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/xubuntu_12_04.png
> >
> > So - looks nice. Greybird is my favorite theme.
>
>  Greybird is a nice theme and Simon is a pretty good artist. He can
>  completely focus on artwork. On the other hand we don't have a real
>  artist in the Xfce SIG, at least nobody who is active.
>
>  There are two things I hate about Greybird though:
>      1. The dark menu and panels. Windows 7 started the trend and now
>         everybody tries to mimic it.
>      2. The window decorations use the window content color and as this
>         one is the same for all windows, it is hard to see which window
>         actually has the focus. Only the window title is different. This
>         is annoying, because a small popup can 'steal' the focus and
>         it's not visible at a glance.
>
>  While the first is a matter of personal taste, the second is a usability
>  issue.
>
> > The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
> > the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
> > together.
>
>  As the icons in the system tray are provided by the appications, we have
>  no control over them. E.g. gnome-bluetooth hardcodes the icon name to
>  the monochrome 'symbolic' theme and there is nothing we can do about it.
>  blueman is IHMO no alternative as it tends to break with ever new
>  release of NetworkManager.
>
> > Sabayon 9: http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/sabayon_9.png
> > [...]
> > A 2 panel layout that could easily appeal to GNOME2 refugees, but
> > still different from a GNOME2 layout.
>
>  If we change the layout, the one thing I don't want is a GNOME 2
>  lookalike panel. Xfce is a desktop of it's own and not a shelter for
>  GNOME refugees.
>
> > openSUSE 12.2 (Beta):
> > [...]
> > The mixer applet on the panel (Gmixer) doesn't seem to be in our
> > repos,
>
>  It was, but was removed because it is unmaintained and orphaned
>  upstream.
>
> > but the icon for it looks nicer than the faded icon w/ the blue
> > half-circles we have w/ the default Xfce mixer applet.
>
>  I very much like our icon, but that's just a personal preference.
>
> > And now, we all know the default Fedora 17 look:
> > http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_default.png
> > Here I will point out mainly what I don't like: First, I don't like
> > the borders around the clock and notification area...just looks
> > unfinished to me.
>
>  IHMO this would need to be changed not only in the default panel layout
>  but in the code itself, so new clock applets and notification areas
>  don't have a border either. Otherwise it becomes inconsistent. I thought
>  about this, but never had the time to look into the code. Patches
>  welcome.
>
> > I also wish the Applications Menu icon were the Fedora logo.
>
>  Unfortunately we cannot do this. Fedora has a strict de-branding policy.
>  All Fedora-specific icons must be in the fedora-logos package and by
>  replacing it with generic-logos, you get back a completely unbranded
>  system.
>
>  In Xfce 4.6 we just provided a svg graphic with the same name as the
>  original one (xfce4_xicon1). Because GTK prefers svg over png this
>  works, if the svg was removed, the panel would fall back to the original
>  one. Other distributions don't care about this and hardcode their icon
>  in the config.
>
> > I think the Adwaita theme works well (supports GTK3), but
> > the Nodoka window decorations look dated.
>
>  Yes, this definitely is a bug, it's a leftover of the time when we had
>  Nodoka also as GTK theme, but with GTK3 we had to change to Adwaita and
>  by that time, we should have also changed the window decorations. I
>  recently removed that patch in rawhide.
>
> > This next screenshot is how *I* would improve the look we have now,
> > sticking with a same/similar layout:
> > http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png
> > Changes? The Fedora logo for the Applications Menu, no borders around
> > the clock and notification area, and the default Xfce window
> > decoration.
>
>  IIRC we discussed all this already, but as I just explained, we cannot
>  make these changes, at least not easily.
>
> > Before I took this screenshot, I also ugraded to 4.10, and
> > added the 'Action Buttons' plugin to the panel.
>
>  I have been thinking about this, too, but the "action menu" as it was
>  called in 4.8 was just completely broken. We should consider it for F18
>  though.
>
> > Next, I simply eliminate a *personal* pet peeve - the second, bigger
> > panel that doesn't take up the entire width of the screen.
>
>  I agree it is a waste of space, but the alternative would be to hide it
>  (this is what I am using). However this seems to confuse new users and
>  as you said, you don't like hiding panels either.
>
> > It seems
> > wasteful to me (especially with maximized windows). I also reduced the
> > top panel to 24px.:
> > http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_b.png
>
>  Too small IHMO.
>
> > The next layout would appeal to GNOME 2 refugees:
> > http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_c.png
>
>  Please, no! Let Xfce be independent, even if GNOME 2 refugees seem to be
>  a big target audience.
>
> > Next, is a layout similar to what openSUSE had:
> > http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
> > A single bottom panel, 24px.
>
>  I'm afraid this won't work on small screens. The main menu with menu
>  title, the pager and the action buttons menu take too much space. Try
>  this on a 14" screen and you'll see that there hardly is any space left
>  for the task bar.
>
> > So...now that I've said all of that what do you think? Like I said, I
> > was torn about jumping in as a new guy with suggestions, but I figured
> > why not...the worst y'all could do is say 'go away, your bothering
> > me'...so I did it.
>
>  I appreciate your input. It's good to see people do care about Xfce in
>  Fedora and I even agree there are some things in the review you recently
>  posted that are just bugs and we need to fix them. However it is not
>  easy to incorporate the suggestions if we stick to the standards that
>  Fedora has:
>       * Don't change a file that belongs to a package in a spin. Changes
>         need to go into the package itself.
>       * Don't change stuff that is not yours. I know that Xubuntu did
>         this in the past when they had a stripped down gnome-session
>         package that was different from the one in Ubuntu.
>       * Make sure everything can get unbranded.
>
> > Other thoughts I've had is, what other things do we do as a 'SIG'. I
> > noticed an e-mail from Rex Dieter to fedora-devel speaking of a KDE
> > SIG meeting - have we as a SIG ever had IRC meetings?
>
>  Yes, but only a few people attended and we decided to have meetings just
>  on demand.
>
> > Would there be any value? Would anyone attend?
>
>  I am not sure if there is value. I think input is nice, but what we
>  really need is people doing stuff. We had these discussions several
>  times before, for example around F15 where we had a lot of GNOME
>  refugees. We had proposals for themes and panel layouts, but it just
>  didn't happen. Nobody provided patches or code.
>
>  I am willing to give it a new try, but we not only need to meet and talk
>  but get things done.
>
> > Since I'm just now jumping in, has
> > there been other recent discussion I've missed about plans for F18?
>
>  Not really. We should draft something in the Wiki I think, on the
>  mailing list it can easily get lost.
>
> > I know Kevin has spoken of moving to LightDM,
>
>  LightDM already was planned for F17, but it was not ready by that time.
>  It's still not really, but I think we'll make it for F18.
>
> > and has included Greybird
> > as being installed by default in the spin for F18.
>
>  It is included in the spin, but it is not the default. Again, we would
>  not just change the spin but change the package and the package still
>  has Adwaita as you can see
>
> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/gitweb/?p=xfce4-settings.git;a=blob;f=xfce4...
>
>  IHMO we should stick to Adwaita, it is less 'controversial' than
>  Greybird and we should try to have a consistent look and feel across all
>  GTK based desktops in Fedora, that is GNOME, Xfce and LXDE.
>
>  There is a new GTK2 theme called Bridge [1] that mimics Adwaita and
>  AFAIK this will be merged into GNOME upstream. If we use this, we
>  finally have GTK2 and GTK3 look the same again.
>
>  Kind regards,
>  Christoph
>
>  [1] http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=151057
>
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 
Thanks for getting back to me Christoph, these are exactly the types
of answers/explanations I was looking for.

