Fedora I18n IRC 2007-07-02 meeting log

[Jens Petersen]

Here is the meeting log from today's Fedora I18n meeting.


16:01:14 <juhp>	ok it is after 06:00 UTC
16:01:48 <juhp>	I see some people here :)
16:02:33 -->	keimoto (i=keimoto at nat/redhat/x-8104ac04241a2761) has 
joined #fedora-i18n
16:02:36 <juhp>	welcome to the first Fedora I18n meeting
16:02:44 <keimoto>	hi
16:03:00 <keimoto>	candyz0416☺ ping.
16:03:11 -->	huzheng (n=huzheng at 211.103.237.2) has joined #fedora-i18n
16:03:12 <juhp>	hi candyz0416
16:03:18 -->	lizhang (n=LingNing at 221.220.25.28) has joined #fedora-i18n
16:04:22 <keimoto>	hi huzheng lizhang
16:04:28 <huzheng>	hi
16:04:33 <lizhang>	hi
16:04:41 <paragn>	hi
16:04:48 <juhp>	okay we're starting these meetings to hopefully have 
more open discussion on i18n development in fedora
16:04:58 <phuang>	hi
16:05:33 <juhp>	unfortunately tagoh can't make today's meeting
16:05:41 <juhp>	hi guys
16:06:06 <juhp>	I think ryo-dairiki and sm|test are also here
16:06:30 <juhp>	let's get started and see how much discussion we can 
generate
16:07:00 <juhp>	# Desktop input method install defaults and configuration
16:07:35 <juhp>	we have seen some problem with the scim package 
installation defaults in F7
16:07:49 -->	hellwolf (n=hellwolf at 121.229.5.142) has joined #fedora-i18n
16:07:57 <keimoto>	hi hellwolf
16:08:06 <hellwolf>	keimoto, HI
16:08:32 <juhp>	hopefully things are already quite a bit better in f8 
(devel)
16:08:43 <keimoto>	juhp☺ like last time you have changed 'Changjie' to 
'Changjie 3' as default.
16:09:19 <juhp>	keimoto: right for HK users that should also be an 
improvement in f8 :)
16:10:01 <keimoto>	sure :)
16:10:05 <keimoto>	how about Indic lang?
16:10:20 <juhp>	I think warren disagrees with me on this, but I would 
actually like to see scim activated by default again on the desktop in F8
16:10:46 <juhp>	keimoto: what about indic?
16:11:03 <keimoto>	packages in Indic lang.
16:11:10 <juhp>	ah
16:11:29 <keimoto>	what is the cons if SCIM activated by default?
16:11:38 <juhp>	so currently in devel we have meta packages for major 
languages using scim
16:12:03 <rahul_b>	hi
16:12:21 <juhp>	so users can install say scim-lang-bengali say or 
scim-lang-korean for scim support
16:13:13 <juhp>	keimoto: and so scim-m17n no longer needs to be 
installed by default, nor will be removed if a package group for another 
indic lang is removed say (like it will in f7)
16:13:17 <juhp>	hi rahul_b
16:13:41 <rahul_b>	I think these should be installed be default for the 
selected locale
16:13:55 <juhp>	I am wondering if we can/should do something though so 
that scim is no activated by default on a livecd though
16:14:05 <juhp>	rahul_b: yep they will be :)
16:14:38 <juhp>	those meta packages are just to help keep necessary 
packages installed
16:15:00 <juhp>	since we don't have real rigid package groups under yum
16:16:06 <juhp>	any other comments on install defaults?
16:17:14 <keimoto>	I agree to have SCIM activated for all lang.
16:17:17 <juhp>	probably next time we will have the meeting earlier and 
probably warren may join...
16:17:30 <juhp>	and we can have more discussion on this
16:18:06 <juhp>	keimoto: but not installed for all langs, I suppose?
16:19:00 <juhp>	okay let's move on to the next item
16:19:16 <juhp>	# I18n comps
16:19:43 <juhp>	to add a words on that
16:20:29 -->	icman (n=icman at 123-240-172-33.cctv.dynamic.lsc.net.tw) has 
joined #fedora-i18n
16:21:07 <juhp>	this relates a little to the previous item, but more 
about if we need to add any new package groups to comps and also how to 
help maintain comps for i18n related packages
16:21:36 <juhp>	one idea I had was to add a Fonts package group
16:22:22 <juhp>	it would make it very easy to select various fonts to 
install by grouping them together
16:22:42 <paragn>	juhp, but if we install any lang by groupinstall isn't 
it will install font for that lang also?
