Docs team IRC log 20090312

Karsten Wade kwade at
Thu Mar 12 02:02:44 UTC 2009

Wiki formatted:

Raw log attached.

- Karsten
Karsten 'quaid' Wade, Community Gardener
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17:05  * quaid looks around
17:05  * jjmcd is here
17:05  * radsy here
17:05  * laubersm is sort of here
17:05 < kirkz> kirkz is her
17:05 -!- ryanlerch [n=rlerch at nat/redhat/x-5df7f47308d67817] has joined #fedora-meeting
17:05 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg
17:05 < jjmcd> GM ryanlerch
17:05 < quaid> <meeting id="Docs team">
17:05 -!- mdious [n=mmcallis at nat/redhat/x-e94a24b95a20cf90] has joined #fedora-meeting
17:05  * ke4qqq pretends to be here
17:06  * quaid reloading browser, if someone else has a link to the agenda handy ...
17:07  * ryanlerch is here
17:07 < mdious> here
17:08 < quaid> ok, I'm agenda less
17:08 < quaid> I know release notes were a hot topic
17:08 < kirkz>
17:08 < quaid> last night there was some solution thinking done to figure out how to get Fedora-legal packages from Publican
17:10 -!- rudi [n=rlandman at nat/redhat/x-0301dda83f4e389b] has joined #fedora-meeting
17:10 < jjmcd> I have a hack, now I need somebody who knows what he is doing to tell me if there is anything wrong
17:10 < ianweller> oh hi
17:10 < jjmcd> The resulting package installs ok, passes rpmlint, and meets the guidelines as best i can tell
17:10 < jjmcd>
17:11 < jjmcd> But I know zip about packaging so there could be horrible monsters hiding there
17:13 < quaid> hmm
17:13 < quaid> this is one that is probably worth explaining in detail
17:13 < quaid> to the mailing list
17:13 < quaid> and seeking feedback that way.
17:13 < jjmcd> That might be a plan
17:13 < quaid> otherwise we'll spend this whole meeting in technojungle
17:13 < jjmcd> yah
17:14 -!- nman64 is now known as nman64_away
17:15 < quaid> ah, now I see agenda
17:15 < quaid> well, are there any questions on this item?
17:16 < mdious> radsy: does <> help you?
17:17 < radsy> mdious, yes it looks good, but not knowing a lot about packaging,  feedback from someone who works more closely with packaging would be valuable
17:17 < laubersm> quaid,  As I understand it - Rel Notes have a deliverable soon - how can those of us not already involved help?
17:17 -!- themayor [n=jack at] has quit []
17:17 < ryanlerch> laubersm: we need writers
17:18 -!- stickster [n=npfrield at fedora/stickster] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
17:18 < quaid> jjmcd: ok, can you send that email to the list?
17:18 < jjmcd> Yes I will
17:18 < quaid> hey, stickster, don't go now!
17:18 < laubersm> ryanlerch, in wiki? research can content or wordsmithing and proofreading
17:18  * laubersm expects both
17:18 -!- quaid changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Docs mtg -- Release notes: i) Beta deliverable discussion; ii) process discussion
17:19 < jjmcd> research more thanwordsmithing
17:19 < quaid> so, yeah, the Beta one-page is next due ...
17:19 < jjmcd> Especially it seems like the more technical beats - kernel, arch-specific, like that
17:19 < quaid>
17:20 < jjmcd> quaid: is that much more than an edit to the alpha?
17:20 < quaid> Mon 2009-03-23
17:20 < quaid> jjmcd: well ..
17:20 < quaid> take Alpha, make new page
17:20 < quaid> check features, see if there is content to mention/migrate
17:20 < quaid> check beats, see if there is content to mention/migrate
17:20 < quaid> post to f-devel-l and say, hey, the Beta page is open, put stuff there
17:21 < quaid> make sure it is edited by ~22 March :)
17:21 < quaid> so a repeat of the Alpha process, just easier since the page exists.
