Request: ban Harald Reindl from devel@

Wed May 22 18:40:06 UTC 2013

On 22/05/13 19:22, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 05/22/2013 05:41 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 17:12:58 +0000,
>>   "\"Jóhann B. Guðmundsson\"" <johannbg at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 05/22/2013 04:31 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The problem Harald isn't noise. It is his being very rude to people
>>>> frequently.
>>>
>>> One mans heaven is another mans hell.
>>>
>>> What I'm trying to say with this is that you might feel something is
>>> rude and offensive while I for example do not and even if I would
>>> think it would be rude I would still try to listen to what that
>>> individual would say then try to figure the root cause for it and the
>>> way to fix it but then again that's just how my mind works.
>>
>> I think one can really state objectively that Harald is frequently
>> very rude to people in email messages. It is probably the case that
>> this rudeness bothers some people more than others. But just because
>> it doesn't bother some people, is not a reason to let this practice
>> continue.
>>
>>> Starting to filtering people based on other peoples feeling will
>>> never lead to any good.
>>
>> Harald's behavior is going to drive some people away from Fedora.
>
> I dont think you can say that with any certainty until that left msg
> because of him finds it's way to -devel and even then it becomes a
> question if that truly is that root cause for that individual to make
> him leave Fedora or something else or even how dedicated that
> contributor that left might have been to Fedora in the first place.
>
> We in QA probably have the biggest rotation of contributors in the
> community in whole leaving few that survive a whole GA from starting of
> development to EOL so it's really hard to measure who's dedicated and
> who's not.
>
>> There is no need for Harald to be behaving like that. He needs to cut
>> the pointless insults (for example calling people stupid) and cut back
>> on the swearing. Less hyperbole would be nice as well, but that isn't
>> something I'd want to ban people over.
>
> Agreed
>
> And I personally would like us ( the community ) to avoid crossing over
> and implementing the ban barrier and the point of no return in the process.
>
>>
>>> Our community is made up of people that look differently,act
>>> differently are of different genders, are of different age and are
>>> from all over the world which are all part of the same community for
>>> different reason so where are you going to draw the line when you
>>> start doing that?.
>>
>> I am not sure where the exact line his, but Harald's behavior is
>> pretty clearly beyond it. It's not like he can't change to resolve the
>> issue.
>
> Harald's behavior is not limited to Fedora he responds in the same
> manner on other non Fedora mailing lists so this method of communication
> of his, indicates it is not Fedora specific or targeted at Fedora ( all
> thou there is a clear underlying frustration of how certain things have
> been handled which to a sense is understandable since I do believe he
> runs Fedora in his or the company he works for infrastructure which
> might have affected him financially added additional workload on him
> which can be traced to FESCO and it's member not thinking things
> thoroughly through before ack/nack various proposals and or the feature
> process ) like and it's users.
>
> It's just how that individual communicates ( on mailing list anyway
> never met him in person thus not capable of judging his character ).
>
> JBG
> _______________________________________________
> advisory-board mailing list
> advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org
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Quite frankly, if you are rude and insulting to others, who give their 
time freely to report issues, or to make things better, then unless you 
give constructive good polite criticism, with an idea for a potential 
fix attached, then you do not deserve to be anywhere near a list.

We all give our time freely to make something better or to fix issues, 
because that is how we pay back to a free product provided to us by the 
whole community.

Calling somebody stupid, is neither helpful, nor constructive, and just 
alienates your opinion, because others will think that in fact, you are 
the idiot.

Same applies to people to who belittle other people in the process of 
trying to help others with a problem. They are only trying to help 
somebody in need, as good as they possibly can.

If this chap is like this across the board, even on non-Fedora mailing 
lists, then quite frankly, he needs to realise that such behaviour will 
not be tolerated. I should also add, that I used to live in Germany, and 
Germans are quite direct, compared to many other European people, 
especially us British, who are quite sensitive to being rude.

But direct personal attacks, and slagging off, is not acceptable in an 
open forum, worst of all, apparently his posts are moderated, so he 
sends insults in private, then people RE, which then ends up on the list.

So, if it takes a removal order, then make it temporarily. Let us say 3 
months. If he then carries on, make it 6 months. And increase the ban 
span, until he gets the message.

Constructive criticism has been around for a long time in the Fedora 
community, but I have seen anyone call anyone stupid or an idiot.

Johann, I admire your desire to defend a potential victim of injustice, 
but if you would know some of the people who complained, they have a 
very well established, shrug it off attitude. But you can only push 
something so far, before you really get irritated.

I just make once request though, that we make up procedures and document 
them, so people can see why they were removed and for how long.
Warning people that, if their behaviour becomes a problem, they will be 
removed for temporary periods.

I am a great believer in carrot and stick, everyone deserves a second or 
even third chance.

Regards,
Tristan

-- 
Tristan Santore BSc MBCS
TS4523-RIPE
Network and Infrastructure Operations
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For Fedora related issues, please email me at:
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