[Design-team] design-team Digest, Vol 42, Issue 28
Daniel Alvarez Quintero
danialvarezq at gmail.com
Mon Oct 22 15:43:32 UTC 2012
Si necesitas Ayuda para un afiche para el evento en Medellín, con gusto te
ayudaría. Sería muy interesante hacer un evento de esos en Bucaramanga,
para cuando llegue Fedora 18 (11 DIC). Un día para las principales ciudad
del pais no?
2012/10/22 <design-team-request at lists.fedoraproject.org>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Jornadas instalacion de software libre en Medellin
> Colombia (CESAR FABIAN ORCCON CHIPANA)
> 2. Re: Jornadas instalacion de software libre en Medellin
> Colombia (S.Kemter)
> 3. Re: Hi all, this is Matthew Whittle (Matt Whittle)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:52:18 -0500
> From: CESAR FABIAN ORCCON CHIPANA <fabian.orccon at pucp.pe>
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] Jornadas instalacion de software libre en
> Medellin Colombia
> Message-ID:
> <CANDue+sbEN8w7d3pK2SigrqC46iuUd6jkzH=
> ym0OExgiKNoqDQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Necesito lo siguiente: título del evento, dirección, fecha y hora en la que
> se realizará el evento, organizaciones que auspician su evento y sus logos
> (el logo de tu comunidad) en .svg. Posibles temas específicos que tratará
> el evento no estaría demás, aunque no es necesario.
>
> El 21 de octubre de 2012 00:06, wilinton acevedo rueda <
> wili920503 at gmail.com
> > escribió:
>
> > Listo,perfecto ayudame con eso,quiero hacer una comunidad ya que
> empezamos
> > unas jornadas de instalaciones de software libre y solo vemos la
> comunidad
> > de ubuntu y debian, ya se estan volviendo cansonas en el sentido de que
> la
> > gente solo ve esa dos opciones,por favor si puedes o al que vea este
> correo
> > vivo en la ciudad de Medellin y la comunidad la pienso hacer en la
> ciudad,
> > todo el que este interado contacteme en este correo para hablar y
> gestionar
> > todo, gracias por la ayuda, responde este correo para que veamos como va
> > hacer el tipo de cartel.
> >
> > Wilinton Acevedo Rueda
> > wared-red.blogspot.com
> >
> >
> >
> > El 20 de octubre de 2012 21:48, CESAR FABIAN ORCCON CHIPANA <
> > fabian.orccon at pucp.pe> escribió:
> >
> > Si deseas ayuda en diseño de un afiche por ejemplo, cuenta conmigo
> >> Un saludo.
> >>
> >> El 19 de octubre de 2012 23:23, wilinton acevedo rueda <
> >> wili920503 at gmail.com> escribió:
> >>
> >>> Buenas noches señores Fedora, en mi ciudad van haber jornadas
> >>> de instalación de software libre y quisiera preguntarle que hay que
> hacer
> >>> para que estén presentes en algunas o una de las jornadas,de antemano
> >>> les agradezco por la atención por favor responder este correo en
> español
> >>> ya que cuando digo que respondan en español las respuestas salen en
> >>> ingles,hasta luego.
> >>>
> >>> Wilinton Acevedo Rueda
> >>> wared-red.blogspot.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> design-team mailing list
> >>> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> >>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> Fabián Orccón (cfoch)
> >>
> >> http://cfoch.tumblr.com
> >> http://cfoch-dev.tumblr.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> design-team mailing list
> >> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > design-team mailing list
> > design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Fabián Orccón (cfoch)
>
> http://cfoch.tumblr.com
> http://cfoch-dev.tumblr.com
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> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:06:49 +0200
> From: "S.Kemter" <sirko.kemter at gmail.com>
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] Jornadas instalacion de software libre en
> Medellin Colombia
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAKBdXudEaSCui9hsQNJSnOYWB_hMriujpH_QcrDpJUx1Avs7-A at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Please guys, as it is not really a design topic can you do this in private
> or on another mailing list where it should be. So far I remember this list
> is an english one.
>
> br gnokii
>
> 2012/10/22 CESAR FABIAN ORCCON CHIPANA <fabian.orccon at pucp.pe>
>
> > Necesito lo siguiente: título del evento, dirección, fecha y hora en la
> > que se realizará el evento, organizaciones que auspician su evento y sus
> > logos (el logo de tu comunidad) en .svg. Posibles temas específicos que
> > tratará el evento no estaría demás, aunque no es necesario.
