Docs Meeting 2009-06-25 IRC log

Eric Christensen eric at christensenplace.us
Thu Jun 25 03:34:00 UTC 2009


00:00:04 <Sparks> #startmeeting
00:00:21 <Sparks> #meetingtopic Docs Meeting 25 Jun 2009
00:00:35 <Sparks> #topic Agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
00:00:41 <Sparks> Roll Call
00:00:44 * Sparks is here
00:00:47 * ke4qqq is here
00:01:16 <uclugLee> is here (still learning chat code)
00:01:32 <ke4qqq> welcome Lee!
00:01:58 <Sparks> Welcome all...  Hopefully we'll have a good attendance tonight.
00:02:00 * ianweller is kinda maybe sorta here but not really
00:02:08 * rudi is here
00:02:15 <ke4qqq> isn't someone paying you to attend ianweller ??? :)
00:02:16 * Sparks ties ianweller to a chair
00:02:26 <ianweller> ke4qqq: my internet is being fuxxored
00:02:33 <ianweller> i want to burn my ISP
00:02:34 <ianweller> but
00:02:35 <ianweller> yeah
00:02:37 <ke4qqq> ahhhh ok
00:02:48 <ianweller> so no warning on whether i'm here or not :P
00:02:56 <ke4qqq> is that excuse the new 'my dog ate my homework' ?
00:03:00 * Sparks hopes that quaid will be here so he can talk about the licensing
00:03:08 <ianweller> ke4qqq: ok you ping salina0.ianweller.org and see when it stops responding. :P
00:03:21 <Sparks> ianweller: Can we all do that?
00:03:37 <Sparks> home grown DDOS
00:03:40 <Sparks> :)
00:03:50 <ianweller> bluh
00:03:56 <uclugLee> Woohoo!!!  My name is registered now...not really sure what that means, but....
00:05:18 * Sparks gives everyone one more minute
00:05:35 <ianweller> hmm it seems like my internet is fairly stable now
00:05:36 <ianweller> whee
00:05:42 <ke4qqq> ianweller: have you done an unofficial review on ucluglee's package?
00:05:47 <ianweller> no
00:05:53 <ianweller> i should probably do that.
00:06:09 * Sparks makes a note to doc ianweller's pay for this week
00:06:12 <ke4qqq> do I nned to add it to the todo?
00:06:17 <uclugLee> Wait.......that didn't sound right.
00:06:18 <ianweller> ke4qqq: that would be extremely helpful
00:06:19 <Sparks> DO IT!
00:06:48 <Sparks> Okay... if everyone will take their seats...  we'll get started
00:06:50 <Sparks> quaid: You here?
00:06:58 * radsy is here
00:07:20 * Sparks skips the CC licensing topic
00:07:32 <Sparks> is anyone here about the shared open-source style guide?
00:07:43 <ianweller> can someone recap that for me?
00:07:50 <ianweller> i'm kinda lost about it
00:07:57 <Sparks> ianweller: as soon as someone fills me in... sure
00:08:02 <ianweller> hah
00:08:03 <ianweller> mmmmk
00:08:06 <ke4qqq> I like the idea - but man someone needs to stand up and lead it - and come up with lots of volunteers
00:08:24 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Would you like to speak about it?
00:08:38 <ke4qqq> not really
00:08:39 <pcutler> Sparks: which one?  (I'm here representing GNOME, at a docs conference 2 weeks ago we started working on a shared open source style guide)
00:08:45 <Sparks> #topic Shared open-source style guide
00:08:46 <radsy> we have our own internal style guide here
00:08:55 <Sparks> Okay... let's jump into it, then.
00:09:07 <ke4qqq> radsy: does it reference cms or ap?
00:09:16 <radsy> ap?
00:09:20 <Sparks> pcutler: What can you tell us about the style guide project.
00:09:22 <Sparks> ?
00:09:40 <rudi> ke4qqq - neither
00:09:53 <pcutler> at a docs conference 2 weeks ago, we had various free software projects, including GNOME, XFCE, Ubuntu, Drupal and BSD together.
00:10:09 <pcutler> during our hackfest on Sunday, one group started working on the style guide, which is a wip found here:  http://writingopensource.com/node/14
00:10:39 <pcutler> this is in it's infancy, so it's still really rough, and nowhere near complete
00:10:48 <ke4qqq> radsy - Associates Press - and Chicago Manual of Style
00:10:54 * Sparks wonders why I wasn't invited...  :(
00:10:57 <pcutler> i didn't spend a lot of time on it as I was doing GNOME hackfest stuff
00:11:06 <Sparks> pcutler: So what do you want/need from us?
