[Design-team] Fedora GRUB2 boot menu, from design perspective

Wed Jun 20 07:26:19 UTC 2012

On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal at gmail.com> wrote:

> To further add to my previous email, don't forget about your core user
> base. Since you are aiming for the "novice user" what happens to the
> "expert/intermediate user base"?
>
> Do you just neglect them and they just accept all the changes you make in
> order to make Fedora more "Novice friendly"?
>
> So what happens to the guy that's been doing things the way it's been done
> for 10+ years and you change it on him and he has to relearn everything all
> over again?
>
> You now just turned and intermediate/expert user into a novice user. I
> find that counterproductive.
>
Oh really? I don't see how having a submenu for older kernel versions will
make expert users need to "relearn" anything.

>
> Just shedding a different way of thinking on the matter. I respect
> everyone's contributions I'm just making my own personal opinion and voice
> heard since that what is so awesome about this community is that I can say
> how I feel and contribute my opinion while it may not be taken as "Oh my
> god this guy is so right what were we thinking?" it's definitely something
> to think about.
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:18 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Quote: "Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice
>> users, the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably
>> cause a lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know
>> what to choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.
>>
>> Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply
>> editing some configuration files."
>>
>> If you wanted to make it easier for "novice users" then why do novice
>> users have to do so much work out of the box to get stuff working? This is
>> such a minor fix for "novice users".
>>
>> "Novice users" use Ubuntu. Think about why. I understand that Ubuntu and
>> Fedora have different "religious" philosophies but this is reality without
>> getting too in the the actual "religion" of FOSS and the 4 foundations of
>> Fedora.
>>
>> Quote "Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17
>> installed?
>>
>> I think it should be Fedora $number"
>>
>> So a "novice user" would have Rawhide installed? :)
>>
>> A novice user just wants it to "work" "out of the box".
>>
>> I mean it's really that simple.
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 12:09 AM, Elad Alfassa <elad at fedoraproject.org>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 20, 2012 at 5:08 AM, Dan Mashal <dan.mashal at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Personal opinion from a longtime fedora user:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Why do I have to go to a separate menu to choose a different kernel?
>>>> Granted, I don't often have to choose an older or custom kernel but "If it
>>>> ain't broke don't fix it."
>>>>
>>>  Simply because we want to make Fedora easier to use. For novice users,
>>> the kernel versions are just noise, they mean nothing, and probably cause a
>>> lot of confusion. Especially if they dual-boot, they wouldn't know what to
>>> choose, and might actually boot an older kernel regularly.
>>> Furthermore, you can always revert to the current behaviour by simply
>>> editing some configuration files.
>>>
>>>>  2) It should just be "Fedora".
>>>>
>>> Without release number? what if you have both Rawhide and 17 installed?
>>> I think it should be Fedora $number
>>>
>>>>  3) I don't like the way the grub menu looks right now with or without
>>>> the theme. I like the old text non ubuntu/debian looking grub menu but
>>>> that's just the oldskool person in me talking.
>>>>
>>>  Well, I like how it looks with the theme, but if you don't like it you
>>> could always make your own theme to make it look like you want, or talk
>>> with upstream grub and explain to them why you think the default doesn't
>>> look good.
>>>
>>>> EOF
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> On Jun 19, 2012 1:07 AM, "Elad Alfassa" <elad at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 19, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Máirín Duffy <
>>>>> duffy at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>>>> > Hi Elad,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 18:07 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
>>>>> >> refer to this thread in -devel:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-June/168712.html
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> As I understand, by design, we wanted the older kernels to appear in
>>>>> >> the "Advanced options" menu, but right now, it breaks every time you
>>>>> >> run a kernel update.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Yeh, it definitely sounds like broken behavior. Maybe we should get
>>>>> > together with Josh Boyer and Peter Jones and see if we can't figure
>>>>> out
>>>>> > some way to have older kernels go under the submenu.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Also, the string Fedora Linux is kinda wrong, cause the OS is called
>>>>> >> Fedora.
>>>>> >> It should be something like Fedora (with Linux kernel version here).
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> What is the stand of the design team on this?
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Well, fwiw, I think you're correct, it should just be 'Fedora' (Maybe
>>>>> > Fedora + $RELEASE_NUMBER) not 'Fedora Linux.' However, I think the
>>>>> > kernel versions should be in the submenu with, if I understand
>>>>> > correctly, the older kernels listed out, but the newest one should
>>>>> just
>>>>> > say Fedora. Is that too extreme?
>>>>> Sounds reasonable. Show kernel versions only when they are really
>>>>> needed.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ~m
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > design-team mailing list
>>>>> > design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>>> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -Elad Alfassa.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> design-team mailing list
>>>>> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
>>>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> -Elad Alfassa.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>>>
>>
>>
>
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-- 
-Elad Alfassa.
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