Why people are not switching to Fedora

[Ankur Sinha]

On Tue, 2015-05-12 at 00:14 +0300, Elad Alfassa wrote:
> On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Ankur Sinha <sanjay.ankur at gmail.com
> > wrote:
> > I've never understood this argument tbh. Instead of us educating
> > people on *WHY* the codecs aren't provided by Fedora, I see people
> > repeatedly speaking about how not having them in Fedora is a huge 
> deal
> > breaker.
> 
> It's not the job of an OS to educate people.

But it is the job of a community, and the last time I checked, we were
more than just an OS. If the goal was just to create an operating
system that "just works" as you keep putting it, and providing it free
of charge, we'd just be Korora, not Fedora. The objective is to create
a system that "just works" while keeping it FOSS - please don't skip
out that very important clause.

> Operation systems exists to allow and enable people to do what they
> want and need in a safe, secure and efficient manner.
> 
> People are, usually, busy. If they install Fedora on a work computer,
> they won't want to waste half the workday figuring out why things are
> not working, and fixing them.
> For some people, software is a hobby, so they have the patience and
> time to mess around with it in their free time, to tweak it, to 
> figure
> out why it's not working.
> 
> Most people are not like that. Most people don't care that much about
> software, and never will, and that's fine. They want an OS that "just
> works" and let them use their computer the way they need to use it,
> without too much fiddling around and fixing issues.

> 
> >
> > While one reason is patents as someone already mentioned, the 
> other is
> > also the philosophy of FOSS - I hope it isn't just about using a 
> free
> > of charge system..
> 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Workstation_PRD
> Fedora Workstation aims to create the best-in-class operation system
> for developers. That's what it is about.
> 
> Developers probably already know what open source is - we are no
> longer the underdog. Open Source solutions are used everywhere. If
> you're a developer, chances are you already know what open source is.
> If these developers we are speaking about were idealistic about open
> source, they'd probably be using Linux already and therefore not
> relevant for this discussion... after all, we are asking "why people
> aren't switching from Mac or Windows" and not "Why aren't people
> switching from Ubuntu".
> 
> And the answer to why people are not switching away from Mac or
> Windows is simple: Mac OS X and Windows both have one thing in 
> common.
> They work. They don't require too much fiddling (especially in the
> case of OS X). WiFi works, music works, video works... and even if
> Windows or Mac required you to fiddle a bit when you started, you are
> already entrenched. Everything works. Installing, learning, and 
> fixing
> a new thing would eat away at your precious time, in which you could
> be doing something actually productive, or having fun.

All these things "work" because the patents and things that are
required to get them to work have been correctly paid for by the
vendor..

> 
> >
> > I do understand that having multimedia support is important user 
> wise,
> > and I'm more than happy to spend time trying to educate people - 
> I'm
> > not in favour of any changes that encourage people to install 
> software
> > that is not FOSS.
> 
> gstreamer1-plugins-bad-freeworld is LGPLv2+. This falls under the
> definition of FOSS. Please don't confuse software patents and
> closed-source software. They are two very different things.

For the purposes of this discussion, they're similar - we choose not
to provide either:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Forbidden_items?rd=ForbiddenItems#MP3_Su
pport

"However, Fedora cannot and does not include MP3 decoders/encoders in
order to serve the goal of providing and supporting only free and open
source software that is not restricted by software patents by default."

> 
> >
> > So, let us help the third party repository become better? Wouldn't
> > that be a good way to go to help our users?
> 
> Yes, that would be very helpful and it is certainly a way to go.
> However, previously when I offered my assistance I got no response
> from anyone who could actually point me at where to get started
> there... and as such this repository still does not have appdata
> afaik.

People are aware that an infra migration is in process there - they do
not have the same number of volunteers Fedora has - it takes time.
They've recently begun publishing the F22 tree and the migration
process will continue. A mail was recently sent to their developer
mailing list with open tasks and a message that said "please help
where you can." Unlike Fedora, where RH does pay people to handle
critical tasks and projects, RPMFusion is completely volunteer based -
their hardware, the infra people, everything - the only way we can
help them improve is to encourage more people to volunteer.

> 
> 
> > Again, it completely comes down to lack of awareness - people that
> > have bitten by the broadcom issue (even though broadcom support in 
> the
> > kernel has become much much better recently) know better than to 
> buy
> > broadcom in the future.
> >
> So you give people a choice here: "either throw away your brand new
> laptop and buy a different one, or don't use Fedora". That's not a
> good thing to do. It's safe to assume our target users already have
> computers, and that a very large percentage of them have broadcom 
> wifi
> chips. If you're a developer with a laptop supplied to you by your
> company, you might not have a choice of the type of laptop at all.