16:22:55 <juhp>	paragn: yep it will
16:23:29 <juhp>	personally I would like to see more font coverage 
installed by default like in the livecd releases
16:23:40 <keimoto>	would it be appropriate to separate font from lang?
16:23:58 <paragn>	keimoto, no
16:24:10 <juhp>	keimoto: I think that is a bit dangerous unless we 
install them by default
16:24:15 <keimoto>	paragn☺ no for me too...
16:24:25 <paragn>	keimoto, :)
16:24:48 <juhp>	keimoto: ah I'm suggesting a Fonts in addition to the 
Lang group entries not a replacement
16:25:02 <keimoto>	I would more prefer to add 'Everything' as an option...
16:25:07 <juhp>	Fonts group *
16:25:22 <keimoto>	juhp☺ oic
16:25:22 <juhp>	keimoto: all langs?
16:25:35 <paragn>	juhp, in that case its good to have fonts group that 
will cover extras fonts packages other than what lang support is not 
installing
16:26:00 <keimoto>	juhp☺ yes maybe, or even all pkgs (all pkgs might be 
hard as there might be redundancies on pkg func).
16:26:29 <juhp>	paragn: yeah it could be useful - specially if people 
just want to read/see those langs and not input them or have lang packs 
for them
16:26:42 <juhp>	it would be lighter :)
16:27:24 <keimoto>	juhp☺ will this add burden on user's customization?
16:27:33 <juhp>	keimoto: ok but Everything is outside our scope here...
16:27:37 <paragn>	juhp, agree :)
16:27:54 <juhp>	paragn: ok :)
16:28:16 <juhp>	then maybe I will try to cook up a comps patch for that 
soon and see how it looks
16:28:33 <keimoto>	Font Group + Lang Support Group -> confusing user?
16:28:38 <juhp>	should be pretty easy
16:28:46 <paragn>	keimoto, no instead it will let user to use any other 
lang font instead to install whole lang support
16:29:21 <rahul_b>	paragn, agree :)
16:29:44 <paragn>	I suppose Lang Support means -> install all rpms 
related to that particular language
16:30:01 <paragn>	and Font group mean -> install only fonts for any lang
16:30:02 <juhp>	keimoto: i think it should be ok we already have some 
CJK fonts in base-x now for F7
16:30:07 <rahul_b>	paragn, what all is included in lang suport currently?
16:30:13 <juhp>	paragn: right
16:30:33 <juhp>	rahul_b: openoffice and kde langpacks also for example
16:31:09 <juhp>	and input methods for example
16:31:17 <paragn>	rahul_b, lang support includes aspell,scim.openoffice 
lang pack
16:31:33 <keimoto>	will user check a lang in Font group and anaconda not 
installing openoffice-langpack?
16:31:35 <juhp>	rahul_b: you can look at the comps module in cvs
16:31:49 <rahul_b>	users will normally expect everything related to the 
lang be installed when lang support is requested
16:31:52 <juhp>	keimoto: they could if they want
16:32:16 <keimoto>	if we assume they know they could :)
16:32:22 <juhp>	rahul_b: yeah they will still have that option and by 
default get the install lang
16:33:01 <juhp>	well I think it is worth trying - let us see how it 
works first
16:33:17 <rahul_b>	juhp, ok :)
16:33:49 <juhp>	I think Fonts could go in the Base groups
16:34:22 <juhp>	hmm or be part of the X Windows group?
16:34:24 <dychen_>	Agree, juhp..
16:34:38 <rahul_b>	can we have one package in two groups?
16:34:52 <juhp>	but it will be easier to see the fonts in a separate 
package group I still think
16:35:02 <juhp>	rahul_b: yep - we already do :)
16:35:25 <juhp>	for example fonts-japanese is both in japanese-support 
and base-x
16:35:33 <rahul_b>	juhp, then I think same should be done for fonts
16:35:55 <juhp>	rahul_b: same?
16:36:31 <rahul_b>	juhp, putting other font-lang packages in lang group 
as well in base-x group
16:36:46 <paragn>	rahul_b, yes you can see same package listed twice in 
different groups while customizing packages to be installed
16:37:48 <juhp>	rahul_b: hmm, I need to think more about base-x vs a new 
fonts group
16:38:04 <juhp>	but yeah not all fonts are currently listed in base-x 
only key ones
16:38:16 <juhp>	I suppose we could have both
16:39:09 <juhp>	ok some good comments and discussion there :)
16:39:21 <juhp>	shall we move on to the next topic
16:39:43 <rahul_b>	juhp, can we have more than one font in a single 
font-lang package?