Yes I do care about Xfce in Fedora. If there is anything I can
do/learn to help make things better, I'm all ears. As for Greybird, I
wasn't trying to suggest it as default, in fact, I'm still torn on it
myself for day to day use - the Window controls for me, like you said
the Window decorations are a usability issue, and border on 'bug' with
me. I have grown to quite like the decoration listed as 'default' in
the in the appearance settings. It's nice, clean and simple and looks
nice with Adwaita.

I also didn't realize that about the Fedora logo on the application menu.

Thanks again for your feedback, and I'm here to help in any way I can.


-- 
-jayson

[Jayson Rowe]

One thing I just noticed - with the 'Fedora', 'GNOME' or 'Rodent'
icon
theme, there is no icon showing for 'Suspend' in the Action Buttons
plugin. Does anyone know what the default upstream Icon theme is ( I
was guessing Rodent)?
I'm guessing that is a bug that should be filed upstream perhaps?

[Sergio Cipolla]

On 06/29/2012 02:31 PM, Jayson Rowe wrote:
>  One thing I just noticed - with the 'Fedora', 'GNOME'
> or 'Rodent' icon
>  theme, there is no icon showing for 'Suspend' in the Action Buttons
>  plugin. Does anyone know what the default upstream Icon theme is ( I
>  was guessing Rodent)?
>  I'm guessing that is a bug that should be filed upstream perhaps?
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
>  
I think it has been dealt with. But IDK if the icon was changed or if 
it's some icon missing in the GNOME icon theme.

There's no default upstream icon theme.
If you look at the code for that plugin (xfce4-panel, I think) you find 
out which icon it uses.
Try googling that as this issue has come up before when 4.10 was released.

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 13:31 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
>  One thing I just noticed - with the 'Fedora', 'GNOME'
> or 'Rodent' icon
>  theme, there is no icon showing for 'Suspend' in the Action Buttons
>  plugin. Does anyone know what the default upstream Icon theme is ( I
>  was guessing Rodent)?
>  I'm guessing that is a bug that should be filed upstream perhaps? 
There already is a bug open for this[1]. The problem is: We cannot just
let xfce4-panel provide the icon because the name 'system-suspend' is
too generic and probably will create a conflict with any icon theme that
includes the icon.

On the other hand, icon themes will only include the icon when it is
part of the xdg icon naming specification [2]. Changing this may take a
while.

In the meantime, we IHMO should just look how the icon is named in GNOME
and patch the affected Xfce components. Together with the Fedora icon
theme we then have at least the default theme complete.

Kind regards,
Christoph

[1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817349
[2]
http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest...

