"Getting the ball rolling.."

Fri Dec 2 01:55:17 UTC 2011

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While I realize there's a large possibility this will simply be ignored
by anyone in a position to do anything about it, I'm starting the thread
anyway so that these things are said, there's a record of it and for
anyone else who wants to point out similar problems in the future to
reference back to.

 There are many large holes in the Fedora community and, in particular,
its largely improperly regulated IRC presence. There is a quote which
has been attributed to Stan Lee and Franklin Roosevelt "With power,
comes great responsibility". Keeping this in mind, within any
organization there will be obvious reasons for some to have more power
than others in certain affairs, this is logical and understandable to
maintain sane continuity. It's also reasonable to assume that those with
these various powers have the responsibility to exercise said powers
effectively, intelligently and fairly. This is not and simply has not
been the case in either the #fedora-* or #fedora-unity* channels. This
is an opinion shared by many intelligent people who have passed through
the doors of both organizations for some time. It's certainly a problem
and a concern that seems to be regularly brushed under the rug for fear
of stepping on someones ego, threatening the power structure, fear of
change or lack of knowing exactly what to do or how to implement to
change it.

 To me and others that share this opinion is it of paramount importance
to find a solution and apply it asap. I do realize that the main point
of #fedora is not to make users happy or implement any certain policy,
but to provide a diverse testing platform for a commercial product
(RHEL) that only a select few in the community actually benefit from
financially. While this end result won't change, the support policy in
#fedora must. I'm not one for mincing words or pretending everything is
"ok" when it clearly is not. I'm as likely to admit my own mistakes,
errors and frustrated or bad behavior as I am to point it out directly
and curtly in others. I also don't expect my ideas or opinions to be
blindly accepted or considered without thoughtful community input, but I
also don't expect to be wholesale ignored when my concerns are voiced
either, as has been the case in the past.

 The issues with Khaystus and just brushing it under the carpet and told
to "ignore it" is just simply not an option in my opinion, it's
irresponsible and shows a lack of leadership and responsibility all
around. It's childish and pointless to carry on an issue and refuse to
deal with it for years on end. Ignoring it won't make it go away or
change the behaviors which led to it in the first place. If I were a
normal user that never contributed my time or money, only complained and
never showed any signs of thoughtfulness or change, I could understand
simply ignoring me and moving on. Instead I'm insisting that the issues
be addressed in a reasonable and peaceful manner. This too seems to be
widely unaccepted in favor of just ignoring me instead and just keeping
things "business-as-usual". I'm not attacking anyone in particular, even
Khaystus, I *still* have nothing against him other than his seeming need
to hold on to whatever his grudge is with me and even more so by the
community of otherwise intelligent people that tolerate that behavior in
someone who is supposed to be a mediator. To me, it's akin to asking
someone who can't find a job to help you find one, it simply doesn't
make sense.

 I have a verified history in the Fedora community from my financial and
time support, howtos, and getting others involved that goes back to the
days of #redhat where |jef| (spoleeba) was a regular op. I also have a
history of frustrated and upset or abusive behavior in #fedora at times.
Frustrated because I do feel ignored and that things are not changing
and have not changed in this arena for some time. I don't think my
concerns are completely out in left field or unsubstantiated because I
have talked with other respected members who feel the same exact way.

 Ultimately, I love Fedora and Red Hat and I want to be a part of a
community that is self-responsible and teaches that behavior to others.
Some ways I see accomplishing this is in the areas of problem solving
techniques, research skills and best practices and methods so that, as a
group, we can all "teach a man to fish" so they may feel empowered to
contribute back to the community and feel supported in that effort while
maintaining a professional and helpful approach. This is something that
everyone can and should be taking back into their normal "real" lives.
In this vein of thinking I propose the following not-so-easy
undertakings to start the ball rolling:

1.. Full restructuring of the IRC help forum and a written clear policy
as to how this will be accomplished, including:
 a. Publicly accessible "channel behavior guidelines" which all must
read and follow, regardless of "status".
 b. Agreed central help resources, forums, FP.org wiki, and other tools
to present a more unified public support structure.
 c. Abuse/sanction policies

 I believe I have the desire, time, skills, etc to help in this area
which would put an abrupt halt to most frustrations felt on my part.
Having said all this, words are cheap and actions are what give us
something worth appreciating and feeling we're contributing towards
something worthwhile. That being said, I'll await to see if I'm once
again ignored or if these concerns are taken seriously this time.