16:39:52 <juhp>	# Renaming of fonts-* to reflect upstream projects
16:40:06 <juhp>	rahul_b: yes that is the topic :)
16:40:17 <rahul_b>	juhp, yeah :)
16:40:26 <juhp>	rahul_b: currently we do for various languages I think
16:41:08 <juhp>	like fonts-japanese contains both truetype and bitmap 
fonts from different projects
16:41:28 <rahul_b>	juhp, I have not seen that for indic
16:41:54 <rahul_b>	juhp, adn since many upstream projects are willing to 
be part of fedora, we need to decide on taht
16:42:09 <juhp>	so the suggestion was made a while back on one of the 
mailing-lists to rename our fonts to follow the upstream names
16:42:36 <juhp>	rahul_b: right not for indic I guess
16:43:11 <juhp>	I think it is also true for Korean and Chinese though
16:45:17 <juhp>	well I guess it should be discussed more on the fedora 
mailing lists, but I am thinking to cause some trouble and file bugs 
against those packages to have them split up and renamed to follow the 
upstream project
16:46:21 <rahul_b>	how about adding some foo font into, say fonts-hindi?
16:47:16 <rahul_b>	and will it affect the default font selection scheme?
16:48:11 <juhp>	Nicolas Mailhot originally made the suggestion I think - 
pity he can't be here this time
16:48:48 <juhp>	rahul_b: right good questions
16:49:18 <juhp>	rahul_b: generally it would be better to package it 
separately if it comes from a different upstream
16:49:25 <rahul_b>	other distros do include more than one font per package
16:49:47 -->	ifelix (i=felix at nat/redhat-in/x-23cf1ed7b6fceb05) has 
joined #fedora-i18n
16:49:48 <juhp>	rahul_b: do you have some examples
16:49:58 <juhp>	?
16:50:04 <rahul_b>	juhp, then it becomes a burden for user to remember 
the font package name
16:50:08 <dychen_>	How about "meta" package.
16:50:30 <juhp>	rahul_b: right but they can use the lang support group 
for that
16:50:37 <paragn>	juhp, yes if different upstream then package in 
different rpms
16:50:46 <juhp>	dychen_: yup that may also be good
16:50:48 <rahul_b>	like in ubutu, 'raghu' and 'gargi' both are part of 
fonts-indic
16:50:49 <dychen_>	We can still separate the fonts from different source.
16:51:14 <juhp>	rahul_b: aha and we don't ship them?
16:51:24 <rahul_b>	juhp, nope
16:51:27 <dychen_>	Then bind them to meta package like fonts-hindi-free 
fonts-hindi-restrict.
16:51:28 <juhp>	hmm
16:51:34 <juhp>	rahul_b: should we? :)
16:51:39 <juhp>	ah
16:51:43 <rahul_b>	but we have requests for few others
16:51:51 <rahul_b>	:
16:51:53 <rahul_b>	:)
16:52:12 <juhp>	rahul_b: are you willing to package them and submit them 
for package review? :)
16:52:27 <juhp>	are they free?
16:52:39 <rahul_b>	juhp, yup they are free, GPLed
16:52:47 <juhp>	cool
16:53:15 <rahul_b>	infact we also have a bug for same on fonts-panjabi
16:53:37 <juhp>	rahul_b: aha - and can someone package them you think?
16:54:02 <juhp>	rahul_b: how many langs do they cover or are they all 
separate?
16:54:19 <rahul_b>	juhp, I plan to package them
16:54:27 <juhp>	rahul_b: great! :-)
16:54:33 <rahul_b>	mostly they are one font per lang
16:54:37 <juhp>	ok
16:54:59 <juhp>	rahul_b: so they would be an alternative to Lohit?
16:54:59 <rahul_b>	except the one I made myself which covers five langs
16:55:05 <juhp>	:)
16:55:12 <rahul_b>	juhp, hmm :)
16:55:55 <juhp>	any other comments before we move on?
