Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and non-free software
Scott Williams
vwbusguy at fedoraproject.org
Wed Jan 22 00:33:17 UTC 2014
For my $.02, embracing FOSS has always been a distinctive of Fedora. There
are plenty of other distributions that have made compromises, but there is
a strong core of our community that has stayed active here because of our
commitment to FOSS. In my opinion, using non-FOSS is easy enough as is for
people that decide to go that route. I'm not in favor of changing our
stance on this.
Scott (vwbusguy)
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 2:12 PM, <
advisory-board-request at lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Jóhann B. Guðmundsson)
> 2. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Eric H. Christensen)
> 3. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (inode0)
> 4. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Matthew Garrett)
> 5. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Adam Williamson)
> 6. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Eric H. Christensen)
> 7. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Adam Williamson)
> 8. Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software (Jóhann B. Guðmundsson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:14:47 +0000
> From: "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg at gmail.com>
> To: advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <52DEE347.8050608 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> On 01/21/2014 08:53 PM, Christian Schaller wrote:
> > In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the
> working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,
> > or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?
>
> I think you should be more concerned if the community actually supports
> the next and wg effort then fesco breathing down yours and other wg's
> neck especially after such an attack on our foundation.
>
> JBG
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:23:55 -0500
> From: "Eric H. Christensen" <sparks at fedoraproject.org>
> To: Fedora community advisory board
> <advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <20140121212355.GF30387 at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
> > In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the
> working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,
> > or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?
>
> Really? What you are asking is hardly "every step of the way". What
> you're asking for is a rewrite of the foundation for what the Project was
> founded. You worry about losing users because we don't make it easy to use
> non-FOSS software. I worry about losing contributors when you start
> changing the beliefs of the Project. In my opinion, you haven't provided a
> very good arguement as to why we should fundamentally change what we've
> stood for for the past ten years.
>
> - -- Eric
>
> - --------------------------------------------------
> Eric "Sparks" Christensen
> Fedora Project
>
> sparks at fedoraproject.org - sparks at redhat.com
> 097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:34:52 -0600
> From: inode0 <inode0 at gmail.com>
> To: Fedora community advisory board
> <advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID:
> <CAAHfup=
> 4fbYHgQKZ70xrfosQPNbqXzzBhOwF1b7E-eq_PsHYuQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Matthew Garrett <mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 01:20:20PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, just to be sure I understood you, you want the metadata stored on
> >> a server and have it downloaded from there by the Software
> >> installation application as opposed to shipped on the ISO image? I
> >> don't have a problem with that.
> >
> > No, I mean I want the metadata to be provided by the vendor and for the
> > user to obtain that metadata from the vendor. I don't want Fedora to
> > have anything to do with that metadata.
>
> Do you object to the app going out and obtaining the metadata from the
> vendor on behalf of the user after such time as the user opts-in in
> some fashion?
>
> /me isn't endorsing that solution, just wondering how people feel about it.
>
> John
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 21:38:07 +0000
> From: Matthew Garrett <mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org>
> To: advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <20140121213807.GA10809 at srcf.ucam.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:34:52PM -0600, inode0 wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:24 PM, Matthew Garrett <mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > No, I mean I want the metadata to be provided by the vendor and for the
> > > user to obtain that metadata from the vendor. I don't want Fedora to
> > > have anything to do with that metadata.
> >
> > Do you object to the app going out and obtaining the metadata from the
> > vendor on behalf of the user after such time as the user opts-in in
> > some fashion?
>
> Yes.
>
> --
> Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:53:29 -0800
> From: Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
> To: Fedora community advisory board
> <advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <1390341209.26723.231.camel at adam.happyassassin.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 13:37 -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
>
> > Our influence with the rest of the world and promoting freedom rests on
> us having users and obviously the
> > way we have been building Fedora and the policies around Fedora used so
> far is not giving us that.
>
> This is the bit of the movie where the background music turns ominous
> and the hero is offered a choice: stick to his principles and tough it
> out, or accept the apparently small compromise in one little corner of
> his value set which will allow him to spread the rest of that value set
> to the world. Right?