00:11:16 <ke4qqq> radsy: any chance CES's is OPL-licensed?
00:11:39 <pcutler> Sparks: don't know yet, right now our goal is to get GNOME better integrated downstream and open communication to stuff like this
00:11:40 <shaunm> pcutler: discussing the open source style guide?
00:11:47 <pcutler> shaunm: yes
00:12:16 <pcutler> as far as they style guide, I was there, but wasn't active on that project
00:12:22 <Sparks> shaunm: If you have something to add please do.
00:12:26 <radsy> ke4qqq, i'm not sure how it's licensed, but i can probably find out for you
00:12:39 <radsy> leave it with me
00:12:40 <pcutler> one topic discussed was how to create our own version of the Chicago Manual of Style long term
00:12:42 <ke4qqq> that'd be awesome
00:12:43 <rudi> ke4qqq -- not at the moment, in fact, it's "Confidential"
00:12:51 <radsy> or that ^
00:13:02 <pcutler> "our" as in all open source projects
00:13:15 <Sparks> I guess I'm just confused about what is needed from Fedora.  I'm sure we'd be happy to participate and provide all our documentation as needed.
00:13:28 <shaunm> I saw some confusion in some places, so I'd just like to point out that the idea is not to get rid of project-specific style guides
00:14:03 <ke4qqq> they want us to participate in creation - plus fedora has an existing style guide - though it references chicago so it's incomplete in their scope.
00:14:35 * quaid slides in the back of the room
00:14:36 <shaunm> right, so any sufficiently large documentation project has its own style guide.  same happens in the commercial sector
00:15:02 <shaunm> but project style guides deal with very specific things for that project, and happily leave the general stuff to a general style guide, like CMS or AP
00:15:06 <Sparks> okay.  It would probably be a good time to get some folks working on updating our backend documents (like the style-guide and development documentation)
00:15:26 <shaunm> the idea is to make a free style guide that can be that general base for all of us
00:16:43 <quaid> certainly in the area of "is it x86, X86, etc."
00:16:51 <quaid> we do our readers a service in normalizing
00:16:53 <Sparks> Okay.  Is there anyone that would like to raise their hand and volunteer to work as a liaison and help wrangle this from our end?
00:17:15 <ke4qqq> I don't mind acting as a liaison there
00:17:30 <shaunm> and note that I don't know how we're going about this.  I'm not the one leading the effort
00:17:38 <ke4qqq> but I'd really like to see if we could get CES to release theirs under a free license.
00:17:47 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Thanks.  I'll put you on it, then.  I'd also like to be involved.  Just keep me in the loop of what's happening, please.
00:17:53 <ke4qqq> np
00:18:16 <rudi> ke4qqq -- I'll be happy to follow that up. I don't imagine that it would be a big deal.
00:18:17 <shaunm> ke4qqq: sorry, I'm not familiar with CES.  link?
00:18:27 <quaid> ke4qqq: +1 to an RHT addition
00:18:35 <rudi> shaunm, actually, ECS -- Red Hat Engineering Content Services
00:18:37 <ke4qqq> shaunm: Content Engineering Services - it's the docs team at RH
00:18:46 <shaunm> ah, thanks
00:19:01 <ke4qqq> wow - sorry for transposing the name
00:19:24 <rudi> ke4qqq - np. It's not in front of your face every day, like it is for some of us ;)
00:20:26 <Sparks> Okay, so ke4qqq is going to run with that ball.  Does anyone else have anything on this topic?
00:21:24 <Sparks> shaunm: pcutler: Thanks for helping us understand what's happening here.
00:21:51 * Sparks moves back to the first topic since he saw quaid slip into the back of the room.
00:21:54 <scramer> Im curious what style guides we have already.   the link posted a minute ago.  doesn't contain much
00:22:40 <Sparks> scramer: I think that is something we are going to have to figure out.
00:23:15 <Sparks> #topic Status on CC license discussion
00:23:25 <Sparks> quaid: Do you have an update on the license discussion?
00:23:37 <quaid> short is, I've been on vacation since the last meeting, basically
00:23:44 <quaid> so I haven't moved the needl
00:24:02 <quaid> but bonus, I just started up gnote from scratch
00:24:07 <quaid> and added this as the first to-do item
00:24:15 <quaid> I'll bounce traffic back to the list asap.