[Jayson Rowe]

On Mon, Jul 2, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 13:31 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
> > One thing I just noticed - with the 'Fedora', 'GNOME' or
> 'Rodent' icon
> > theme, there is no icon showing for 'Suspend' in the Action Buttons
> > plugin. Does anyone know what the default upstream Icon theme is ( I
> > was guessing Rodent)?
> > I'm guessing that is a bug that should be filed upstream perhaps?
>
>  There already is a bug open for this[1]. The problem is: We cannot just
>  let xfce4-panel provide the icon because the name 'system-suspend' is
>  too generic and probably will create a conflict with any icon theme that
>  includes the icon.
>
>  On the other hand, icon themes will only include the icon when it is
>  part of the xdg icon naming specification [2]. Changing this may take a
>  while.
>
>  In the meantime, we IHMO should just look how the icon is named in GNOME
>  and patch the affected Xfce components. Together with the Fedora icon
>  theme we then have at least the default theme complete.
>
>  Kind regards,
>  Christoph
>
>  [1] https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=817349
>  [2]
>  http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest...
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 
Just found that there is also a bug upstream:
https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8760


-- 
-jayson

[Sergio Cipolla]

On 07/02/2012 01:38 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>  In the meantime, we IHMO should just look how the icon is named in GNOME
>  and patch the affected Xfce components. Together with the Fedora icon
>  theme we then have at least the default theme complete.
>  
xfce4-session already installs 
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/48x48/apps/xfsm-suspend.png (for the logout 
dialogue).
Maybe use it?

I wrote on the forum back when I first proved 4.10:
"The 'Action Buttons' panel plugin doesn't show any icon for the 
'Suspend' action. This using the GNOME icon theme. It seems the plugin 
wants a 'system-suspend' icon but maybe it should just use 
'xfsm-suspend' that xfce-session installs (also an icon theme that HAS 
system-suspend, Faenza, also has it with the name xfsm-suspend)."

[Jayson Rowe]

I just want to thank everyone for the discussion on this thread, and
Christoph especially for being so nice to a newcomer. It's awesome to
see so many people care about Xfce in Fedora!

Some general thoughts - I came into this as a distro-switcher. Coming
back to Fedora after a years long hiatus.
I actually feel silly now with some of the theme/layout stuff I
brought up. Really, there isn't anything wrong w/ the defaults as we
have it now, I think it was just me getting used to it...
I've even turned back on the borders on the clock and notification
area. ;-) I'm really not a tweaker - I like to keep my systems as
close to default as possible.

Like Christoph said, the biggest help would be in QA, and ensuring we
don't have any bugs for F18, obviously. Since I'm new to Fedora, is it
a good idea, or would it help to run Rawhide on one of my machines? I
have both a Laptop, Desktop and/or VM's I could use. One of my
physical machines would get more real use than a VM though.

If Rawhide is a good (okay) idea, what is the best way to get a F17
system to Rawhide. The documentation on the Wiki confused me,
honestly. I would only run it on machines where I could afford
downtime, but I'm willing to give it a shot.


-- 
-jayson

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 11:39 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
>  Thanks for getting back to me Christoph, these are exactly the types
>  of answers/explanations I was looking for. 
You are welcome, Jayson.

>  Yes I do care about Xfce in Fedora. If there is anything I can
>  do/learn to help make things better, I'm all ears. As for Greybird, I
>  wasn't trying to suggest it as default, in fact, I'm still torn on it
>  myself for day to day use - the Window controls for me, like you said
>  the Window decorations are a usability issue, and border on 'bug' with
>  me.  
Yeah, borderless windows look cool, but resizing is cumbersome.

>  I have grown to quite like the decoration listed as 'default'
> in
>  the in the appearance settings. It's nice, clean and simple and looks
>  nice with Adwaita. 
Yes, we are already using the default XFWM theme in rawhide, so it will
be in rawhide. We can still change it if we find something better.

>  I also didn't realize that about the Fedora logo on the
> application menu. 
Meanwhile I found a solution for this, but it doesn't work for all
themes.

GTK's icon look-up algorithm goes along the lines of:
     1. look if there is an icon by that name
        in /usr/share/icons/<currently-selected-theme>
     2. if not, look in /usr/share/icons/hicolor. As hicolor is always
        searched, installing icons here makes them show up in all
        themes.
     3. as last resort, look in /usr/share/pixmaps.

In Xfce 4.6, the panel menu icon was in /usr/share/pixmaps. This was
easy for us to overwrite it through our own icon in 
/usr/share/icons/hicolor, but as /usr/share/pixmaps only holds one size
of each icon, scaling it for different panel sizes was bad. If the
difference between the original icon and the requested size became to
big, the icon looked blurry

That's why Xfce has switched to different sizes of their icon and to
hicolor - just like it should be. The downside is that it's harder for
us to overwrite. If we want the Fedora logo in a particular theme, we
need to install it (or a symlink) in that theme. I have fixed the
fedora-logos package, to include an icon Xfce, but currently, this will
only be shown in some themes (Fedora and Bluecurve)

As an alternative, we could move Xfce's icon out of the way, say to the
Rodent theme only and install our icon to hicolor then. This will get
everybody the Fedora logo unless he selects the Rodent. But it's harder
to package. We need to make sure that at least one icon is always
provided, this means we not only need to add our icon to the
fedora-logos package but also Xfce's icon to generic-logos.

I will look into that, but first I need to look into fixing the
fedora-icon-theme as it has some issues with scaling, too that make the
icons look blurry. For now, we go with the Fedora logo in a few selected
themes only. Does this work for you?

