F20 System Wide Change: No Default Syslog
Ding Yi Chen
dchen at redhat.com
Thu Jul 18 01:00:54 UTC 2013
----- Original Message -----
> On Wed, 17.07.13 00:08, Ding Yi Chen (dchen at redhat.com) wrote:
>
> > > > that monitor /var/log/messages
> > >
> > > A) If someone is installing a program that expects this file, they can
> > > also
> > > install rsyslog.
> >
> > a) From what command they know they need to install rsyslog if they want
> > yum -y whatprovides /var/log/messages
> > gives no result.
> > If I did not follow the fedora-devel, I would not know why the
> > scripts failed.
>
> The release notes addition we suggested in the feature page tells you
> what to do.
>
> The feature page also says we'll add /var/log/README explaining the
> situation.
>
> It would be useful actually if you raised these points only after reading
> the thread, because this has been discussed quite a few times already on
> this thread.
In theory, everyone should read the ChangeLog, RELEASE-NOTES, and manual on
every thing he/she uses.
In reality, well ...
What's the percentage of your friend and family actually finish read all the
document they supposed to read?
> > b) For user that do upgrade from backup user data/scripts->fresh
> > install->restore data/scrips
> > How they suppose to know that /var/log/messages is gone without checking
> > the Release-Notes?
> > Not everyone have time to go through all the changes.
>
> If you look for the files, you should hopefully notice /var/log/README
> and understand.
>
> > > B) Fedora, RHEL, and most Red Hat derived distributions use
> > > /var/log/messages, but not all do -- for example, Rocks (common in HPC)
> > > breaks out syslog messages into individual files per facility. Debian and
> > > Ubuntu? Totally diferent. (/var/log/syslog)
> > >
> > > So, these third-party scripts need to be flexible anyway. I don't think
> > > this
> > > is a very strong point in the conversation.
> >
> > You falsely assume that:
> > a) 3rd party developers support every operating systems under the sun,
> > including all version of Windows, DOS and MacOS.
> > b) 3rd party developers aware the changes
> > c) 3rd party developers can and will diligently update their script
> > just for Fedora.
>
> Well, but it is very simple: if the 3rd party developer notices the file
> is gone, he will look for them in /var/log, and hopefully see the
> README. If he doesn't he will likely start googling. And is likely to
> find something quickly, given that notoriety of this thread.
Should I mention point c) again?
Haven't you ever heard of package been orphaned or retired?
> We will continue to make changes in Fedora. We are the distribution
> which is supposed to bring you the new stuff first. This means changes,
> this means you need to keep yourself up-to-date a bit. This is just
> another iteration of this.
>
> If you never want any changes, then Fedora is simply not the
> distribution for you. Slackware might be.
I want sane changes that does not break my system.
Not just change to for change's sake.
For example, change from Gnome 2 to 3 does look somewhat nicer,
but it break whole lots of applet,
and WM like xmonad.
That will driven away users.
>
> >
> > Don't tell me that you have not seen people writing multiple platform
> > scripts like this:
> >
> > case $OS)
> > Windows* )
> > some_windows_scripts
> > ......
> > Linux* )
> > grep /var/log/messages
>
>
> This *already* doesn't work. On Debian-based distros you would already
> have to grep /var/log/daemon.log. On ArchLinux-based distros you would
> already have to grep journalctl.
>
> I am sorry, but this is not where Unix was unified, ever.
Please update your knowledge, see:
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=428097
They have /var/log/messages, yes, it might be different with ours.
But yes, they have that.
>
> > For them: What? Fedora 20 does not work while Fedora 19 does? Blame Fedora
> > then.
> >
> > And for fedora specific 3rd party scripts, now they need to add
> > additional check logic on their script. Sometime that's just too much
> > to ask.
>
> We ask this constantly on Fedora. Because Fedora is where innovation is
> supposed to take place, not where things are stay frozen in carbonite
> forever.
Innovation should not be the cost of reliability and portability.
--
Ding-Yi Chen
Software Engineer
Internationalization Group
DID: +61 7 3514 8239
Email: dchen at redhat.com
Red Hat, Asia-Pacific Pty Ltd
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