>
> I think we've all seen how those movies end.
>
> I would like it on the record that I consider Fedora's current values -
> specifically, our *commitment to* (not just *preference for*) libre
> software - an immense social and technical good, I am strongly committed
> to those values, I am strongly opposed to this change (defined as 'any
> change which leads to the seamless availability of non-libre software in
> Fedora products'), and I might have to re-consider my work on Fedora if
> this change were to be approved.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 16:57:37 -0500
> From: "Eric H. Christensen" <sparks at fedoraproject.org>
> To: Fedora community advisory board
> <advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <20140121215737.GH30387 at localhost.localdomain>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-action=pgp-signed
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA512
>
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 01:53:29PM -0800, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > I would like it on the record that I consider Fedora's current values -
> > specifically, our *commitment to* (not just *preference for*) libre
> > software - an immense social and technical good, I am strongly committed
> > to those values, I am strongly opposed to this change (defined as 'any
> > change which leads to the seamless availability of non-libre software in
> > Fedora products'), and I might have to re-consider my work on Fedora if
> > this change were to be approved.
>
> +1
>
> - -- Eric
>
> - --------------------------------------------------
> Eric "Sparks" Christensen
> Fedora Project
>
> sparks at fedoraproject.org - sparks at redhat.com
> 097C 82C3 52DF C64A 50C2 E3A3 8076 ABDE 024B B3D1
> - --------------------------------------------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 13:58:58 -0800
> From: Adam Williamson <awilliam at redhat.com>
> To: Fedora community advisory board
> <advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <1390341538.26723.233.camel at adam.happyassassin.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Tue, 2014-01-21 at 13:09 -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
> > > In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the
> working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,
> > > or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?
> > >
> > Note -- this is a different question that has come to FESCo as well:
> >
> > https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1195
> >
> > The answer there is that there will probably always be a degree of
> oversight
> > from FESCo over the Working Groups. In the short term, this oversight
> will
> > be much more intrusive and "get in the way" of what the working groups
> want
> > to do. As time goes on and decisions about what FESCo would like the
> > working groups to do independently of FESCo become more apparent there
> will
> > be less of these cases because FESCo and the Working Groups will have
> > sufficient cases to be more sure of the decision making boundaries.
>
> I'd also suggest that the degree of trust and licence given to the WGs
> by FESCo is natural going to depend on what they do with it.
>
> The fact that one of the earlier actions of this WG, before producing
> anything at all concrete, is to propose a drastic dilution of Fedora's
> founding principles...does not bode well for how much others involved in
> the project are likely to trust it to act without oversight in the
> future.
> --
> Adam Williamson
> Fedora QA Community Monkey
> IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net
> http://www.happyassassin.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 22:10:02 +0000
> From: "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" <johannbg at gmail.com>
> To: advisory-board at lists.fedoraproject.org
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Revision of policy surrounding 3rd party and
> non-free software
> Message-ID: <52DEF03A.3060106 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>
> On 01/21/2014 09:23 PM, Eric H. Christensen wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 03:53:41PM -0500, Christian Schaller wrote:
> >> >In the end the main question for me is if we are prepared to trust the
> working groups to make the products they have been tasked with making,
> >> >or are we going to second guess them every step of the way?
> > Really? What you are asking is hardly "every step of the way". What
> you're asking for is a rewrite of the foundation for what the Project was
> founded. You worry about losing users because we don't make it easy to use
> non-FOSS software. I worry about losing contributors when you start
> changing the beliefs of the Project. In my opinion, you haven't provided a
> very good arguement as to why we should fundamentally change what we've
> stood for for the past ten years.
>
> Let's not forget doing so for a new software installer integrated into a
> *single* desktop environment of those many we maintain and deliver into
> the hands of our end user base but it's good to know that the
> workstation wg has already *decide* which desktop environment is going
> to be representing which is as I had expected to be from the forming of
> the wg's...
>
> JBG
>
>
> ------------------------------
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