Why I'm excited about Atomic for Fedora

Harrison, BF bfharrison at ruwachgroup.com
Mon Nov 2 18:18:15 UTC 2015


Matthew,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I did not quite make myself
clear.   I saw this post today and it is more succinct:

Josh Boyer <jwboyer at fedoraproject.org>

Oct 29 (4 days ago)
to jzb, Fedora, server, tamertas
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Joe Brockmeier <jzb at redhat.com> wrote:
> On 10/28/2015 08:21 PM, Josh Boyer wrote:
>> The *could* be the same thing,
>> except cloud-init is terrible and I hate it and if that was the single
>> offering we had for some kind of C&S WG I would cry.  I hate it
>> because it is ridiculous to use in a non-cloud environment, and Server
>> very much has that as part of it's reach.
>
> Forking this thread briefly because I think this deserves its own
> discussion.

I apologize if my rambling wasn't clear on this point.  Hopefully this
tangent is short-lived.

> Is your objection primarily to the concept of cloud-init or the
> implementation? If it's the concept, not much we can help with there. If
> it's the implementation...

Well, neither really.  Admittedly my use of the Cloud images, and
therefore cloud-init, was in attempted to boot it in a VM and log in
more like a traditional install for simple test purposes.  That didn't
work and getting it to the point where I could log in required running
some virt-tool thing to modify the image offline.  So in the context
of "Server & Cloud", where people expect to be able to log in after an
install in many cases, cloud-init makes it really hard and is
ill-suited to that kind of environment.

Specific to cloud environments, I have no idea if the hassle of
getting it setup is the norm or worthwhile.  I've been told it is, and
I can see where having the infrastructure setup to provide the
credentials already in place might make the hassle much less
problematic.

(It is also quite possible I hit a bug in the cloud image.  I tried
running the local setup to provide cloud-init with ssh keys and it
didn't work, hence the virt-tool thing.  It has been a while since I
tried again.)

> We've talked about replacing cloud-init a few times in the past, but
> there are two objections:
>
> - cloud-init is "standard" and we have an uphill marketing battle to get
> our image adopted with something else.
> - lack of a great alternative.

I completely believe both of these.

> Mike has talked about a "rich boot process" previously, and I wonder if
> we're ready to start working on that?

I'm not sure what "rich boot process" means.  I'd immediately
interpret that as "a real init process" which to me means using
systemd.  Somehow I don't think that's what you're thinking... :)

> Also, one of the CentOS GSoC projects was "Flamingo" "a lightweight
> contextualization tool that aims to handle initialization of cloud
> instances." [1] Maybe this is something we could look at for F24? CC'ing
> Tamer Tas, the student who worked on that. (It's targeted at being a
> cloud-init replacement for Atomic, so...)
>
> [1] https://github.com/tmrts/flamingo

That might be nice for "get rid of python" reasons.  If it had
cloud-init compatibility that would be even better, since people
wouldn't need to migrate their provisioning infrastructure.

josh


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> On Oct 28, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Matthew Miller <mattdm at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 08:23:59PM -0400, Bruce Harrison wrote:
>> Although I just downloaded the Fedora Cloud, I want to test it and,
>> if it is what I am looking for, let some of my customers who live on
>> DeskTone, give this a test drive from a fast thumb drive on a laptop
>> or even a modified Chromebook. These people are attorneys and real
>> estate professionals that need the dependability of the cloud without
>> Redmond controlling how they use the vehicle to get there - something
>> lean and mean.
>
> Hi Bruce. If I understand you, Fedora Cloud Base is *not* what you're
> looking for, although we may have something in Fedora. First, I know of
> several people doing their own "desktop as a service" based on Fedora,
> including at least one law firm. That might interest you as a possible
> replacement for Desktone, if that's what you're looking for.
>
> But it sounds also like what you're looking for is a hosted file /
> calendar / etc sync-and-share server — what people think of as cloud
> services like Google Drive and etc. We have several things in the
> greater Fedora universe that might fit that bill, and running ownCloud
> — possibly on top of the Fedora Cloud Base image, or on Fedora Atomic —
> might indeed fill that need.
>
> The Fedora Cloud edition downloads, however, won't give you this out of
> the box. (It might be something we want as a Fedora Server role in the
> future, though.)
>
> I think that overall, this might be another reason for demphasizing
> "Cloud" as a Fedora edition. When we use the term, we mean it in the
> sense of cloud computing — on-demand self service, broad network
> access, resource pooling, elasticity, and measured service. And the
> Fedora Cloud image is just one part of the picture. It's an operating
> system meant to run inside an IaaS — infrastructure as a service —
> cloud provider, like Amazon EC2 or an OpenStack or Eucalyptus instance
> you configure yourself (see https://www.rdoproject.org/ or
> http://www8.hp.com/us/en/cloud/helion-eucalyptus.html). You could then
> use that to build up a Platform as a Service (on which you could run
> Software as a Service), or any other "XaaS" — including file storage
> and sync. But we don't currently have a turnkey solution for that.
>
> But, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Can you explain your needs a
> little more fully?
>
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> <mattdm at fedoraproject.org>
> Fedora Project Leader
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