Two-Week Atomic actual deliverables

Victor Costan costan at gmail.com
Sat Sep 12 02:20:58 UTC 2015


On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 9:54 PM, Adam Miller <maxamillion at fedoraproject.org>
wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 6:09 PM, Victor Costan <costan at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:59 PM, Adam Miller
> > <maxamillion at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm pretty neutral on B or C. I don't really care and also don't think
> it
> >> should even remotely be a concern of ours. Not only do we not have
> >> testing for it but we don't even have the building blocks in place to
> >> work towards testing it. VirtualBox is bad and those who use it should
> >> feel bad.[0]
> >
> >
> > I think this attitude is detrimental to advancing Fedora's vision [1],
> > particularly the "widespread" in "free culture is welcoming and
> widespread",
> > and I will explain my reasoning below.
> >
> >>
> >> This is probably not a popular opinion and I'm fine with that, but we
> >> would have to install something that we very publicly speak out
> >> against in order to test this. I'm not yet ready to throw out Fedora's
> >> values for the sake of some OS X user's convenience but that's just
> >> me.
> >>
> >> -AdamM
> >>
> >> [0] - https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/10/6/317
> >
> >
> > This paragraph dismisses a lot of complex realities as "some OS X user's
> > convenience".
> >
> > First, I have little control over what my collaborators use, and I have a
> > hard requirement that I have to be able to work with them. Vagrant and
> > VirtualBox are the lesser evil I could find that lets my collaborators
> > quickly build a Fedora staging environment on their computers, and this
> is a
> > hard requirement for being able to use Fedora in production. VirtualBox
> > might be crappy code, so it violates the "First" core value [2], but
> unlike
> > the altrenatives, at least it doesn't violate "Freedom".
> >
> > Second, a user that is interested in Fedora's Vagrant images *wants* to
> > deploy Fedora somewhere. I wouldn't care about the Vagrant images if I
> > wouldn't plan to have Fedora in my production system. If I can run
> Fedora in
> > Vagrant, using VirtualBox, on an OS X development machine, then I'll end
> up
> > deploying it to many VMs or physical boxes, when I ship my software.
> >
> > For a multitude of non-trivial but boring reasons, I am stuck using OS X
> on
> > my dev machine for the near future. I use Fedora 22 in production,
> however,
> > meaning that I installed it on ~10 physical / virtual machines, and that
> > most of my computation happens on a Fedora machine. The Vagrant
> VirtualBox
> > image for Fedora 23 is currently broken, and until that gets resolved, I
> > won't be able to switch my projects to Fedora 23.
> >
> > I really, really want to use Fedora. However, if it ever gets too
> painful,
> > I'll have to switch away. In that case, my collaborators will not be
> exposed
> > to Fedora at all anymore, and my computation will be handled by something
> > else.
> >
> > Please don't dismiss people like me. I think that network effects will
> lose
> > you more users than you think.
>
> It would be great if you'd read the entire thread. I've admitted I was
> wrong and apologized for it multiple times.
>
> -AdamM
>

Sorry about that, and thank you!

    Victor
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