17:21 < jjmcd> hehe - there is one heck of a lot of content, whether it is worth mentioning depends on who you are
17:22 -!- stickster [n=pfrields at] has joined #fedora-meeting
17:23 < jjmcd> If you're a developer, gcc is a big deal, if you're not, who cares
17:24 < quaid> well, it's a one page
17:24 < quaid> not a preview of the big notes
17:24 < jjmcd> yep
17:24 < stickster> jjmcd: I've been hearing radio silence since about 0007 UTC -- but I think my server fell over without me knowing it.
17:24 < quaid> you can link to the beats in progress, for example
17:24 < quaid> stickster: yep
17:24 < stickster> If I missed stuff, can someone pastebin it for me?
17:25 < quaid> stickster: sure, I will, just a moment
17:25 < radsy> what's the last thing you saw?
17:25 < stickster> Nothing since 0000 UTC other than me yapping
17:25 < quaid> stickster:
17:25 < stickster> Thanks quaid
17:26 < quaid> ok, that cutoff the "I'm here"
17:26  * ianweller goes for dinner, sorry
17:26 < quaid> and I just discovered I need to do a child pick-up, zapped by the time change
17:26 < quaid> stickster: can you takeover with "relnotes process" talk?
17:26 < quaid> after you catch up :)
17:27 < stickster> OK
17:27 < quaid> ok, brb
17:27 < ryanlerch> where is Sparks?
17:27 < jjmcd> net probs
17:27 < stickster> *: OK, it looks like quaid explained the Beta relnotes one-page
17:28 < stickster> At this time, we should also be starting to make sure we know beat assignments, ask for developers and community people to help shore up beats that have no assigned persons
17:29 < stickster> I haven't seen the docs-list since yesterday -- did anyone read my schedule?
17:29 < stickster> s/my/the excerpted/
17:30 < jjmcd> I scanned it and didn't see any surprises, i think we were all a little shell shocked after last night
17:30 < stickster> What happened last night?
17:30 < jjmcd> phone conf where we learned about publican probs
17:30 < jjmcd> the ones i'm trying to sort
17:30 < stickster> Uh
17:31 < stickster> Can I read about these somewhere?
17:31 < jjmcd> I don't think Sparks wrote it down, I posted a hack on the wiki basically
17:31 < jjmcd> publican makes rpms that won't pass review
17:32 < stickster> Ah, OK, that's been a continuing problem, and I recall that bug.
17:32 < jjmcd> Sparks can get a good rpm by hacking publican, but that is obvioulsy a prob
17:32 < jjmcd> so i am looking at a post process
17:32 < mdious> he could submit a patch and make a new option... "make fedora-srpm...."
17:32 < jjmcd> The prob is making it an option is hard
17:32 < jjmcd> and changing it breaks it for RH
17:33 < stickster> mdious: Making it an option should only be a Makefile change, right?
17:33 < stickster> It just needs a make rule?
17:34 < mdious> stickster: in the templates I think...if you use strace i believe the little makefile with each book pulls in the 'big ones'
17:34 < mdious> just a sec...bugging someone about
17:34 < mdious> it
17:34 < stickster> mdious: That's how I understand it. That's just how ours worked too.
17:34 < mdious> i think the issue is how ot make a desktop file that won't break on other distros
17:35 < jjmcd> I couldn't see much in the publican desktop file different from the packaging guidelines
17:35 < mdious> someone is thinking about the desktop file issue...
17:35 < stickster> Is the problem the .desktop file or the .spec file here?
17:35 < jjmcd> both
17:35 < stickster> OK, I see two problems here right now.
17:35 < ke4qqq> but the packaging guidelines say that if anything is changed in .desktop you need to create a new one
17:36 < jjmcd> the package gets the wrong name
17:36 < mdious>
17:36  * stickster steps back for a sec
17:37 < stickster> The last mention I see of this bug was quite a while ago on the docs list.
