[Fedora-spins] spins removed from Beta

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Samstag, den 09.11.2013, 07:38 -0600 schrieb Dennis Gilmore:
> El Fri, 8 Nov 2013 21:28:18 -0600
> Bruno Wolff III <bruno at wolff.to> escribió:
> > On Fri, Nov 08, 2013 at 19:09:54 -0600,
> >    Dennis Gilmore <dennis at ausil.us> wrote:
> > >
> > >As Design Suite, Games and Security Spins were not signed off[1]
> > >for Beta they have been removed from F20. They will need to reapply
> > >for inclusion in F21.
> > 
> > So I have been waiting for the Gold version of beta to do my final
> > sign off, just like I did for alpha. I have been keeping an eye on
> > the nightly composes for breakage, but haven't been doing regular
> > downloads of them. I planned to go through it tomorrow which I think
> > was about the same timing as I had for Alpha. Given that Beta isn't
> > going live until Tuesday, what's the hurry to kick these out?
> 
> Everything is on the primary mirror already, the tree is done. Waiting
> until after we have shipped the release is waiting too long, if there
> is issues we cant fix them.
> 
> > I had put a copy of Games on a USB stick earlier today, but wasn't
> > planning on doing my sign off testing until tomorrow (Saturday).
> > Given that we weren't required to test every TC and RC, I figured I
> > would just keep an eye out for problems in composes as other than a
> > compose conflict, the games spin is very likely to work if the XFCE
> > spin works, and I'd just sign off on the gold RC.
> 
> Sorry you figured wrong. You should have asked. 

Dennis,

with all due respect, but I think your attitude it fundamentally wrong.

You are the Fedora release manager. It's your job to communicate
deadlines, to reach out to the people affected and nag them. You are
getting paid to do this, but you expect volunteers to ask you? Seems you
are living in an upside-down world.

We had the same situation with F19 and someone (I don't remember who.
Matthew? Adam? Peter?) put it in a nutshell: "Dennis, you screwed it up.
Stop arguing." AFAIR you promised you would do better, but I don't see
any change.

Please be so kind as to tell me:
     1. Did you send out reminders to the mailing lists? I don't see
        anything on this list.
     2. Did you send out reminders to the spin owners directly?
     3. What test cases do you think needs to be run on spins you want
        to remove? All are based on Desktop spins which are already
        tested. The only thing worth testing is Testcase_desktop_menus,
        but it is due for final, not beta. QA has no other testcases or
        criteria the spins need to meet.
     4. Do we actually need to run test cases for non-desktop spins?
        They are not listed in the wiki, neither in the template nor on
        any of the test results pages.

I do understand that as the release engineer, you don't want to ship
spins that don't work. I agree we need to get rid of unmaintained and
untested spins. But none of the spins you want to remove seem
unmaintained for me. Frankly speaking it looks to me like you are trying
to reduce your workload by all means necessary.

> Security and Games
> should have been removed from Alpha since there is no sign they were
> tested then. 

Then we would need to remove LXDE, too.

> When we decide on a gold release that means we have tested
> it and are sure it is good.  you need to test before then.

We are not gold yet, are we?

I apologize I am very direct in this mail. With your attitude, you are
driving volunteers away from Fedora. I know some who are close to resign
and I cannot accept this.

Best regards,
Christoph