Annoucement: New translation status page is installed

Youcef Rabah Rahal rahal at
Thu Jun 24 10:04:43 UTC 2004

Hash: SHA1

On Thursday 24 June 2004 06:21, Bernd Groh wrote:

> Being a coordinator isn't about having control, or is it now? ;)

It depends how you define 'control' :-). I define it as keeping consistency, 
avoiding conflicts, sharing the tasks.

> Well, it arrived there, because this person clicked on [Take], and no,
> it is not a bug. :)

Yeah, I suppose so. In the very short (?) moment between the system was 
installed and the email was sent to the list. If you consider the human 
factor though, it seems like it's a bug. In other words, a team is already 
translating the same file -> conflict/bug.

> Given that he has taken a module, I'd say he *is* participating. And as
> Behdad said, PO-Headers aren't all conclusive, but even if that person
> had never done any translations before, why say he can't? What is wrong
> with somebody wanting to participate?

Nothing wrong about that at all. If there are many 'inorganized' (not meant to 
be pejorative :-) people working on a language then it's OK. However, if 
there's a team already in place (with mailing lists, with CVS, etc on their 
own) , new comers should join it, for the reasons I said above: consistency, 

Actually, many (if not all) projects consider this 'human factor' :-) The ones 
we're contributing to at least. So Fedora now is becoming an exception to the 
rule, but I have yet to understand the reasons ;)

> You won't be able to commit dist (or specspo), but you can commit
> everything else. Have you already translated dist? If so, let Sherif
> know, and ask him to release the module, I'm sure he'd be helpful. If
> you chose not to do so, I am not going to help you. I am not going to
> kick him off, just because you don't know him, as I've stated previously.

I'm not interested in committing other files, since.... we *finished* them. 
The only file which has untranslated/fuzzy strings is now dist.po and I'm not 
able to update it :-)

I'll contact him, no problem. But not considering the 'human factor' sounds to 
me dangerous as it will tend to alienate constant contributors simply because 
someone came and filled a blank field.

Again, I don't know Sherif, he's probably a very nice and dedicated person 
(well, in short, I don't know him ;). My issue is not with him personally. 
Again, it's about considering the 'human factor' (sorry, I don't know how 
many times I said this word in this email ;)

> You did all of the commits, but I assume not all of the translations,
> or? 

Never said the contrary. I did the commits on behalf of a team, and their 
names are in the headers. I did only a small percentage :-)

When I say 'I', you can substitute it by 'we' or 'the team'...

> So why do you believe you have the right to say that Sherif cannot 
> do any Arabic translations?

Never said that. I'm saying that newcomers should be directed to a team in 
case there's one already in place. Very different. Why ? For the reasons I 
stated above.

> Why don't you, even after I told you you 
> should, send him an email, but instead tell me that him translating the
> module is a 'bug' and I should fix it?

As I said above, I'll do.

> It is not a bug, he's an Arabic 
> translator, just like you. He might not have known there is a very
> active Arabic group, he might not even be subscribed to this mailing
> list, so, why not email him and ask him to participate in your group?


> IMO, that's what a coordinator should do.

On a side note, responsibles of the Fedora l10n/i18n should also be aware of 
the teams involved in translation IMHO.

> On a side note, do you believe 
> the other arabic translators get enough credit?

Yes. At least, their names are in the PO headers, and as far as I can tell no 
one asked more than that. Again, when you read 'I' please understand 'the 
team' :-) Sorry if I gave the impression that I was trying to credit myself 
individually. I'm the coordinator of the translation and I'm concerned by the 
fact that every contributor gets credited for their hard work.

> So? Does that mean you decide on who is allowed to contribute to the
> Arabic translations and who isn't?

I don't remember a single time when we said to someone don't translate. On the 
contrary, we're in dire need for translators ;) And the Fedora page on 
Arabeyes states it clearly in bold characters:

What I think though, is that if there's a team in place, there's a need to 
place new comers in harmony among the team, for the reasons stated above.

> I didn't know you were the Arabic coordinator,  neither it seems like
> Sherif or Behdad knew, who happen to speak Arabic. And if Behdad would
> chose to take a module and participate, I believe that he should be able
> to. Or would you disagree?

Well now you know ;) As for Sherif, how could he know if he came on the status 
page by accident when you had just implemented the new system ? Of course he 
couldn't know. But now we're back to the human factor. ie, *you* know that 
I'm the coordinator. As for Behdad, I guess he's more interested by 
Persian ;) Of course, he is more then welcome if he wants to participate in 
the Arabic translation :))

> We can confirm that you have been very involved in the project, and we
> may chose to make you the maintainer for Arabic.

Thank you.

> But if we'd to hear 
> that you won't let other Arabic translators participate, because you
> don't know them, we may chose other people as maintainers.

Did I ever said that ? :-) Again, We're in need of translators. Yet we have to 
respect consistency. It's about the framework, not about the persons.

> Coordination 
> is not about excercising control of who is doing what and how, it is
> about coordinating the efforts of everyone who is willing to
> participate.

Agreed (yet the coordinator is also responsible for QA and such).

> If you're not even willing to send Sherif an email, but ask 
> me to 'remove' him, really, I don't know whether that's what is meant by
> being a coordinator.

Again, will do. But considering the 'human factor', when I sent my first email 
to this list concerning this topic, I was far from thinking that it would 
generate all this traffic. I thought it was a 1-sec fix. Obviously, I was 

> On a last note, if you'd want to argue that I excercise some level of
> control, it's true, and I use it to make sure as best as I can that
> everyone who wants to participate can.

Agreed. I just would like to stress one last time on the ... 'human factor', 
'human factor', 'human factor', 'human factor',  ;-)) You have to exercice 
some control. Right. But you have to be aware of the translation teams in 
place too.


- -- 
Youcef R. Rahal
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