>  Thanks again for your feedback, and I'm here to help in any way I
> can. 
One thing you definitely can help us with is QA. In Fedora 14 and 15 we
had a good QA process and a lot of testers. We have a tracking bug that
was blocked by all other bugs we wanted to fix for that release. I
didn't have the time to do that for F16 and F17, and that's how we
missed a few bugs.

Let's make it better with Xfce 4.10 in Fedora 18!

Kind regards,
Christoph

[Jayson Rowe]

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  <snip>
>  Meanwhile I found a solution for this, but it doesn't work for all
>  themes.
>
>  GTK's icon look-up algorithm goes along the lines of:
>      1. look if there is an icon by that name
>         in /usr/share/icons/<currently-selected-theme>
>      2. if not, look in /usr/share/icons/hicolor. As hicolor is always
>         searched, installing icons here makes them show up in all
>         themes.
>      3. as last resort, look in /usr/share/pixmaps.
>
>  In Xfce 4.6, the panel menu icon was in /usr/share/pixmaps. This was
>  easy for us to overwrite it through our own icon in
>  /usr/share/icons/hicolor, but as /usr/share/pixmaps only holds one size
>  of each icon, scaling it for different panel sizes was bad. If the
>  difference between the original icon and the requested size became to
>  big, the icon looked blurry
>
>  That's why Xfce has switched to different sizes of their icon and to
>  hicolor - just like it should be. The downside is that it's harder for
>  us to overwrite. If we want the Fedora logo in a particular theme, we
>  need to install it (or a symlink) in that theme. I have fixed the
>  fedora-logos package, to include an icon Xfce, but currently, this will
>  only be shown in some themes (Fedora and Bluecurve)
>
>  As an alternative, we could move Xfce's icon out of the way, say to the
>  Rodent theme only and install our icon to hicolor then. This will get
>  everybody the Fedora logo unless he selects the Rodent. But it's harder
>  to package. We need to make sure that at least one icon is always
>  provided, this means we not only need to add our icon to the
>  fedora-logos package but also Xfce's icon to generic-logos.
>
>  I will look into that, but first I need to look into fixing the
>  fedora-icon-theme as it has some issues with scaling, too that make the
>  icons look blurry. For now, we go with the Fedora logo in a few selected
>  themes only. Does this work for you? 
I think that is awesome. IIRC, in the GNOME (2) versions of Fedora,
only the "Fedora" icon theme gave the Fedora 'start-here' logo, any
other icon package (such as Mist, Tango, etc) would give the default
GNOME foot, so this seems like a similar solution for Xfce.

> > Thanks again for your feedback, and I'm here to help in any way I can.
>
>  One thing you definitely can help us with is QA. In Fedora 14 and 15 we
>  had a good QA process and a lot of testers. We have a tracking bug that
>  was blocked by all other bugs we wanted to fix for that release. I
>  didn't have the time to do that for F16 and F17, and that's how we
>  missed a few bugs.
>
>  Let's make it better with Xfce 4.10 in Fedora 18!
>
>  Kind regards,
>  Christoph 
Absolutely! I'm eager to help. I'm using Xfce 4.10 on all of my
machines (via Kevin's repo), and I've also switched all but one of my
machines from GDM to LightDM (via updates-testing). The one I haven't
switched is a SFF Atom Mini-ITX machine that 'thinks' it has a laptop
display in addition to the attached monitor. Although disabled within
display preferences once Xfce is loaded, the login manager thinks it's
there. In GDM, I get a blank screen, but I can move my mouse cursor to
the right until it's visible and hit enter, and the login box will
re-apper. In LightDM, I can't figure out how to force it to my visible
screen...but I'll work on that, and research some more.

I'm debating moving one of my machines (probably that same SFF
machine) to Rawhide, but since I was unsuccessful in getting a Rawhide
VM built last night, I put that thought on hold :)

Thanks again for your comments and insight.

Jayson


-- 
-jayson

[Sergio Cipolla]

Sorry about the link which seems broken now. I'll compress the ones I'm 
using and send it.

[Sergio Cipolla]

Here they are:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64670113/themes.tar.bz2
You'll notice that I edited MediterraneanNight (which I use) to have 
rounded tool-tips. MediterraneanLight has the default square ones so you 
can change which type to use by changing gtk-2.0/gtkrc and 
gtk-3.0/gtk-widgets.css (search for 'tooltips' on both files).

[Sergio Cipolla]

Howdy.
Is this part
"* Don't change stuff that is not yours. I know that Xubuntu did
         this in the past when they had a stripped down gnome-session
         package that was different from the one in Ubuntu."
that prevents using fedora-logo-icon in place of xfce-panel-menu icon 
(or 'computer' in lightdm, for that matter)?

And 'off-topic', here's an improved Mediterranean* theme the author sent 
me a while back after I asked him to make the selected items visible:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/80497678/MediterraneanNight_v1.11Beta.tar.gz

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Samstag, den 30.06.2012, 20:38 -0300 schrieb Sergio:
>  Howdy.
>  Is this part
>  "* Don't change stuff that is not yours. I know that Xubuntu did
>           this in the past when they had a stripped down gnome-session
>           package that was different from the one in Ubuntu."
>  that prevents using fedora-logo-icon in place of xfce-panel-menu icon  
Yes, that was the problem, but after looking into this a little deepeer,
I found a way to at least provide the Fedora logo in some themes (e.g.
the Fedora one, which counts as 'ours' so we change it. See my other
mail at this for details.

