Please _do not_ strip out the patch that brings up applications behind gnome-terminal

Sat Feb 4 20:22:49 UTC 2006

Pontification On:
Agreed, making the action configurable allows each user to set his/her 
own preferences; with perhaps a "default" behavior of the current window 
one is active in retaining focus -- while activated applications stack 
behind the current one.
Simple Example: I am working in Abiword, and anticipate that I am going 
to need to research an item on the 'Net, acquire a photo from my 
digicam, modify the photo with Gimp, all for inclusion in the 
document...I want to be able to change to each application readily, but 
I am not ready to execute specific activities with each of those 
applications just yet. So, I fire up the applications from icons on the 
tool bar (Gnome or KDE), and continue to work on my document without 
interruption from the activated applications as they startup; as each 
takes its own determinate amount of time to activate. When I am ready, I 
switch to whatever application I need to use next...perhaps Firefox to 
begin a Google Search for information, then the Photo Manager to acquire 
a picture etc.

Is this logic fraught with holes? Sure...and it may not even be logical 
at all. However, it is a simple example of how folks expect to use their 
system.

That all said, there are obvious considerations such as:
* Each activated application will take a different amount of time to 
complete startup and be ready to use. Where does it fall in the stack of 
activated applications, and should this be controlled or should the 
system simply present the application when ready?
* Should there be a different default behavior when activating 
applications from the terminal?
* Should there be some additional piece of "eye-candy" in KDE and/or 
Gnome that "floats" to the desktop with  the activated applications 
contained within...;o) (Not advocating this, simply a consideration; 
minimal is better in my opinion, but then again, I work a lot from the 
command line).

Bottom line is what DaveT. mentions below, "You are the master; the 
computer is _your_ slave :) " Options are good, and and user preference 
should win out.

Pontification Off:

Doug

Jason Montleon wrote:
> How difficult would it be to build in the ability, and make it 
> configurable? I can see the argument to both sides; doesn't _seem_ 
> like it would be that difficult to make it configurable; then again I 
> am not the one writing the code and haven't even looked at it so.....
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Timms" <dtimms at bigpond.net.au>
> To: "For testers of Fedora Core development releases" 
> <fedora-test-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Please _do not_ strip out the patch that brings up 
> applications behind gnome-terminal
>
>
>> Fulko.Hew at sita.aero wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Atkins <thedave at ix.netcom.com> on  02/01/2006 12:48 PM 
>>> responded with:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 2006-01-31 at 21:09 -0800, Miles Lane wrote:
>>>> . . .
>>>>
>>>> If it's down to voting for one or the other, I can't stand 
>>>> applications
>>>> that steal the focus or the foreground.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with that statement.  Applications that are already running
>>> shouldn't steal focus,  However the first window an application creates
>>> should _always_ be on top.
>>>
>> What if in your terminal you type in succession:
>> oocalc &
>> mozilla &
>> mplayer &
>> and every app takes 5-10-15 seconds to show ? (like if you don't have 
>> the fastest / most recent machine on the block).
>> Do you want the first one you started to end up on top, the second or 
>> the third ? Or maybe the fastest, (which you start typing in) then 
>> second fastest comes over top, stealing the focus, then third fastest.
>> When I work, the other apps are just tools that I know I'll be 
>> needing soon; and I want them to be ready for my input when I am 
>> ready to give them some work (focus) to do.
>>
>>> I really don't understand why you would want to start an application,
>>> and yet have its window buried underneath everything else.
>>> After all, the reason you executed it, was to use it.
>>>
>>> For the last 20 years the convention has been that when an
>>> application is executed, its window appears on the top of
>>> the stack.  This shouldn't change.
>>>
>> Yes, it really should change. Forcing people to do things in a less 
>> than productive way for a long time doesn't make it right or better! 
>> Think of your computer as your personal assistant: tell it to go do 
>> something; when _you_ are ready respond to the results (app) that it 
>> has created, you change the focus yourself using Alt-Tab (or the 
>> mouse if you want to do it the slow way).
>>
>>> And if you started an app to use it later, then its your responsibility
>>> to push it down the stack wherever _you_ want.
>>>
>> No, I'm doing work involving multiple apps (even maybe testing FC). I 
>> need to gedit  a log file, open bugzilla in a browser, and do a dir 
>> list. While these separate apps are starting up, I re-started the app 
>> again from the menu etc / blah.
>>
>>> ...
>>> And finally, to have special code in a terminal emulator that is trying
>>> to second guess what to do based on the timing of typing is ridiculous.
>>>
>> I agree it's not worth changing the default behaviour for terminals 
>> because the new way is better.
>>
>>>> Try using internet explorer
>>>> while working in word, and see how distracting it is.
>>>>
>>> I'm not to sure I understand what your compalining about.
>>> When I use 'word' its on top, and has focus, any painting IE does,
>>> or any other app for that matter, happens underneath.  (BTW I always
>>> use overlapping windows, not full screen windows.)
>>>
>> What about a web site that waits a bit then pops up another window, 
>> right over the top of where you are typing in oowriter. Another great 
>> reason for focus to stay on what you are working on. You'll get to 
>> those other apps when _you_ are ready for them, not when it 
>> eventually finishes loading. You are the master; the computer is 
>> _your_ slave :)
>>
>>>> I have really become accustomed to indicating with my mouse onto which
>>>> window I want in front, and into which window I'd like to type.
>>>>
>>> Agreed, but thats once everything has started.
>>>
>> Alt-Tab has been around a long time for switching to next window 
>> (which in this case turns out to be the one you are yet to click on 
>> and pre started).
>> If I have an email with some pages of text, and a link or attachment, 
>> I would prefer to click on the attachment, causing it to preload 
>> while I continue to read the rest of the email. When I finish reading 
>> the mail, I alt-tab to the created window. This is a time saving way 
>> to work. I get enough interuptions all day without the computer 
>> interupting me!
>>
>>> ... snip ...
>>>
>>> Hopefully, this is 'start under' broken behavious a only a gnome thing,
>>> and KDE doesn't turn its back on 20 years of standards
>>>
>> Hopefully, this much better behaviour becomes standard soon, and on 
>> all operating systems.
>> DaveT.
>>
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>