*countable infinities only
sclark at netwolves.com
Fri Jun 15 17:31:03 UTC 2012
On 06/15/2012 12:05 PM, Jay Sulzberger wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Jun 2012, Mathieu Bridon <bochecha at fedoraproject.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2012-06-14 at 15:46 -0400, Jay Sulzberger wrote:
>>> Please forgive this top posting.
>>> I will not answer now your radical defense of Microsoft, except to
>>> say two things:
>>> 1. Your defense would apply also to the decades long fraud of
>>> Microsoft saying in their EULA that, if you do not run the
>>> Microsoft OS installed at point of sale of the hardware, you get
>>> a refund for the OS. But Microsoft and the hardware vendors
>>> systematically refused refunds.
>> No they haven't. People get their OS refunded in France. It is a long
>> and frustrating process, but with each victory it gets easier.
> No, even in France, as you state, it is not easy to get a refund.
> Even though the practice of tying software to hardware is
> illegal. What this shows is that one must be careful to
> correctly estimate the size of various forces in tactical situation.
> The relevance to the present case is this:
> Some Fedora developers argue that it will still be possible to
> install Fedora on x86 hardware which, as shipped, has only the PK
> and the PK "authorized" Microsoft Hardware Key in the UEFI. But
> Microsoft has for over a decade promised to simply give a refund
> when requested. And today nowhere on Earth does Microsoft
> actually simply give a refund when requested. Now Microsoft has
> promised to always allow the owner sitting before the machine to
> install their own key. But we know that Microsoft has
> systematically broken its promise to give refunds. Thus we
> should not accept Microsoft's promise here.
> In the case of ARM devices Microsoft's statement of its position
> is different: If the ARM device is shipped with a Microsoft OS,
> then Fedora will never be installed on the device. No putting
> one's own key in, no getting a special
> Microsoft/Vendor/Certificate-Authority managed key for the whole
> Fedora project, no nothing, just gross suppression of Fedora and
> all free OSes.
>> There's even a step-by-step guide (in French) :
> Thank you for this pointer.
> Here is a story from 1999:
> The story is partly inaccurate. In New York City, of all the
> vendors whose machines we installed a free OS on, after careful
> removal of the Microsoft OS, only Emachines gave us a refund.
> Emachines was courteous in their written response to our request,
> and prompt in sending us the refund.
>> And recently:
>> For the first time in a case related to the sale of hardware/software, a
>> judge declares explicitly that the sale of an OS by the OEM when the
>> customer never asked for it can be considered "unfair in any
>> circumstance given its aggressive characteristic". The argument, more
>> direct than ever (speaking about forced sale rather than bundled sale),
>> is usable in all Europe.
>> (quick translation from me, the inner quote is a translation of the
>> actual words from the judge)
> I am glad to see the court's clear statement.
>> Of course this is wildly off-topic...
> I hope that France enforces the law against tying of software to
> hardware. France for decades has not. Of course, neither has
> the United States of America, nor the UK, have enforced the laws
> and regulations here. Nor has any large European country
> enforced its analogous laws and regulations, as far as I am
> This is not offtopic. This is the main topic. Fedora proposes
> to support Microsoft in Microsoft's attempt to directly control
> every home computer on Earth. The same arguments that are used
> in the present UEFI case to justify truckling to Microsoft could
> as well be applied to the Refund Clause question: "Why there is
> really no problem. It is just a minor inconvenience that the
> hardware ships with an OS you do not want. See the EULA says you
> get a refund, so you just have to carefully remove the Microsoft
> OS, careful don't start it up by accident, and then you get a
> refund.". But in fact the policy of Microsoft is not to give any
> refunds, ever. And in fact in the UEFI case, no matter what
> Microsoft says, the policy of Microsoft is to make it difficult
> to install Fedora on x86 hardware, and impossible on ARM
Director of Technology
Email: steve.clark at netwolves.com
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