will F18 allow simultaneous installation of more than one desktop?

[David Lehman]

On Mon, 2012-07-09 at 11:23 -0600, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-07-09 at 11:52 -0500, David Lehman wrote:
> > > Exactly what is so bad with "that practice" (of installing both desktops) as to "frown upon it"?
> > > 
> > > I am a KDE user and yet I still install Gnome on my machine. Exactly what crime do I commit?
> > 
> > Only being unwilling to choose a camp. Not even a crime, really.
> 
> And choosing a camp is good? Not choosing a camp or deciding to remain
> flexible is bad? Not really.

I didn't say flexible is bad. What I am saying is that flexible is
_hard_ (for those of us doing the work). Hard is not necessarily bad,
either, but at some point one must begin to choose one's battles.

> 
> > > >> If it's not possible to have more than one desktop installed, it makes changing
> > > >> desktops much harder (clean install?) and someone who doesn't like Gnome Shell,
> > > >> for example, may well decide to change distros rather than try a different
> > > >> desktop. Personally, I use Gnome, but install KDE just to have the KDE packages
> > > >> available while using Gnome. Would this become impossible?
> > > >
> > > > I dont think this argument holds much water.
> > > 
> > > I am another _real_ data point showing that Fedora users actually do that (that = install both 
> > > desktops to have access to packages from both of them).
> > 
> > There are plenty of very vocal minority groups here.
> 
> Please show researched statistics to support your claim and implication
> that this is a minority group. I question and doubt you actually have
> statistics on any of these groups.

Too busy trying to actually do work, but thanks for offering to help.

> 
> > > > Novice end users would be more likely to download an alternative ( encase of an live cd/usb ) from
> > > > the same distribution and try it out since they are already familiar with the the process of
> > > > downloading and ( or re)installing the OS and experience users that want to run multiple DE's can
> > > > already install another one once they have successfully finished installing the distribution.
> > > 
> > > This is once again an imaginary, or made-up user, so that you can support your arguments and ignore 
> > > real Fedora users. How is it that this practice of making up users to support cases for writing 
> > > software for idiots has spread so much lately? Write software for your users and not imaginary 
> > > "idiots", please!
> > 
> > I can tell you from personal experience that Fedora has both real and
> > imaginary idiots. Just kidding. We have two opposing groups of users:
> > Those who think the installer should have a knob for whatever their
> > obscure pet option is, and those who believe it should be a
> > highly-polished, streamlined interface along the lines of MacOS. These
> > are fundamentally in opposition and it is impossible to please both
> > camps entirely.
> 
> ...Wow - Talk about spin. Only something that's highly polished and
> streamlined like MacOS...?

I don't have time to sit with you all day picking the fly shit out of
the pepper. You should stop making assumptions and take a look at the UI
before continuing to try and dictate its design from afar.

> 
> Simple is not a requirement for highly polished, and neither simple nor
> streamlined should prevent flexibility in options. Besides, if you
> really want to emulate MacOS like that, why not just go buy a Mac?
> 
> I would submit there is a group who wants something highly polished,
> with flexibility and the ability to easily control finer points of the
> process along the way. None of these traits necessarily precludes the
> others. Is that really too much to ask for?

No, of course not. We'll attain UI perfection while simultaneously
arguing with you about it. Have you even looked at the UI we're working
on? Read the blog posts about what we're doing?

Just because I failed to spoonfeed you the entire essence of several
man-years of work in a short email doesn't mean you're ahead of the game
here.

> 
> > > "Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof 
> > > programs, and the universe which strives to produce bigger idiots. So far the Universe is winning."
> > > 
> > > Do you really strive to produce more and better idiots?
> > 
> > We strive to provide an environment in which the idiots can play in
> > relative safety (the graphical installer) while also offering an
> > alternative environment for the geniuses to do whatever crazy thing they
> > think they need to do (kickstart).
> 
> ...This is evidence of another misconception and misguided strategy
> (albeit an honest one): We need to save the novice users from
> themselves, while letting "geniuses" hack kickstart files. This is
> pitting one extreme vs. another in a situation where neither is
> realistically encountered. Just because I might be a genius doesn't mean
> I should be required to hack kickstart files (although the choice to do
> so should remain available at my own risk).
> 
> Why not instead have a good set of defaults in the installer, with a
> "Don't try this at home unless you're a professional" button to open up
> options for those who choose to do so, and then highly polish the whole
> thing. Is that just too much to ask despite that reasonably good
> versions of such have been successfully accomplished in the past?

Who said we wouldn't be using sane defaults and providing _some_ level
of opt-in advanced capability? Nobody.

> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> -- 
> Christopher A. Williams <chriswfedora at cawllc.com>
>