00:24:18 <quaid> <eof>
00:24:31 <Sparks> :)
00:24:40 <Sparks> cool...  Does anyone have any questions?
00:24:51 <quaid> and dependencies I need to know about?
00:26:18 <Sparks> quaid: Thanks for the update...
00:26:55 <Sparks> moving on
00:26:57 <quaid> esp. dependencies :)
00:27:02 <quaid> so moved
00:27:05 <Sparks> :)
00:27:24 <Sparks> #topic Bugzilla Component Changes - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Sparks/BZ_and_Guide_Table
00:28:10 <Sparks> So no one has really commented on this.  So if no one has anything to say about it tonight I'm going to start the process of converting or changing or leaving alone.
00:28:37 * quaid takes a quick final peek
00:28:54 <ianweller> Sparks: did you talk to translators about abandoning the translation docs?
00:29:02 <ianweller> i don't want other subprojects getting angry
00:29:12 <Sparks> ianweller: yes.  I've gotten multiple confirmation on blowing those files away
00:29:18 <Sparks> errr...  abandoning them
00:29:26 * Sparks never throws anything away
00:29:33 <quaid> it's in Trac now iirc
00:29:43 <quaid> um, two questions
00:29:59 <quaid> docs-common has tools in it that are potentially useful, may never be packaged, and are in trac now
00:30:20 <quaid> do we not need a bug component because it's not a packaged thing?
00:30:22 <ke4qqq> and many of them still needed for things like RN
00:30:52 * quaid is going to go over his alotted two questions, but tries ...
00:30:57 <ke4qqq> and older versions of documents such as the IG for F10
00:31:13 <quaid> and example-tutorial, is that supplated by create_book?
00:31:30 <quaid> i.e., if we want a Fedora-specific example, we should put it in publican-fedora, right?
00:31:52 * quaid notes there may have been some gold in xml-normalize, but it's probably supplanted by pulican, too
00:32:06 * quaid has latency, argh
00:32:07 <quaid> <eoq>
00:32:21 <Sparks> quaid: We can put anything in bz that needs to be there.  I plan on being very flexible with "our" product in bz.
00:32:56 <quaid> so, if we are doing team wide planning/task management with bz, we probably need to keep docs-common under it's new name
00:33:10 <Sparks> quaid: And I think many things are going to get "lost" because we will be using publican.
00:33:29 <Sparks> quaid: +1 to using BZ for... everything
00:33:42 <quaid> bzborg
00:34:24 <Sparks> ke4qqq: I'm not sure if I understand your statement
00:34:41 <quaid> docs-common tools are still needed
00:34:54 <quaid> for RN and F10 guides, i.e. "PP" (pre-publican)
00:34:54 <ke4qqq> perhaps I misunderstand then
00:35:18 <ke4qqq> and even the 'other dogs' that are included with RN post-publican
00:35:25 <ke4qqq> s/dogs/docs/
00:35:38 <quaid> *woof*
00:36:18 <Sparks> IMO, we need BZ components for all active items not in the wiki...  does that make sense?
00:37:03 <Sparks> If we decide to sunset a project or move it to the wiki we should get rid of the component in BZ to prevent confusion.
00:37:04 <ke4qqq> eg - we can't EOL docs-common til all of the docs that need docs-common
00:37:17 <Sparks> yes... that makes sense
00:37:37 <ke4qqq> are EOLed - which means at least another 12 months
00:37:40 <quaid> but we can rename it
00:37:51 <ke4qqq> yep
00:38:45 <Sparks> okay.  48 more hours and then I'm taking an ax to things... :)
00:39:10 <Sparks> make notes/updates on the page and let's take further discussion to the list.
00:39:13 <Sparks> is that okay?
00:39:27 <ke4qqq> worksforme
00:39:34 <quaid> k
00:40:01 <Sparks> This topic really started as a BZ clean up but turned out to be a clean up of Docs!
00:40:17 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else before we move on?
00:40:54 <Sparks> #topic CMS Update <-- ke4qqq
00:41:05 <Sparks> ke4qqq: Zikula...  talk to us!
00:41:59 <ke4qqq> so lots of modules packaged
00:42:11 <ke4qqq> a few hiccups (licensing)
00:42:25 <ke4qqq> poelcat has volunteered to take the pm role
00:42:34 <ke4qqq> but we haven't yet had an initial meeting
00:42:36 <quaid> ?