Please don't get me wrong, I think my initial statement sounded too
strict. Basically we can change anything -  as long as we have a
seamless, reasonable fallback. That means we must not change something.

>  (or 'computer' in lightdm, for that matter)? 
Yes, this is one of the plaecs where we cannot easily replace the logo,
because it's hard to provide an automatic fallback. I mean, we *could*
change the GTK theme that the greeter uses and then install the Fedora
logo as 'computer' in that theme, but I'm afraid we'll screw a lot of
other icons up then.

Need to investigate that, but for now I am happy it's a generic icon
such as 'computer'. When I started packaging LightDM, the icon name was
hardcoded as 'ubuntu.png' in the source code. Yes, really.

Beste regards,
Christoph

MediterraneanNight theme.

[Sergio Cipolla]

I updated the link to the improved MediterraneanNight theme and added 
two xfce-notify themes.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64670113/themes.tar.bz2

MediterraneanNight theme.

[Jayson Rowe]

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I updated the link to the improved MediterraneanNight theme and added
> two
>  xfce-notify themes.
>
>  https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64670113/themes.tar.bz2
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 
Hi Sergio,
That's a pretty nice looking theme. I checked it out a while back when
you mentioned it. I like the fact that the panels are 'dark', but not
'too dark'. It looks nice w/ the Faenza (Dark) icon theme. I also came
across a xfwm theme [1] as well that you may have seen.

Have you thought of packaging this up? Do you have contact with the developer?

Just a thought.

[1]: http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/MediterraneanNight-xfwm?content=150830
-- 
-jayson

MediterraneanNight theme.

[Sergio Cipolla]

On 07/13/2012 02:20 PM, Jayson Rowe wrote:
>  On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 9:09 AM, Sergio <secipolla(a)gmail.com&gt;
> wrote:
> > I updated the link to the improved MediterraneanNight theme and added two
> > xfce-notify themes.
> >
> > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64670113/themes.tar.bz2
> > _______________________________________________
> > xfce mailing list
> > xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce
>
>  Hi Sergio,
>  That's a pretty nice looking theme. I checked it out a while back when
>  you mentioned it. I like the fact that the panels are 'dark', but not
>  'too dark'. It looks nice w/ the Faenza (Dark) icon theme. I also came
>  across a xfwm theme [1] as well that you may have seen.
>
>  Have you thought of packaging this up? Do you have contact with the developer?
>
>  Just a thought.
>
>  [1]: http://xfce-look.org/content/show.php/MediterraneanNight-xfwm?content=150830
>  
He sent me it after I told him that selections weren't showing up (so 
one couldn't work with the keyboard). So he fixed this and sent the 
theme and said it was like almost 90% complete.

I messaged him from within gnome-look.org (all *-look.org sites share 
the same account).

The theme is very complete so he must have worked a lot on it and maybe 
just needed a break.
Then if he never updates it we may contact him.

The difference I notice in this version to the one at gnome-look.org are 
the selections showing up and it's less shiny.
Of course there may have other things as well but that's what I noticed 
most.

[Raphael Groner]

Hi,

I am currently far away from Fedora and the Xfce spin. Though, I would
also like to say something to the topic theming of Xfce.

Christoph Wickert christoph.wickert at gmail.com 
Sat Jun 30 23:15:43 UTC 2012
>  Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 11:39 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
{…}
>  Yeah, borderless windows look cool, but resizing is cumbersome.
>   
The border could be only one pixel, so the mouse pointer recognizes it.

>  > I have grown to quite like the decoration listed as
> 'default' in
>  > the in the appearance settings. It's nice, clean and simple and
>  > looks nice with Adwaita.
>  
>  Yes, we are already using the default XFWM theme in rawhide, so it
>  will be in rawhide. We can still change it if we find something
>  better. 
Personally, I like to use the theme QtCurve in Xfce. It would have
the advantage that additional/potentially installed Qt applications will
fit with a similiar look&feel.

Mageia [*] has that theme only for Gtk2. Dunno what's provided in
Fedora repos currently. There's a port [0] to Gtk3 available, as it
seems.

>  > I also didn't realize that about the Fedora logo on the
> application
>  > menu.
>  
>  Meanwhile I found a solution for this, but it doesn't work for all
>  themes. 
{…}

I don't want to say something to the logos and rebranding, in general.
This topic is a hot struggle all the time. Because I am not interested
in the details of RedHat's licence model, they would have reasons for
their decisions just like every company with a valid business model. At
least, please don't start a disaster like it happened to Debian vs.
Mozilla [1] with Iceweasel / Icedove / etc., or finally then GNU IceCat.

>  One thing you definitely can help us with is QA. In Fedora 14 and 15
>  we had a good QA process and a lot of testers. We have a tracking bug
>  that was blocked by all other bugs we wanted to fix for that release.
>  I didn't have the time to do that for F16 and F17, and that's how we
>  missed a few bugs. 
As well, I don't want to point out something about the quality of
Fedora seems to have went down in the recent releases. It's out of scope
here for this topic. Definitely, it's not due to Xfce.