16:56:35 <paragn>	juhp, I do have
16:56:47 <juhp>	I will try to post a mail asking for more comments but I 
think the renaming would mainly affect Asian fonts (since we seem to be 
the main "culprits";o)
16:57:03 <juhp>	paragn: please go ahead
16:57:06 <paragn>	juhp, before we discuss on including any new font we 
must first decide on some packaging guidelines for fonts packages
16:57:15 <juhp>	paragn: agreed
16:57:53 <juhp>	I had been reviewing a few fonts going on the naming 
guideline of "<name>-fonts"
16:58:09 <juhp>	but it should be written down somewhere I agree
16:58:28 <juhp>	so we should make a proposal for that to fedora-packaging
16:58:34 <paragn>	juhp, also decide on how to deal with fonts coming 
from different upstream projects
16:58:42 <juhp>	right
16:58:47 <paragn>	can they be included in single meta rpm?
16:59:23 <juhp>	well I don't know if that really needs special attention 
since by default we assume separate packages for separate upstreams
16:59:47 <juhp>	so really our fonts packages are breaking that rule IMHO
17:00:17 <juhp>	of course most of the CJK fonts in fonts-* are not 
changing that much ...
17:00:32 <paragn>	yes so per font we need to create separate rpm
17:00:38 <juhp>	I think so
17:01:09 <juhp>	I think it was originally so in RHL say and then they 
were merged - at least for some of them
17:01:25 <juhp>	like taipei-fonts now in fonts-chinese used to be a 
separate package
17:01:37 <juhp>	so it may be reincarnated ;)
17:01:54 <paragn>	juhp, I think better to have discussion on this on 
mailing list :)
17:01:59 <juhp>	paragn: but agree it might be good to make it explicit :)
17:02:04 <juhp>	paragn: yup
17:02:07 <juhp>	let's do that
17:02:19 <paragn>	we can move to next topic now :)
17:02:41 <juhp>	# Plans for next meeting
17:02:59 <keimoto>	how often is the meeting?
17:03:05 <juhp>	first I wanted to say let's do the next meeting on 
#fedora-meeting
17:03:29 <juhp>	we can probably catch some more people who lurk there :)
17:03:54 <juhp>	my motivation for having it here was to draw more 
attention to this channel
17:04:15 <juhp>	keimoto: well let us see until we settle down to a routine
17:04:48 <juhp>	I propose to have another meeting next week at an 
earlier time (ie morning in E Asia)
17:04:57 <juhp>	it may be hard for people in India though :-/
17:05:36 <juhp>	probably fortnightly would be sufficient or maybe even 
once a month
17:05:48 <juhp>	it really depends on what people think
17:06:20 <juhp>	any comments on the day of the week and time?
17:07:06 <keimoto>	alternatively for ppl from another half of the earth
17:07:36 <juhp>	keimoto: yeah I think it is a good idea to alternate 
between am and pm
17:07:41 <keimoto>	so might be this time is easy for asia and eastern europe
17:07:52 <keimoto>	next time is US and western Europe.
17:08:30 <juhp>	for am here probably some people from US will join in
17:08:32 <keimoto>	or even cut it into: asia-pac, europe, us
17:08:53 <juhp>	keimoto: will pm here may be better for europe but anyway
17:09:14 <juhp>	but of course it really depends on the availability of 
people
17:09:20 <keimoto>	yea
17:09:36 <keimoto>	pm here is gd from us to eastern europe
17:09:42 <juhp>	many of them may be working
17:09:49 <keimoto>	(from asia to europe)
17:10:29 <keimoto>	juhp☺ should we put meeting log on somewhere?
17:10:33 <juhp>	anyway we will experiment and see what kind of 
attendance we get
17:10:45 <juhp>	keimoto: yep it will be on the wiki
17:10:47 <keimoto>	and have a place to inform ppl about topics of next 
meeting?
17:10:49 <keimoto>	okay
17:11:05 <juhp>	I added some pages for that earlier
17:11:33 <paragn>	juhp, cool
17:11:52 <juhp>	any more comments, before we open the discussion
17:13:01 <juhp>	# Open discussion
17:13:45 <juhp>	any other topics for i18n people want to discuss?
17:15:38 <juhp>	ok, a couple more minutes for any comments and then 
let's the meeting
17:17:18 <juhp>	just wanted to say that for the next meeting we should 
probably use the wiki for generating the agenda like other fedora 
meetings are doing
17:18:12 <juhp>	okay thank you very much for attending today's 
fedora-i18n meeting :)
17:18:23 <juhp>	meeting is Closed