Regards,

- -Warren (opsec/zodiac)

- ----------------------------------------

Below is my posting to the fedora-ops list about 1.5 years ago when
Evilbob had nominated me for ops in #fedora and I was asked to comment.
Since that time no one has successfully been added to the #fedora ops
list to the best of my knowledge, though not without several attempted
nominations of others being shot down as well.

.-------- Original Message --------
Subject:     Re: Plan for tomorrow's irc-support-sig meeting (2010-08-26)
Date:     Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:20:51 -0600
From:     warren <warren at fedoraos.org>
Reply-To:     warren at fedoraos.org
To:     List for the IRC support SIG
<irc-support-sig at lists.fedoraproject.org>

Hello,

I'm not sure I'll be able to or if I'm required to attend this meeting
at 16:00UTC/09:00PST. But I've written my
feelings and ideas below pertaining to the topic(s) outlined by Nirik
(Kevin).

I've been with the Fedora Project from the day the door opened. I used
to help daily with
either howtos, direct channel help or providing resources. After
prolonged feelings of frustration and helplessness
and feeling there was little I could do anymore to help, I've been
fairly inactive in #fedora channels. While I've
certainly not been a model member of the community at times, I have
thought a lot about why this is and discussed it
privately with a few of the people named below and others.

These are a few things I've noticed in these past 5 or so years...

Being an operator to me means simply that you have control over your
irrational self and your emotions,
that you've developed the skills to not take things personally, view
situations from an objective perspective
and act with fairness and an unbiased personal attitude consistently.

Being an operator gives a person a certain power, which most will end up
abusing in some way. Being an operator comes with a responsibility and,
in my opinion, is not for "honorary" or similar purposes. Being an
operator should *require* regular active participation, management and
discussions on improvement, delegation/completion of tasks, progress
reports on current projects. Power for the sake of having power seems a
frivolous trinket to me.

My personal list of those I have seen truly have what it takes to be an
operator anywhere:
anvil, zcat, nirik, mharris, jef (spoleeba), che, damaestro, kanarip,
ivazquez, mutk, sonar_guy

If I've excluded someone I've either forgotten them (as I went by
memory) or they don't meet the above criteria.
I don't have anything against anyone involved with or visiting the
channel(s), this includes khaystus and thomasj who seem to have personal
vendettas against me. That being said, all operators have valid ideas
and opinions as well which should always be considered by the group.

#fedora -
In this channel I see that on-topic chatter should be enforced fairly
regularly
and with the least amount of noise as possible to accomplish the goals
below.
In fairness to all there should also be a set amount of acceptable
"noobism" before it's sent elsewhere for a while.

To help end users:

1. Become more responsible user (teach a man to fish)
2. Address technical issues in a logical and sane process
3. Help them file bug reports
4. Help them become more involved in the community

#fedora-social -
the only "rules" that seem to be necessary are ones pertaining to spam,
or otherwise
making the channel unusable. discussing *any* topic should not be off
topic or banned.
everyone has some ideas or many that are going to be received by someone
negatively,
this is simply unavoidable. the only logical course of action is the use
of personal /ignore
lists when we are that annoyed by someone (excluding ops, as they do no
have this luxury).
However, Freenode guidelines should also be followed.

1. All off topic material in #fedora
2. Philosophical discussion
3. Ranting, complaining, venting (including topics which may be
offensive to some).
4. Personal/public "how's it going" chatting

Operator proposal:

1. Review the current operator list define a list of duties, goals, etc
for operators and fill them.
2. Have an easily accessible/viewable list that outlines each operator
and their duties or contribution(s)
3. Have weekly/bi-weekly logged meetings regarding projects, solutions,
proposals, duties, etc
4. Periodic collective reviews of channel bans, problem users, operator
duties, etc

- -Warren (opsec/zodiac)

Kevin Fenzi wrote:
| Here's what I have for an agenda for tomorrow's meeting, which will be
| held at 16:00UTC in #fedora-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
|
| Feel free to reply to this with additional topics, or bring them up in
| the "open floor" section of the meeting.
|
| #topic Week in review
| http://fedora.theglaserfamily.org/ircstats/fedora-weekly.html
| #topic should we add any new ops now?
| #topic how should new ops be nominated?
| #topic we need a rule about how long an op can be inactive
| #topic thomasj be removed from op status because of his inactivity
| #topic all #fedora ops be removed from op status in #fedora-social
| #topic SIG lead be elected and have a set term
| #topic fcami nomination
| #topic opsec nomination
| #topic trac instance setup
| #topic Open Floor
|
| kevin
|
| -------------------------
|
| _______________________________________________
| irc-support-sig mailing list
| irc-support-sig at lists.fedoraproject.org
| https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/irc-support-sig

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