17:37 < stickster> If we want people to help or participate we need to see the discussion there
17:37 -!- fab [n=bellet at] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:37 < jjmcd> I think Sparks thought someone would deal with it back in Jan, and was giving him some time
17:38 < mdious> perhaps since the second last comment is about a patch, someone is waiting for a patch?
17:38 < ke4qqq> last I heard in a meeting someone was tasked with finding out what the packaging guideline differences were and why RH and Fedora have different guidelines. at least that's the last I recall seeing.
17:38 < stickster> ke4qqq: Do you remember who was tasked with that?
17:39 < mdious> quaid
17:39 < ke4qqq> I at least remember quaid was asking the question - he may well have taken the task
17:39  * quaid sticks his head in from the community center
17:40 < stickster> We're kind of off in the weeds here, but quaid, take a look at the above.
17:40 < stickster> Let's go back to release notes now.
17:40 < quaid> nope, I didn't take that task.
17:40 < stickster> quaid: OK
17:40 < mdious> i think you did
17:40 < stickster> jjmcd: Can you take the task of (1) finding out who took that task, and (2) reporting it to the fedora-docs-list?
17:41 < quaid> what is happening, once again we approach zero hour and no one has cared enough to make Publican work for Fedora.
17:41 < jjmcd> roger
17:41 < quaid> mdious: hmm, well, if I did, it was probably a mistake :)
17:41 < mdious> quaid: I'll find the link...i want to confirm I'm not going insane ;)
17:42 < stickster> Let's leave the tooling aside for a bit.
17:42 < stickster> Let's talk about the release notes process.
17:42 < stickster> Tooling is important, I'm not denying that -- but we set this meeting up to help people understand this process and I want to make sure we hit that target if possible.
17:43 < stickster> I'm getting the feeling that people didn't have a chance to review the schedule highlights I sent.
17:43 < stickster>
17:44 < stickster> Here's basically how things work.  We have essentially two different "flavors" of release notes during a release cycle.  First, there's the one-sheets.  Second, there's the full-blown compendium.
17:44 < stickster> The one-sheets are used for the Alpha and Beta release.
17:44 < stickster> The compendium is created first for the Preview Release, then polished again for the GA, and then we prepare a zero-day update to catch things that didn't make it for the GA spin.
17:45 < stickster> Does this make sense so far?
17:45 < radsy> yep
17:45 < jjmcd> I assume for alpha and beta we also make an rpm to invlude in the package
17:45 < kirkz> what's GA?
17:45 < stickster> General Availability
17:45 < stickster> i.e. Final
17:45 < stickster> or "gold"
17:46 < stickster> That's the one that gets printed up, put on our download mirrors, torrents, etc.
17:46 < stickster> jjmcd: No, one sheets for Alpha and Beta are not packaged.
17:46 < stickster> They are only written on the wiki.
17:46 < jjmcd> OK...  that simplifies it a bit
17:46 < stickster> The Alpha and Beta one-sheets are created there because things are too much in flux to bother with a big deal of RPM packaging, web publishing, translation, and other stuff
17:47 < jjmcd> At one point you talked about a diff on the wiki ... I assume you use the mediawiki export?
17:47 < stickster> jjmcd: Let's not talk about specific tools right now.
17:47 < jjmcd> ok
17:47 < stickster> I think it's more important to discuss the process first, then we can drill down
17:48 < stickster> All right, so about now, Docs team members should be emailing developers, including the f-devel-l, to make sure that devs know they can write content in the Beats pages, to be included in the "compendium" versions of the release notes.
17:48 < stickster> Actually, that should have already started.  If it hasn't then Sparks should head up that work.
17:49 < stickster> I'll record it here for the summary:
17:49 < stickster> ACTION ITEM: Sparks -- kick off f-devel-l call for content in release notes beats on wiki
17:49 < jjmcd> I have poked a few developers where I knew stuff was happening that was interesting and could identify a victim
17:49 < stickster> Let's look at that schedule together to make this process flow easier to understand, herer's the link again:
17:49 < stickster> jjmcd: cool
17:49 < stickster>
17:49 -!- mejla [n=mejla at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
17:50 < stickster> On April 1, we "freeze" the release notes beats on the wiki.