> >
> > El 21 de octubre de 2012 00:06, wilinton acevedo rueda <
> > wili920503 at gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> > Listo,perfecto ayudame con eso,quiero hacer una comunidad ya que
> empezamos
> >> unas jornadas de instalaciones de software libre y solo vemos la
> comunidad
> >> de ubuntu y debian, ya se estan volviendo cansonas en el sentido de que
> la
> >> gente solo ve esa dos opciones,por favor si puedes o al que vea este
> correo
> >> vivo en la ciudad de Medellin y la comunidad la pienso hacer en la
> ciudad,
> >> todo el que este interado contacteme en este correo para hablar y
> gestionar
> >> todo, gracias por la ayuda, responde este correo para que veamos como va
> >> hacer el tipo de cartel.
> >>
> >> Wilinton Acevedo Rueda
> >> wared-red.blogspot.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> El 20 de octubre de 2012 21:48, CESAR FABIAN ORCCON CHIPANA <
> >> fabian.orccon at pucp.pe> escribió:
> >>
> >> Si deseas ayuda en diseño de un afiche por ejemplo, cuenta conmigo
> >>> Un saludo.
> >>>
> >>> El 19 de octubre de 2012 23:23, wilinton acevedo rueda <
> >>> wili920503 at gmail.com> escribió:
> >>>
> >>>> Buenas noches señores Fedora, en mi ciudad van haber jornadas
> >>>> de instalación de software libre y quisiera preguntarle que hay que
> hacer
> >>>> para que estén presentes en algunas o una de las jornadas,de antemano
> >>>> les agradezco por la atención por favor responder este correo en
> español
> >>>> ya que cuando digo que respondan en español las respuestas salen en
> >>>> ingles,hasta luego.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wilinton Acevedo Rueda
> >>>> wared-red.blogspot.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> design-team mailing list
> >>>> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> >>>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> ------------------------------------
> >>> Fabián Orccón (cfoch)
> >>>
> >>> http://cfoch.tumblr.com
> >>> http://cfoch-dev.tumblr.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> design-team mailing list
> >>> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> >>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> design-team mailing list
> >> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------------------------------
> > Fabián Orccón (cfoch)
> >
> > http://cfoch.tumblr.com
> > http://cfoch-dev.tumblr.com
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > design-team mailing list
> > design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
> >
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>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:57:05 -0600
> From: Matt Whittle <mattdwhittle at gmail.com>
> To: Fedora Design Team <design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> Subject: Re: [Design-team] Hi all, this is Matthew Whittle
> Message-ID:
> <CAJEf5JvUkn-TQKH7mXUTiLozy6QuAMHsPCN=CK9XCQ=
> BOF5v0g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Lailah,
>
> Ah! Totally fine. Mucho gusto! Vivi con tres hombres de Mexico, DF por
> un ano.
>
> So the idea is to take Fedora 17 and make it so that the Desktop Background
> is animated. Then take that animated desktop background and make it so you
> can interact with it. Then I would imagine if users liked it, the most
> important feature requests would come from them.
>
> To my previous email about what might happen after a Fedora 3D came out...
>
> Gimp 3D
>
> Let us entertain the idea that after the 3D Fedora came out, someone later
> decided that they did want to make a 3D Gimp. How would that function?
>
> Let's try to take Nicu's example and show how it would work in Gimp 3D.
> http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/
>
> Let's start with the toolbox to the left in the second picture on the
> how-to page. You have a panel of tools and options near the bottom. In
> the 3D world, tools are much like things you "pick up" in games. Similar
> to switching weapons in doom, you would switch tools in 3D Gimp. You would
> have your favorite 5 as one button hot keys and then for the others you
> would push one hotkey to bring up the tools list, select the tool you want
> to make active, and then use it as you normally would had you selected the
> tool on the left with the current Gimp. If you wanted to change its
> options, you would push the options hotkey and bring up the options panel,
> dismissing it when you were done.
>
> Of course, you would have to have non-hotkey ways of handling switching
> tools and getting to options. So imagine in 3D Gimp if there was a hand
> near the bottom (like in 3D games it shows you what weapon you are
> currently using, it would show you there the active tool). So if you right
> clicked that hand, it could bring up the options menu. If you left clicked
> the hand, it could bring up the tools menu.
