*countable infinities only

[Jon Ciesla]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
> On 05/31/2012 02:52 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>> On 05/31/2012 02:17 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:57 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:52 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:48 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:34 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:22 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:19 PM, Jon Ciesla wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/31/2012 01:10 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Gerry Reno <greno at verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Could be any of a thousand ways to implement this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it checks the BIOS to determine whether some SecureBoot flag is set.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While it pains me to argue with someone on my side— you're incorrect.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The compromised system would just intercept and emulate or patch out that test.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then what's missing here is a way for booted OS's to test themselves for integrity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe some sort of cryptographic signature stored in the hardware?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ducks>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -J
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> </sarcasm>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just not dictated by one monopoly.
>>>>>>>>>> Ideally, no.  But you see the problem.  I'm divided on the solution
>>>>>>>>>> myself, but I've yet to see one I feel better about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -J
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This game of cat and mouse with the blackhats is not going to end until we have some type of read-only partitions where
>>>>>>>>> known good code resides.
>>>>>>>> We have that, ISO9660.  Known good == known good to whom?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nah, can't be iso.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Has to be HDD partitions whose ro/rw state is controlled by hardware.
>>>>>> Which brings us back to the issue of how the hardware knows what to
>>>>>> trust for that ro/rw state.
>>>>> The hardware is under control of the user.
>>>>>
>>>>> At some point the user has to know what they consider trusted.
>>>>>
>>>>> During installation from a known good installation source: DVD, network, whatever, the user enables the install to write
>>>>> on the partition by actively pressing a hardware button that allows the write.   After the installation is finished the
>>>>> user switches it back to read-only through pressing the hardware button.
>>>>>
>>>>> The user now has a known good read-only installation to boot from.
>>>> Is there an implementation of this existing today for HDD?
>>> Not yet.  But HDD technology is changing rapidly.  Just look at hybrid drives, SSD.
>>>
>>> No reason they could not add this capability.
>> Right.  But it's not there now, which is my point.
>
> Actually it seems the forensic firms have been doing this for a while:
>
> http://www.digitalintelligence.com/forensicwriteblockers.php
>
> Their interfaces toggle the write wire to the drive.

But that's not currently available COTS hardware.

>
>>
>>>>   Because
>>>> otherwise with existing technology, AFAIK, that limits your media
>>>> choices for root fs medium to CD/DVD-R, Floppy, Zip/Jaz disc, or some
>>>> models of USB flash drive.
>>> Yes, all these would currently support what I'm suggesting.
>> Actually, if you're willing to flip a lot of switches, you could
>> probably make your / a raid5 of floppies, but the performance would be
>> suboptimal.
>>
>> -J
>>
>
> Ok, now you're just being silly.

Absolutely.

-J

> .
>
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