17:50 < quaid> stickster: just a process correction, shouldn't it be the relnotes lead who kicks off the f-devel-l call for content? 
17:50 < quaid> caveat that all should be helping raise the visibility.
17:50 < stickster> quaid: Oops, I'm sorry, you're right, I had forgotten about the relnotes lead
17:50 < stickster> I apologize profusely!!! :-0
17:51 < stickster> OK, now I'll wipe the gravel off my knees and continue
17:51 < stickster> So, on 1 April we "freeze" the wiki.
17:51 < ryanlerch> so, are the one-sheets seperate documents? or just a summary of the current content in the proper release notes?
17:51  * ianweller isn't even sure what that means. just with release notes, right?
17:52 < stickster> ryanlerch: They are separate documents, only highlights. They also can be changed by the community itself as important issues are uncovered.
17:52 < ryanlerch> so in theory, there may be content in the one-sheets that never get over into the release notes
17:52 < stickster> ryanlerch: Thinking of them as a summary is probably not quite correct, since there's often not good content in the beats by that point.
17:53 < stickster> It would be nice if we had current Rawhide beats constantly, but that's another matter for another day.
17:53 < ryanlerch> maybe, that content should go into the release notes first then
17:53 < stickster> ryanlerch: It should go to both, yes.
17:54 < ryanlerch> just scanning the alpha notes, and there is content that is in there and on in the main beat pages
17:54  * quaid is about to drop offline again for a few to transit
17:54 < jjmcd> Some of the stuff in the one sheets seems a little expansive in the context of what else is happening in the release notes
17:54 < ryanlerch> i.e. the x changes
17:54 < stickster> Yes, from time to time the scope will probably be uneven because of the community editability. That's a price we pay for an open process.
17:55 < stickster> Since people use the Alpha and/or Beta for a significant amount of time after their release as "starting points" for testing (i.e. install Alpha, update to Rawhide, test), we do want to keep those flexible and editable for everyone
17:55 < stickster> OK, I need to make it a long way through this schedule and I'm running out of time here.
17:55 < stickster> Let's forge on.
17:55 < jjmcd> Yes, and there is good sales material there, too
17:56 < stickster> So, between 1-2 April we are porting the beats of the release notes to XML.
17:56 < stickster> This is an *intense* process because typically automated tools don't produce great DocBook XML from wiki text.
17:56 < stickster> It definitely gets you about 75% of the way there, though.
17:56 < ryanlerch> my current mockup is pretty up to date with the beats on the wiki ATM
17:57 < ryanlerch>
17:57 < stickster> ryanlerch: That's awesome -- if we get it into the git repo, then it will make the process much easier.
17:57 < stickster> So
17:57 < ryanlerch> stickster: that is my next task
17:57 < mdious> git makes things much easier? ;) ;)
17:57 < ryanlerch> i just have no idea with git
17:58  * rudi will be helping make that happen in the next couple of days
17:58 < stickster> Once we have good XML, one way or the other -- and we really need to make that happen within about 24 hours of the wiki freeze -- we generate POT files for the translators, notify the fedora-trans-list they're ready, and unfreeze the wiki.
17:58 < Tsagadai> ryanlerch, I'm converting my guide and notes to docbook after lunch
17:58 < stickster> The thing to remember about the release notes from the l10n perspective is, they're big.
17:58 < ryanlerch> okay, will work with Tsagadai and rudi on getting these in git
17:59 < stickster> For the Preview Release, we give the translators about 18-19 days
18:00 < stickster> On 21 April, we collect their PO (essentially this just means we look at the repo, where their submissions have already gone, we don't really have to "collect" anything), we tag the repository with a good tag like "10.93.0" (for F11 preview), and generate a SRPM for importing to the package build system.
