OT: GNOME a Linux-only project ? systemd a dependency of GNOME 3 ?
jb.1234abcd at gmail.com
Mon May 23 06:26:04 UTC 2011
JB <jb.1234abcd <at> gmail.com> writes:
- systemd as an external dependency for GNOME 3 (GNOME-Shell)
systemd has Linux as a dependency and won't be ported to other OSs (which
would be a very difficult undertaking anyway due to its Linux-specific
nature). This would effectively make GNOME a Linux-specific desktop
systemd itself has very minimal external dependencies - you need Linux,
udev, D-Bus, and that's it (there are a couple of additional optional
- GNOME to become Linux-only
As a result of systemd dependence: GNOME-Shell requires systemd which
But, GNOME could elect to become Linux-only without systemd-dependence as
So, why GNOME/systemd formal dependence ? Who needs it ?
As a result of it:
- GNOME would drop support for other OSs such as Solaris and the BSDs
- Debian also has versions using the FreeBSD or HURD kernel, and on these
versions, GNOME would no longer be able to run.
Comments (summary, extracts):
- GNOME devs are split over it; dropping support for long-term partners
(Oracle/Sun) and other OSs is an issue
- the meaning of it ?
by darknexus on Thu 19th May 2011 21:16 UTC in reply to "Please correct if
"Doesn't this mean that in order to run Gnome, one must use systemd?
What if people want to use sysvinit, initng, upstart, runit, or eINIT...?"
I doubt most users care which init system they're running. The real question
is what if most distros don't want to switch to using systemd, as it provides
no real benefits over some of the other init systems out there and would
require all packages' init scripts to be rewritten?
GNOME should go linux-only, imho, but it should not depend on systemd. Not
everyone wants to reinvent the wheel like Poettering seems to enjoy doing.
If he wants to integrate systemd support into GNOME, great. If the Ubuntu
devs wish to integrate upstart support into GNOME, that's awesome. If Debian
wants to integrate sysvinit support, more power to them. Forcing a hard
dependency of systemd is probably one of the worst ideas I've heard... but,
then again, most of GNOME 3 seems to be one huge bad idea. To those who
think forcing systemd on everyone is a good idea, remember what happened
when GNOME started depending on Pulseaudio and just how well that's turned
jessesmith Member since: 2010-03-11
I think the above comment has it pretty much spot on. This isn't just
saying, "Screw other operating systems", it's also saying, "Screw Linux
distributions that don't use systemd." That could be a problem for
Debian/Ubuntu/Slackware (I think) and other distros that use other init
Soulbender Member since: 2005-08-18
Oh come on, it's all acceptable sacrifices in order to increase RedHat's
- Common Standards ?
by Brendan on Thu 19th May 2011 21:43 UTC
There's too many different "Unix-like" OSs and not enough common standards
between them; which makes it hard for GUI projects to support all
"Unix-like" OSs properly.
There's too many different GUIs and not enough common standards between
them; which makes it hard for "Unix-like" OSs to support all GUI projects
Obviously, GUI projects should abandon support for different OSs; and OSs
should abandon support for different GUI projects. Any suggestion that
common standards could've prevented both these issues would just be silly.
- so what is the role of freedesktop.org and its standards ?
... projects working on interoperability and shared technology for X Window
... building a base platform for desktop software on Linux and UNIX.
- I worry about Linux ecosystem being pulled away from UNIX-like heritage:
- systemd is perceived as non UNIX-like, very alien
- FreeBSD stays true to its heritage
An example of a UNIX philosophy at work - scriptable, modular, extendable.
- GNOME 3 dropping its support for classic desktop "look at feel" (as in
GNOME 2) already alienated many tech users, not to mention business users
who are even more conservative - there is a good chance there will be
a considerable migration to other DEs
- GNOME dev missteps
by lewkor on Thu 19th May 2011 21:34 UTC in reply to "Sad but inevitable"
"Well, its the direction GNOME has been going anyway!!! Let them!!!