>  Let's make it better with Xfce 4.10 in Fedora 18!
>  
>  Kind regards,
>  Christoph 
Yeah, I am looking forward to it. Keep the good work
going on! Thanks.
Raphael

[0] https://code.launchpad.net/~risoftwi/qtcurve-gtk3/qtcurve-gtk3
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_IceCat
[*] (Shame on me, yes. I am testing Cauldron, # urpmi task-xfce )

[Sergio Cipolla]

And just to reaffirm my view on this.
I really think this theming thing is unimportant (or almost).
IMO, if we have a minimum familiarity with Linux we will look for a 
distro's usability (how it works and can be maintained), ease/features 
of installing, no clutter (specially in 'lighter' spins).
And of course the live session must work well to give the right impression.

[Frank Murphy]

On 01/07/12 14:35, Sergio wrote:
>  And just to reaffirm my view on this.
>  I really think this theming thing is unimportant (or almost). 
+1

>  IMO, if we have a minimum familiarity with Linux we will look for a
>  distro's usability (how it works and can be maintained), ease/features
>  of installing, no clutter (specially in 'lighter' spins). 
less is more.


-- 
Regards,
Frank
"Jack of all, fubars"

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Sonntag, den 01.07.2012, 14:39 +0000 schrieb Raphael Groner:
>  Hi,
>  
>  I am currently far away from Fedora and the Xfce spin. Though, I would
>  also like to say something to the topic theming of Xfce.
>  
>  Christoph Wickert christoph.wickert at gmail.com 
>  Sat Jun 30 23:15:43 UTC 2012
>  > Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 11:39 -0400 schrieb Jayson Rowe:
>  {…}
>  > Yeah, borderless windows look cool, but resizing is cumbersome.
>  > 
>  
>  The border could be only one pixel, so the mouse pointer recognizes it. 
One can also make an invisible border by using the same color as the
window content, but the problem becomes to hit the right spot. Hitting a
single pixel is not easy.

>  > > I have grown to quite like the decoration listed as
> 'default' in
>  > > the in the appearance settings. It's nice, clean and simple and
>  > > looks nice with Adwaita.
>  > 
>  > Yes, we are already using the default XFWM theme in rawhide, so it
>  > will be in rawhide. We can still change it if we find something
>  > better.
>  
>  Personally, I like to use the theme QtCurve in Xfce. It would have
>  the advantage that additional/potentially installed Qt applications will
>  fit with a similiar look&feel. 
The QtCurve theme causes a lot of crashes and if you want qt anf GTK
apps to look the same, you better set the qt style to "GTK+" which is
included in qt already. This is easier installing an additional theme
and changing both GTk2 and GTK3.

>  Mageia [*] has that theme only for Gtk2. Dunno what's provided
> in
>  Fedora repos currently. There's a port [0] to Gtk3 available, as it
>  seems.
>  
>  > > I also didn't realize that about the Fedora logo on the application
>  > > menu.
>  > 
>  > Meanwhile I found a solution for this, but it doesn't work for all
>  > themes.
>  {…}
>  
>  I don't want to say something to the logos and rebranding, in general. 
Then don't it. Just don't. Simple, isn't it? ;)

>  This topic is a hot struggle all the time. Because I am not
> interested
>  in the details of RedHat's licence model, they would have reasons for
>  their decisions just like every company with a valid business model. At
>  least, please don't start a disaster like it happened to Debian vs.
>  Mozilla [1] with Iceweasel / Icedove / etc., or finally then GNU IceCat. 
This is a completely different thing. Debian only ships Free software
that can not only be redistributed but also modified. Mozilla on the
other hand wants to protect their trademarks, so they forbid
modifications of their logos.

As Fedora we are allowed to use the Fedora logo and nobody wants to
modify it. We are fine - as long as our packages can easily changed back
to the original look and feel.

>  > One thing you definitely can help us with is QA. In Fedora 14
> and 15
>  > we had a good QA process and a lot of testers. We have a tracking bug
>  > that was blocked by all other bugs we wanted to fix for that release.
>  > I didn't have the time to do that for F16 and F17, and that's how we
>  > missed a few bugs.
>  
>  As well, I don't want to point out something about the quality of
>  Fedora seems to have went down in the recent releases. It's out of scope
>  here for this topic. Definitely, it's not due to Xfce. 
If you don't want to talk about the Quality of Fedora, why do you do
it? ;)

And if start doing it, why don't state facts instead of vague
accusations? So if you hit a bug, please clearly describe the symptoms
and file a bug report in bugzilla.

AFAICS Fedora 17 is one of the most stable releases ever. I am running
it since it was alpha and did not experience *any* problems (except some
kernel issues that affect all releases). Just compare the list of known
Fedora 17 bugs [1] to the F15 or F16 ones [2 + 3].

Kind regards,
Christoph


[1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F17_bugs
[2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F15_bugs
[3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F16_bugs

[Ken Dreyer]

On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Christoph Wickert
<christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:>
> > The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
> > the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
> > together.
>
>  As the icons in the system tray are provided by the appications, we have
>  no control over them. E.g. gnome-bluetooth hardcodes the icon name to
>  the monochrome 'symbolic' theme and there is nothing we can do about it.
>  blueman is IHMO no alternative as it tends to break with ever new
>  release of NetworkManager. 
Hi Christoph,

I see what you mean about gnome-bluetooth hardcoding
g_themed_icon_new_with_default_fallbacks
(ACTIVE_ICON_NAME"-symbolic"). So is this a bug that can be fixed
(upstream)?