18:00 < stickster> Keep in mind that, after we unfroze the wiki on 2 April, there are probably changes still happening as people discover little fixes here and there
18:01 < stickster> (or in some cases, a developer discovers they need a big chunk of advice somewhere) ;-)
18:01 < stickster> On 29 April, we basically do this routine again, but it gets easier.
18:01 < stickster> We freeze the wiki for the F11 Final release notes, but this time it's very easy
18:02 < stickster> We look for diffs between the last freeze and "now" (29 April)
18:02 < stickster> If there aren't any, that beat's already up to date.
18:02 < stickster> If there are, you port the diff to XML.  In most cases, I found it easiest to do this by just copy-pasting text and applying tags as needed.
18:03 < stickster> *** Note: if ryanlerch's material is up to date with the wiki prior to either the Preview Release phase, or this Final phase, the job will become easier still.
18:03 < stickster> Just a side point.
18:04 < stickster> So again, on 30 April, having taken only about 24 hours to do wiki diffs and final porting, we generate POT files, notify the fedora-trans-list again, and unfreeze.
18:04 < jjmcd> can we watch a category and see changed pages in that category?
18:04 < stickster> jjmcd: I don't know, maybe ianweller does
18:04 < ryanlerch> i am watching all the individual pages...
18:04 < stickster> I prefer to put pages on my personal watch list.
18:04 < ryanlerch> but i may have missed soen
18:04 < ryanlerch> *some
18:05 < jjmcd> ryanlerch - that was my concern -- if a new one shows up there is some chance it will be in the beats category
18:05 < stickster> OK, returning to the schedule, notice that we don't give as much translation time for Final. That's because the vast quantity of material should already be done, and unchanged from the Preview Release.
18:05 < stickster> So the translators don't need as much time.
18:06 < jjmcd> And presumably the translators have the schedule too so they know what's coming
18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: correct!
18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: And the relnotes coordinator should be making sure they see it repeatedly along the way ;-)
18:06 < ianweller> hi!
18:06 < stickster> jjmcd: And if there are any conflicts, usually they're easily resolved by scootching a day or so this way or taht.
18:06 < stickster> *that.
18:07 < ianweller> jjmcd: at this moment no you can't
18:07 < jjmcd> so hopefully more than introductions on the l10n list
18:07 < stickster> ianweller: thanks
18:07 < stickster> jjmcd: Right.
18:07 < ianweller> and unless somebody wants to write some damn good PHP i'm nots eeing how that will be possible in the near future ;)
18:08 < stickster> jjmcd: Of course, our delivery of SRPM package is subject to when it's needed by release engineering. But this schedule was designed in cahoots with that schedule too, so it should work.
18:08  * jjmcd has been writing too much php past couple days
18:08 < jjmcd> yep
18:08 < stickster> All right, finally on 8 May, we again tag the repo and generate a SRPM package.
18:08 < jjmcd> Now, what happens once we have an srpm in out hot little hands
18:08 < stickster> "11.0.0" is a good one ;-)
18:09 < stickster> jjmcd: You can let me know and I'd import it into the fedora-release-notes package CVS
18:09  * quaid back and reading buffer
18:09 < stickster> Then it would be built and tagged by release engineering.
18:09  * laubersm has to go but will catch up in the morning
18:09 < stickster> G'night laubersm, thanks for coming
18:10 < jjmcd> OK, so once it is in the CVS then others do their magic
18:10 < stickster> If you look at the schedule for late May, you can see that we once again do this for a zero-day update. I won't try anyone's patience by repeating this process again :-)
18:10 < stickster> jjmcd: Exactly.
18:10 < stickster> Now... for the Preview Release you will probably need to consult with f13 to help you with the import
18:10 < stickster> Because.....
18:10 < stickster> *drumroll*
18:10 < stickster> I will be on vacation from about 12-April to 21-April.
18:11 < jjmcd> is that allowed?
