Marketing ideas -- foreign-born experts v. outsourced/H1B Visa "cheap guys"

Clair fedora at
Sat Apr 22 14:27:12 UTC 2006

vim's better!

Sorry, wrong thread.

Clair ;)

On Saturday 22 April 2006 15:26, Bryan J. Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 2006-04-22 at 12:46 +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote:
> > Excuse me?
> > This is not only terribly rude and offensive, it is also innacurate.
> > Perhaps, you should look up some indian open source Contributors.
> > From Sirtaj, one of the founding members of KDE,
> > Rahul, here on the Fedora Board,
> > The founder of Anjuta (which is named after his wife)
> > Shreyas S (gnome developer, ex maintainer of evo for mac until his mac
> > was pried from his hands)
> > Satish (writes a hell of a lot of kernel modules, and heads the Red Hat
> > bangalore offices)
> > Sankarshan
> > Runa B
> > Gopal Vijayraghavan, Lead developer of dotgnu,
> > and I could go on for a while
> > This comment is simply racist.
> That's because you took it wrong and didn't pay attention to the fact I
> was talking about _major_ H1B Visa and outsourcing abusers like Diebold,
> IBM, Microsoft, State Farm, etc... when it comes to _commercial_
> software or in-house software development.
> Understand *I* have worked with _many_ foreign nationals on _many_
> engineering projects.  In fact, I've often been a "minority native-born
> American" on them and that was just fine by me!  Immigrants make the
> United States -- something Americans don't realize.  They have been
> _experts_ and, in many cases, _uniquely_qualified_.  This _includes_
> many _outstanding_ open source project originators and maintainers.
> But the problem right now in the US is that we keep importing the _crap_
> of the world on 90% of our H1B Visas and while letting the "lowest
> foreign bidder" develop software, 90% who are typically _not_ qualified.
> My points are ...
> A.  In the open source world, the software is produced by qualified
> people.  These people typically have a passion for their development,
> and they excel at it.  They can be _any_ nationality, and many are _not_
> Americans.  You get the _best_ the _world_ has to offer.
> B.  In the commercial software world, the software is produced by
> commercial funding of "the lowest price."  In these cases, many
> _unqualified_ Indian, Irish, Israeli and other firms are tapped -- or
> H1B Visas granted to bring such _unqualified_ individual in because of
> the costs.  You get the _lowest_price_ the _world_ has to offer.
> C.  I have personally seen this first-hand in a half-dozen Fortune 100
> companies.  I have written both requirements for outsourced software as
> well as managed H1B Visa workers.  In a couple of cases, they wanted to
> (and sometimes did) send me or someone I worked with to a foreign nation
> to supervise these developers.  In 90% of the cases, they were _not_
> remotely qualified -- and it was a pure cost game, one that was
> impossible to deal with.
> But American companies don't care, and that's why we get the crap in
> commercial software!
> So *WHY* would you *PAY* for *COMMERCIAL* software that is the "lowest
> price the world has to offer" when you can get *OPEN*SOURCE* software
> designed by "the best the world has to offer"?
> That's why Open Source is _better_!
> D.  The IEEE has been trying to get the stupid "pro-protectionalim v.
> pro-immigration" non-sense to stop, because _both_ sides are _wrong_!
> H1B Visas are basically indentured servitude.  Green Cards are not.  If
> you give an immigrant a Green Card, they aren't under the thumb of a
> sponsoring company, but free to take whatever job they want.  This not
> only means they won't be underpaid, unlike in the H1B Visa system, but
> it also means we aren't letting corporations import _crap_ merely
> because of price.  Linus Torvalds is one of the IEEE's Poster Children
> on this -- he was given a H1B Visa when he was _unqiuely_qualified_ and
> should have been given a Green Card.  Miguel deIcaza is another.
> As a responsible American, I _welcome_ both world competition and
> immigration.  But right now, America is _shooting_ itself in the foot by
> allowing its companies to import unqualified slaves under H1B Visas and
> outsourcing to companies who clearly are _not_ qualified to do many
> software developments.  That's why the crap we get from IBM, Microsoft
> and many others is junk.  It's why Diebold, State Farm and other
> financial companies are putting in _horrendous_ security nightmares into
> our financial systems.  It's why Boeing, Lockheed-Martin and other firms
> have major development issues (even if Americans with Security
> Clearances design the products, some of the IT/software they use is more
> H1B Visa and outsourced "lowest price" non-sense).
> I hope you see my point now.  I, as well as the IEEE, typically get
> caught in the cross-fire between "protectionalism" and "immigration."
> H1B Visa are _not_ immigration.  They do _not_ allow America to become
> better by allowing the best of the world to immigrate.  And outsourcing
> is being done irresponsibly in 90% of cases.  I have argued where
> oursourcing does and doesn't work, just like I argued where COTS usage
> at NASA does and doesn't work in the '90s.  You can't save on
> everything!
> But that all does _not_ matter when it comes to community developed
> software!  You get the _best_ of the world!  People who want to work on
> software.  People who _know_ their field!  Not merely someone who is
> paid, or in 90% of cases, _overstates_ what their company can do for the
> "lowest price."  Sorry, that's what I see from 90% of the Indian, Irish
> and Israeli firms and H1B Visa workers I've worked with and saved their
> asses on.  That's the commercial software world in the US for you right
> now.
> It's that other 10%, the ones that are actually worth more, that get the
> shaft.  Luckily they make up the bulk of open source software
> development.  The best the world has to offer.

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