systemd: Is it wrong?

[Matthew Garrett]

On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 10:40:51PM -0400, Steve Dickson wrote:
> On 07/10/2011 09:27 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > Systemd has been through a far more elaborate process of acceptance than 
> > pretty much any other feature in Fedora history. Fesco spent an extended 
> > period of time discussing it. We even took the unusual decision of 
> > requesting that it be reverted from being the default in F14 in order to 
> > reduce the chances of it causing problems for users.
> So did that "elaborate process of acceptance" include the Fedora
> community or maybe the Linux community or possibly the Business
> community. The point being did the acceptance process include 
> people who one, will be using systemd and two people who will
> be supported their packages using systemd?

It included the people who are elected by the Fedora community to make 
these decisions, in open and publicised meetings where any other member 
of the Fedora community was able to bring up any concerns. It included 
open discussion in the project mailing lists and on Planet Fedora. It 
went through the full feature process twice. I really don't know how 
much clearer we could have made it short of calling everybody on their 
FAS-registered phone numbers and leaving personal messages. Part of your 
responsibility as a maintainer in the project is paying attention to 
things that may affect you.

> > Every time the appropriate governance bodies have asked Lennart for 
> > further information on systemd, he's provided useful feedback. He's 
> > helped anyone who's asked for advice on converting their init scripts. 
> > He's explained the advantages of systemd on multiple occasions. And, 
> > because of this, I don't think anyone who was empowered to make this 
> > decision in the first place has any qualms about it now.
> I personally find this funny... When I decided to change the 
> default version of NFS from 3 to 4 I didn't just have to answer to the 
> "appropriate governance bodies". I had to answer to the Fedora community, 
> the Linux community plus every mama and papa place that uses Fedora 
> for their company.
>
> The point being... Change is hard, as long as its for the be better.. 
> If not.. its simply wrong... 

If we didn't think it was better, we wouldn't have accepted it as the 
default. If you don't think we're competent to make that decision then 
there'll be fesco elections in 5 months or so.

But you're right. We're all answerable to the community. And Lennart has 
answered the community sufficiently often now that anyone implying that 
he's unwilling to is clearly wrong.

> > It's not reasonable to demand that people spend time reiterating things 
> > that they've said before, and inist that their code be reverted if 
> > they're unwilling to give in to unreasonable requests. That's not how 
> > the project works. It's not how any project works.
> Yes it is... If want to change the world be prepared to justify it
> every step of way.. That is exactly how projects work!

So if I were to insist that NFS be reverted to v3 by default, you'd go 
along with that?

> > The discussion you've been having regarding the disconnect between your 
> > idea of how init scripts should work and Lennart's opinions about how 
> > systemd services should work is interesting and worthwhile. I'd expect 
> > that, given time, it'll result in a reasonable outcome. But can we try 
> > to keep it at that useful level rather than insisting that things be 
> > reverted?
> > 
> I truly truly truly hope so... but at the end of the day... I 
> simply can't allow a new, untested (in a business environment)
> package destabilize a technology that is used by a large number
> of our community...

If it's impossible to make NFS work sensibly with systemd then obviously 
we'd revert it. But I don't believe that that's the case, and nothing 
you've said in this thread has changed my mind there. It's clearly 
possible to get NFS working. The question is whether it's possible to do 
so in a way that matches your expectations of how users want NFS to 
behave, and that's not an issue that results in any destabalisation.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mjg59 at srcf.ucam.org