18:11 < stickster> Allowed, schmallowed.
18:11 < stickster> <cartman_voice>I do what I want! Whatevah!</cartman_voice>
18:12  * jjmcd will be going to FDIM shortly before GA but I see that the boys in Dayton were nice enough to schedule that when I'm waiting for translators
18:12 < stickster> They're wise like that.
18:12 < stickster> I'm sure quaid will be around to lend guidance where needed
18:13 < quaid> sho'nuff
18:13 < stickster> As far as the SRPM goes, we definitely need to have that problem solved by about 25-March.
18:14 < jjmcd> It seems to me that worst case, you take the Publican output and package it manually, but if we can get Publican to do the heavy lifting ...
18:15 -!- jwb [n=jwboyer at fedora/jwb] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:15 < quaid> that looks   like  a good overview of the process
18:15 < stickster> If Publican writes good tarballs, one could write a spec template of our own to use withit.
18:15 < stickster> s/withit/with it/
18:15 < jjmcd> filled in some holes for me
18:16 < stickster> It's not as hard as it sounds, but you really have to track it as it goes.
18:16 < jjmcd> stickster: The link is on the fpaste, but the tar is named wrong, but otherwise ok
18:16 < stickster> Especially, you don't want to wait until the last minute to do a build of the whole complete translated group, and find out only then that you don't know how to figure out where a translation is breaking.
18:17 < jjmcd> The F10 spec file is about 10 times the size of the Publican spec file
18:17 < stickster> What happens often is that a translator has to turn '<para>a big bunch of technical stuff</para>' into '<para>bigger buncher techniker stoof</para>'
18:18  * quaid lol
18:18 < stickster> If they do '<para>bigger buncher technicker stoof<para>' (see the error there?), the build breaks. And *you* have to find it and fix it.
18:18 < jjmcd> and of course you are doing that at the last minute
18:18 < stickster> (hint: the misspelling isn't the error)
18:18 < stickster> (that's the sv-CHEF translation)
18:19 < stickster> or is it sk-CHEF? I forget.
18:19 < stickster> Anyway
18:19 < jjmcd> someone threatened MORE languages for F11?
18:19 < stickster> jjmcd: My point is, you want to leave enough time to fix these little problems
18:19 < jjmcd> yep
18:19 < stickster> Just a word to the wise from someone non-wise who stayed up many late hours because of bad planning on his part :-)
18:20 < stickster> However... there's always the chance that it will be perfect and you'll be able to go out and get ice cream instead!
18:20 < jjmcd> I like that plan better - let's do it that way
18:20 < stickster> hee hee
18:21 < quaid> first we need autobuilding of the translations along the way so we can put the onus to test on the l10n teams
18:21 < quaid> but there I go being practical again!
18:21 < stickster> quaid: One possible problem there is that expecting translators to identify XML errors may be out of scope
18:21 < jjmcd> Isn't it just make html_bg_IN ?
18:21 < stickster> We have many brilliant translators, so it *could* work
18:22 < stickster> jjmcd: Right, but we're talking about automating it in a way that doesn't make them have to have Fedora, Publican, command line skills, etc....
18:22  * stickster really needs to run now
18:22 < jjmcd> ahh yes
18:22 < jjmcd> I forget there are people that like to click
18:22 < stickster> Can I ask someone to take log and summary duties? I have about 1400 emails waiting to address.
18:22 < quaid> there are ways to make it work even with XML errors, but that requires, uh, resources and stuff.
18:23 < quaid> ok, then, let's close this meeting
18:23 -!- mdious [n=mmcallis at nat/redhat/x-e94a24b95a20cf90] has left #fedora-meeting []
18:23 < quaid> if anyone has any more, hop to the list with it, ok?
18:23 < quaid> ok, in 5
18:23 < quaid> 4
18:23 < quaid> 3
18:23 < quaid> 2
18:23 < quaid> 1
18:23 < quaid> </meeting>
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