Well, it's like saying I'm travelling to the states and haven't the
right plug point - what should I do? Should I run around asking the
states to change their electrical system or should I try to figure out
what converter I need to get my system working?

> 
> Wireless chips are not usually listed in the specs. This means 
> knowing
> what you buy requires a lot of research and prior knowledge of which
> chips are "good"... Sometimes the information is not available at 
> all.
> Sometimes there are multiple editions of the same laptop with
> different wifi chips. Sometimes non-broadcom is not an option (if you
> buy a Mac, for example).
> If someone tries Fedora, and sees that wifi doesn't work, they won't
> blame their hardware (they probably don't even know what "broadcom"
> is), after all, it worked fine on Windows (or on OS X). They'll blame
> Fedora.

And we come back to awareness.

> 
> Fedora Workstation's main goal is to create a well-integrated OS for
> developers. If we keep pretending we can just ignore issues because
> they are "hard" or "complicated" then we are not doing a very good
> job.

"a well integrated *FOSS* based OS", no?

> 
> The thing is, we do have things we can do to make the situation
> better, instead of saying "no, it's our philosophy" or "this is not a
> real issue". 

I haven't read anyone write "this is not a real issue", and I
certainly haven't said that. I have said "it is our philosophy" and I
will stick to it. 

> We could enable our users to safely get codecs, for
> example. Means of doing that have been discussed in this very list in
> the past. So yes, purchasing a patent license for all Fedora users is
> out of the question... but there are other ways.
> 
> For example, including 3rd party repository definitions is still an
> option - if I recall correctly the only reason it was veto'd is
> philosophical, not legal.

Yes, certainly - which is why the alternate suggestion of helping the
third party repository improve came up. Why has that been discounted?

> 
> Or we could offer the users to purchase the Fluendo codec pack in an
> integrated and secure way. This is possible, and yes, most users
> probably won't pay, but at least it's something, and something is
> better than nothing.

I'm totally on board with this - in fact, I was looking at Fluendo
myself earlier today. If people aren't willing to pay for a service
someone else is providing, they won't get the service..

> 
> We could also have an official-ish page with less vague instructions
> on how to safely get 3rd party repo to work, with a clear disclaimer
> that this is community generated content in such a way that would 
> make
> legal happy.

Like this?
https://ask.fedoraproject.org/en/question/9111/sticky-what-plugins-do-
i-need-to-install-to-watch-movies-and-listen-to-music/

> 
> As for wifi, we could implement a pre-install check screen on the 
> live
> CD, that will warn you before you install if your hardware has known
> issues. If your only network adapter is not supported, you'd want to
> know about it *before* you overwrite your main OS. This kind of
> utility could even provide a shortlink (so you can write it down) for
> instructions on how to use your other OS to get the right drivers or
> firmware files and how to install them.

Sounds like a great idea - RFE to anaconda?

> 
> And as a community, we could try and pressure Broadcom (and similar)
> to make better (ie. opensource, in the mainline kernel) drivers for
> our OS. That sounds much more productive then blaming users for 
> buying
> the wrong thing.

I wasn't blaming the users - I wasn't blaming any one - I was saying
that they have hardware that isn't well supported, like an old phone
that cannot run the latest android - it isn't the manufacturer's fault
that the person bought the phone - the manufacturer made it to run a
certain version (for whatever reason) - not $whatever, and it isn't
android's fault that it won't run on the hardware - it wasn't designed
to. 

> 
> These solutions are not perfect. They are also not very easy, but 
> they
> are steps we can take. And I'm sure that if you think outside the box
> for a bit you can find more solutions.
> 
> We have a real potential here, let's not make it go to waste.

Again, I don't see anyone that dismissed the issue. Personally, all
I've said is that alternatives to "ignore our philosophy!" need to be
explored - and you've yourself gone ahead stated quite a few that are
worth looking into while maintaining our philosophy.

Here's another idea:
- a community contributed list of laptops/workstations in the market
that are open source friendly - maybe even a link on fp.o that says
"what system should I buy if I want to run Fedora?" 

I *think* smolt did something on the lines, but it was retired for
good reasons:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Smolt_retirement

If we can get a noticeable amount of users to stay away from non FOSS
vendors, the vendors *may* feel a bit of pressure?

Quite a few actionable ideas here! :D
-- 
Thanks,
Regards,
Ankur Sinha "FranciscoD"

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Ankursinha
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