- Ken

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Freitag, den 29.06.2012, 16:43 -0600 schrieb Ken Dreyer:
>  On Fri, Jun 29, 2012 at 9:10 AM, Christoph Wickert
>  <christoph.wickert(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:>
>  >> The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
>  >> the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
>  >> together.
>  >
>  > As the icons in the system tray are provided by the appications, we have
>  > no control over them. E.g. gnome-bluetooth hardcodes the icon name to
>  > the monochrome 'symbolic' theme and there is nothing we can do about it.
>
>  I see what you mean about gnome-bluetooth hardcoding
>  g_themed_icon_new_with_default_fallbacks
>  (ACTIVE_ICON_NAME"-symbolic"). So is this a bug that can be fixed
>  (upstream)? 
I'm not sure if it makes sense, I'm afraid they won't give a fsck.

IHMO no icon should have -symbolic in it's name but only use names that
conform to the freedesktop.org icon naming spec. IN order to still get
the monochrome icons, one would just
      * create a gnome-icon-theme-symblic theme
      * rename the *-symbolic icons and put them into this theme
      * let it inherit gnome-icon-theme over it's index.theme.

GTK would prefer then monochrome icons over regular ones with the same
name. This will not only bring compatibility with other icon themes but
also give user a chance to use the regular or monochrome icons in GNOME.

Feel free to file a bug and suggest this approach, but don't expect too
much. FWIW GNOME developers only care about interoperability if it
benefits them. If not, or if they have to change something, they don't
care about freedesktop guidelines any longer - even if they were the
ones who wrote them.

Kind regards,
Christoph

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Wed, Jun 27, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Jayson Rowe <jayson.rowe(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

>  What's up everybody.
>
>  I've debated this mail for a while - I'm the 'new kid' around these
>  parts, but in a short time I've developed quite a passion around
>  Fedora, and especially the Xfce spin. I've put some thought and
>  research into this, so thanks for humoring me and reading.
>
>  As great as our spin is, I know it can be better. In reality anything
>  can be better - there should be a constant evolution of improvements.
>  I know as Xfce users, we are a smaller niche group from what would use
>  the default Desktop spin, or perhaps even the KDE spin. It is true,
>  however that Xfce is experiencing a spike in popularity lately.
>
>  Now, although I've only recently finally made the full switch back to
>  Fedora (I used RHL and Fedora through Core2 before switching) I only
>  regret not coming back sooner.
>
>  Now to the point at hand, how can we make Fedora's Xfce spin
>  first-class. I guess first, we have to define what *is* first class. I
>  loaded up different distros with Xfce in VM's and poked around, just
>  to see how they looked and felt, and my only real impressions were:
>
>  a) many aspects of panel layout/themes are very much personal preference
>
>  ---and---
>
>  b) sadly, every Xfce 'spin' I tried felt at least somewhat more
>  polished than Fedora's out-of-the box presentation in one way or
>  another...
>
>  There are tons of screenshots on the web, but here are mine from my
>  VMs (with my thoughts for each).
>
>  Xubuntu:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/xubuntu_12_04.png
>
>  So - looks nice. Greybird is my favorite theme. The wallpaper has been
>  the same for at least 2, maybe 3 releases (I think, Charlie Kraviez
>  can correct me on this I'm sure as he was one the Xubuntu Project
>  Leader).
>  I never liked the 'auto-hide' dock...in fact, I generally hate the
>  'extra' Xfce panel anyway. The Icons look nice, all of the icons in
>  the system tray match, everything looks smooth, integrated and blends
>  together.
>
>  Sabayon 9:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/sabayon_9.png
>  Although not really a 'mainstream' distro, I really only loaded it up
>  out of curiosity to see what they had done w/ Xfce since most of the
>  reviews and stuff online focus on the GNOME and KDE spins of this
>  distro. I actually kinda like what they did. A 2 panel layout that
>  could easily appeal to GNOME2 refugees, but still different from a
>  GNOME2 layout. Again, nice icons, although everything doesn't match as
>  nicely as in Xubuntu, still looks pretty polished. The default theme
>  is nice (looks to be custom to the distro, perhaps) and the use the
>  default Xfce window decorations.
>
>  openSUSE 12.2 (Beta):
>  In terms of competition for similar user-bases, I would think of
>  openSUSE and Fedora to have the two most similar potential user bases.
>  I like the single panel layout, although the icons seems stock Xfce,
>  they look nicely integrated. The mixer applet on the panel (Gmixer)
>  doesn't seem to be in our repos, but the icon for it looks nicer than
>  the faded icon w/ the blue half-circles we have w/ the default Xfce
>  mixer applet. They are using Adwaita for a GTK theme, and a custom
>  window decoration (that seems closely based on the default Xfce
>  decorations).
>
>  Linux Mint Debian Edition:
>
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/linux_mint_debi...
>  I find the GTK theme a little too 'white' (along w/ the default
>  wallpaper), but both the theme and window decorations seem to be
>  modified versions of Greybird. Green (aka Mint) icons, but all of the
>  icons match, look nicely integrated, and the system tray icons match,
>  except for using the same mixer icon we use.\
>
>  And now, we all know the default Fedora 17 look:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_default.png
>  Here I will point out mainly what I don't like: First, I don't like
>  the borders around the clock and notification area...just looks
>  unfinished to me. I also wish the Applications Menu icon were the
>  Fedora logo. I think the Adwaita theme works well (supports GTK3), but
>  the Nodoka window decorations look dated. I hate the mixer icon, but
>  like the rest of the 'Fedora' icon set.
>
>  This next screenshot is how *I* would improve the look we have now,
>  sticking with a same/similar layout:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_a.png
>  Changes? The Fedora logo for the Applications Menu, no borders around
>  the clock and notification area, and the default Xfce window
>  decoration. Before I took this screenshot, I also ugraded to 4.10, and
>  added the 'Action Buttons' plugin to the panel.
>
>  Next, I simply eliminate a *personal* pet peeve - the second, bigger
>  panel that doesn't take up the entire width of the screen. It seems
>  wasteful to me (especially with maximized windows). I also reduced the
>  top panel to 24px.:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_b.png
>
>  The next layout would appeal to GNOME 2 refugees:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_c.png
>  A second (24px) panel is added back, and a places applet displaying
>  label only is added to the top panel. Reduced the text of the App menu
>  button to just display 'Applications'. This layout looks very much
>  like GNOME2 (to me anyway).
>
>  Next, is a layout similar to what openSUSE had:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_d.png
>  A single bottom panel, 24px.
>
>  Finally, is basically what I'm using:
>  http://jaysonr.fedorapeople.org/pictures/xfce_screenshots/f17_alt_e.png
>  It's the same as the last layout, but using Greybird and the
>  Elementary icon theme. For my personal use, I'm still a little torn
>  between this and Adwaita, however I think the Elementary icon theme
>  looks SO much nicer, even that ugly mixer icon is fixed ;-) It just
>  looks more polished and integrated. I know everyone doesn't like the
>  darker grey panel look/menus etc...
>
>  So...now that I've said all of that what do you think? Like I said, I
>  was torn about jumping in as a new guy with suggestions, but I figured
>  why not...the worst y'all could do is say 'go away, your bothering
>  me'...so I did it.
>  Other thoughts I've had is, what other things do we do as a 'SIG'. I
>  noticed an e-mail from Rex Dieter to fedora-devel speaking of a KDE
>  SIG meeting - have we as a SIG ever had IRC meetings? Would there be
>  any value? Would anyone attend? Since I'm just now jumping in, has
>  there been other recent discussion I've missed about plans for F18? I
>  know Kevin has spoken of moving to LightDM, and has included Greybird
>  as being installed by default in the spin for F18.
>
>  I'm not looking to ruffle feathers, just get discussion going and make
>  Fedora 18's Xfce spin even more awesome.
>
>  Thanks for reading!
>  Jayson
>  --
>  -jayson
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 


