Calling on Fedora/RedHat ML managers to clean up Fedora-list.

Tom Rivers tom at
Mon Jul 28 20:52:14 UTC 2008

On 7/28/2008 12:06 PM, Gilboa Davara wrote:
> I don't have solid numbers, but at least according to my gmail trash
> contents, around ~1/4-1/5 of the posts that were sent to -users between,
> say, Tuesday and Saturday belonged to one of the 4 "GPL" threads.

The reason I wanted to get some metrics is to make it is easier to 
understand the true nature of the problem and its impact on everyone
Using your date range of 7/22/2008 - 7/26/2008, I went back and counted 
the total number of messages that were sent to both lists:

List:  763
Devel:  275

Here are the number of total threads in both lists for the same period:

List:  72
Devel:  58

You said that there are 4 threads that are the problem.  That means that 
for the time period in question, 4 of 72 threads are what you would 
consider inappropriate.  That doesn't sound like a lot of threads to 
me.  In fact, it's about 5.5% of all the threads.  Still, that's not the 
whole picture because we need to look at the total number of posts these 
threads contain:

3 - Misunderstanding GPL...
25 - That old...
7 - A long rebuttal...
7 - Why is Fedora not free..

Total:  42 posts

That means that approximately 5.5% of the posts made in this period are 
what you consider inappropriate.  Personally, I don't think this is a 
lot of posts considering that the gripe is merely that they are 
Off-Topic and even that point is arguable.  Since they are in only 4 
distinct threads which are labeled quite conspicuously and accurately, I 
would imagine that you can avoid reading those posts quite readily.  I 
find it's a lot easier to simply not read what doesn't interest me - it 
requires a lot less effort than trying to get others to agree with my 
personal tastes in posts.

> ... And even if I'm wrong by an order of magnitude, and we are only
> talking about 10% of all the -users traffic, given the fact that these
> threads are off-topic to being with, this is way-too-much.

While I understand that some have an aversion to Off-Topic posts, I (and 
I hope many others do as well) have more of a problem with the 26 posts 
in the thread that complains about this very topic entitled "SHUT THE 
F*CK UP ALREADY...".  I think if there's any general agreement on what 
is inappropriate, that's the kind of post that cries out for 
administrative attention.

I liken this whole situation to commercial television.  Most of the 
time, not much interests me.  When I do find something I like, I have to 
put up with a far greater percentage of commercials cutting into my 
program than OT posts cutting into my email management time of these 
Fedora lists.  However, that's OK because I have learned to use my DVR 
appropriately so I can skip the stuff I don't want and watch the parts I 
do want.  Is it perfect?  Nope.  Is it reasonable?  Maybe.  Is it asking 
too much?  I really don't think so.

If people are being rude, that's one thing - they should be disciplined 
and/or removed.  If the content of the posts doesn't violate the terms 
of the list, then I'm afraid you'll be stuck ignoring them just like I 
do.  I wish there was a better answer, but taking a look at the big 
picture, it really isn't that hard of a problem to deal with if you just 
relax and read only what interests you.  There is no horrific waste of 
bandwidth, nor is it difficult to delete or simply ignore those posts 
that lack the requisite appeal.

Besides, I don't really like discussions like this one any more than you 
seem to like Off-Topic posts.  Already today, we have had 35 posts on 
the thread you started which is considerable when looking at the numbers 
of the posts you don't like over the entire 5 day period you mentioned.  
If I used your logic, then I am certainly justified to tell you to stop 
posting off-topic.

Get them to move to another list if you want to try, but please don't 
try to make a case for censoring conversations that are about Fedora and 
don't violate the terms of the lists on which they take place.  
Regardless of what your personal opinions are, it's really not fair to 
stop others from being able to read the content that appeals to them.


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