>
> Let's talk about the pros and cons of this approach. The big pro is the
> screen real estate that is saved. The tools panel and options panel is
> brought up when needed and dismissed afterwards. The downside is number of
> clicks. If the tool is not one of your favorites, it takes two clicks to
> get there in 3D Gimp instead of one.
>
> Now let's talk about the center window. On the top of the center window
> there is a menu bar. It has been a thing in operating systems to make it
> so that one task can be accomplished in a variety of ways. If you want to
> copy, you can use the menu, or the hotkey, or rightclick on the object to
> get a context sensitive menu, etc. However, this causes a larger learning
> curve. It also causes confusion between people when one person is trying
> to explain a series of steps to another and that one person's preference is
> different than the other's. For example, the one person might say "Now
> select Edit Copy" while the other person is used to hitting Ctrl+C. That
> small bit of confusion is a small time waster and small stress factor. But
> it can happen over and over.
>
> Therefore, instead of a menu bar, they would become tools. If you wanted
> to copy, you would go to the copy/paste tool. Your hand would look like
> there was glue around it. When you copied something, a small image of the
> thing you copied would sit in your hand so you knew what was on the
> clipboard. It would also be good to persist that to disk so that it was
> still in your hand should the computer suddenly restart, but that is
> another topic. If you then wanted to, you could go to the bag tool and
> stuff the thing you copied into a bag so that you could bring it back
> later. This gives you the ability to copy multiple things. Then when you
> pasted, it would paste like normal. You could also do a drag from the hand
> at the bottom of the screen to paste. The item would remain in the hand
> just like a normal copy and paste unless you went to the tool options and
> told it you wanted it to drop what was copied on a paste.
>
> What about View->Fullscreen? This would be like in some games, you select
> an item and it uses it immediately, this tool would be one that you would
> select and it immediately used without changing the active tool in the
> hand. These tools that have immediate usage would have some kind of
> indication (maybe a dotted border) that would designate it as an immediate
> use tool.
>
> Pros and Cons. Pro again is saved screen real estate. The menu bar isn't
> needed. Pro again is less ways to do the same thing makes for faster
> learning and less stressful teaching. Con - that is a whole lot of tools.
> We're building a really big list. How do we manage this very large list of
> tools?
>
> Just like in a video game the tools you are carrying might not be all the
> tools in the game, you would not carry every tool available. You would
> have a set of tools that you carry, a smaller set that have quick hotkeys,
> and if you ever needed a tool you weren't carrying, you would go to the
> tool market. The OS itself would have a market for OS tools. Gimp would
> have a Gimp market for Gimp tools. If you wanted a Gimp tool you weren't
> carrying, you would hotkey to the market, go find the tool, "buy it"
> although they'd all be free, and then you could use it. If it was a one
> time thing, you could then just drop the tool. If you liked it, you could
> keep the tool.
>
> Let's say you just wanted to buy all the tools. You could organize them by
> hotkey layout. You could also flag them as things - such as View, Layout,
> Cool, Rarely Used or whatever you like. When you were in your tool menu,
> you could filter by those flags you created (or the flags that Gimp put on
> the tools). There would also be a search that you could type in to locate
> a tool quickly by name or flag. The main point is that the user is in
> charge of organizing their toolbox. And users who do it a lot will become
> very proficient with their setup.
>
> So we go to the wall and pull up 3D Gimp. We see the picture and layers to
> the right. You want to go to New Guide. Let's say that is not a common
> tool so we go into the tools menu. Chances are there is a Guide filter we
> can use so we filter by guide. Then we choose the New Guide tool.
>
> Let's stop there and discuss. The 3D Gimp way is 3 clicks. Tools, Guides,
> New Guide tool. There are two lists to look through - List of filters and
> List of guides. In the current Gimp, there are 2 clicks. One for Image
> and one to click on New Guide. There are three lists to look through, one
> list of menus(the bar that shows File... Edit... Select), one Image list
> and one Guides list. There is also one mouse positional menu context
> sensitive thing when you scroll the mouse down from Image to Guides. That
> scroll is actually more stressful than a click because the scroll is harder
> to control - you could accidentally move the mouse too far to the left,
> causing it to hit the Image menu again and losing your Guides menu, or you
> could be too fast and scroll to the right faster than the menu actually
> pops up.