00:42:45 <quaid> I saw that traffic from John
00:42:51 <quaid> and is that just for the docs.fp.o site?
00:42:52 <ke4qqq> upstream has been very responsive to our concerns
00:42:57 <quaid> Zikula++
00:43:27 <Sparks> quaid: I think this is for getting the initial instance of Zikula up... which will be docs.fp.o.
00:43:29 <ke4qqq> quaid: no this is for other fp.o uses as well I suppose
00:43:40 <quaid> both! neither!
00:43:42 <ke4qqq> so many groups have an interest
00:43:47 <Sparks> yes
00:43:54 <Sparks> Well...
00:43:57 <ke4qqq> and so many parties are needed
00:44:21 <Sparks> infra and art are needed initially to make sure everything is... perfect (like it would be any other way)
00:44:22 <quaid> it would help if we made it clear that this is a step in a process that still includes hope.
00:44:36 <Sparks> after that it should be an easy process to get other instances up and functioning
00:44:55 <quaid> for the other teams involved; unless Infra/Websites wants to move in parallel, too
00:44:59 <ke4qqq> and I am doing a poor job of getting it all done quite honestly, though Sparks has been packaging and stuff like a madman
00:45:28 <Sparks> ke4qqq: give me keys and I'll drive us to California
00:45:37 <ke4qqq> :)
00:45:52 <quaid> this is a nice point for poelcat to step in; it's like a Fedora-ratchet, moving things along from doer to doer :)
00:46:06 <Sparks> yes
00:46:19 <Sparks> I think we'll be meeting the beginning of next week (I speculate)
00:47:21 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
00:47:56 <Sparks> #topic [[DocsProject]] wiki pages changes
00:48:00 <Sparks> ianweller: you still around?
00:48:13 <Sparks> ianweller: What's the status of getting wikibot out of the garage?
00:48:23 * ke4qqq needs to duck out of the meeting - sorry can't stay longer.
00:48:27 <shaunm> are you through your agenda items?
00:48:36 <Sparks> ke4qqq: thanks for coming
00:48:56 <Sparks> shaunm: about half way through the items... but the last half goes faster
00:49:19 * Sparks thinks ianweller is MIA.
00:49:22 <shaunm> I have something I'd like to discuss with the fedora docs team, but I don't want to interrupt your agenda
00:49:48 <Sparks> shaunm: Can you stick around for another ten min?
00:49:59 <shaunm> sure, no problem
00:50:04 <Sparks> shaunm: cool
00:50:11 <Sparks> #topic Status on Installation Guide
00:50:17 <Sparks> rudi: Any updates on the IG?
00:50:58 <rudi> Not much -- I'm working my way through the bug list and on some new material that engineers want incorporated
00:51:17 <rudi> Still hope to have a revised edition ready in the next week or so
00:51:25 <rudi> (but I think I said that last week)
00:52:15 <Sparks> :)
00:52:24 <Sparks> rudi: Cool.  If you need anything just let me know.
00:52:31 <rudi> Ta.
00:52:42 <Sparks> Anyone have anything for the IG?
00:53:20 <Sparks> #topic Status on Security Guide
00:53:37 <Sparks> Well... I submitted a new package for review.  I think he likes it.
00:54:01 <Sparks> Have a couple of open tickets on transitioning some information from the wiki over to the guide.
00:54:28 <Sparks> And I'd like to make mention of radsy's SELinux guides in the document, somewhere.
00:54:37 <Sparks> radsy: do you have anything to add?
00:54:48 <radsy> on the security guide?
00:54:51 <radsy> no
00:54:58 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
00:55:04 <radsy> it's not in my field of view right now
00:55:19 <Sparks> #topic Status on SELinux Guides
00:55:25 <Sparks> radsy: I'm guessing these are, though
00:56:16 <radsy> i'm trying to beat publican into submission with the user-guide translations, and i'm working on mysql/squid for the services-guide.
00:56:35 * Sparks offers his baseball bat
00:57:06 <Sparks> radsy: If I can help with the translations (or anything) please let me knwo.
00:57:38 <Sparks> I know that jjmcd has good experience with the translations, too (more than me) so he might be a good resource
00:57:43 <Sparks> as soon as he returns from Germany
00:58:05 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
00:58:22 <Sparks> #topic Status on User Guide <-- danielsmw & rudi
00:58:30 <Sparks> rudi: Any changes to the UG?
00:58:40 <rudi> Nothing on the radar for this one.
00:58:50 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
00:59:00 <quaid> hmm
00:59:06 <quaid> is that one being lead?
