*countable infinities only

Gerald Henriksen ghenriks at gmail.com
Mon Jun 18 18:03:02 UTC 2012

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 10:18:35 -0700, you wrote:

>On Mon, 2012-06-18 at 09:35 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:

Much good stuff deleted.

>Fedora can deplore the situation; Fedora can state its support for
>computing devices which allow the user the freedom to install
>alternative operating system software, with reasoned arguments in
>support; Fedora can work together with manufacturers of computing
>devices which allow such freedom. But I believe it's true, and I think
>it's vitally important to keep in mind when debating this topic, that
>there is no way in which Fedora can possibly forcibly impose its
>position on anyone. It appears to be legally fine for companies to ship
>computers you can't (aren't intended to be able to) put other operating
>systems on; it is trivially demonstrable that some companies consider it
>desirable to do so in some markets; therefore said devices are going to
>exist. Fedora can take any one of several approaches to their existence,
>but simply deploring the fact and acting, in all respects, either as if
>such devices will magically cease to exist at some point or as if we can
>pressure them out of existence both seem to be losing strategies in all
>regards, to me. I also think any argument which seems to be rooted on
>the assumption that such devices are Wrong, Evil and/or Illegal _and
>that All-Right Thinking People Will Agree if we can only motivate them
>enough_ is doomed to fail. Zillions of people buy locked devices. They
>understand, in a vague way, just what it is they are buying. They are
>not outraged. They won't be outraged no matter how outraged we try to
>make them.

Very well said.

I think a lot of the trouble here is that people have become obsessed
with hating Microsoft for past issues, and need to move on.

If people are happy with Linux returning to its roots as a hobbyist
system where you have to consult online lists of what hardware is okay
to buy, and more importantly what to avoid buying, and then searching
for and reading through howto's to get things working, then sticking a
foot down and saying we will not participate in the secure boot issue
is a valid choice.

It just isn't a choice I would make.

For Linux in general, and Fedora in particular, to continue to have
the influence it does, where essentially all but a couple of hardware
makers have provided what is necessary for open source drivers, it is
necessary to both have developers and users in sufficient enough

And despite what people here seem to think Microsoft is not the
biggest threat to that.  Ironically, both Microsoft and Fedora are in
the same situation where the younger generation are more interested in
Android and iOS than they are in Linux or Windows.

Making it harder for those who do have an interest in trying Linux,
who might become the next user, or better developer/packager, by not
supporting secure boot will in my opinion be self defeating in the
long run.

Secure boot is not the biggest danger, a lack of new blood into the
Linux community is.

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