>
> Ok, then this tool would be immediate and a new dialog box would pop up
> just like you see with Horizontal and position 800. I imagine we'd keep
> the shortcut with the horizontal or vertical ruler.
>
> To check Snap To Guides, here I would reorganize things a little. I (but
> I'm open to discussion on this) would make a View Options tool which would
> show the state of all the currently selected options and have the ability
> to change them. So I would say go to Tools, click a View filter, select
> the View Options tool, and verify my options and change if necessary.
> However, View Options might be a thing I use often so I would make a hotkey
> for it. Then I would use the hotkey, verify my options and go.
>
> Similar to New Guide, Add Alpha channel would be a tool. Tools, perhaps
> Layer or Transparency, and Add Alpha Channel.
>
> Duplicate Layer I use alot so I would have a hotkey for that - probably
> Shift-Ctrl-D (just like current Gimp has today). Otherwise I'd go to
> tools, Layer, Duplicate Layer.
>
> Then you would select the rectangle tool but going Tools, perhaps Select,
> Rectangle tool. You would draw on the screen the same way current Gimp
> does it.
>
> Invert by Tools, Select, Invert. Or Ctrl-I. Or since I use that a lot, I
> might know to select Tools, and the Invert tool might pop up where I put it
> last so I could just go Tools, Invert
>
> Tools, Edit, Cut
>
> ... and I could go on but you get the idea. The organization of tools
> would be similar to how a 3D game organizes tools. Beyond that, everything
> is the same unless we want to talk about having multiple windows open.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro>
> wrote:
>
> On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
>
>
> Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and
> have all
> the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They
> shut
> down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room
> and
> everything is ordered just like they left it.
>
> And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they
> could
> create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
>
> Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
>
> Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image
> editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/ if you wonder) so I
> needed:
> - the image editor, to capture the screenshots;
> - the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files;
> - the text editor to write the tutorial and html code;
> - the web browser to check my progress and results.
> All of them while:
> - using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the
> tutorial;
> - keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities;
> - get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
>
> Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my
> work easier in such a scenario.
>
> If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the
> walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back at
> your initial problem, long lists.
>
> Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home
> media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
>
>
> --
> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
> photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
>
> _______________________________________________
> design-team mailing list
> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Matt Whittle <mattdwhittle at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Hi Nicu,
> >
> > Awesome. Let's do this.
> >
> > Let's start with computer startup. Currently in both systems (our
> current
> > Fedora and 3D Fedora) there is nothing running.
> >
> > First we boot up email. Chances are this is a favorite so in both
> systems
> > it is easy to access. Then we boot up IRC. Chances are this is also a
> > favorite. And since they are similar in nature (internet communication),
> > lets say we put them in a room together in 3D Fedora. Let's say room we
> > get to by choosing teleport-E. In Fedora 17, you can click on Activities
> > and get a spacial list (even better than an ordered list) to switch
> between
> > activities. In 3D Fedora you would turn right or turn left to switch
> > between the two open applications.
> >
> > Ok so then let's say you read an email request from someone asking for a
> > tutorial. In Fedora 17, you go to Activities, you pick Desktop 2 because
> > perhaps that is how you like to be organized, and you open Gimp and Image
> > Editor (screen capturer). In 3D Fedora, you would teleport to a new room
> > and open Gimp and Image Editor on two walls, or if you have that combo
> as a
> > common programs, you would teleport to a room that has Gimp and Image
> > Editor already together. Let's assume that is teleport-G.
> >
> > So let's take a look at things so far. From computer startup, to get
> > here, in Fedora 17, You click Activities, Evolution and then Activities,
> > and perhaps locate the IRC app or go to Firefox. Then you switch to
> > desktop 2 and go to Activities, Applications, Gimp and the Activities,
> > Applications, Image Editor. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you to email
> and
> > IRC, teleport-G gets you to Gimp and Image Editor.
> >
> > Now you capture the first screenshot. You want to move it to a project
> > folder. In Fedora 17, let's say you open it in the Desktop 2. Let's say
> > you want to move the file into a new project folder named GimpGrid. In
> > Fedora 17, you open two windows, navigate to where you want to create the
> > source folder and create it, navigate to the destination directory,
> > position the windows on the screen to perform the drag or copy from one
> and
> > paste into the other. In 3D Fedora, files exist in 3D space. When you
> > save a file, it shows up on the floor. When you save it, you give it a
> > filename and tags. You don't put it in a folder, you give it tags. Then
> > with the File Locator tool, you can look a file up by its tags. So lets
> > say the screenshot gets named "Screenshot.png". We could then tag it
> > "GimpGrid."