00:59:27 <Sparks> quaid: which one?  The UG?  danielsmw and rudi are assigned to it
00:59:41 <quaid> ok
00:59:56 * Sparks notes he hasn't seen danielsmw around lately
01:00:02 <quaid> sorry, was out of touch and missed that folks actually volunteered, bless 'em
01:00:09 <quaid> I thought danielsmw took an LOA?
01:00:14 <Sparks> did he?
01:00:23 <quaid> or am I discombobulating him with jmtaylor?
01:00:27 * Sparks will consult his notes after the meeting
01:00:28 <quaid> sorry Matthew if I am
01:00:36 <Sparks> Okay, anythign else on the UG?
01:00:51 <Sparks> #topic New Guides
01:01:04 <Sparks> Anyone working on or wanting to work on a new guide?
01:01:32 <rudi> I plan to work on an Installation Quick Start Guide for F11
01:01:37 <rudi> F12 rather
01:01:42 <Sparks> cool
01:01:49 <quaid> cool
01:01:53 <Sparks> step one: put in DVD
01:01:59 <Sparks> step two: press enter
01:02:03 <Sparks> step three: walk away
01:02:12 <Sparks> step four: return and enjoy Fedora goodness
01:02:15 <Sparks> :)
01:02:22 <rudi> Yeah; something very much like that :)
01:02:34 <Sparks> there may be a few steps missing in there but...  :)
01:03:03 <Sparks> rudi: Do you need anyone to help you with this guide?
01:03:27 <rudi> Sparks -- I'll know more once I have the chance to do some planning with it
01:03:44 <rudi> I hope that I'll be able to reuse/condense content from some existing docs
01:03:51 <Sparks> rudi: Okay.  Just let me know.
01:03:54 <Sparks> Anyone else?
01:04:27 <Sparks> #topic All other busines
01:04:37 <Sparks> Okay...  Who has something they'd like to talk about?
01:04:51 * shaunm raises his hand
01:05:00 <Sparks> yes shaunm!  :)
01:05:04 <shaunm> yay!
01:05:26 <shaunm> so there is a small group of people who are discussing coming together for a desktop help summit
01:05:40 <shaunm> we have interested parties from gnome, kde, xfce, and ubuntu
01:06:10 <shaunm> it's not a conference.  it's a gathering of movers and shakers to bang out some common ground
01:06:27 <Sparks> docs ground?
01:06:29 <shaunm> I would very much like it if somebody from the fedora team could make it
01:06:36 <shaunm> strictly docs, yes
01:06:56 <Sparks> shaunm: I'm sure we can fill a slot.
01:07:21 <shaunm> largely focused on desktop help.  but if people find something interested to talk about for other types of documentation, I'm not going to shut them up
01:07:31 <shaunm> *interesting
01:07:32 <rudi> shaunm -- When and where?
01:07:37 <quaid> I will caveat that being a starfish-type organization, it's hard to get one person who can speak for direction in terms of common ground ... depending.
01:08:01 <Sparks> quaid: yes... but one person can at least be the liaison.
01:08:15 <quaid> my experience is we all get together in person and have great ideas, but moving those through the projects is different.
01:08:20 <shaunm> quaid: perfectly understood.  but somebody who's involved with the fedora team can bring perspective that the rest of us don't have
01:08:33 <shaunm> nod
01:08:40 <quaid> I'm curious what thought there is toward virtual and widely inclusive v. physical and therefore exclusive?
01:09:21 <shaunm> so I've offered to organize and host the event, and if I organize it, it will be in Champaign, IL, US
01:09:35 <shaunm> and people seem to be perfectly happy to let me do that
01:09:47 <shaunm> we're tentatively talking about august 21-23
01:09:54 <shaunm> (I realize it's rather short notice)
01:10:50 <Sparks> shaunm: Can you send me a message to sparks at fedoraproject.org with the details, please?
01:10:58 <shaunm> yessir
01:11:31 <Sparks> I'll forward the information to the list so we can figure it out on our end.
01:11:40 <shaunm> great
01:12:21 <Sparks> Anyone have anything else?
01:13:35 <Sparks> 5
01:13:38 <Sparks> 4
01:13:39 <scramer> thank you
01:13:42 <Sparks> 3
01:13:45 <Sparks> scramer: no problem
01:13:48 <Sparks> 2
01:13:50 <Sparks> 1
01:13:57 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming!
01:14:00 <Sparks> #endmeeting
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