You hit the nail on the head when you said that they have been taking GNOME
in the same direction as Windows. If a project insists on implementing
the very worst methodologies in the history of computing then maybe that
project does not deserve to exist!!!
Here are some examples of abandoning traditional UNIX/Linux methods in
favour of more Windowsy methods.
They use gconf rather than text formats. What's wrong with that you ask?
When the variables in gconf duplicate those values in OS files then it is
a problem. Didn't you guys pay attention in your first week of DB theory
that whenever values are duplicated that they will always get out of sync.
Where I ran into this was when I added users as root using useradd rather
than the GNOME utilities. The result was that gdm didn't know about the new
users and the new users could't login to gdm.
What is the most retarded thing about Windows? The friggin registry!!! Just
go back to windows!!! Leave my UNIX/Linux alone you morons!!!
Another thing about the GNOME community is the way they can't friggin wait
to get MS tech into Linux and thereby fall into the trap that is being set
by MS. I'm of course referring to Mono and C#. Again, if you friggin want
windows you know where to go!
I'm finished my rant now!!!
After that rant I can't see it happening anyway. If it isn't cross platform
then the BSD guys will adopt KDE (Yeah!!!). Can you see Oracle putting KDE
on Solaris and GNOME on Oracle Linux? Wouldn't they want a unified desktop
for both systems? Combined with the abortion that GNOME 3 is turning out to
be they would either stick with version 2 or fork the project. Hopefully
that would kill it - the sooner the better!"
by twitterfire on Fri 20th May 2011 20:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Sad but
"You bark in vain. The reason Gnome devs borrowed strongly from MS is
because they have seen more value in things borrowed than in "traditional
UNIX/Linux methods". If you think Windows registry is lame, than you must
acknowledge than keeping settings in flat text files spread all over
the file system is medieval and dumb.
And yes, C# is better for general use than Python and Bash scripting will
- is it really so that systemd will be the de facto replacement for the classic
SysV-Init system and service management system ? It will be introduced in
an experimental distro Fedora 15 first time, and tested, so all is still
Will we not see improvements from others like Upstart, or even entirely new
* Service Management Facility
* GoboLinux#Boot system
So, why GNOME's dependence on systemd ? Who needs it ?
- what about other DEs like KDE, Xfce, LXDE ? Are they supposed to be
dependent on systemd as well ?
- remember that GNOME is not only a DE, but also a platform for application
devs. Is Linux-only GNOME going to be better off in that group ?
- time to add Xfce and LXDE to official QA release criteria in Fedora
Note: I am worried about these DEs having GNOME packages dependencies.
- time to switch away from GNOME to other DEs, in particular if you take care
of a mixed OS environment (Linux, Solaris, BSDs) ?
But, apparently it is not GNOME only problem, ...
"The point is, it pulls in so much crap from Linux-land that it might as
well be Linux only. It might be "cross-platform" now, but only because other
people took the time to port it and it's dependencies. It's not like
the GNOME team designed it to work across multiple platforms.
For proof of it's Linuxness, look at what happened when Xfce moved from
Thunar VFS to the GVFS. Xfce lost BSD support, and now people are trying to
port all the crap that GVFS needs to work. That's not cross-platform. If it
was cross-platform, Xfce 4.8 would run on the BSDs out of the box, and
people wouldn't have to waste time porting redundant junk.
"Really quite a dilemma for me, even without this latest discussion. I've
been using Linux since 1994. Currently, I don't like Gnome 3 or Unity. My
experience with KDE 4 has been bad, even just a month ago with Fedora.
Basically, it looks like I'm going have to try out some of the other DE's.
It really seems like users are taking a beating these days. First they
decide we don't need menus anymore. Then, the conventional taskbar/start
menu is no good. It really seems like change for change's sake.
- the finale
"Dude, ... Let gnome guys do whatever they want and stop trolling please".
Methinks ... geeks have too many itches ... and aversion to thinking ...
All the best to you ... from UNIX generation :-)
Genesis - Land of Confusion
More information about the test