> >
> > Let's say then you want to check your email. In Fedora 17, you click on
> > Activities, Desktop 1, Evolution. Then if you want to check IRC you
> click
> > on Activities, then just IRC. In 3D Fedora, teleport-E gets you back to
> > email every time. Turn right and you are at IRC. Teleport-G back to
> > Gimp.
> >
> > Now let's say we go back to Gimp and open the text editor to write the
> > Tutorial. This gets opened in Desktop 2 in 17 and in the Gimp room in
> 3D.
> > When you want to switch Activities in 17, you click Activities and get a
> > small spacial list of 3 applications to select from. When you want to
> > switch activies in 3D, you turn left or right to the walls nearby that
> > contain Gimp or the Screenshot program.
> >
> > Let's say then you find out you need to update a personal over IM. In
> 17,
> > you go back to Desktop 1 and open IM. In 3D, you hit teleport-E and open
> IM
> > on a new wall.
> >
> > Let's say you are using Firefox for your IRC. You want to open Firefox
> to
> > check the progress and results of the tutorial. You go to Desktop2 but
> you
> > can't open Firefox to because it is open in Desktop 1. So you open a
> > couple new tabs in Desktop 1. In 3D Fedora, you open Firefox on a wall
> in
> > the teleport-G room.
> >
> > Then let's say you are doing IRC, so you are on the IRC tab in Firefox.
> > You switch to Gimp and do something. You switch to Text editor and write
> > something. Now you want to switch to see the results. In 17, you click
> > Activities, Desktop 1, Firefox. Then once you are in Firefox you select
> > the tab that contains the results an hit refresh. In 3D Fedora,
> > teleport-G, turn left and hit refresh.
> >
> > Now really, we could create a 2D Fedora 18 that allows you to set up your
> > Desktops with pre-opened programs, navigate to them with keyboard
> > shortcuts, and switch between them with "turning left or right" and it
> > would be just as functional as the 3D Fedora I am suggesting.
> >
> > .....the 3D Fedora would just have a coolness factor to it that would
> draw
> > people.... as long as it really was functional and fast.
> >
> > I'm going to write another something about Gimp in a sec
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Matt
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 3:48 AM, Nicu Buculei <nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro
> >wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/18/2012 07:29 PM, Matt Whittle wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Again, someone is working on a project. They create a room and have
> all
> >>> the necessary windows for that project open in that room. They shut
> >>> down the computer, come back the next day, teleport to that room and
> >>> everything is ordered just like they left it.
> >>>
> >>> And if someone wants to take a tutorial while learning Gimp, they could
> >>> create a "learning room" where one wall is Firefox and one is Gimp.
> >>>
> >>> Wow okay I'm talking a lot. Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Just before reading your email I finished some work. I wrote an image
> >> editing tutorial (http://howto.nicubunu.ro/**gimp-grid/<
> http://howto.nicubunu.ro/gimp-grid/>if you wonder) so I needed:
> >> - the image editor, to capture the screenshots;
> >> - the file manager, to move around and upload images and other files;
> >> - the text editor to write the tutorial and html code;
> >> - the web browser to check my progress and results.
> >> All of them while:
> >> - using the IRC window to chat with the person who asked for the
> tutorial;
> >> - keeping an eye on the email for important business priorities;
> >> - get some important *personal* updated from a family member over IM.
> >>
> >> Please help me understand how a 3D game-like interface would make my
> work
> >> easier in such a scenario.
> >>
> >> If your answer is: make a work-related room with all work apps on the
> >> walls or make a room for each possible work scenario, then you are back
> at
> >> your initial problem, long lists.
> >>
> >> Your concept is more suited for something like a game console or a home
> >> media player, not for a general purpose desktop system.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> nicu :: http://nicubunu.ro :: http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/
> >> photography: http://photoblog.nicubunu.ro/
> >>
> >> ______________________________**_________________
> >> design-team mailing list
> >> design-team at lists.**fedoraproject.org<
> design-team at lists.fedoraproject.org>
> >> https://admin.fedoraproject.**org/mailman/listinfo/design-**team<
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/design-team>
> >>
> >
> >
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