I have stayed away from this intentionally. Xubuntu kept the same wallpaper
for two releases. Traditionally, the wallpaper has been changed for each
release, to give users something to look forward to.

Unfortunately, contrast in Xubuntu themes has almost disappeared. Greybird
was a good theme. Also, with Xubuntu 12.04, they decided the terminal needs
to be low contrast. These contrast changes make Xubuntu unusable by many. I
would hope Fedora will not follow that low/no contrast change.

I have vision issues. I can not see low contrast displays. I also need
large fonts. After six years with Xubuntu, I simply found I wanted a
change. I will experiment with different distributions until I find one
that works well for me again.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Registered Linux User # 425914
ref link http://counter.li.org/
charlie.kravetz(a)gmail.com
Don't let anyone steal your dream!

[Jayson Rowe]

On Sat, Jun 30, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Charlie Kravetz
<charlie.kravetz(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:
>  I have stayed away from this intentionally. Xubuntu kept the same wallpaper
>  for two releases. Traditionally, the wallpaper has been changed for each
>  release, to give users something to look forward to.
>
>  Unfortunately, contrast in Xubuntu themes has almost disappeared. Greybird
>  was a good theme. Also, with Xubuntu 12.04, they decided the terminal needs
>  to be low contrast. These contrast changes make Xubuntu unusable by many. I
>  would hope Fedora will not follow that low/no contrast change.
>
>  I have vision issues. I can not see low contrast displays. I also need large
>  fonts. After six years with Xubuntu, I simply found I wanted a change. I
>  will experiment with different distributions until I find one that works
>  well for me again.
>
>  --
>  Charlie Kravetz
>  Registered Linux User # 425914
>  ref link http://counter.li.org/
>  charlie.kravetz(a)gmail.com
>  Don't let anyone steal your dream!
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  xfce mailing list
>  xfce(a)lists.fedoraproject.org
>  https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xfce 

Thank you for replying Charlie, and I agree with you on all counts.
The terminal looks horrible in Xu12.04, and I _don't_ have vision
problems. Also, after 'living' with Greybird, it also presented
several usability issues for me, such as being able to tell which
window was active as Christoph also mentioned earlier in the thread),
and being able to grab the resize handles on windows.

I really wasn't suggesting a theme change anywhere, just including
screenshots to show how different distro's setup Xfce. I *did* think
there were some areas that could be more polished, but Christoph
answered most of my questions around those things also.

I really hope Fedora continues to work well for you, because I *know*
you will be an asset to this SIG.

I *do* think that Fedora can be a real showpiece for Xfce (just like
it is for GNOME). It's very, *very* close right now.

-- 
-jayson