Response to "Getting Fedora Out of the If-Then Loop"

Paul Frields stickster at
Sun Feb 21 01:06:18 UTC 2010

On Saturday, February 20, 2010, Mike McGrath <mmcgrath at> wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Feb 2010, Thomas Janssen wrote:
>> 2010/2/20 Paul W. Frields <stickster at>:
>> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 08:44:56PM -0500, Máirín Duffy wrote:
>> >> Hi Greg,
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 2010-02-18 at 17:30 -0500, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote:
>> >> > Think of it this way: every Fedora subproject, from the lowest SIG to the
>> >> > loftiest, competes for resources, to a greater or lesser extent.
>> >> >
>> >> > Like the homepage, for instance.  The homepage of, for example,
>> >> > is the subject of insanely brutal infighting, because everyone wants to
>> >> > see their baby get equal treatment.  Which is fair, btw, and which we will
>> >> > see more and more in Fedora-land as we continue to discuss issues of
>> >> > "focus".
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Attention", or "focus" if you prefer, is a scarce resource.  If you work
>> >> > on KDE or Xfce, and all of the conversation is continually around "focus",
>> >> > and it seems like that "focus" discussion continues to be "a usability
>> >> > focus on the primary spin," then one wonders "will I have access to these
>> >> > resources?"  In fact, one knows the answer, and therefore doesn't bother
>> >> > to ask.
>> >>
>> >> Those resources are not as fluid or transferable as they seem in the
>> >> abstract, though. Adam enjoys working on XFCE. Nobody is going to force
>> >> him to stop working on it - it's just not reasonable. I have no QT or
>> >> KDE app design expertise. If we suddenly decided to focus on the KDE
>> >> spin as the default spin, am I going to be expected to start churning
>> >> out mockups for KDE apps or am I going to be prevented from continuing
>> >> to work on mockups for GTK+-based apps?
>> >>
>> >> There's a reality here that's not being acknowledged, and it has little
>> >> to do with popularity. I hope folks who work on XFCE or KDE in Fedora
>> >> don't come into those projects with the expectation that the same amount
>> >> of resources are dedicated to those as the desktop spin - because that's
>> >> never been true, and I sure hope they've not been misled into thinking
>> >> so. If I go to a Honda dealer in order to buy a Chevy I saw an ad for in
>> >> the paper, I do go with the full understanding that they're a Honda
>> >> dealership and don't argue with the dealer that he should have that used
>> >> Cobalt in red, blue, and silver as well as black.
>> > [...snip...]
>> >
>> > It's important we realize this isn't just about spins or desktop
>> > environments.  It's also about the people who work on QA, release
>> > engineering, docs, marketing, testing, and so forth.  Since time
>> > immemorial we've had unresolved questions about how to resolve
>> > conflicts between how our technology moves, what should be documented
>> > by default, how QA picks targets for testing... all of these questions
>> > have been around for a while.  In part we're trying to acknowledge
>> > those issues and move on.  At the same time, recognizing those areas
>> > may have scant resources, we want to identify the gaps they create
>> > clearly.  That way, contributors *know where their help is needed*,
>> > and also have the opportunity to gather like-minded people to work on
>> > closing them.
>> Interesting. As the KDE SIG decided (IIRC it was pointed out that we
>> need that) that we do better QA for the KDE Desktop spin, i sent a
>> mail to the list introduced myself and applied for the QA group in
>> FAS. I still wait to get approved for QA. I dont want to say it's
>> because of KDE is not part of the QA work that's going on. I just want
>> to show that it's frustrating to want to do the work, already doing
>> the work (as possible), but not getting applied.
> FWIW, doing what you said you did... isn't mentioned in here once:
> Perhaps thats why you're still waiting?

Mike, I know you're excruciatingly busy, as are we all, but it is very
important especially when dealing with people who are using English as
a second language to rake the time to be a bit more verbose. To a ESL
person this message might be interpreted to mean "you're going to be
kept waiting still." I know that is not at all what you meant but it's
best to use the opportunity when you reply to point the OP to the
right thing to do. Saves a lot of time in misunderstandings.


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